G1 Belmont Stakes

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Many will say "What an odd field?". They'd be wrong.

The Belmont Stakes has often seen a much different field than the other 2 crowns, and has been the site of some significant and ridiculous upsets.

12Fs. This WILL be the only time these colts will ever run this distance competitively.

As post position doesn't really matter much, I'll roll through them:

Brody's Cause: Only horse in the field to beat Exaggerator. Not only once, but twice. Unfortunately, this one hasn't progressed much as a 3YO. Is this his time to shine? At very likely huge odds, I would not dismiss his chances to seriously improve in here.

Cherry Wine: Ran huge in the Preakness with a perfect trip. Belmont isn't about a perfect trip other than getting the distance. A huge play against for me.

Creator: Beat my Kentucky Derby play in the Arkansas Derby, and then ran into a decent amount of trouble in the actual Derby. The change to Irad Ortiz can't be overlooked. A talented and deep closer, that I'm not sure wants all of 12 panels.

Destin: That really wasn't a bad 6th in the Kentucky Derby. Then again, it wasn't anything special either. Trouble early, even throughout. Would have at least liked some kind of move. Will need to be on the front end if he has any chance. And 12Fs in nowhere near in his house.

Exaggerator: Favorite. Should be. He has been getting better each and every race as a 3YO. He has also been sound. An obvious favorite, and the one to beat.

Forever d'Oro: Love the breeding to get the distance. Will likely run on forever. Reality is, can he run with these now? Weird things happen, but this would be really weird.

Gettysburg: Shady entry. Has fallen well short of many in here, and distance is a joke. Da' Tara is asking questions.

Governor Malibu: Already seeing smart money on this guy. I'll take a huge pass as he hasn't beat anybody to date worth worrying about. Luv Gov is calling.

Lani: Not sure what to do. I had a huge Exagerrator/Lani Exacta in the Preakness. He ran on well to finish 5th, but could have easily ran 2nd. Connections, and the horse, really don't care what else is going on around them. They'll do their thing. I'm still confused.

Seeking The Soul: Not sure how this horse isn't already on turf. Somehow a crappy Maiden win in a crappy time can land you here.

Stradivari: I'll admit. I didn't see him having a chance in the Preakness. He ran very very well amid a really crappy trip. Johnny V stays on board, and a more sustained ride could well be what this one really needs.

Suddenbreakingnews: OK. This was my Kentucky Derby wager to WP. Yeah, he didn't hit the board. However, my Kentucky Derby wagers have done very very well in the Belmont over the years. Who do you ask? Palace Malice, Summer Bird, Jazil, and Afleet Alex for instance. Not sure this one is like those. And I'd be very surprised if he gets it done.

Trojan Nation: Still a Maiden. Ran like crap in the Derby, will run like crap here.

Well, those are my thoughts on Tuesday.

[clocker7]

Can Lani run in Tokyo in February, go to Dubai, ship to CD and Pim, and then have anything left in the stretch drive at 12f at another different track?

Might be a wonder horse .... but would bet against it.

[RXB]

My initial impressions from looking at the early PP's:

1. A lot of backrunners are entered compared to tactical speed horses. And there isn't a single gate-to-wire win for any of the entrants.

2. Exaggerator pretty much stands out in terms of proven class. He also should be able to get whatever forward positioning Desormeaux wants without any undue difficulty or effort, even though he's been near the back at the beginning of his recent races.

3. Pletcher's twosome of Destin and Stradivari both have some early lick which should be beneficial and are probably second and third in terms of proven ability to this point. Of course, they could very well be the second and third betting choices.

[RXB]

Destin: That really wasn't a bad 6th in the Kentucky Derby. Then again, it wasn't anything special either. Trouble early, even throughout. Would have at least liked some kind of move. Will need to be on the front end if he has any chance. And 12Fs in nowhere near in his house.
[b]


Sired by Giant's Causeway and the dam routed as often as she sprinted so I don't see why 12f should be particularly a problem for this horse any more than most of the others in the field.

[f2tornado]

I'm liking SBN here. The horse finally gets a genuine rider in Smith who also happens to clean house in the Belmont Stakes with a 5:2-1-1 record in recent years. The only one he missed the board with was the greatly overmatched Frammento last year. If Smith can keep this horse a little closer to the front then it might have the most leg down the stretch. SBN only fits a couple of my Belmont angles but will be one I key in the trifecta.

[ronsmac]

Can Lani run in Tokyo in February, go to Dubai, ship to CD and Pim, and then have anything left in the stretch drive at 12f at another different track?

Might be a wonder horse .... but would bet against it.A wonder horse? Lol

[RXB]

Entries are in, posts are drawn. Gettysburg has been entered (he wasn't on the early list in the TFUS PP's that I was looking at) and I guess he's the likeliest frontrunner, seems to be nothing more than a Winstar rabbit.

[Andrick]

Well, nobody has ever said I was smart. Just the opposite probably. But I landed on Governor Malibu myself. And just to reinforce that I`m the opposite of smart, I may have talked myself into using Forever d`Oro as well. The latter is more of a case of me not being enamoured with the other entries besides Governor Malibu for various reasons, so I might as well go with a big price that has a few things to like about him (pedigree, win over track, jockey, etc).

[Robert Fischer]

Brody's Cause: Fundamentally sound warrior. Better horse and better odds than Cherry Wine. I'm not a big fan, but he could bull his way into a board spot.

Creator: More talent than Brody's Cause. This is a good animal. Seems to really need the race to come to him.

Destin: Would need a dream trip to beat Exaggerator at anything. Why are racing fans/pundits/figuremakers trying to say that the Tampa and SamFDavis were anything other than a Grade2/3 type of race again?? That's where all this 'Destin is Fast!' crap comes from.
Still, he's good enough to belong in the race, and has the right style.

Exaggerator: Should be right there. Highest % horse in the field. Probably over-bet.

Cherry Wine: If you consider yourself a trip handicapper, you are probably tossing this horse out of even deeper vertical exotics.

Governor Malibu: Solid horse. Doesn't seem very flashy.

Stradivari: The upset hope. He could run a big race, he could be a non-factor. 'Potential' and a respectable Preakness effort make this one interesting. Good style for this race.

Suddenbreakingnews: He already looks like a hard-hitting handicap horse when he runs down the stretch. Nice to get to see him run in a big race again.

[Valuist]

Composite odds of UK bookmakers from Oddschecker:

Exaggerator 7/5
Suddenbreakingnews 11/2
Stradivari 7/1
Cherry Wine 9/1
Brody's Cause 10/1
Destin 10/1
Lani 12/1
Creator 15/1
Governor Malibu 15/1
Forever D'oro, Trojan Nation, Gettysburg & Seeking the Soul between 33-1 and
50-1

[ebcorde]

big field he'll go off 9-5. I don't see any others, Maybe Lani, Destin, the violin Horse for 2nd. but why take a chance on an exacta.

the big question for me is Gettysburg? does not belong.

Exx was my derby pick , and my future Breeder's cup pick. He ran the SA derby same way his dad ran the breeder's cup.

[Robert Fischer]

the big question for me is Gettysburg? does not belong.


Steve Asmussen will have Gettysburg ensuring an honest pace for Win Star Farms' top 3yo Creator to close into.

