Las Vegas Exacta Wagering

[traynor]

I have (unfortunately) not had the time or opportunity to spend much time in Vegas in the past few years. From a superficial view of (current) casino race book info online, it would seem that exacta wagers are accepted, and paid at track mutuels. Is this true in your experience? Most casinos, some casinos, all casinos?

Last time I was in a race book they only took quiniela bets, paid at their computed rates based on odds--no exacta bets at all. Because I wager primarily on exactas and Pick 3s, Las Vegas has not been high on my list of preferred destinations for race wagering. If I can get track payoffs on exactas, I may seriously consider relocation.

[Red Knave]

Not sure if there are any real race 'books' left in Vegas. Most hotel casinos co-mingle the same as any other ADW. I haven't bet a Q for eons so I don't know about that but everything else that I bet pays off at track odds.

[RunForTheRoses]

For the last 20 years or so Las Vegas Racebooks offer full odds-they are essentially ADWs or OTBs.
In fact it is rarer now to find a book with House Qs or the Double Quinella promotions.

No need to worry, you can bet the Pick 6 if you'd like. Must have been a long time.

[chenoa]

I was at Caesars Palace 4 or 5 years ago, and noticed the pools when they showed at Aqueduct with 3 minutes to post and there was a bridge jumper in the pool. I went up to bet against and put $200 to show on the 7/2 shot. She had to ask the supervisor if that was ok to take my bet :rolleyes:

He said it was ok.....and when the gates opened up the 1/5 shot lost his rider out of the gate. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tanner12oz]

I have (unfortunately) not had the time or opportunity to spend much time in Vegas in the past few years. From a superficial view of (current) casino race book info online, it would seem that exacta wagers are accepted, and paid at track mutuels. Is this true in your experience? Most casinos, some casinos, all casinos?

Last time I was in a race book they only took quiniela bets, paid at their computed rates based on odds--no exacta bets at all. Because I wager primarily on exactas and Pick 3s, Las Vegas has not been high on my list of preferred destinations for race wagering. If I can get track payoffs on exactas, I may seriously consider relocation.

future bets for horses in Vegas are the way to go..everything else might as well just adw it

[traynor]

For the last 20 years or so Las Vegas Racebooks offer full odds-they are essentially ADWs or OTBs.
In fact it is rarer now to find a book with House Qs or the Double Quinella promotions.

No need to worry, you can bet the Pick 6 if you'd like. Must have been a long time.

Actually, less than 10 years. I must have been staying at one of the holdouts.

[traynor]

Not sure if there are any real race 'books' left in Vegas. Most hotel casinos co-mingle the same as any other ADW. I haven't bet a Q for eons so I don't know about that but everything else that I bet pays off at track odds.

Thanks. It is the co-mingling I need. Despite glowing promises of "generous rebates" from various sources (the more you lose, the bigger the rebate) the generosity does not seem to extend to bettors who win.

[traynor]

I was at Caesars Palace 4 or 5 years ago, and noticed the pools when they showed at Aqueduct with 3 minutes to post and there was a bridge jumper in the pool. I went up to bet against and put $200 to show on the 7/2 shot. She had to ask the supervisor if that was ok to take my bet :rolleyes:

He said it was ok.....and when the gates opened up the 1/5 shot lost his rider out of the gate. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think it is the grinder mentality there. They want lots of bets, to leverage the exponential decay. Single bets of anything over $50 or so seem to make them nervous, unless it is a table game.

[traynor]

future bets for horses in Vegas are the way to go..everything else might as well just adw it

I moved from Phoenix when they made online betting illegal. I miss the desert, and Las Vegas is close enough to being a real desert for me.

I don't have a lot of trouble winning (unless you consider a 24/7 obsession with data mining, data analysis, and data modeling of horse races "trouble"). I have a lot more trouble getting the money after I win. I have worn out my welcome at most places that don't co-mingle.

Las Vegas paying track odds opens a whole new world of opportunity.

[AltonKelsey]

The thought occurs, if you're really that good, why they don't just offload your action and piggy back it. Free access to a good opinion, you'd think they'd welcome you with open arms.

[traynor]

The thought occurs, if you're really that good, why they don't just offload your action and piggy back it. Free access to a good opinion, you'd think they'd welcome you with open arms.

