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View Full Version : TVG..Disgraceful


Wonderlander
05-21-2016, 08:41 PM
To my understanding BF owns TVG.. Yet the tracks BF carried are not covered over tracks BF does not have on the exchange on the two TVG streams. For example TVG will choose to show Gulf stream B meet.. over Monmouth... Or they will hardly cover a race at Emerald(ON BF) if a track like Golden Gate is going at the same time (NOT ON BF). Or they will show a post parade and go on tape delay to the track on BF.. Now its interesting to me with all the advertising they are doing promoting the exchange and in running.. IN NJ! That TVG does not make an effort the show the tracks covered on BF!! (What they are advertising!!..) Now not sure if BF makes the decisions as to what is taken priority to be shown live.. But it is quite baffling to see.

duncan04
05-21-2016, 08:54 PM
BF just started in the U.S. TVG had previous contracts which they need to honor. Pretty simple

Wonderlander
05-21-2016, 08:57 PM
They have owned TVG a long time..

duncan04
05-22-2016, 12:14 AM
They have owned TVG a long time..

Yeah but exchange wagering is new. They have had preexisting contracts to show other tracks and not necessarily what is offered on the exchange

pandy
05-22-2016, 12:23 AM
To my understanding BF owns TVG.. Yet the tracks BF carried are not covered over tracks BF does not have on the exchange on the two TVG streams. For example TVG will choose to show Gulf stream B meet.. over Monmouth... Or they will hardly cover a race at Emerald(ON BF) if a track like Golden Gate is going at the same time (NOT ON BF). Or they will show a post parade and go on tape delay to the track on BF.. Now its interesting to me with all the advertising they are doing promoting the exchange and in running.. IN NJ! That TVG does not make an effort the show the tracks covered on BF!! (What they are advertising!!..) Now not sure if BF makes the decisions as to what is taken priority to be shown live.. But it is quite baffling to see.

It is baffling sometimes but part of it is contractual, and I believe they also give preference to the tracks that generate the most business for them. You said that they'll show Gulfstream B meet over Monmouth. I don't know what the Gulfstream handle is right now, but I know that the Gulfstream winter meet set an all time record for handle with a sensational average of $860,000 per race. And Monmouth is pretty much a B meet, too, so it's not like they have that much of an advantage.

SuperPickle
05-22-2016, 12:46 AM
To my understanding BF owns TVG.. Yet the tracks BF carried are not covered over tracks BF does not have on the exchange on the two TVG streams. For example TVG will choose to show Gulf stream B meet.. over Monmouth... Or they will hardly cover a race at Emerald(ON BF) if a track like Golden Gate is going at the same time (NOT ON BF). Or they will show a post parade and go on tape delay to the track on BF.. Now its interesting to me with all the advertising they are doing promoting the exchange and in running.. IN NJ! That TVG does not make an effort the show the tracks covered on BF!! (What they are advertising!!..) Now not sure if BF makes the decisions as to what is taken priority to be shown live.. But it is quite baffling to see.

Almost every track is shown in contractual preference/obligation.

Some of these contracts run up to 3 even 4 years. They also inherited a bunch of deals from HRTV.

Also not to rude but your examples suck. Gulfstream is the premier track in the country for 25% of the year. So they should probably give them preference over Monmouth which is in 2016 not really doing well.

Yeah and Golden Gate is better racing than Emerald. They're also owned by the guy who owns Samta Anita and Gulfstream so I'm pretty sure they have some negotiating power over a track in Seattle that runs a third of the year.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your angle. Basically the exchange is open to like 5% of their customers. So they should say screw our contracts and screw 95% of their customers? That's a better way to run the business?

upthecreek
05-22-2016, 07:30 AM
As Todd Schrupp always says America's Horse Racing Network, TVG
Marginally better than nothing

forced89
05-22-2016, 10:13 AM
I ditto above post without the "marginally".

Wonderlander
05-22-2016, 02:13 PM
Almost every track is shown in contractual preference/obligation.

Some of these contracts run up to 3 even 4 years. They also inherited a bunch of deals from HRTV.

Also not to rude but your examples suck. Gulfstream is the premier track in the country for 25% of the year. So they should probably give them preference over Monmouth which is in 2016 not really doing well.

Yeah and Golden Gate is better racing than Emerald. They're also owned by the guy who owns Samta Anita and Gulfstream so I'm pretty sure they have some negotiating power over a track in Seattle that runs a third of the year.

I'm trying to wrap my head around your angle. Basically the exchange is open to like 5% of their customers. So they should say screw our contracts and screw 95% of their customers? That's a better way to run the business?

Stronic owns those tracks and wants nothing to do with the exchange yet his tracks are put on over BF tracks. Im trying to wrap my head around a company who is trying to grow a product and own the televising site...yet is not getting there own tracks shown on the live televising channel. Yes maybe they have contracts i dont know about. Maybe they make more money showing B meet at Gulf stream over Monmouth its possible. I just find it very interesting. BF has lots of money. They can do what they want.. why not take control of there televising network. I guess its because they would make less money showing the tracks they are advertising on the exchange as you so bluntly expressed. I guess you also feel showing a post parade, is more important than showing a live race? that will also help promote the new product...lmao

Wonderlander
05-22-2016, 06:07 PM
Two in play tracks Woodbine and Monmouth running simultaneously all day.. Great way to increase liquidity.. have them run at the exact same time..

Tom
05-22-2016, 06:18 PM
Two in play tracks Woodbine and Monmouth running simultaneously all day.. Great way to increase liquidity.. have them run at the exact same time..

Who is "they" that makes do that?