[CoxHub]

Check out this Belmont Stakes Podcast (http://www.coxhub.com/articles/belmont-stakes-2016-welcomes-newcomers-and-familar-faces)

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Steve Asmussen will have Gettysburg ensuring an honest pace for Win Star Farms' top 3yo Creator to close into.

They also have a breeding interest in Exaggerator since they own his breeding rights.

[Valuist]

Can Lani run in Tokyo in February, go to Dubai, ship to CD and Pim, and then have anything left in the stretch drive at 12f at another different track?

Might be a wonder horse .... but would bet against it.

I'm kind of intrigued by Lani. Arguably the best bred horse in the field; the dam won a grade 1 at 10 furlongs beating the top male horses in Japan. For her career, the dam (Heavenly Romance) won over $3.5 million. That Grade 1 win was as a 5 year old so maybe this one hasn't hit his ceiling yet.

A bloodlines box would be Lani/Forever d'Oro/Governor Malibu/Stradivari.

[Valuist]

Maybe replace Stradivari with stablemate Destin in that box. Dream of Summer was a multiple Grade 2 winner on dirt. Bending Strings, dam of Stradivari also a graded SW but between 6 furlongs and a mile.

[Michael]

Rather lose then back Exaggerator on top, even though he's head and shoulders. The context of the race gives me hope.

Only value bets I came up with are: Suddenbreakingnews and Lani

Destin looks fine at 6/1 but at that point I'd rather back SBN if I can get around 7/1. The 20/1 on Lani just seems way off. I'll be happy at 8/1.

Don't like Brody at all. Just feels like betting a gut shot straight draw on the turn.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Rather lose then back Exaggerator on top, even though he's head and shoulders. The context of the race gives me hope.

Only value bets I came up with are: Suddenbreakingnews and Lani

Destin looks fine at 6/1 but at that point I'd rather back SBN if I can get around 7/1. The 20/1 on Lani just seems way off. I'll be happy at 8/1.

Don't like Brody at all. Just feels like betting a gut shot straight draw on the turn.

Very good comparison for Brody.

[raybo]

Traditionally, the mile and a half Belmont favors front-end runners (< 4-5 lengths or so) that also have something late. Find that, get decent odds, and you're good to go. Many think the Belmont favors the late types, but I find that most of those are usually too tired to make that long run down the stretch and pass horses at the front. Give me a horse who can stay close early, and finish strong.

[Hoops McCann]

Lani
Governor Malibu
Suddenbreakingnews

[PaceMasterT]

Well, nobody has ever said I was smart. Just the opposite probably. But I landed on Governor Malibu myself. And just to reinforce that I`m the opposite of smart, I may have talked myself into using Forever d`Oro as well. The latter is more of a case of me not being enamoured with the other entries besides Governor Malibu for various reasons, so I might as well go with a big price that has a few things to like about him (pedigree, win over track, jockey, etc).

I'm with you and fell on Governor Malibu for my long odds horse. I thought there was something a little weird about his start in the Peter Pan and I really liked the way he finished that race. He should be able to get himself into a good position 3rd or 4th without expending too much energy and from there it is only a question of getting the distance.

That being said, if Exaggerator is on point he looks tough to beat regardless of pace scenario. Am I crazy, or does it seem that Exaggerator has a huge "class" advantage over the rest of these?

[Redboard]

I'm with you and fell on Governor Malibu for my long odds horse. I thought there was something a little weird about his start in the Peter Pan and I really liked the way he finished that race. He should be able to get himself into a good position 3rd or 4th without expending too much energy and from there it is only a question of getting the distance.

That being said, if Exaggerator is on point he looks tough to beat regardless of pace scenario. Am I crazy, or does it seem that Exaggerator has a huge "class" advantage over the rest of these?

I wouldn't say "class" advantage; I'd say "speed figure" advantage. Most(not all) here have been running in graded stakes races.

[Parkview_Pirate]

...Only value bets I came up with are: Suddenbreakingnews and Lani

Destin looks fine at 6/1 but at that point I'd rather back SBN if I can get around 7/1. The 20/1 on Lani just seems way off. I'll be happy at 8/1.

FWIW, your two value bets are big underlays IMHO, based on early wagering.

With $220,407 in early wagering (from BelmontStakes.com) as of 7:59 AM EDT, the morning line, current odds, and my take on the value:

# 1 Governor Malibu (12-1, 15-1) about right
# 2 Destin (6-1, 14-1) nice overlay
# 3 Cherry Wine (8-1, 7-1) underlay
# 4 Suddenbreakingnews (10-1, 9-2) big underlay
# 5 Stradivari (5-1, 11-1) about right
# 6 Gettysburg (30-1, 61-1) about right
# 7 Seeking The Soul (30-1, 75-1) about right
# 8 Forever D'oro (30-1, 94-1) about right
# 9 Trojan Nation (30-1, 71-1) overlay
# 10 Lani (20-1, 11-1) big underlay
# 11 Exaggerator (9-5, 1-1) slight underlay
# 12 Brody's Cause (20-1, 23-1) about right
# 13 Creator (10-1, 19-1) nice overlay

Not sure who I like to win, but I for some reason I like the maiden :9: to be part of the super.....

Good luck to all today.....

[PoloUK6108]

Rather lose then back Exaggerator on top, even though he's head and shoulders. The context of the race gives me hope.

Only value bets I came up with are: Suddenbreakingnews and Lani

Destin looks fine at 6/1 but at that point I'd rather back SBN if I can get around 7/1. The 20/1 on Lani just seems way off. I'll be happy at 8/1.

Don't like Brody at all. Just feels like betting a gut shot straight draw on the turn.

I like a Lani, SBN, Stradavari ex box

SBN/ Lani, Exagg, Stradivari/ Lani, Exagg, Stradavari, Brody, Creator for Tri/Sup

[fiznow]

I really like Governor Malibu at these odds. Worth a bet in any case...;)

[PaceMasterT]

I really like Governor Malibu at these odds. Worth a bet in any case...;)

Fish Trappe Road's performance in the Woody Stephens definitely another positive to add in Governor Malibu's column.



Edit: Oh and Rosario is on fire today.

[Michael]

@ Parkview_Pirate

that's why I wrote my odds line. To articulate for me when horses like SBN is below my acceptable odds. Thus, my overlays would be destin & Lani

[Michael]

I like a Lani, SBN, Stradavari ex box

SBN/ Lani, Exagg, Stradivari/ Lani, Exagg, Stradavari, Brody, Creator for Tri/Sup

Stradivari was the 1 horse I left off that can certainly crash the party. I like where your mind is at :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

With regard to Lani....I thought this was a wise guy horse in the Derby..I thought it was a contender for minor awards in the Preakness.
I think his plodder style does not suit hm well in this field because there is little for Lani or any other of the back markers to close into.
TLG was interviewed today on Down The Stretch with Dave Johnson and Bill Finley. TLG made a good funny...He said he'd include Lani in his bets if there was an "Octafecta"..... :lol:

[thespaah]

I posted in another thread that i think its best to find the stalkers in here and bet those.

[098poi]

Although I haven't picked a thing today (and haven't wagered either) I still have a pick in the Belmont! I like :2: Destin. I'm not going to fund my account just for this and I won't mind regretting it if he wins (or places)

Safe trip everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thespaah]

With 30 mins to post....
The lowest exacta probable using the :11: in the first slot is $30 with the :4: and :5:
:11: :2: is $39 and :11: :3: is $31...
Pretty good value for a favorite on top...