I don't know how good you consider "that good" but most offshores or wherever-they-are that don't co-mingle with the tracks take a dim view of withdrawals. The "expected" behavior is to build the fund on their site until the inevitable downturn and ensuing losses they believe is carved in stone. It doesn't take more than a few withdrawals to reach the persona non grata status.

[SandyW]

All race books in Las Vegas are pari-mutuel, just like betting at the track.

[traynor]

All race books in Las Vegas are pari-mutuel, just like betting at the track.

Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to know. Time to dust off the plans for building the ultimate sand railer. I really like Las Vegas.

[AltonKelsey]

I don't know how good you consider "that good" but most offshores or wherever-they-are that don't co-mingle with the tracks take a dim view of withdrawals. The "expected" behavior is to build the fund on their site until the inevitable downturn and ensuing losses they believe is carved in stone. It doesn't take more than a few withdrawals to reach the persona non grata status.

I've never dealt with those sites, but if all it takes is winning and withdrawing some money to get banned , then a lot of players would have been kicked by now. Is that the case?

[formula_2002]

I think it is the grinder mentality there. They want lots of bets, to leverage the exponential decay. Single bets of anything over $50 or so seem to make them nervous, unless it is a table game.


that's what I have been suffering from all these years..thanks for the diagnosis :) :)

[formula_2002]

I still have mine
I can still remember the day two guys were selling them at Abercrombie & Fitch. The store on 5th ave(?) where you could be outfitted for an African safari

[RunForTheRoses]

Thanks. That is exactly what I wanted to know. Time to dust off the plans for building the ultimate sand railer. I really like Las Vegas.

Me too and I really appreciate the desert SW, beautiful, have to hit up Red Rock Canton or Valley of Fire.

[traynor]

I've never dealt with those sites, but if all it takes is winning and withdrawing some money to get banned , then a lot of players would have been kicked by now. Is that the case?

I think there are far fewer bettors actually winning than there are bettors who say they are winning, or who sincerely believe they are winning. All the upping and downing and "ROI figures" are all very fine for score keeping, but the proof of the pudding is how often (and how much) one withdraws from their wagering bankroll to spend on/invest in other things.

Viewed as a business, it is a fairly simple process. Viewed as a statement of one's self-worth as a bettor, or for some other equally arcane motivation, winning is tough. The more internal motivation and desire attached to the process, the tougher it is.

"Winning and withdrawing some money" is a broad brush. If someone makes a big score (single hit) and withdraws, fine. That is normal, expected behavior, and virtually guarantees the winner will be putting that money (and more) back in. Deposit 100X and at the end of some period withdraw 20X--leaving the original 100X or more in the account--and alarm bells start going off. Do that more than once, and you will definitely become a "person of interest."

[traynor]

I still have mine
I can still remember the day two guys were selling them at Abercrombie & Fitch. The store on 5th ave(?) where you could be outfitted for an African safari
That store carried a line of bush jackets that was so much better than anything else available, it made them mandatory for a whole group of hunters. I think there was an unwritten rule for awhile that anyone who did not wear a bush jacket from A&F was not qualified to use a double.

[traynor]

Me too and I really appreciate the desert SW, beautiful, have to hit up Red Rock Canton or Valley of Fire.

I think living in the desert creates a peculiar mindset, that is especially appropriate for bettors. It is one place that it is definitely harmful to go drifting off into lala land, an affliction that seems to be prevalent in many bettors. The simple awareness of one's surroundings that living in the desert demands is a big plus when it comes to analyzing races. When overlooking details can be fatal, it tends to make one pay attention. To everything.

[no breathalyzer]

I don't know how good you consider "that good" but most offshores or wherever-they-are that don't co-mingle with the tracks take a dim view of withdrawals. The "expected" behavior is to build the fund on their site until the inevitable downturn and ensuing losses they believe is carved in stone. It doesn't take more than a few withdrawals to reach the persona non grata status.

I know people that were told they can not bet horses on their site anymore... they see a guy that keeps on winning they simple put a stop to it... but you can play the casino and poker all you want :D

[RaceBookJoe]

I haven't checked in a while, but Sunset Station used to have a House Quinella, not sure if they still do. I will stop by this week and find out. If I remember correctly, it was usually on 2 random SoCal races.