SuperPickle
05-23-2016, 12:37 AM
Stronic owns those tracks and wants nothing to do with the exchange yet his tracks are put on over BF tracks. Im trying to wrap my head around a company who is trying to grow a product and own the televising site...yet is not getting there own tracks shown on the live televising channel. Yes maybe they have contracts i dont know about. Maybe they make more money showing B meet at Gulf stream over Monmouth its possible. I just find it very interesting. BF has lots of money. They can do what they want.. why not take control of there televising network. I guess its because they would make less money showing the tracks they are advertising on the exchange as you so bluntly expressed. I guess you also feel showing a post parade, is more important than showing a live race? that will also help promote the new product...lmao


You do realize if they did things your way there would be a thread on this message board complaining how Tvg is constantly promoting and accommodating an exchange 95% people can't bet on.

Wonderlander
05-23-2016, 01:28 AM
You do realize if they did things your way there would be a thread on this message board complaining how Tvg is constantly promoting and accommodating an exchange 95% people can't bet on.

So than it is more beneficial in the long term for BF to show the other tracks over the ones on there site. Because they do things in my understanding for there best interests.. I guess a post parade or the broadcasters picks are also more important than showing a live race. Than go to the race without even putting tape delay on..

castaway01
05-23-2016, 09:38 AM
So than it is more beneficial in the long term for BF to show the other tracks over the ones on there site. Because they do things in my understanding for there best interests.. I guess a post parade or the broadcasters picks are also more important than showing a live race. Than go to the race without even putting tape delay on..

I'm one of the people who can bet the exchange, but the rest of the country can't, so why would they dictate programming based on a tiny percentage of their viewership? What you're saying makes no sense.

AlBundy33
05-23-2016, 09:39 AM
This is nothing compared to what they used to do from 2007-2010.

I remember one time that they went to commercial as they were loading the field the last race at Aqueduct. Or showing Chris Shilltoulak babble on instead of showing live races.

Let alone :58 Flat, On The Nose and Gate Crashers were three of the worst conceived ideas in the history of television. :D

camourous
05-23-2016, 01:07 PM
This is nothing compared to what they used to do from 2007-2010.

I remember one time that they went to commercial as they were loading the field the last race at Aqueduct. Or showing Chris Shilltoulak babble on instead of showing live races.




They still do these things regularly

AlBundy33
05-23-2016, 02:37 PM
They still do these things regularly

I'm not surprised, although the few and far between times I manage to watch TVG, it has been a bit better than it was.....at least in my opinion. (Which might be worth .002 cents)

BTW, nice YouTube channel. Always good to see races that you couldn't see pre-simulcasting era.

Wonderlander
06-06-2016, 12:42 AM
Today is was GULF STREAM OVER BELMONT. Really? What does Frank pull in this place. Blacker was like.. we have to go to Gulf stream. Whatever he has, he wont allow exchange but his tracks are taken as priority in every case. crazy. Advertise monmouth for 10 mins, than go to Gulf stream.. No Emerald ever covered. Guys picks on screen more important.. Who cares about your picks. Im way better just give me the feed...

JimG
06-06-2016, 08:29 AM
Today is was GULF STREAM OVER BELMONT. Really? What does Frank pull in this place. Blacker was like.. we have to go to Gulf stream. Whatever he has, he wont allow exchange but his tracks are taken as priority in every case. crazy. Advertise monmouth for 10 mins, than go to Gulf stream.. No Emerald ever covered. Guys picks on screen more important.. Who cares about your picks. Im way better just give me the feed...

My guess is when TVG bought out HRTV that Stronach negotiated top priority of his tracks a condition of the sale.

castaway01
06-06-2016, 01:49 PM
Today is was GULF STREAM OVER BELMONT. Really? What does Frank pull in this place. Blacker was like.. we have to go to Gulf stream. Whatever he has, he wont allow exchange but his tracks are taken as priority in every case. crazy. Advertise monmouth for 10 mins, than go to Gulf stream.. No Emerald ever covered. Guys picks on screen more important.. Who cares about your picks. Im way better just give me the feed...

Again, they have contracts to prioritize tracks, and whatever you think of Stronach, he has a lot of pull because he owns a lot of tracks. You're complaining about stuff as if it's ignorance on their part but these are not spur-of-the-moment decisions.

KidCruz
06-07-2016, 04:20 AM
Again, they have contracts to prioritize tracks, and whatever you think of Stronach, he has a lot of pull because he owns a lot of tracks. You're complaining about stuff as if it's ignorance on their part but these are not spur-of-the-moment decisions.

It is totally ignorance and incompetence on the part of TVG and anyone arguing otherwise has never been in a business environment in any line of work. When TVG's higher ups were negotiating the contract with Stronach, they clearly got destroyed at the table. A second year finance major would have negotiated 100 times better.

If you run the "premier" horse racing network/ADW in the country, you CANNOT allow race 2, a 10kN2L claimer at Golden Gate Fields, to supersede the last race at Belmont or Saratoga. It's simply a nonstarter, should never be on a contract signed by TVG. NYRA's last race routinely has 15-25 times as much money depending on the outcome than GGF's 2nd race. To show GGF's race is to piss off 85-95 percent of the people watching your station and betting through your ADW. NO WELL RUN COMPANY WOULD DO THIS!

They got their pants pulled down at the negotiating table with Stronach and deserve every bit of criticism they get for their incompetence.

Pensacola Pete
06-23-2016, 08:33 PM
TVG's business model is and always has been built on the needs and wants of the recreational players and people who for whatever reason don't/can't shop around for the best ADW. Recreational players like to listen to the talking heads, like the site to be easy to remember, and would rather have coverage of the major tracks (that will allow TVG to cover them) than sites like Emerald Downs and its endless parade of 5 horse fields, $6.40 payouts, and S-0 horses wiring the field.

Tom
06-23-2016, 11:09 PM
Their business model is based on maximizing their profits. Nothing wrong with that.