[thespaah]

laffit Pincay III just talked to Pletcher. Says he thinks Destin :2: has trained well up to this race and that the horse had broken his maiden at Bel.....
Hmmmm.
11-1....might be worth a few scheckels and pesos....

[Relwob Owner]

Hard to trust Kent D here, especially at this price. I like the 1 and the 2 at their respective prices. Good luck to all!

[098poi]

Although I haven't picked a thing today (and haven't wagered either) I still have a pick in the Belmont! I like :2: Destin. I'm not going to fund my account just for this and I won't mind regretting it if he wins (or places)

Safe trip everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow tight there. It's a good thing I didn't bet because I almost had a heart attack with nothing on him. Imagine if I had some money down.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Heartbreaker for me. Destin was my "second" choice and my value bet (posted on my web site and here) so my win money went down the tubes, BUT thanks to an exacta box with my other choices (Creator and Lani) things turned out pretty good. Irad looked like he was not going to get room in the stretch and all of a sudden a hole opened up and he dove through. Another second or two and he might not have caught Destin.

Where the crowd surprised me was Suddenbreakingnews. I thought he was a backholer, but I never expected them to put him at 5-1.

If I had the inspiration and the nuts I would have boxed 2,10,13 in the tri.

[Longshot6977]

Steve Asmussen will have Gettysburg ensuring an honest pace for Win Star Farms' top 3yo Creator to close into.

Best accurate comment in this thread.

[Tom]

Good plan. :ThmbUp:

I bet Steve got an estimate on his next haircut and figured this was the only way he could cover it! :rolleyes: :D

[nijinski]

Good plan. :ThmbUp:

I bet Steve got an estimate on his next haircut and figured this was the only way he could cover it! :rolleyes: :D

I've heard rumors that the grew his hair long during his wife's medical treatments . So there could be some significant meaning to him .
Looks like things are looking good for both of them.

[tanner12oz]

I dont think it looks bad. He's a standup guy. Bumped into him walking around the apron ga area at the BC last year.

[Racey]

looked loaded altered course tried the rail got stopped cold.......still ran 4th

[rastajenk]

Yeah, that was disappointing.

My initial feeling is that that was one of the more forgettable renditions of that race. Even with, or in spite of, a head-bob finish. For me the only moment came as they rounded the turn very bunched up for a race of that distance, and there were hundreds of live possibilities with a long way to go. But in the end, it was just another race that I took a deep but cheap poke at, and came up empty. There have been lots of forgettable Belmonts; I think this one gets thrown on the pile.

[classhandicapper]

I don't think this Belmont is going to turn out to be an especially strong edition. Not to take anything away from the winner, but I think Destin was probably best and I don't think he's anything special. He put away a few horses before getting caught very late. I'm not a huge fan of either Lani or Governor Malibu as far as being leaders of the division goes. Exaggerator either got exposed as needing some combination of a wet track and/or good pace setup or was just off his game. Stradiveri didn't want the 12F. Cherry Wine proved he more or less sucked up last time. Much of the rest of the field was kind of weak.

[magwell]

My thoughts after the race was if Lani ran on lasix he probably wins it, I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).......:D

[PaceMasterT]

looked loaded altered course tried the rail got stopped cold.......still ran 4th

Yeah, I had all my money on him. Don't know if he could have won, but at least would have broke even with my show bet.

[PaceMasterT]

Yeah, that was disappointing.

My initial feeling is that that was one of the more forgettable renditions of that race. Even with, or in spite of, a head-bob finish. For me the only moment came as they rounded the turn very bunched up for a race of that distance, and there were hundreds of live possibilities with a long way to go. But in the end, it was just another race that I took a deep but cheap poke at, and came up empty. There have been lots of forgettable Belmonts; I think this one gets thrown on the pile.

I don't look at it quite so negatively. Still a very good race. I think there were so many great performances before this race that a fairly average running of this race seemed to pale in comparison.

As an example, Fish Trappe Road's performance coming in second seemed way better than the winner's performance in the Belmont Stakes.

[Robert Fischer]

Race was an 'A+' for entertainment
'B' for Performance



2 nice 'B' horses got good trips, and fired.
Destin had a great positional trip while slightly hurt by the pace.
Creator got a great ride, but had to flow through traffic and make a big finish.

Exaggerator got a stressful trip and didn't fire. Nyquist was sipping Piña coladas.

[depalma113]

Yeah, I had all my money on him. Don't know if he could have won, but at least would have broke even with my show bet.

Not a single word has been mentioned about the winner's teammate making sure at least one horse was not going to beat Creator and it had nothing to do with the pace.

NASCAR driving has entered horse racing.

Not that I'm complaining, because I had the tri and I wouldn't have had it if Gov gets third, but there really should be an investigation into that.

[depalma113]

2 nice 'B' horses got good trips, and fired.
Destin had a great positional trip while slightly hurt by the pace.
Creator got a great ride, but had to flow through traffic and make a big finish.


Destin is not a 'B' horse, he has 'F' owners.

Had they raced their horse in the Blue Grass or Wood, he would have been a big factor in the Kentucky Derby and who knows from there. Instead they don't race him because they let the sheets dictate the horse's racing schedule.

[lamboguy]

i saw the handle for the day was just shy of $100 million. it looks like the day was a big success.

[lamboguy]

the all source handle was up over $10 million from 2013, an over 10% increase. i hope it keeps growing from there.

[minethatbird08]

Yeah, I had all my money on him. Don't know if he could have won, but at least would have broke even with my show bet.

I had a win/show on GM; couldn't pass on those odds. Wish he didn't get stopped but chips fall that way sometimes. I have been on the other side of the coin too.

[ribjig]

Did anyone anywhere on PA forum
CLEARLY
state bet Creator to win?????
:eek:-not :eek:-exactly :eek:-an :eek:-inexplicable :eek:-longshot...

[Grits]

Did anyone anywhere on PA forum
CLEARLY
state bet Creator to win?????
:eek:-not :eek:-exactly :eek:-an :eek:-inexplicable :eek:-longshot...

And this would've put you all over him? It seldom works this way.

You're clearly complaining. :faint:

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Did anyone anywhere on PA forum
CLEARLY
state bet Creator to win?????
:eek:-not :eek:-exactly :eek:-an :eek:-inexplicable :eek:-longshot...

Nope. And I feel quite foolish. Especially after he treated me so well in his derby preps at Oaklawn.

The near $1,400 Trifecta was made up of horses that won Derby prep races. If you were looking to beat Exaggerator, it really wasn't that difficult of a race to hit that paid out tremendously well. :(

$289 Exacta for the Arkansas Derby and Tampa Bay Derby champs.

[raybo]

Creator was among several horses, at good odds, that could/would have been smart bets. But, because of there being so many "possibles" at good money, I just couldn't narrow them down enough to wager, so I passed. The only thing I was relatively confident about, before the race, was that Gettysburg would get the early lead, and the rail throughout. Other than that, I was undecided, and when I'm undecided I usually pass for a better opportunity.

[cj]

Lani would have won the Belmont with Lasix IMO.

[Hoops McCann]

Very exciting Belmont and a great day of racing overall with awesome runs by Frosted, Flintshire and Celestine. Cavorting not too shabby either

[hogoffate]

I was lucky to get out with a profit for the day. I had the winner for 2$ and the exacta for 1$. Nothing to brag about as that was my only cashing wager for the day.

