Stakes Winner Wins Maiden Race at Belmont

[Ocala Mike]

Just when you thought you could rely on the accuracy of past performances:

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/controversial-win-at-belmont-by-shipper-from-china/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

[Tom]

Amazing.
This game never ceases to amaze me.
We can't time races, we are not sure how far the horses run, and now we are
not even sure if they won or not.

I am assuming we know it was a horse?

[johnhenry81]

Thats disappointing to hear as the game continues to see defectors. I actually played the horse based on his NZ sire (St Reims) who won many a mile and a quarter and mile and a half stakes races, and those slow but steady Pletcher works.

[AltonKelsey]

I figured the horse was a putover, but had no idea it was this bad. Should be massive fines imposed for this.

[Valuist]

I was playing in a head to head, and the opponent had used the horse. That got me to look closer, and being by a NZ bred, had to think he'd improve moving back to turf. He took quite a bit of $$ in his "lone" (US) start. I lost the head to head matchup, but did end up betting the horse.

I remember thinking there was something odd about him. I had never heard of the stallion, and getting bet below 5-1 on dirt in his previous race and Pletcher trained.

[green80]

This is not unheard of. I know that a few years ago that Texas and Oklahoma had a few "bush tracks" that were not recognized. I once bet a maiden first time starter (according to the form) at LaD after I had heard that he had won several races at bush tracks in OK. He won easily. With these horses that appear to be first time starters you just have to have more info.

A lot of states in the south had these bush tracks before paramutual wagering was legal. I went to one in Texas (before legal betting there) where there was what looked like a couple of thousand people in attendance.

[Valuist]

This is not unheard of. I know that a few years ago that Texas and Oklahoma had a few "bush tracks" that were not recognized. I once bet a maiden first time starter (according to the form) at LaD after I had heard that he had won several races at bush tracks in OK. He won easily. With these horses that appear to be first time starters you just have to have more info.

A lot of states in the south had these bush tracks before paramutual wagering was legal. I went to one in Texas (before legal betting there) where there was what looked like a couple of thousand people in attendance.

I think that's apples and oranges. According to the article, the stakes race the horse won in China was worth about $50k USD. Not too many purses like that at the bush tracks.

[AltonKelsey]

Doesn't matter if he won a race on Mars for a 3 cent purse.

Makes NYRA look like turkeys. Makes the owners look like crooks.

I'll give Pletcher the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[Not4Love]

Now another reason why I don't play NYRA. Pletchers license should be suspended Until this thing is reviewed. Maybe the FBI should take a look.

[cj]

Doesn't matter if he won a race on Mars for a 3 cent purse.

Makes NYRA look like turkeys. Makes the owners look like crooks.

I'll give Pletcher the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

He first raced at Gulfstream, shouldn't that track have caught it first?

[Fager Fan]

Doesn't matter if he won a race on Mars for a 3 cent purse.

Makes NYRA look like turkeys. Makes the owners look like crooks.

I'll give Pletcher the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Why give Pletcher a pass? He knew as well as the owners this horse's race record, and he's the one who entered the horse in maiden races.

It's incredible that someone did a story on this without actually asking Pletcher why he entered a winner in a maiden event?

[iamt]

Doesn't this have to fall to the Jockey Club, and their policy of only recognising races conducted by the other Chinese Body.

There were articles written about the hors before he raced referencing his wins, it was known that he had started, but a decision/policy exists where those races aren't recognised as official races.

The policy is the issue, not the actions of GP, NYRA or Pletcher.

[CosmicWon]

Wouldn't that look worse, for a horse to show one maiden race in its PPs, be entered in some ALW and then win at even higher odds??

Fact is, this is not a TAP problem or a NYRA/GP problem or a TDN problem that the horse ran as a maiden twice when it had won before. The ONLY entity culpable in this is The Jockey Club as it controls the data and regulates which jurisdictions/countries get denoted in North American cataloging and past performances. Period.

Haven't you ever seen the beef at the end of some years where one stallion is over/under credited with purse money affecting his ranking on the Sire Lists? It's because Equibase/Equineline Sire Lists differ from Bloodhorse or TDN in how it calculates the purses from Asian countries including Japan and China.