Wonderlander
06-29-2016, 08:39 PM
The in-play has got worse n worse. anytime race gets close to stretch when its supposed to be exciting i see cancelled money, 1.01

Wonderlander
07-02-2016, 08:15 PM
New trend is for Woodbine and Monumouth to always run side by side. Makes so much sense!!!

no breathalyzer
10-14-2016, 07:19 PM
probably not too many really care here .. but not showing Hawthorne's Fall Meet at all on either TVG or TVG2 is disgraceful .. another reason having them as the only choice is bad.. what a joke.. yet this clown station/company has no problem showing Will Rodger Downs today.. who handled under $900 in their win pool in the 11th race.. give me a ****ing break bozo's

no breathalyzer
10-14-2016, 07:24 PM
there is no ****ing reason for this.. i don't care if you don't make a dime on carrying the feed.. you make a killing on everything else you do there!.. how about do something for the horse players or the good of the game.. i haven't used tvg to bet in yrs and converted some serious betters away from that dump... things like this is why..

lamboguy
10-14-2016, 07:44 PM
there is TVG1 and TVG2. if you open an account with TVG you get both of them for FREE right on their website. if they have to show Gulfstream over Belmont on TVG1, you can get Belmont live on TVG2.

i happen to think they are great for horse racing and have managed to keep the game alive right on their backs.

upthecreek
10-14-2016, 08:10 PM
there is TVG1 and TVG2. if you open an account with TVG you get both of them for FREE right on their website. if they have to show Gulfstream over Belmont on TVG1, you can get Belmont live on TVG2.

i happen to think they are great for horse racing and have managed to keep the game alive right on their backs.
Not on 4NJbets They took TVG 2 away, told me there was no need for it, showed the same thing most times Morons!

upthecreek
10-14-2016, 08:13 PM
Thank you for contacting TVG. Iím sorry about that. They have removed the TVG2 tab and are only showing the TVG tab. For the most part, they were only showing the same thing, so it has been removed. Iím sorry about that

titans1127
10-14-2016, 10:27 PM
So stupid that they did that. The feed isn't even in HD anymore and depending on the day of the week and time of day, TVG2 shows completely different tracks.

no breathalyzer
10-15-2016, 02:07 AM
i don't need TVG to view online content .. that was not my point.. my point was to show the damn track on my TV instead of a track that handled 900 bucks in the win pool.. like it or not Hawthorne has been around for over 100 yrs.. and it is my home track.. it deserves some f'ing respect

RunForTheRoses
10-15-2016, 09:53 AM
Does anyone have an njbets account and know a workaround to bet out of state? For years I was able to bet out of state just by toggling to New Jersey no matter where I was. I've bet from Las Vegas, New York,etc.

Since around Labor Day you cannot do this, since it is betfair/exchange wagering they now verify the ip address. At first I was able to go to tvg.com and get away with that but now if you go to tvg they will usher you to njbets.

As I work in NYC it would be nice to be able to make an occasional bet from there, also was at Delaware a couple of weeks ago and prefer to bet through the account but I was unable to.

Anyone here successfully dealt with this?

titans1127
10-15-2016, 10:37 AM
Does anyone have an njbets account and know a workaround to bet out of state? For years I was able to bet out of state just by toggling to New Jersey no matter where I was. I've bet from Las Vegas, New York,etc.

Since around Labor Day you cannot do this, since it is betfair/exchange wagering they now verify the ip address. At first I was able to go to tvg.com and get away with that but now if you go to tvg they will usher you to njbets.

As I work in NYC it would be nice to be able to make an occasional bet from there, also was at Delaware a couple of weeks ago and prefer to bet through the account but I was unable to.

Anyone here successfully dealt with this?Maybe a VPN service that could spoof your location to show its in Jersey.

CincyHorseplayer
10-15-2016, 05:56 PM
I started inventing song lyrics Beach Boys style about Brittney Eurton. Good enough for me to watch! :cool:

Parkview_Pirate
01-11-2017, 03:06 PM
Not the biggest TVG fan in the world, but you can get free TimeFormUS pps there, so I've kept the account open.

Today I've logged in for the first time in a couple of months, and the new (and horrible) web interface becomes "mandatory" if you you want online video after 1/17. So, checking it out, I did discover the pop-out video signal is VASTLY improved from the old page, and makes my Twinspires feed look like it's a 1/10th of the resolution.

I don't have the TVG commercial feed since I don't have satellite or cable, but the stream from GP today looks like HD on their new online stream. Very nice.... :ThmbUp:

SandyW
01-14-2017, 01:17 AM
No Oaklawn Park on TVG today, opening day, what a disgrace.

Parkview_Pirate
01-14-2017, 04:13 AM
No Oaklawn Park on TVG today, opening day, what a disgrace.

I saw OP out there earlier today, and they have the results listed, so I think you could bet it.

However, I did notice that the video couldn't be had online - "no video link available", and the results show the races were carried on the main TVG signal but not online streaming.

They are quickly getting to the point I'll be closing my account, in spite of carrying the TimeFormUS PPs for free....

upthecreek
01-14-2017, 07:19 AM
No Oaklawn Park on TVG today, opening day, what a disgrace.
They were on TVG2 If you have a TVG acct., you should be able to watch on website. I have a 4NJBet acct, but they removed TVG2 from the site

cj
01-14-2017, 02:47 PM
No Oaklawn Park on TVG today, opening day, what a disgrace.

Races 1-5 were on TVG2, 6-9 were on TVG.

upthecreek
01-14-2017, 02:51 PM
Races 1-5 were on TVG2, 6-9 were on TVG.
The problem is TVG is in 65 million homes and TVG2 is in 6 :lol: I cant get it at all in NJ where I am

arw629
01-14-2017, 04:45 PM
The problem is TVG is in 65 million homes and TVG2 is in 6 :lol: I cant get it at all in NJ where I am

I'm one of the lucky 6!