I was surprised that Suddenbreakingnews was bet so hard especially so since Creator was in front of him both times that they had faced each other. I figured that if I was going to put money on a closer (as closers have not fared "well" in the Belmont), it was going to be on the closer with the best odds and the better of the "closers".

[jk3521]

Cudos to Larry Collmus on his race calls. Almost made me not miss Tom Durkin !

[magwell]

Lani would have won the Belmont with Lasix IMO.CJ are you agreeing with me or just taking a shot at my earlier comment ?

[cj]

CJ are you agreeing with me or just taking a shot at my earlier comment ?

I agree with you, didn't read back that far, sorry.

[cj]

Cudos to Larry Collmus on his race calls. Almost made me not miss Tom Durkin !

Larry was fabulous. Wish he would have called Creator the winner but I can understand why he didn't. You can't make that gaffe as a race caller.

[luisbe]

Cudos to Larry Collmus on his race calls. Almost made me not miss Tom Durkin !

Just that he mentioned Froasted when he was 4 lengths in front.

[Grits]

Just that he mentioned Froasted when he was 4 lengths in front.

I bet Larry can spell his name though.

However, you cannot. :faint:

[AlBundy33]

Just that he mentioned Froasted when he was 4 lengths in front.

Froasted? Is that a type of roasted slurpee or something of that nature? :D ;)

[Grits]

Was quite pleased for Lani yesterday. He may not have won but he easily proved.. a horse, today, training in the U.S. can get the 1 1/2 mile distance without it. Odd isn't it?

[Fager Fan]

Was quite pleased for Lani yesterday. He may not have won but he easily proved.. a horse, today, training in the U.S. can get the 1 1/2 mile distance without it. Odd isn't it?

I don't get the fascination with this horse. What exactly has he done except prove to be a bad actor (which isn't something I admire in a horse)?

[Grits]

I should change ...it, to lasix. Fager, I feel he worked hard for this race. That's all.

[lamboguy]

Was quite pleased for Lani yesterday. He may not have won but he easily proved.. a horse, today, training in the U.S. can get the 1 1/2 mile distance without it. Odd isn't it?maybe the fact that LANI didn't run on lasix helped him against the other horses that ran in the 3 races. EXAGERATOR looked like he was completely knocked out and had no business to be in the race yesterday.

[ultracapper]

Thing about Lani is that many were speculating that he may be able to get to the front and walk the dog. The connections obviously weren't thinking that way at all as Take hit the dashboard right out of the gate and took him to the very back.

The horse ran great.

[Bullet Plane]

I don't get the fascination with this horse. What exactly has he done except prove to be a bad actor (which isn't something I admire in a horse)?

You're kidding right?

I could have swore that he took down third purse money to the tune of $150,000.

And lost first by, what, a length and a half?

[ultracapper]

They're more apt to run the 1 1/4 to 1 5/8 mile races in Japan than they are here. Lani may very well end up having a very nice career back home as it looked like the distance was right in his wheelhouse. Being that he has shown a bit of immaturity also indicates he may still have some development moving forward.

He may turn into a real, real nice classic distance performer.

[ultracapper]

Did anyone anywhere on PA forum
CLEARLY
state bet Creator to win?????
:eek:-not :eek:-exactly :eek:-an :eek:-inexplicable :eek:-longshot...

Belmont Stakes........Under The Radar
Post #5

[pandy]

Lani reminds me of former K. Derby winner Giacomo. He doesn't do enough running prior to the stretch. He needs a track or a pace setup that favors closers and a long stretch to be effective. I think you could make a case that in dirt races, it would be wise never to bet on horses with his style...deep off the pace one run closers are not good bets. This is one of the difficulties of playing multi-race exotics as opposed to something simple like a win or exacta bet. A win/exacta bettor never has to include these horses. A Pick 5 player may have to throw them in sometimes.

[lamboguy]

if anything, LANI proved he belonged with these horses. the owner and trainer have to be congratulated for sticking with their plan. running 3rd in the Belmont Stakes is no small feat.

[Longshot6977]

Did anyone anywhere on PA forum
CLEARLY
state bet Creator to win?????
:eek:-not :eek:-exactly :eek:-an :eek:-inexplicable :eek:-longshot...

Nearest comment for Creator would be post 12 by Robert Fischer:
"Steve Asmussen will have Gettysburg ensuring an honest pace for Win Star Farms' top 3yo Creator to close into."

[Robert Fischer]

Nearest comment for Creator would be post 12 by Robert Fischer:
"Steve Asmussen will have Gettysburg ensuring an honest pace for Win Star Farms' top 3yo Creator to close into."

I used Creator, but I didn't foresee Exaggerator racing wide near the pace and throwing in a clunker.
With Flintshire an obvious lock, and then Exaggerator a solid fav, I wasn't crazy about the horizontals.

I keyed Exaggerator 1st and 2nd with some contenders in Tris and Supers, and didn't get anything out of liking Creator. :)

Will be interesting to see if Irad Ortiz Jr. and Creator continue to be a successful team in the upcoming stakes. A lot of the bigger races will have some pace.

[clocker7]

I threw out Nyquist in the Preakness because his KD race was too taxing. I threw out Exaggerator for the same reason in the Belmont.

That Lani ran credibly--when I didn't expect him to, because of his schedule--in the Belmont is to his credit. However, I ascribe that more to the lame quality of his competition and Exaggerator's vulnerability, rather than to his overall ability.

[Mc990]

I threw out Nyquist in the Preakness because his KD race was too taxing. I threw out Exaggerator for the same reason in the Belmont.

That Lani ran credibly--when I didn't expect him to, because of his schedule--in the Belmont is to his credit. However, I ascribe that more to the lame quality of his competition and Exaggerator's vulnerability, rather than to his overall ability.

The fact that Lani was able to not only hold his form but improve through the 3 TC races is most likely a function of racing without lasix.

[bobphilo]

The fact that Lani was able to not only hold his form but improve through the 3 TC races is most likely a function of racing without lasix.
Right you are. Potent diuretics like Lasix cause horses to urinate out vital electrolytes like potassium and calcium. Low calcium levels in the blood cause it to be leeched out of the bones and joints leading to more injuries.
Also, horses already sweat heavily when racing causing loss of body water. To give them a diuretic in addition induces severe dehydration. This is an insult to the body and over time takes its toll.

[pandy]

Right you are. Potent diuretics like Lasix cause horses to urinate out vital electrolytes like potassium and calcium. Low calcium levels in the blood cause it to be leeched out of the bones and joints leading to more injuries.
Also, horses already sweat heavily when racing causing loss of body water. To give them a diuretic in addition induces severe dehydration. This is an insult to the body and over time takes its toll.


I think the top barns are giving their horses supplements to counteract the side effects you mention, but, generally speaking, I agree with you. I don't think that lasix has been good for the sport and it certainly isn't good for the horses. Most horses don't need lasix but they are given it anyway. All drugs have side effects. No one should take any drug unless it's absolutely necessary. To give a horse a drug that it doesn't need is irresponsible, in my opinion, and that's why I believe that lasix should be banned. The widespread use of lasix simply isn't fair to the horses.