This is the same situation. Even if the stewards, or Todd and the owners had told everyone and their brother (which they kind of did via the Jan article on the owners) the horse is a multiple winner, there is NO way those Chinese races would have or will show up on ANY North American data produced using Equibase until Jockey Club decides to make that change with its cataloging policy.

You don't like what happened here? Make it know to Jockey Club and Equibase and hold them accountable for fixing data integrity issue. THEY are the ONLY ones with that capability to do so in North America.

[VeryOldMan]

Doesn't this have to fall to the Jockey Club, and their policy of only recognising races conducted by the other Chinese Body.
Agreed. The horse met the "metes and bounds" of the maiden condition as set forth. So wrong re the wagering public, but it illustrates where the wagering public stands in the hierarchy.

[Grits]

Agreed. The horse met the "metes and bounds" of the maiden condition as set forth. So wrong re the wagering public, but it illustrates where the wagering public stands in the hierarchy.

He did meet them. However, with the previous TDN story noted in Finley's piece, he, of course, was aware of Mongolian Prince's past performances. Still, think about it, gentlemen, it's CHINA. It's not like he faced better, this, plus, with air quality, the horse is lucky he was able to breathe beyond 4 furlongs. (Had those races been in the pps, I'd have bet him for this reason alone.) :lol:

Would Finley have been this determined to imply a rousing coup was pulled off by NYRA, Pletcher, and owners had the horse lost his race on Sunday by a nose? Particularly when, in his last at GP on dirt, Finley was mum when Mongolian Prince was trounced in that maiden outing!

I kinda don't think so. This was an opportunity for:

... Finley, Watchdog, LLC.

Another piece I read indicated only 4 horses from China have raced in the U.S. Maybe this one incident, will cause enough of a ruckus for the Jockey Club to look into their regulations. Meanwhile, my friends, get used to where you are in the pecking order, as bettors, this is not changing. It never will. Choose your battles wisely.

[Ocala Mike]

I wonder: If you catch a winner shipping in from China, do you feel like you need another winner 30 minutes later?

[rastajenk]

Not just bettors, although that's always the focus around here. I imagine the owners of the other maidens in that race might be a little irked, too. But what can you do?

[Grits]

I wonder: If you catch a winner shipping in from China, do you feel like you need another winner 30 minutes later?

No, O'Mike!! If I'd known he crossed the finished line first in CHINA, I'd have bet my house on him, I don't care if it took a search light to find him at GP. Dude's got a powerful set of lungs, that's all I figure. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[dilanesp]

Wouldn't that look worse, for a horse to show one maiden race in its PPs, be entered in some ALW and then win at even higher odds??

Fact is, this is not a TAP problem or a NYRA/GP problem or a TDN problem that the horse ran as a maiden twice when it had won before. The ONLY entity culpable in this is The Jockey Club as it controls the data and regulates which jurisdictions/countries get denoted in North American cataloging and past performances. Period.

Haven't you ever seen the beef at the end of some years where one stallion is over/under credited with purse money affecting his ranking on the Sire Lists? It's because Equibase/Equineline Sire Lists differ from Bloodhorse or TDN in how it calculates the purses from Asian countries including Japan and China.

This is the same situation. Even if the stewards, or Todd and the owners had told everyone and their brother (which they kind of did via the Jan article on the owners) the horse is a multiple winner, there is NO way those Chinese races would have or will show up on ANY North American data produced using Equibase until Jockey Club decides to make that change with its cataloging policy.

You don't like what happened here? Make it know to Jockey Club and Equibase and hold them accountable for fixing data integrity issue. THEY are the ONLY ones with that capability to do so in North America.

Isn't a trainer who enters a horse representing that the horse meets the eligibility requirements.

The only way this ever doesn't happen is if connections know that licenses are going to be suspended if it does. Blaming the Jockey Club is letting everyone off the hook.

[iamt]

If a trainer wakes up one morning and decides to race is horse against each other at training one morning, does the winner of the "Race" get recognised as a winner??

This is a more extreme example of a similar idea. These were unofficial races in the eyes of the Jockey Club, the result means nothing because they never really happened. They are just a particular fancy workout.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Quote...because he was born in the Southern Hemisphere, Mongolian Prince is considered a 4 year old here, but was classified as a 3 year old in China...end quote.