RunForTheRoses
01-14-2017, 05:31 PM
Sucks no Oaklaqn today on TVG, can't stream here and no option for TVG2. Am in a contest that has some races there, lots of bombs, I wonder what the track condition is.

SandyW
01-14-2017, 08:03 PM
Sucks no Oaklaqn today on TVG, can't stream here and no option for TVG2. Am in a contest that has some races there, lots of bombs, I wonder what the track condition is.

You can go to the Oaklawn Park website any time night or day and click on their webcam and you will be able to see what the weather is.

Parkview_Pirate
01-15-2017, 08:52 AM
Sucks no Oaklaqn today on TVG, can't stream here and no option for TVG2. Am in a contest that has some races there, lots of bombs, I wonder what the track condition is.

If you click on "Watch Live" at the top of the new menu interface online, AND Oaklawn is coming up as a live race, you can then watch it.

However, for TVG to carry a track live but NOT offer the live stream is inexcusable. How are you supposed to see the post parade or paddock shots? Played the last race at OP yesterday, but since SA's race ran over the post parade, had to "get by" with simply seeing one live race cut to another live race.

So, with middle finger firmly extended to TVG, will be closing out my account ASAP.

upthecreek
01-15-2017, 09:28 AM
If you click on "Watch Live" at the top of the new menu interface online, AND Oaklawn is coming up as a live race, you can then watch it.

However, for TVG to carry a track live but NOT offer the live stream is inexcusable. How are you supposed to see the post parade or paddock shots? Played the last race at OP yesterday, but since SA's race ran over the post parade, had to "get by" with simply seeing one live race cut to another live race.

So, with middle finger firmly extended to TVG, will be closing out my account ASAP.
It's the same for CD, TVG2, no streaming

tcasolo
01-15-2017, 10:04 AM
My cable company had HRTV and now via the old contract is locked into TVG2. How stupid that I get the TVG2 without regular TVG.

I've communicated with the powers to be at Armstrong Cable and they could care less.

upthecreek
01-16-2017, 12:55 PM
25 mins to 1st @ Aqu and both the website and phone wagering are down

MNslappy
03-11-2017, 03:01 PM
When did TVG change their free PPs policy?

https://www.tvg.com/handicapping/free-pp

Here's how to enjoy Free Past Performances:

You must be a registered TVG account holder to qualify.*
You must use your TVG account to purchase any of the following track cards.
(Purchases made with your credit or debit card are not be eligible for the program):
TVG Full PPs
TVG Basic PPs
TVG Watch and Wager PPs
TimeformUS PPs (Single track & day pass)
You must wager AT LEAST $10 on the track card you purchased or $25 on any track if you purchased the TimeformUS Daily Pass.
Once your wager is confirmed your account will be reimbursed by 7AM PT the next day

pandy
03-11-2017, 05:31 PM
Just today. Brisnet is back to being the best value.

MNslappy
03-11-2017, 05:37 PM
It's a shame because I really came to love the Timeform PPs. But a $10 minimum per card is unreasonably high. Looks like it'll be back to the free Bris PPs at Twinspires for me most of the time.

thaskalos
03-12-2017, 01:10 AM
If the player doesn't wager at least $10 a card, or at least $25 on a particular track...then he/she doesn't deserve free PPs, IMO.

Mr. Pick 5
03-12-2017, 01:46 AM
If the player doesn't wager at least $10 a card, or at least $25 on a particular track...then he/she doesn't deserve free PPs, IMO.

Couldn't agree more....I wouldn't have an objection if the minimum threshold was higher tbh....what's the use of pp's if you're too cheap to even wager 10 bucks on the track?

Parkview_Pirate
03-12-2017, 01:46 AM
When did TVG change their free PPs policy?

I'd bet money it had to do with numerous users logging in, getting the TFUS PPs, and making a $3 show bet on a race, before heading to another ADW or going on track to make their larger wagers. Hence the promo of the free PP and increased handle was out of whack.

Mr. Pick 5
03-12-2017, 03:29 AM
I'd bet money it had to do with numerous users logging in, getting the TFUS PPs, and making a $3 show bet on a race, before heading to another ADW or going on track to make their larger wagers. Hence the promo of the free PP and increased handle was out of whack.

Good point...that actually makes a lot of sense

NorCalGreg
03-12-2017, 07:37 AM
Couldn't agree more....I wouldn't have an objection if the minimum threshold was higher tbh....what's the use of pp's if you're too cheap to even wager 10 bucks on the track?

You're forgetting that many in our dwindling ranks are retirees...playing a $4 double on weekends may be their entire entertainment budget.

The $2 bettor was once the backbone of this industry---now "this industry" wishes they would just go away.

upthecreek
03-12-2017, 08:38 AM
If the player doesn't wager at least $10 a card, or at least $25 on a particular track...then he/she doesn't deserve free PPs, IMO.
That's the attitude that's hurting the whole industry,the hell with the small time bettor

thaskalos
03-12-2017, 09:38 AM
That's the attitude that's hurting the whole industry,the hell with the small time bettor

Come on...you can't be serious. If a player can't wager a grand total of $10 over an entire card...he doesn't need past performances. He has already given up the game...whether he knows it or not.

upthecreek
03-12-2017, 10:00 AM
Come on...you can't be serious. If a player can't wager a grand total of $10 over an entire card...he doesn't need past performances. He has already given up the game...whether he knows it or not.
How's bout new people signing up? New players don't jump in betting hundreds or 1000's, they start at $2-5 And besides that for putting up with the worse ADW there is, we should get something for free

EMD4ME
03-12-2017, 10:04 AM
How's bout new people signing up? New players don't jump in betting hundreds or 1000's, they start at $2-5 And besides that for putting up with the worse ADW there is, we should get something for free

I can see that for a race. Seriously. BUT FOR A CARD??? :confused:

EMD4ME
03-12-2017, 10:05 AM
Come on...you can't be serious. If a player can't wager a grand total of $10 over an entire card...he doesn't need past performances. He has already given up the game...whether he knows it or not.