We see the huge problem pain pills have caused in this country. In many instances, a safer, less addictive drug, such as ibuprofen, could have done the job.

[bobphilo]

I think the top barns are giving their horses supplements to counteract the side effects you mention, but, generally speaking, I agree with you. I don't think that lasix has been good for the sport and it certainly isn't good for the horses. Most horses don't need lasix but they are given it anyway. All drugs have side effects. No one should take any drug unless it's absolutely necessary. To give a horse a drug that it doesn't need is irresponsible, in my opinion, and that's why I believe that lasix should be banned. The widespread use of lasix simply isn't fair to the horses.

We see the huge problem pain pills have caused in this country. In many instances, a safer, less addictive drug, such as ibuprofen, could have done the job.

Right, and furthermore Lasix has never been proven in any study to prevent bleeding. Its use is based on mere speculation that by lowering blood pressure it prevents bleeding. No study has ever confirmed this. In fact, one scientific study showed it does not prevent bleeding. Its performance enhancing effects may well be due to the fact that by diluting the urine it may be lowering the concentration of other drugs to below legal limits.
The rest of the world bans Lasix and they do not have higher incidences of bleeding than the US.

[PaceAdvantage]

I've never understood how giving a horse Lasix and limiting its intake of water before race time was a good thing, but that's the modus operandi of Lasix use, correct?

How can this be good for an athlete right before strenuous competition?

[clocker7]

I've never understood how giving a horse Lasix and limiting its intake of water before race time was a good thing, but that's the modus operandi of Lasix use, correct?

How can this be good for an athlete right before strenuous competition?
In horse racing, over a century of jockeys starving and/or dehydrating themselves has been standard practice. Not saying that it is good, but only that staying competitive (or in the game) requires something extraordinary.

Many wrestlers. Boxers. ditto.

[bobphilo]

I've never understood how giving a horse Lasix and limiting its intake of water before race time was a good thing, but that's the modus operandi of Lasix use, correct?

How can this be good for an athlete right before strenuous competition?
It isn't. that's why long distance runners always try to keep themselves hydrated.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've never understood how giving a horse Lasix and limiting its intake of water before race time was a good thing, but that's the modus operandi of Lasix use, correct?

How can this be good for an athlete right before strenuous competition?

Lasix and withholding water equals weight loss of 30 to 40 lbs. Less weight = less energy expended/segment of race = better performance. I have no idea how Lasix would impact human athletes in a race.

[bobphilo]

In horse racing, over a century of jockeys starving and/or dehydrating themselves has been standard practice. Not saying that it is good, but only that staying competitive (or in the game) requires something extraordinary.

Many wrestlers. Boxers. ditto.
Many of the training traditions of boxing have been shown to be silly or counter productive - such as no sex for weeks before a match and no water between rounds.
I used to wrestle in college and on occasion limited my water intake, but that was always to make weight the day before the match. By match time boxers and wrestlers have fully re-hydrated.
Racehorses already sweat out tons of water when they race. Dehydrating further with a potent diuretic just makes matters worse. Especially when there has been no scientific study to show it prevents bleeding.

[bobphilo]

Lasix and withholding water equals weight loss of 30 to 40 lbs. Less weight = less energy expended/segment of race = better performance. I have no idea how Lasix would impact human athletes in a race.
That is one theory as to why Lasix is a performance enhancing drug. Another is that it so dilutes the urine that other illegal drugs cannot be detected. In any case it is performance enhancing and should be banned like any other such drug.

[Trips]

I've never understood how giving a horse Lasix and limiting its intake of water before race time was a good thing, but that's the modus operandi of Lasix use, correct?

How can this be good for an athlete right before strenuous competition?
Large amounts of water can affect the breathing of a race horse believe it or not. While running at high speeds water can interfere with the way the diaphragm works.

[clocker7]

Many of the training traditions of boxing have been shown to be silly or counter productive - such as no sex for weeks before a match and no water between rounds.
I used to wrestle in college and on occasion limited my water intake, but that was always to make weight the day before the match. By match time boxers and wrestlers have fully re-hydrated.
Racehorses already sweat out tons of water when they race. Dehydrating further with a potent diuretic just makes matters worse. Especially when there has been no scientific study to show it prevents bleeding.
Are you claiming that horse trainers are being self-defeating by using lasix?

[clocker7]

C'mon ... let's get real. Trainers through trial/error discovered long ago that, by employing lasix, their horses stayed competitive with other users.

They sacrificed the brief longer term for the shorter term economic results. They also concluded that they were not harming the long-term health of their horses.

[clocker7]

Withholding lasix from a percentage of racers is animal cruelty.

[raybo]

The only times I pay attention to lasix is if it's the first time, or first time after being off it for a while, or if it is off lasix for the first time, or off it after being on it for a while.

[bobphilo]

Large amounts of water can affect the breathing of a race horse believe it or not. While running at high speeds water can interfere with the way the diaphragm works.
Horses have evolved and are bred to be perfect physiological running machines. They would have become extent if they were carrying so much water that their running was affected.
Horses don't have huge amounts of water in their system unless huge amounts are poured down their throats before they race. I doubt any trainer does that.
Besides I doubt that a horse sweating 30-40 pounds of water during a race will have too much water on board. Dehydration is a more likely problem.

[bobphilo]

Are you claiming that horse trainers are being self-defeating by using lasix?
In the long run, yes.

[bobphilo]

Withholding lasix from a percentage of racers is animal cruelty.
If anything, just the opposite is true.

[clocker7]

In the long run, yes.
So you think that trainers are dumb about their overall earnings prospects and and can't calculate whatsoever?

Hmmm .... sounds like that you should enter the game and prosper because of their ignorance. Maybe even revolutionize racing.

[bobphilo]

C'mon ... let's get real. Trainers through trial/error discovered long ago that, by employing lasix, their horses stayed competitive with other users.

They sacrificed the brief longer term for the shorter term economic results. They also concluded that they were not harming the long-term health of their horses.

Lets get real and acknowledge that a lot of traditional beliefs don't hold up to scientific scrutiny. Administering a potent pharmaceutical with no scientific basis is an act of cruelty. Would you take a drug that had not been tested properly? I guess horses don't matter. If Lasix were banned, like in the rest of the world, there would be no need for anyone to use it to stay competitive.

[clocker7]

Lets get real and acknowledge that a lot of traditional beliefs don't hold up to scientific scrutiny. Administering a potent pharmaceutical with no scientific basis is an act of cruelty. Would you take a drug that had not been tested properly? I guess horses don't matter. If Lasix were banned, like in the rest of the world, there would be no need for anyone to use it to stay competitive.
The answer to that proposition is to take advantage of an obvious profit-edge, then. Leaping over all of those sharpies in the game should be a piece of cake ... if you are correct in you analysis. Slumming in the wagering game makes no sense when there is a glaring opportunity waiting to be exploited.

Go for it, bob. And report back when the stars align.

[fiznow]

In every part of the world outside America horses run without lasix. So nobody can tell me horses need it to perform well. Thoroughbreds don't need any drugs at all. Period

[clocker7]

There was an excellent test of treating a horse wonderfully during the Triple Crown series this year. Lani was a Phippsian delight this spring, by not running on medication.

It was an excellent lab trial for theoreticians claiming that lasix is a net negative. So what did he have to show for it, other than open-distance losses?