What has the Southern Hemisphere have to do with age/ time?

[dilanesp]

If a trainer wakes up one morning and decides to race is horse against each other at training one morning, does the winner of the "Race" get recognised as a winner??

This is a more extreme example of a similar idea. These were unofficial races in the eyes of the Jockey Club, the result means nothing because they never really happened. They are just a particular fancy workout.

Actually, I think if you want legalized betting, the answer to your first question should either be "yes" or "the bettors get to find out about it".

Seriously, if you prefer the rule that horses can race without the public knowing about it, let's get rid of legalized betting and allow horsemen to do whatever they want.

But if they want the public's betting money to fund their purses, they need to disclose stuff like this, and when they don't, it should be a very stiff suspension, or even "find another line of work".

[dilanesp]

Quote...because he was born in the Southern Hemisphere, Mongolian Prince is considered a 4 year old here, but was classified as a 3 year old in China...end quote.

What has the Southern Hemisphere have to do with age/ time?

Breeding sesaon. They bring in their spring there, which is our fall. So the horses are a half year younger when measured from January 1.

[iamt]

1/15

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/mongolian-prince-fourth-chinese-raced-horse-in-u-s/

1/18

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/thoroughbred-racing/mongolian-prince/


They weren't trying to hide anything from anyone. The horse's record was known before he raced at Gulfstream.

Again, the issue in all of this is the Jockey club and their policy on recognising Chinese races; not anything that any of the participants have done.

[Stillriledup]

If you did your homework as a horseplayer wouldn't you have known this in advance?

[dilanesp]

1/15

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/mongolian-prince-fourth-chinese-raced-horse-in-u-s/

1/18

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/thoroughbred-racing/mongolian-prince/


They weren't trying to hide anything from anyone. The horse's record was known before he raced at Gulfstream.

Again, the issue in all of this is the Jockey club and their policy on recognising Chinese races; not anything that any of the participants have done.

I don't accept that they weren't "trying to hide anything" until it is established that not one person connected with that horse cashed a winning mutuel ticket on him at 16 to 1.

If anyone did, that's guilt enough for me.

[Fager Fan]

I was wrong in my prior post. I agree this was a JC problem. The trainer must've talked to someone to establish what conditions he was eligible for here and I can't blame him. It was definitely unfair to bettors as a stake or race with a $50k purse isn't some Aiken trial race.

[Tom]

Why give the biggest crook the benefit of the. Doubt?

Why give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt?
Horses racing integrity is it's most important asset.

This is NOT the WWE here....time to act like there is still some integrity left.

[EMD4ME]

Why give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt?
Horses racing integrity is it's most important asset.

This is NOT the WWE here....time to act like there is still some integrity left.

In many races I bet on this winter, it strictly was the WWE. Scripted entertainment.

Now that the racing is more honest, it's a whole lot more fun and profitable. (Except for this 1 put over BUT for the record, I was positively impacted by this winner. However, I'm still not happy about it. Just not right).

[Thomas Roulston]

The new Lebon/Cinzano?

Sort of.

[Alwaysonpoint36]

I was positively impacted by this winner. However, I'm still not happy about it. Just not right).

I have revved up among others and it hurt for all of 10 minutes finding this out. I'm over it but if I had a horse in the race I would be through the roof. Purse money should be taken away at the least. I don't know what else can be done, but this looks real bad.

[iamt]

I don't accept that they weren't "trying to hide anything" until it is established that not one person connected with that horse cashed a winning mutuel ticket on him at 16 to 1.

If anyone did, that's guilt enough for me.


The owners sent a press release to just about all racing media outlets in the country, which was picked up and published by many of them. In fact I would guess that the reason this has become such an issue is the very presence of the press releases stating that it had won races in China.

The facts are, that the horse could have won 20 races where it did but the current Jockey Club rules would still treat the runner as a maiden, no matter how many times connections would point to its record.

[burnsy]

Why give ANYONE the benefit of the doubt?
Horses racing integrity is it's most important asset.

This is NOT the WWE here....time to act like there is still some integrity left.


EXTRA, EXTRA,EXTRA,.....Read all about it!!!!!.....................Tomorrow.... :lol:


(Disclaimer: This must pass The Ministry of Information first.)