I'm with you :ThmbUp::lol: (Excluding complete beginners)

pandy
03-12-2017, 01:01 PM
It depends how you look at it. I often purchased the $5.99 unlimited for the day and bet the minimum of $10. Now the minimum is $25. I bet every day so that would mean that if I bought the unlimited every day of the year I would have to wager $8800 through PABETS. That's just too much money for me to bet through an ADW that offers no rebates. I'd rather bet that $8800 through Amwager or one of the others that have rebates. I made a complete withdrawal today.

thaskalos
03-12-2017, 04:09 PM
It depends how you look at it. I often purchased the $5.99 unlimited for the day and bet the minimum of $10. Now the minimum is $25. I bet every day so that would mean that if I bought the unlimited every day of the year I would have to wager $8800 through PABETS. That's just too much money for me to bet through an ADW that offers no rebates. I'd rather bet that $8800 through Amwager or one of the others that have rebates. I made a complete withdrawal today.

If I were an expert every-day player, like you...then I would bet the $25 a day with TVG, just to secure the PPs that I need. I mean...let's break it down. A $25 wager per day at TVG gets you the whole day's PPs for free. How much of a "rebate" does the same $25 wager get you at Amwager?

cj
03-12-2017, 06:37 PM
Obviously I work for TimeformUS, so feel free to take that into account. TVG has to pay for the PPs people use. They aren't free from us. What does TVG get from a $2 bet on average? I'm guessing 10 to 15 cents?

The TimeformUS access offers a lot more than what BRIS does, the PDF file. Last I checked that hadn't changed. Why should TVG give a person premium, live PPs for 15 cents that they are charged much more for? I don't know what the rate is but I'm sure it isn't 15 cents or anything close to that.

Don't get me wrong, I wish they'd keep up the $2 bet thing. It is better for me personally, but I can't knock them for the change. Too many people were probably taking advantage of it while making the majority of their bets elsewhere.

Tom
03-12-2017, 07:04 PM
Let's be serious here.
BRIS figs vs TFUS figs????

TFUS is the T-Bone STeak.
BRIS is the bone. :pound:

pandy
03-12-2017, 07:39 PM
If I were an expert every-day player, like you...then I would bet the $25 a day with TVG, just to secure the PPs that I need. I mean...let's break it down. A $25 wager per day at TVG gets you the whole day's PPs for free. How much of a "rebate" does the same $25 wager get you at Amwager?

It's certainly not a bad deal if you rely on the Timeform pps, which are good. I rely mainly on bris, my brain must be hardwired for the old drf style pps.

By the way, for anyone who uses the Timeform pps, in my opinion, the best feature, by far, is the early/late pace figures. In my Power Pace Handicapping book I donated a chapter on how to use those figures the same way I use my Power Pace figures. The Timeform early/late pace figures are potent if used properly.

Murph
03-12-2017, 08:04 PM
You're forgetting that many in our dwindling ranks are retirees...playing a $4 double on weekends may be their entire entertainment budget.

The $2 bettor was once the backbone of this industry---now "this industry" wishes they would just go away.
The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

thaskalos
03-12-2017, 09:42 PM
The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

F - ME? :lol:

Look, Murph:

If it's beyond your means to wager a total of $10 on an entire racing card...then, you are the least of my concerns in this game. IMO...you are ALREADY "gone".

pandy
03-12-2017, 10:59 PM
The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

I don't think there's a prejudice against smaller bettors. There are a lot of tracks that would love to have an extra 50,000 to 100,000 players who bet $10 a day. It's simply a business decision and it makes sense. There are four online past performance companies, and there's no way that they can make a good profit just by selling past performances. Probably most people who purchase the Timeform pps were betting at other ADW's, so this is a way to at least get some extra money bet through their own online racebook. A better way would be to offer free pps, and, competitive rebates. Then they'd really get the handle up.

Funny how the racing industry still hasn't figured this out. There are two driving forces to handle, full, competitive fields, and low takeout (or big rebates). I just got rebates back about a month ago and since then I've bet almost ten times more than I did the prior month.

thaskalos
03-12-2017, 11:49 PM
I don't think there's a prejudice against smaller bettors. There are a lot of tracks that would love to have an extra 50,000 to 100,000 players who bet $10 a day. It's simply a business decision and it makes sense. There are four online past performance companies, and there's no way that they can make a good profit just by selling past performances. Probably most people who purchase the Timeform pps were betting at other ADW's, so this is a way to at least get some extra money bet through their own online racebook. A better way would be to offer free pps, and, competitive rebates. Then they'd really get the handle up.

Funny how the racing industry still hasn't figured this out. There are two driving forces to handle, full, competitive fields, and low takeout (or big rebates). I just got rebates back about a month ago and since then I've bet almost ten times more than I did the prior month.

When we say "industry"...we imply that the enterprise is regulated by a unified governing body, which cares about what the future holds for the particular business. There is no such thing in horse racing. In this game, we have the horsemen on one side...whose only concern is to secure the biggest piece of the pie for themselves...regardless of what the future may bring. And on the other side, we have the track operators...who are just dying for the opportunity to shut down the horses...so they could be in the casino-business full-time.

In a business climate such as this, where greed is the only driving force...it's only natural that the ADWs would get a little greedy themselves...and reserve the "freebies" for their more active customers. It's the sign of the times. The notion that "the $2 bettor is the backbone of this industry" is a nice-sounding catch-phrase...but it has never been true. The $2 bettor was welcomed in the old days...because, although he bet next to nothing...he still contributed something in the way of parking, admission and concession-stand to the track coffers. Now that the grandstands at the track are empty...the tracks can do without the player who goes to the track with $10 in his pocket. And, evidently...the ADWs are starting to feel the same way. It wouldn't surprise me if the rest of the ADWs enact similar "free PP" wagering requirements in the near future.