[clocker7]

Worry warts claiming long-term downsides from lasix ... then what you have to say about Chrome kicking the behinds of the rest of the world in Dubai? Like he was hopelessly depleted from what went before?

One word: pfffftttttt

[fiznow]

Tepin is another example. Human athletes are not allowed to use drugs. Why should horses be?

[Grits]

There was an excellent test of treating a horse wonderfully during the Triple Crown series this year. Lani was a Phippsian delight this spring, by not running on medication.

It was an excellent lab trial for theoreticians claiming that lasix is a net negative. So what did he have to show for it, other than open-distance losses?

I could be recalling what I saw incorrectly but a 3rd place finish, two lengths back, going a mile and a half in the Belmont Stakes isn't exactly open distance.

The merits of, and against lasix, have been argued here endlessly and you've been part of this argument. I don't feel the need to get involved again. Still, Lani ran well in the race.

[bobphilo]

So you think that trainers are dumb about their overall earnings prospects and and can't calculate whatsoever?

Hmmm .... sounds like that you should enter the game and prosper because of their ignorance. Maybe even revolutionize racing.
You can always tell when someone is losing an argument by who starts throwing personal insults. Real classy.

[bobphilo]

Here's an excellent article by Bill Finley on how Lasix has no place in racing.

http://espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?id=3324301&columnist=finley_bill

[Bullet Plane]

There was an excellent test of treating a horse wonderfully during the Triple Crown series this year. Lani was a Phippsian delight this spring, by not running on medication.

It was an excellent lab trial for theoreticians claiming that lasix is a net negative. So what did he have to show for it, other than open-distance losses?


Purse money is why they run horses in races.

Lani cleaned up in two out of three triple crown races.

I don't have a dog in the fight, Lasix or not.

But you obviously need to pick another horse for your example.

You're getting laughed off this board. :lol:

[clocker7]

You can always tell when someone is losing an argument by who starts throwing personal insults. Real classy.
Personal insult? How so?

If you have strong beliefs in your position, then you should take advice and act on it. You are here attacking the decisions of very successful people, and claiming that they are counterproductive. So ... show them wrong by greater success of your own.

[clocker7]

Purse money is why they run horses in races.

Lani cleaned up in two out of three triple crown races.

I don't have a dog in the fight, Lasix or not.

But you obviously need to pick another horse for your example.

You're getting laughed off this board. :lol:

Nyquist and Exaggerator were the first-tier colts in this year's TC series. They demonstrated it at their peak. After them came the lesser lights, including Lani.

Now, if lasix-banners wish to tout the efficacy of non-usage, then one win would have furnished a better example of their own. Rather than a creature just struggling to get on the board and calling it victory.

But then, maybe some are complacent to have the dollars from a ninth-place, a fifth place, and a third place ......

[Tom]

Or the case can be made that those two in front of him were aided by using a performance enhancing drug to do it.

Lani was the only one who made his first US start in the Derby, then not only run in all three races over 5 weeks, but improved in each one.

Where were the lasix horses those 5 weeks? Other than Nyquist who couldn't make all three and Exaggerator who got beat by the MAIDEN in the third leg. :lol:

[bobphilo]

Personal insult? How so?

If you have strong beliefs in your position, then you should take advice and act on it. You are here attacking the decisions of very successful people, and claiming that they are counterproductive. So ... show them wrong by greater success of your own.
I see. So to you calling someone ignorant is not an insult. Then when you won't mind me calling you an ignoramous for your ignorant views in denying all the scientific evidence.
No one is denying that Lasix can be performance enhancing. That is the very reason why it should be banned. Especially since it it there is no good scientific evidence that it prevents bleeding and there is good evidence that that it is harmful to horses health in the long term, but it seems that all you care about is winning and the horses health be damned.

[clocker7]

I see. So to you calling someone ignorant is not an insult. Then when you won't mind me calling you an ignoramous for your ignorant views in denying all the scientific evidence.
No one is denying that Lasix can be performance enhancing. That is the very reason why it should be banned. Especially since it it there is no good scientific evidence that it prevents bleeding and there is good evidence that that it is harmful to horses health in the long term, but it seems that all you care about is winning and the horses health be damned.
Quit making stuff up. In post #96, you claimed that trainers are actively working against their economic self-interests by using lasix.

Yet, you could not back that up. You made a declaration, instead.

Here's a hypothetical to consider. What if Lani had been a first-time user in the Belmont ... might it not have gained him a few lengths, possibly, and resulted in a win instead of measly third?

[clocker7]

Or the case can be made that those two in front of him were aided by using a performance enhancing drug to do it.

Lani was the only one who made his first US start in the Derby, then not only run in all three races over 5 weeks, but improved in each one.

Where were the lasix horses those 5 weeks? Other than Nyquist who couldn't make all three and Exaggerator who got beat by the MAIDEN in the third leg. :lol:
While Exaggerator and Nyquist were battling for the wire in the KD, Lani was breezing 11 lengths back. While Exaggerator and Nyquist were contesting for the Woodlawn Vase in the Preakness, Lani was 5 lengths to the rear, finishing behind Stradivari :lol: and managing to outdo Laoban and Uncle Lino, along with the rest of the dregs.

Coasting like that tends to have a positive effect on energy conservation, so it's not all that surprising that he was finally able to get a third. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tom]

This your first year watching races?

[clocker7]

This your first year watching races?
Four and a half decades and counting. Is that your best retort?

Lani's team got a participation trophy for all of his effort. Meanwhile, the lasix-using teams swept the gold.

It's not that I am advocating for lasix -- only debating with bobphilo about their choices. He made the statement that they were working against their short-term and long-term economic interests. I took the opposite stand.

[clocker7]

If I had my druthers, there would be several series of races, at some racetracks with long meetings, for entrants that declined lasix. Say, for example, at SA and the northern CA circuit. Make it a long scientific study, to determine whether going clean would result in shorter turnarounds, bigger fields, and more predictable results that would keep bettors mollified. Instead of just blabbing endlessly.

[cj]

If I had my druthers, there would be several series of races, at some racetracks with long meetings, for entrants that declined lasix. Say, for example, at SA and the northern CA circuit. Make it a long scientific study, to determine whether going clean would result in shorter turnarounds, bigger fields, and more predictable results that would keep bettors mollified. Instead of just blabbing endlessly.

I personally don't think "more predictable results" has even been an argument trotted out against Lasix by bettors. That, IMO, is blabbing.

[Tom]

Lani's team got a participation trophy for all of his effort. Meanwhile, the lasix-using teams swept the gold.

You make my point.
We are not talking about performance, unless you mean enhanced performance due to lasix.

I am talking about what is good for the horse. Lani was the only one able to run in all three and show any improvement. Look at how the top two did after their big races - Nyquist out of actin, Exaggerator beat by a maiden, Gunrunner had to take 6 weeks before coming back to beat far lesser horses.

[clocker7]

You make my point.
We are not talking about performance, unless you mean enhanced performance due to lasix.

I am talking about what is good for the horse. Lani was the only one able to run in all three and show any improvement. Look at how the top two did after their big races - Nyquist out of actin, Exaggerator beat by a maiden, Gunrunner had to take 6 weeks before coming back to beat far lesser horses.
I have a different perspective. According to my handicapping, Nyquist and Exaggerator are exceptional-but-glorified 9fers who ran into their energy and distance limitations (Nyquist's health was a contributor, or so it seems). Basically, they were lesser animals as the spring season wore on. I said so much right after the KD and the Preakness.