[Redbullsnation]

Jesus...can't fault Pletcher here. The blame has to go to NYRA. What a joke they are...

[EMD4ME]

I have revved up among others and it hurt for all of 10 minutes finding this out. I'm over it but if I had a horse in the race I would be through the roof. Purse money should be taken away at the least. I don't know what else can be done, but this looks real bad.

I would be too. Call me obtuse but I though a maiden was a horse who never won before, anywhere.

[Fager Fan]

Jesus...can't fault Pletcher here. The blame has to go to NYRA. What a joke they are...

NYRA? How the hell would they know the horse's pps from China if they weren't at Equibase/Jockey Club? If someone at NYRA did read and remember the press release, and then inquired with the JC, then they'd have been told those races didn't count and he was a maiden here. And this was after the horse had already run another time in the country at another track without those China races counting then either.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's ultimately up to the racing office to make sure a horse is eligible for a race.

A trainer can enter wherever and whomever he wants. Maybe he gets fined if he enters a horse that isn't eligible. But it's the racing office's job to make sure the horses that are going to the gate are actually eligible for the race.

With that said, I don't think I can really fault the racing office in this case. All available records here in the US did not show this horse as a winner in China.

I'm pretty sure online articles don't count as official racing records, and I don't think racing office officials are required to consult the Paulick Report for every horse in the entry box.

[AltonKelsey]

Kind of amazing that with all the people on the NYRA staff, including the on air talent, not one of them read or remembered that article?

I never saw it in the first place.

[Tom]

Obviously, the system doesn't work.
IS it the Jockey Club's responsibility?
Has anyone been fired there?
Have they done ANYTHING to fix the problem since it was discovered?

MY guess......they don't even give crap. This industry is run by the lowest level of competence. And it shows every day.

If you are lazy, dim witted, have no motivation......we have a job for you! :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

That's over the top...even for you... :lol:

[Tom]

Timing, actual distances, now did a horse win.
The game is racing. Are the people who run it aware of that? :rolleyes:

In the REAL world, this kind of crap is just not tolerated.

I just ran a new top. Maybe a big move is coming......;)

[bisket]

Amazing.
This game never ceases to amaze me.
We can't time races, we are not sure how far the horses run, and now we are
not even sure if they won or not.

I am assuming we know it was a horse?
We have to get away from using tats and go with piercings from here on out.... ear rings for maidens, nose rings for an allowance, genitals for grade ones.

[clocker7]

As a westerner growing into the game in the late 1960s, this was common. If a track wasn't recognized, then its records weren't either.

Jon White's favorite horse Turbulator ran at an unrecognized track before running a maiden race at a bullring in 1969. He was the trackman at the latter and knew about it, but I didn't.

Grow a pair.

[Tom]

This isn't the late 60's.

[clocker7]

This isn't the late 60's.
There are anomalies to this sport, but they are rare. Accept that wisdom and move on.

[thespaah]

I figured the horse was a putover, but had no idea it was this bad. Should be massive fines imposed for this.
Yes, but what jurisdiction will impose the fine(s) and against who or which entity will the fine(s) be levied?
The answer I can come up with is to ban horses coming from Mainland China( Excluding Hong Kong) unless the set up of a system where all of any horse that has raced there can have its records verified. If the Chinese government objects, screw 'em. Let them puff out their chests and bluster. Who cares. They are Communists.

[thespaah]

Doesn't matter if he won a race on Mars for a 3 cent purse.

Makes NYRA look like turkeys. Makes the owners look like crooks.

I'll give Pletcher the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
Ok..But if the records are not available, what would you have them do?
Instead yelling THIEF!!!!, produce a solution.....Jeez.

[thespaah]

Quote...because he was born in the Southern Hemisphere, Mongolian Prince is considered a 4 year old here, but was classified as a 3 year old in China...end quote.

What has the Southern Hemisphere have to do with age/ time?
The breeding season is in the opposite end of the year...For example, here in the States, horses are normally foaled from late Feb thru the end of April.
In the southern Hemisphere, horses are foaled from the end of August thru the end of October.
So if a US foal is of say April 2015, its direct So Hemisphere counterpart would already be 4-6 months older.