EMD4ME
03-13-2017, 12:23 AM
The resident guru's don't care about guys like me anymore than track management. They look down their nose at the limited budgets and are almost offended when a small bettor can eke out an occasional winner.

I think the real reason to want the "poor, old buggers" out is that might make it easier for some of the "big hitter sharks" to win more money. They don't have long to wait for us all to be gone.

"If I can't bet $10 I don't deserve free PPs" ?!? / F - U

I don't know if I offended you Murph but please allow me to elaborate:

IMHO, if an experienced player downloads a card, expects free PPs AND can't churn $10 in handle on that card, then that is just sad.

Yes, I understand that people are on fixed incomes. Both my parents are. I give my mother supplemental income for her "entertainment". Even if your ADW has $20 in it and you're a $2 bettor, you can easily churn that $20 into $100 with any minimal success on a 9 race NYRA card. ($2 parlay, .10 supers, $1 ex boxes, .50 Tri's, $1 DD's etc.).

I would never mock someone who bets that way. I commend them for showing restraint within a budget. What I am saying is, I don't find a $10 handle requirement to be such a big requirement in exchange for free PPs. That's a $2 show bet on half the races!

Murph
03-13-2017, 10:25 PM
F - ME? :lol:

Look, Murph:

NO, not you personally, Thask. I (wrongly) took your comment out of context. I just feel like I deserve anything that is currently promoted by the tracks and ADW's. There is no room for any more price increase at the level I play.

One of the issues I face day after day is finding a play that is worth a $20 wager. I look every day and play almost as often. It feels like I'm tuning in an old UHF TV station. I spend more time adjusting the antenna than enjoying the programs. Every time I find a comfortable spot the picture gets fuzzy and I have to get up and adjust again.

If the price of PP information continues to increase on any level, I can only bet less. I've expressed my concerns with my current data provider. BTW - thanks for getting me all stirred up!:jump:

MNslappy
03-13-2017, 11:12 PM
One of the issues I face day after day is finding a play that is worth a $20 wager.

Exactly why this $10 minimum bothered me. I download cards all the time that don't end up having a single race I feel offers enough value to be worthy of betting. It's a lot easier to swallow throwing down $2 on a race in which I would normally pass, in order to at least cover the minimum, than having to bet $10 on a race I would normally pass, or $5 on two races I would normally pass, etc. It's not that I'm "too cheap" as someone here put it. Too selective? Maybe....

I just wish TVG could've come up with a happier medium than $10/card.

pandy
03-14-2017, 12:38 AM
Exactly why this $10 minimum bothered me. I download cards all the time that don't end up having a single race I feel offers enough value to be worthy of betting. It's a lot easier to swallow throwing down $2 on a race in which I would normally pass, in order to at least cover the minimum, than having to bet $10 on a race I would normally pass, or $5 on two races I would normally pass, etc. It's not that I'm "too cheap" as someone here put it. Too selective? Maybe....

I just wish TVG could've come up with a happier medium than $10/card.


Yep, that's the thing. I've gone through thousands of cards over the years without finding a single horse that I like on the card, I get where you're coming from.

cj
03-14-2017, 11:31 AM
Yep, that's the thing. I've gone through thousands of cards over the years without finding a single horse that I like on the card, I get where you're coming from.

I understand this. All I can say is that there is a monthly option for $69 a month, every track every day. That is $2.33 a day. If someone can't afford $2 a day for that amount of information, so be it. It is pretty tough to try to cater to people like that and still stay in business.

pandy
03-14-2017, 01:10 PM
I understand this. All I can say is that there is a monthly option for $69 a month, every track every day. That is $2.33 a day. If someone can't afford $2 a day for that amount of information, so be it. It is pretty tough to try to cater to people like that and still stay in business.



True, I can't argue with that. I do wonder sometimes if the actual cost of past performances was one of the many contributing factors in the decline of racing. In the early days of the internet, many, if not most, horseplayers did not have access to the internet, yet the cost of purchasing DRF or the Harness Racing PPs was getting to the point where it was making it an easier decision for people to take the bus to Atlantic City. I know many people who bought the Racing Form and Sports Eye every day for years, but then the cost went from $60 a month to $300 a month and it seemed like maybe the racing industry was making it too costly to get involved. If the tracks had any sense they would have banded together and put out their own past performances at a break even cost, just to get people to keep betting. But, betting never seemed to be something they were interested in marketing.

Murph
03-14-2017, 05:40 PM
It is pretty tough to try to cater to people like that and still stay in business.

What do you mean by "people like that"?

Murph
03-14-2017, 05:55 PM
If the tracks had any sense they would have banded together and put out their own past performances at a break even cost, just to get people to keep betting. But, betting never seemed to be something they were interested in marketing.

Especially for people who come to the track and play from home year after year, playing at different levels through the years and from month to month. I think $1 programs for live race cards are fairly priced. Online documents cost a fraction of printed material to serve. I feel like right now I am paying as much as I can sustain for PP and database information. ($100+ pr/mo)

Frankly the price, as it stands, is more than the info is worth to me on a daily basis. I will wager between 5K and 10K this year with much of my wagering level being determined by churn. If my data cost rise again, there will be no churn for an unknown period of adjustment to my play.

Where does it end?

cj
03-14-2017, 06:24 PM
What do you mean by "people like that"?

I thought it was pretty clear, people that can't afford $2.33 a day. I'm not knocking anyone like that at all. I've been there at times in my life. When I was I didn't bet and I didn't buy PPs.