As a result of that, the second tier and the new shooters prospered in the Belmont, where Lani seemed to benefit ... but not really. He had different breeding that placed him forwardly among the other chaff. People should not be fooled so easily.

[Tom]

Whatever.....

[rastajenk]

I personally don't think "more predictable results" has even been an argument trotted out against Lasix by bettors. That, IMO, is blabbing.
The Lasix-as-masking-agent line of contention is a big part of this. Don't take his conciseness too literally; it's not like bettors are waving their pitchforks yelling, "We Want More Predictable Results, among many other things! :mad: " But one of the anti-Lasix points has always been to give the cheaters and juicers less wiggle room than they already have, which gets around eventually to "more predictable results."

[cj]

The Lasix-as-masking-agent line of contention is a big part of this. Don't take his conciseness too literally; it's not like bettors are waving their pitchforks yelling, "We Want More Predictable Results, among many other things! :mad: " But one of the anti-Lasix points has always been to give the cheaters and juicers less wiggle room than they already have, which gets around eventually to "more predictable results."


The masking agent stuff is pretty outdated though. Not saying people don't still trot it out there as a reason, but it doesn't really hold water.

[magwell]

Scientific evidence ? well before Lasix when horses stopped suddenly and came back bleeding profusely from their nostrils with blood all over the jocks that's the reality of evidence, :rolleyes:.

[cj]

Scientific evidence ? well before Lasix when horses stopped suddenly and came back bleeding profusely from their nostrils with blood all over the jocks that's the reality of evidence, :rolleyes:.

Some horses need Lasix. Most horses don't need Lasix. Horses that don't need Lasix need to use Lasix to be able to compete on a level playing field with horses using Lasix.

[magwell]

Some horses need Lasix. Most horses don't need Lasix. Horses that don't need Lasix need to use Lasix to be able to compete on a level playing field with horses using Lasix.Exactly right partner......:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Fager Fan]

A big part of the Lasix discussion always neglects to talk about one important fact.

Has everyone here heard of lung scarring? Maybe in a family member or friend who got pneumonia? We all know that it's permanent damage to the lungs, right? And it's something that we would all try to avoid?

When a horse bleeds, it scars their lungs. This is why some trainers (maybe even most) train with Lasix. It's not for a "level playing field" when they're just working, right? Instead they're using Lasix to reduce the risk of bleeding and scarring the lungs of their horse.

Given this fact, I'm on the fence about Lasix. I don't want to needlessly scar the lungs of many of our horses. But I'm on the fence instead of pro-Lasix because I wonder if it is hereditary. If it's hereditary, then we need to ban Lasix so we can start turning back the clock to having horses who are more sound of lung.

For me, I don't know why everyone isn't on the fence with me. It's not some black and white issue until we know if it's hereditary. Demand those studies, then make policy based on the studies.

[cj]

A big part of the Lasix discussion always neglects to talk about one important fact.

Has everyone here heard of lung scarring? Maybe in a family member or friend who got pneumonia? We all know that it's permanent damage to the lungs, right? And it's something that we would all try to avoid?

When a horse bleeds, it scars their lungs. This is why some trainers (maybe even most) train with Lasix. It's not for a "level playing field" when they're just working, right? Instead they're using Lasix to reduce the risk of bleeding and scarring the lungs of their horse.

Given this fact, I'm on the fence about Lasix. I don't want to needlessly scar the lungs of many of our horses. But I'm on the fence instead of pro-Lasix because I wonder if it is hereditary. If it's hereditary, then we need to ban Lasix so we can start turning back the clock to having horses who are more sound of lung.

For me, I don't know why everyone isn't on the fence with me. It's not some black and white issue until we know if it's hereditary. Demand those studies, then make policy based on the studies.

There is a reason all the horses (mostly, 95%) use Lasix now, and it isn't about lung scarring. I'm not for a second denying scarring can occur. But drugging all the horses before a race and having them dehydrated is a pretty big thing to try to counteract something that isn't very common and only affects performance in severe cases.

[Fager Fan]

There is a reason all the horses (mostly, 95%) use Lasix now, and it isn't about lung scarring. I'm not for a second denying scarring can occur. But drugging all the horses before a race and having them dehydrated is a pretty big thing to try to counteract something that isn't very common and only affects performance in severe cases.


If you owned Nyquist, do you chance scarring his lungs?

[Cratos]

If you owned Nyquist, do you chance scarring his lungs?
A good read about lasix:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/31/lasix-drug-debate-bleeding-horse-racing

[Fager Fan]

A good read about lasix:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/31/lasix-drug-debate-bleeding-horse-racing

Thanks, but I've read that before along with hundreds of articles and talked to the top vets in the industry, so there's nothing new there for me.

The point is that there is a legitimate welfare concern, so it's not black and white. A recent study from Australia, I think, did seem to show that it's hereditary, but it also seems that the study was too small and lacked other evidence to make it embraced as solid.

[Cratos]

Thanks, but I've read that before along with hundreds of articles and talked to the top vets in the industry, so there's nothing new there for me.

The point is that there is a legitimate welfare concern, so it's not black and white. A recent study from Australia, I think, did seem to show that it's hereditary, but it also seems that the study was too small and lacked other evidence to make it embraced as solid.

I understand your inquisitiveness about the possible hereditary effect and from your posts you appear to have done some research on this topic.

Therefore what is of interest to me your thoughts about lasix being a performance enhancing drug.

[cj]

If you owned Nyquist, do you chance scarring his lungs?


Horses run nearly everywhere but here without Lasix and most are fine. Nyquist uses Lasix to get the same edge the rest do. It isn't about lung scarring.

[Fager Fan]

I understand your inquisitiveness about the possible hereditary effect and from your posts you appear to have done some research on this topic.

Therefore what is of interest to me your thoughts about lasix being a performance enhancing drug.

It'd obviously enhance the performance of those who bleed, so that alone makes it performance enhancing. Regarding the water loss advantage, my understanding is that old timers figured out how to lose the water without giving lasix. I don't know what those means we're though, of the accuracy of the "they did this back in the day" arguments.

[Fager Fan]

Horses run nearly everywhere but here without Lasix and most are fine. Nyquist uses Lasix to get the same edge the rest do. It isn't about lung scarring.

I'm telling you that there is a concern with bleeding and scarring. Again, there is zero reason to breeze a horse on Lasix if you're just looking for a race advantage. And the top vets in the country will tell you it's real.

I don't really know what is or isn't being used elsewhere. From what I've been told by people familiar with UAE and European racing, their testing is a farce compared to ours.

I'm not saying that giving lasix because others are isn't real, only that lung scarring is also real, and when debating the subject it has to be addressed.

[raybo]

It'd obviously enhance the performance of those who bleed, so that alone makes it performance enhancing. Regarding the water loss advantage, my understanding is that old timers figured out how to lose the water without giving lasix. I don't know what those means we're though, of the accuracy of the "they did this back in the day" arguments.

Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.

[cj]

I've said this before and I'll say it again then I'm done on this for now. We are injecting 95% of the horses before they race with a drug. I don't know how any reasonable person could look at this objectively and think it is a good thing. I realize some horses need it to race but most don't. To me it seems silly we'd rather drug the vast majority of horses than lose the ones that can't compete.