[thespaah]

The new Lebon/Cinzano?

Sort of.
I remember that like it was yesterday.
I kept the back page of the NY Daily News.....It has a photo of each horse. The Headline said "Is THIS horse THAT horse"

[thespaah]

Jesus...can't fault Pletcher here. The blame has to go to NYRA. What a joke they are...
VBlame NYRA? How so?
What makes you believe NYRA was any more privy to the Chinese race records than anyone else?

[thespaah]

Obviously, the system doesn't work.
IS it the Jockey Club's responsibility?
Has anyone been fired there?
Have they done ANYTHING to fix the problem since it was discovered?

MY guess......they don't even give crap. This industry is run by the lowest level of competence. And it shows every day.

If you are lazy, dim witted, have no motivation......we have a job for you! :rolleyes:
No comment

[Tom]

Then why post a comment?
You are only making my case...... :lol:

[Hambletonian]

There were a couple of horses from Utah that were sent in in California a whiles back. This was even after the majority of fairs became "recognized." Utah was an exception I believe since all it's racing was non wagering (at least officially).

I am going to venture a guess that there are other places where the results don't make it to the international database such that it is, except that very very few of these make it to the US.

One other put over I cam across was quarter horses that raced in match races, particularly in Mexico, that have no PP lines.

[iamt]

Yes, but what jurisdiction will impose the fine(s) and against who or which entity will the fine(s) be levied?
The answer I can come up with is to ban horses coming from Mainland China( Excluding Hong Kong) unless the set up of a system where all of any horse that has raced there can have its records verified. If the Chinese government objects, screw 'em. Let them puff out their chests and bluster. Who cares. They are Communists.

The Horse's records were verified. The Jockey Club only acknowledges one Chinese body as an authority to conduct racing; that authority doesn't recognise where this race was conducted at... as a result the race was not an official Thoroughbred race according to the Chinese body or the Jockey Club's definitions and as a result does not exist.

Everything that has occurred in this case followed the rules in place to the letter.

[SuperPickle]

The Horse's records were verified. The Jockey Club only acknowledges one Chinese body as an authority to conduct racing; that authority doesn't recognise where this race was conducted at... as a result the race was not an official Thoroughbred race according to the Chinese body or the Jockey Club's definitions and as a result does not exist.

Everything that has occurred in this case followed the rules in place to the letter.

OMG the voice of the reason!!!!

This thread morphed into the most PA thread ever. Suspend Pletcher!! Suspend people at the Jockey Club!!! Suspend people at NYRA! Take away the owners licenses!

Or maybe, just maybe a race run that isn't recognized or sanctioned isn't a race.

The best part of this its a one-off. It's not like there's dozens of Chinese horses coming over to race.

Nothing to see here.

[AltonKelsey]

I disagree 100%. You're standing on ceremony when you say the race meet was 'not recognized' as an excuse for ignoring the race.

Out of respect for the paying customer, the horseplayer, there should have been a notation of some sort that this horse had participated in an actual race for purse money.

This is not rocket science.

[Fager Fan]

The breeding season is in the opposite end of the year...For example, here in the States, horses are normally foaled from late Feb thru the end of April.
In the southern Hemisphere, horses are foaled from the end of August thru the end of October.
So if a US foal is of say April 2015, its direct So Hemisphere counterpart would already be 4-6 months older.

Younger, not older. A SA horse brought here to race has the disadvantage of being physically months younger, possibly up to 8-10 months younger.

[Hambletonian]

I disagree 100%. You're standing on ceremony when you say the race meet was 'not recognized' as an excuse for ignoring the race.

Out of respect for the paying customer, the horseplayer, there should have been a notation of some sort that this horse had participated in an actual race for purse money.

This is not rocket science.

"unrecognized racing" was fairly common on the mountain west county fair scene back in the day. if you got a truform program you had the running lines, if using the drf or equibase, no. sometime in the last 15 years or so they started charting the county fairs and now those race lines are included. but match races, and some Utah venues are still not charted.

unrecognized means unrecognized, the races are not considered official for any conditioning purpose. if somebody doesn't chart the race and the race meet is not recognized, what do you expect the DRF, Equibase, or the the track to do?