If you can't bet $10 a card (or $25 for the whole day) OR pay $2.33 a day for PPs for every day at every track, how much of a "customer" are you really for horse racing? Companies have to do what is best for their bottom line, not cater to people that aren't really customers in the first place.

Like I said, look at the TVG example again. People could bet $2 and get free PPs for the track they bet. The typical player that was doing the minimum to get the PPs is probably averaging a return of $1.60 so the PPs are costing them 40 cents. I don't know what TVG pays for the PPs, lets assume it is $1.50 a card. It could be 2 or 3, I really don't know. But at the 1.50, TVG might make 15 cents off a $2 bet, then turn around and have to pay $1.50 to TimeformUS. In what world does it make sense for them to pay $1.35 for PPs for a person to bet $2 and leave?

Even at $10 they are probably only getting 75 cents or so. It isn't like they are raking a customer over the coals. What they are doing is giving the perks to actual customers, not people that bet $2 and then go bet the rest of the day somewhere else. Unfortunately there are people that are lumped in with that group that just aren't betting at TVG or anywhere else. But again, those people aren't really customers. Maybe someday they would be but that is a financial decision. Is it worth it to lose money to try to cultivate the $2 bettor into a real customer? I suspect the numbers said no and that is what drove the change.

Tom
03-14-2017, 08:23 PM
F - ME? :lol:

Look, Murph:

If it's beyond your means to wager a total of $10 on an entire racing card...then, you are the least of my concerns in this game. IMO...you are ALREADY "gone".

Why would any small bettor give a crap what you think about them?

Tom
03-14-2017, 08:30 PM
It's certainly not a bad deal if you rely on the Timeform pps, which are good. I rely mainly on bris, my brain must be hardwired for the old drf style pps.

By the way, for anyone who uses the Timeform pps, in my opinion, the best feature, by far, is the early/late pace figures. In my Power Pace Handicapping book I donated a chapter on how to use those figures the same way I use my Power Pace figures. The Timeform early/late pace figures are potent if used properly.

I love the Pace Figs and the E/L figs in TFUs, but have no use for the PP format. I prefer the old style where you see more than one horse at a time. CJ's old PaceFigures program was the state of the art IMHO.

Is your P/P book out now? It's on my bucket list.

thaskalos
03-14-2017, 08:41 PM
Why would any small bettor give a crap what you think about them?

Murph, in a prior post, said "F - U" to me...after suggesting that the "resident gurus here" want the small bettors out of the game, so the "big hitters" could win more money. I knew that Murph was referring to me...because I was the one who suggested that the free pps should only be for the active players. I have nothing against the bettor who doesn't even have $10 in his pocket when he starts betting...and I certainly don't want him out of the game. But, IMO, he doesn't qualify to be called an "active bettor"...and he doesn't deserve the free pps.

You and Murph are free to not give a crap about what I say...and I am free to not give a crap about what YOU guys say. But we should ALL have the right to voice our opinions here.

Tom
03-14-2017, 08:50 PM
You and Murph are free to not give a crap about what I say...and I am free to not give a crap about what YOU guys say. But we should ALL have the right to voice our opinions here.

Chill, that comment was tongue-n-cheek.

thaskalos
03-14-2017, 08:52 PM
Chill, that comment was tongue-n-cheek.

You fooled me. :headbanger:

coachv30
03-14-2017, 09:32 PM
It depends how you look at it. I often purchased the $5.99 unlimited for the day and bet the minimum of $10. Now the minimum is $25. I bet every day so that would mean that if I bought the unlimited every day of the year I would have to wager $8800 through PABETS. That's just too much money for me to bet through an ADW that offers no rebates. I'd rather bet that $8800 through Amwager or one of the others that have rebates. I made a complete withdrawal today.

Pandy....

As a VIP member at PA Bets, I get a 2% rebate of my wagers at the end of each month from TVG. Unless...you're talking about more frequent rebates.

12/ALL/ALL
03-15-2017, 04:16 AM
I thought it was pretty clear, people that can't afford $2.33 a day. I'm not knocking anyone like that at all. I've been there at times in my life. When I was I didn't bet and I didn't buy PPs.

If you can't bet $10 a card (or $25 for the whole day) OR pay $2.33 a day for PPs for every day at every track, how much of a "customer" are you really for horse racing? Companies have to do what is best for their bottom line, not cater to people that aren't really customers in the first place.

Like I said, look at the TVG example again. People could bet $2 and get free PPs for the track they bet. The typical player that was doing the minimum to get the PPs is probably averaging a return of $1.60 so the PPs are costing them 40 cents. I don't know what TVG pays for the PPs, lets assume it is $1.50 a card. It could be 2 or 3, I really don't know. But at the 1.50, TVG might make 15 cents off a $2 bet, then turn around and have to pay $1.50 to TimeformUS. In what world does it make sense for them to pay $1.35 for PPs for a person to bet $2 and leave?

Even at $10 they are probably only getting 75 cents or so. It isn't like they are raking a customer over the coals. What they are doing is giving the perks to actual customers, not people that bet $2 and then go bet the rest of the day somewhere else. Unfortunately there are people that are lumped in with that group that just aren't betting at TVG or anywhere else. But again, those people aren't really customers. Maybe someday they would be but that is a financial decision. Is it worth it to lose money to try to cultivate the $2 bettor into a real customer? I suspect the numbers said no and that is what drove the change.

Agree entirely. To expect PP's comps for betting really small amounts of money seems unrealistic. An alternative strategy might be to save up your betting money for a week or two and make a modest deposit at an ADW. Spend all of your available handicapping time on just the two free TimeformUS races available. Be selective, search for pari-mutual value, and be prepared to just pass on both races if no value is available. TB racing is so complex and layered that no handicapper has ever spent too much time breaking down a race. We've all been small bettors at one time or another.

pandy
03-15-2017, 07:18 AM
I love the Pace Figs and the E/L figs in TFUs, but have no use for the PP format. I prefer the old style where you see more than one horse at a time. CJ's old PaceFigures program was the state of the art IMHO.