My best solution would be to give horses using Lasix a significant weight penalty. It isn't my idea. I read it first when written by Jerry Brown of Thorograph. I feel most horsemen would prefer to not use Lasix if given the choice and a level playing field. The game is never going to be looked upon favorably outside the core group that follows it now when most participants are drugged.

[tucker6]

Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.
I read an article once that bleeding to the point of affecting a horse's ability to perform was relatively small/rare, even for known bleeders.

[raybo]

I read an article once that bleeding to the point of affecting a horse's ability to perform was relatively small/rare, even for known bleeders.

As I said earlier, the only times I consider Lasix at all, are when there is a change made, either 1st time Lasix after having raced without it for a period of time.

Or, when a horse is taken off Lasix, after having raced with it for a period of time.

And regarding the former, the horse's last race or two must have shown significant "need" for the drug, meaning the horse faded badly late, all other things being equal. Lasix introduction, under those conditions, often produces an improved performance.

However, nowadays, very nearly every horse in American racing gets Lasix from the get-go, and continues getting it forever, so Lasix is of, very nearly, no concern in my handicapping, at all.

[bobphilo]

Some trainers, those who don't like to, or can't, use Lasix on race day, will "draw" or withhold water in the morning. But really, how much of an advantage is the reduction of 10 -20 pounds of water weight in a 1000 pound animal, either way? The real advantage of Lasix, IMO, is the reduction of blood in the respiratory system. if the horse has blood in its airways there can be negative health issues, and their performance can suffer. I'm not crazy about using a diuretic, but if it is effective in reducing or preventing bleeding, and nothing else works, then I'm all for it, if the horse is otherwise race sound.
The theory that Lasix prevents bleeding has never been proven in any study. In fact the only study done has shown it does not. To allow the use of any drug without proper testing is obscene. Would you take any drug that has not undergone proper testing? Do horses not deserve similar protection?
It causes calcium and magnesium to be leeched from the bones and supplemental calcium feeding is not enough to replace these essential minerals since the body cannot absorb enough calcium to replace that sweated and urinated out.
Yes, it is probably performance enhancing but this flies in the face of equine physiology except for the fact that it masks the presence of other illegal drugs by diluting the urine.
Lasix was first introduced by racing commissions, based on mere untested speculation, and thinking that it would stop declining field sizes. In fact it has had the opposite effect with average field sizes decreasing since it's legalization.
Europe, and the rest of the world, where Lasix is banned do not have any more of a bleeding problem than the U.S where it is used universally.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

A lot of anger and solid points regarding Lasix in this thread.

So, my question is, will anything ever be done about it?

I mean, it wouldn't be really difficult to do a real study regarding Lasix in horse racing in the U.S.. Right?

I've seen posts here and there regarding possible "No Lasix" races, and even some tracks possibly hinting at such. Any reason why this hasn't/doesn't happen?

[cj]

A lot of anger and solid points regarding Lasix in this thread.

So, my question is, will anything ever be done about it?

I mean, it wouldn't be really difficult to do a real study regarding Lasix in horse racing in the U.S.. Right?

I've seen posts here and there regarding possible "No Lasix" races, and even some tracks possibly hinting at such. Any reason why this hasn't/doesn't happen?

It actually did happen at Churchill I believe.

[bobphilo]

It actually did happen at Churchill I believe.
Yes, and I believe other commissions are moving towards phasing out Lasix use in response to a decline in racing due to the public perception that racing results are drug fueled.
This and a slap on the wrist attitude towards many drugging trainers is destroying racing and hopefully the powers that be will take stronger action before the sport suffers irreparable damage.

[clocker7]

To me, the lasix issue is pretty much a nothingburger in terms of impacting the horse population negatively.

Sure, there are purists who consider any unnatural substance to be the end of the world. Just like vegetarians and meat, and all that jazz. But their claims strike me as mostly exaggeration and hyperventilation.

Believe it or not, people like me have consciences about animal treatment. But, speaking for myself, being reasonable is part of the equation.

For instance, why do human triathletes who punish their bodies beyond normal limits, dehydration and exhaustion and all, escape the criticism that clobbers horse trainers for brief Thoroughbred water loss via lasix? The latter is nearly benign, compared to the former. And don't give me the baloney about animals having no say. Either drastic measures are unconscionable for every species or they're not. Either mild/momentary impacts are acceptable, or they're not ... universally across the spectrum.

[bobphilo]

To me, the lasix issue is pretty much a nothingburger in terms of impacting the horse population negatively.

Sure, there are purists who consider any unnatural substance to be the end of the world. Just like vegetarians and meat, and all that jazz. But their claims strike me as mostly exaggeration and hyperventilation.

Believe it or not, people like me have consciences about animal treatment. But, speaking for myself, being reasonable is part of the equation.

For instance, why do human triathletes who punish their bodies beyond normal limits, dehydration and exhaustion and all, escape the criticism that clobbers horse trainers for brief Thoroughbred water loss via lasix? The latter is nearly benign, compared to the former. And don't give me the baloney about animals having no say. Either drastic measures are unconscionable for every species or they're not. Either mild/momentary impacts are acceptable, or they're not ... universally across the spectrum.
I see, statements that animals have no choice about what harmful drugs are injected into their system are baloney. So you must think that horses are asking for Lasix. It is the moral responsibility of trainers to do what is best for their equine charges.
Your continued claiming that the effects of Lasix are "mild and momentary" are contradicted by all the science. Please educate yourself on the subject before making your incorrect statements.

[Redboard]

Last year, Keenland tried to run some “no Lasix” races, and the idiotic Kentucky Attorney General wouldn’t let them do it. Other pro sports are trying to rid their sport of PEDs, racing is doing just the opposite-forcing their athletes to take them.


http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-attorney-generals-office-says-tracks-cannot-write-lasix-free-races

[cj]

Watched John Oliver last night and his main topic was doping. One part that struck me because it related to horses. He was saying cheating has been going on forever, but making it legal isn't the answer either. One of the reasons, paraphrasing, is that you force those that want to be clean to dope too to be competitive. This is exactly what has happened in racing with Lasix IMO.

[Appy]

Couldn't agree more CJ.
Problem is too many 'trainers' don't seem to know how to train without drugs. After all, that's the only way they've ever done it. When everyone is doing it someone has to win, which is presented as proof that's the way to do it!
Instead of believing what's best for the horse is what's best for the trainer, they're operating on the principal that what they think is best for them is what's best for the horse. There is a big difference between people with horses and horsemen.

[Ruffian1]

Watched John Oliver last night and his main topic was doping. One part that struck me because it related to horses. He was saying cheating has been going on forever, but making it legal isn't the answer either. One of the reasons, paraphrasing, is that you force those that want to be clean to dope too to be competitive. This is exactly what has happened in racing with Lasix IMO.
its your opinion but it also happens to be a proven fact.
It drove me nuts and ultimately had a big hand in driving me out of the game.
Cheat or leave is basically what it came down to in the late nineties and around 2001. I knew it would take years more to have labs catch up .
I chose to leave.

[Redboard]

At the end of the last century, the prevailing attitude was “if you ain’t drugging you ain’t trying.” That was true in every sport not just racing. Back then the general public didn’t understand the power/danger of PEDs. There was a conception that they were like “vitamins” and that athletes were happier and healthier on them.