[AltonKelsey]

......
"Winning and withdrawing some money" is a broad brush. If someone makes a big score (single hit) and withdraws, fine. That is normal, expected behavior, and virtually guarantees the winner will be putting that money (and more) back in. Deposit 100X and at the end of some period withdraw 20X--leaving the original 100X or more in the account--and alarm bells start going off. Do that more than once, and you will definitely become a "person of interest."

I more than appreciate the nuance of what actually winning substantial money is about. All I'm asking is, if these books have access to such proven talent, why would they want to squander a first look at such a golden opinion? They can always lay off the action.

[SandyW]

I haven't checked in a while, but Sunset Station used to have a House Quinella, not sure if they still do. I will stop by this week and find out. If I remember correctly, it was usually on 2 random SoCal races.

It is called the twin quinella and is for $5,000 daily with all winners sharing. If there is no winner then the twin quinella will carry over to the next day.
It is offered at all Station casino. There must be at least 8 horses in each of the races, so sometimes Stations will use other some other track then SoCal tracks who sometimes don't have large enough fields.

[traynor]

I more than appreciate the nuance of what actually winning substantial money is about. All I'm asking is, if these books have access to such proven talent, why would they want to squander a first look at such a golden opinion? They can always lay off the action.

Wagering is a business, not a hobby. It is not useful to dump the details of one's business on the street for anyone curious enough to look to find. As a business, certain processes are automatic.

One of those processes is chunking, similar to that used by software developers that hire subcontractors to write code modules. No single subcontractor, and no close group of subcontractors, is ever provided with a sufficiently large block of code (or the design for that code) that it can be "pieced together." Consider the project management strategies of Tata and WiPro as templates.

Because a major part of serious betting is based on restricted information access, behavior that exposes that information is "not useful."

To reverse engineer successful wagers presumes that all those successful wagers are made through a specific venue. That is rarely the case, and I cannot imagine anyone (or any group) wagering serious money with a "non co-mingling" entity that would be foolish enough to do so in a manner that would permit strategy tracking and reverse engineering. Wagering is a highly competitive enterprise, and just like any other such, is subject to routine security strategies to prevent piracy (or reverse engineering) of their strategy.

[traynor]

I know people that were told they can not bet horses on their site anymore... they see a guy that keeps on winning they simple put a stop to it... but you can play the casino and poker all you want :D

The vendors love a loser, of any stripe, of any persuasion.

[traynor]

I haven't checked in a while, but Sunset Station used to have a House Quinella, not sure if they still do. I will stop by this week and find out. If I remember correctly, it was usually on 2 random SoCal races.

The quinielas from way back were an alternative to other exotics. The formula was the win price of the winner times one-half of the placer, either the placers place price or win odds (I don't recall which--I never made them). In any event, they were trivial (relative to the on-track exacta mutuels).

[AltonKelsey]

......To reverse engineer successful wagers presumes that all those successful wagers are made through a specific venue. That is rarely the case, and I cannot imagine anyone (or any group) wagering serious money with a "non co-mingling" entity that would be foolish enough to do so in a manner that would permit strategy tracking and reverse engineering. Wagering is a highly competitive enterprise, and just like any other such, is subject to routine security strategies to prevent piracy (or reverse engineering) of their strategy.

Good answer. I knew you'd not disappoint.:)

Still, if you're winning at a certain venue, then they would have to be paranoid enough to 1) kick you 2) not follow you for fear that they would start getting the 'losing' plays if they did.

[RunForTheRoses]

The quinielas from way back were an alternative to other exotics. The formula was the win price of the winner times one-half of the placer, either the placers place price or win odds (I don't recall which--I never made them). In any event, they were trivial (relative to the on-track exacta mutuels).

Yes, I remember there was a fairly big bettor who would look for a race with two standouts- like 6/5 and 7/5 and he would bet as much as allowed. He felt it was much better than the exacta box with that formula.

The twin Q is a promotional bet as an earlier poster noted, a jackpot type bet.

[traynor]

Good answer. I knew you'd not disappoint.:)

Still, if you're winning at a certain venue, then they would have to be paranoid enough to 1) kick you 2) not follow you for fear that they would start getting the 'losing' plays if they did.


Not necessarily paranoid. Just normal business. Venues that do not co-mingle essentially book their own bets. In almost every case, that is a hardcore winning proposition, because almost no one actually wins, and of those who win, even fewer do so over time. It is almost like free money for the venue. So they are highly motivated to do everything they can to assure their customers are all losers.