Is your P/P book out now? It's on my bucket list.


I'm the same way, I like the old drf style pp. Yes, Power Pace Handicapping is out and comes with a program that works with bris single data files. In the book I also have a chapter on how to use those E/L Timeform figs in the same way as the Power Pace figs. Even though the rankings may not be the same as the Power Pace Figures, it is the same methodology applied, and the Timeform E/L figs work great when used the way I show in the book. They are very good numbers.

pandy
03-15-2017, 07:20 AM
Pandy....

As a VIP member at PA Bets, I get a 2% rebate of my wagers at the end of each month from TVG. Unless...you're talking about more frequent rebates.


I didn't know that was available, probably because I never bet that heavily through the PAbets ADW. Thanks for the info.

Murph
03-15-2017, 09:11 AM
Agree entirely. To expect PP's comps for betting really small amounts of money seems unrealistic. An alternative strategy might be to save up your betting money for a week or two and make a modest deposit at an ADW. Spend all of your available handicapping time on just the two free TimeformUS races available. Be selective, search for pari-mutual value, and be prepared to just pass on both races if no value is available. TB racing is so complex and layered that no handicapper has ever spent too much time breaking down a race. We've all been small bettors at one time or another.

The thing is 12, PP info is already free to all who wager on the ADW I use. In addition, if you make just a single $2 wager you get full blown PDF Ultra PP's. Wager for a couple hundred a month for awhile and they will give you access to the video replay library. Our friends in Lexington are not giving away anything except a greater opportunity to make a better wager on their ADW platform. We need more services like these to help keep the players alive.

I hope you understand as well that CJ has a vested interest in increasing the price for his PP product. Anyone working to increase the price of wagering for anybody is not fighting the battle from my point of view.

People who are interested in spending more on PP info have many options to do so, I just don't need to be dragged along with them.

cj
03-15-2017, 02:42 PM
The thing is 12, PP info is already free to all who wager on the ADW I use. In addition, if you make just a single $2 wager you get full blown PDF Ultra PP's. Wager for a couple hundred a month for awhile and they will give you access to the video replay library. Our friends in Lexington are not giving away anything except a greater opportunity to make a better wager on their ADW platform. We need more services like these to help keep the players alive.

I hope you understand as well that CJ has a vested interest in increasing the price for his PP product. Anyone working to increase the price of wagering for anybody is not fighting the battle from my point of view.

People who are interested in spending more on PP info have many options to do so, I just don't need to be dragged along with them.

As I already said, this doesn't help TimeformUS one iota, it in fact hurts. TVG pays us for all the cards customers download. What they charge customers is up to them. This will obviously hurt our sales. So please, if you are going to talk about my best interests, at least understand the situation.

coachv30
03-15-2017, 07:28 PM
I didn't know that was available, probably because I never bet that heavily through the PAbets ADW. Thanks for the info.

I don't know if you were aware but Darren Zocalli is actually the customer relations person now at TVG.

Murph
03-15-2017, 08:21 PM
I'm trying to understand the entire situation, CJ. All I can see is the price going up. I have no argument with your products. I'm sorry they are at the center of this issue.

cj
03-15-2017, 09:19 PM
I'm trying to understand the entire situation, CJ. All I can see is the price going up. I have no argument with your products. I'm sorry they are at the center of this issue.

We are the wholesaler to TVG. They pay us a flat rate per PP sold through the TVG store. What they charge customers is up to them. They charged a $2 bet, now they charge $10 total bets. We get the same fee per PP regardless. I imagine less will be sold so we will make less. I hope that helps.

Murph
03-15-2017, 10:31 PM
We are the wholesaler to TVG. They pay us a flat rate per PP sold through the TVG store. What they charge customers is up to them. They charged a $2 bet, now they charge $10 total bets. We get the same fee per PP regardless. I imagine less will be sold so we will make less. I hope that helps.
Thank you, that clears up your position perfectly. What remains is the fact that a major ADW is making a push to SKYROCKET PP pricing for everyday bettors. You are completely dismissive of the point I am trying to make.

I expect that you are just doing your job.

cj
03-16-2017, 01:04 AM
Thank you, that clears up your position perfectly. What remains is the fact that a major ADW is making a push to SKYROCKET PP pricing for everyday bettors. You are completely dismissive of the point I am trying to make.

I expect that you are just doing your job.


I understand your point, I just don't agree with it. What I've posted here has nothing to do with me doing my job. I wish TVG would give them away to everyone for free and still pay us. That would be ideal for me.

I think TVG is doing what they think is best for TVG. It is as simple as that. The decision isn't good for you and it isn't good for me. I'm just saying I understand the decision, nothing more. Not one soul I work with or for has mentioned this to me in any official or unofficial capacity.

PhantomOnTour
08-16-2017, 05:18 PM
Their site says: Currently Down For Maintenance

Anyone have any more info on this...??

oughtoh
08-16-2017, 05:27 PM
Just went in without a problem

PhantomOnTour
08-20-2017, 02:53 PM
Just went in without a problem

The site is back up but the format is now completely convoluted.
Why would they update their site in the middle of the two most popular meets in the country?

RunForTheRoses
08-28-2017, 05:27 PM
With the altered website I received an email crediting me a few dollars under the old wager rewards system. Does anyone know what the new wager rewards system will be?
It really is a joke living in New Jersey where it is the only game in town. I see BetPtc and the new Thorograph wagering rewards and it totally sucks to not be able to participate, would be a big deal breaker as far as winning or at least losing a lot less.

RunForTheRoses
09-03-2017, 08:24 PM
Sportstec TVGS tote is down, great MFin timing as I just settled into a labor Day Weekend Sunday night and can't bet.