BANNED Jockey Billy Patin Back

[CryingForTheHorses]

Buzzer Man Billy is back!!.
This guy was caught but never admited to using an electrical device on a horse called Valhol. Spent the last 5 years trying to find a purpose in life.Him and OWNER James Jackson make a great pair....two crooks..Is very different when you abuse your body for self satifaction but when you have to ABUSE a horse for ill gotten gains,That is the bottom of the barrel..CJ this is for you..........These 2 guys are the biggest SCUMBUCKETS of ALL time...makes PVal a saint

[Dancer's Image]

Back where? I've never heard of Billy Patin....got a story? Post it here if you do, please.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
Back where? I've never heard of Billy Patin....got a story? Post it here if you do, please.

He rode in the 5th yesterday at CD for Hackworth. Has another mount tomorrow in the 3rd at CD for Coates.

Although 5 years ago, you can probably find a story with google.

[Dancer's Image]

Bill W,
You have mistaken me for someone with ambition and initiative. I'm the guy sitting in the recliner with the "Don't ask me...I'm retired" hat on.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
Back where? I've never heard of Billy Patin....got a story? Post it here if you do, please.

Sorry Dancer
Excerpt from the Daily Racing Form
Jockey Billy Patin suspended for 5 years by the Ark Racing people for caring a buzzer (A electrical device to make a horse run faster.aboard Valhol in the 1999 Arkansa Derby.To make a long story short,horse racing I love, Abusing animals I dont like,Just the story puts a bad taste in your mouth

[Bruddah]

I know Jim Jackson personally. I also know, with 100% certainty, he knew nothing of Billy Patin's actions. He was devestated and humiliated when this story came to light. Be a little more careful with your broad accusations. Jim Jackson is a horseman of the highest integrity and treats his horses humanely.

I was at Oaklawn the day he (Valhol) won the Arkansas Derby and Valhol would have won...buzzed or not buzzed. He simply was the best horse in the race that day. He went on to win several graded stakes and is now retired at Jim's farm.

Billy Patin repayed loyalty by Jim Jackson and Dallas Keen with his own insurance plan. It was his first shot at a big time win and he decided to use a 'helper' commonly employed at the La. tracks he rode. This is the same loyalty displayed by John Servis to Stuart Elliot, only with a much different outcome and story.

Good Luck with your Barn.

[cj]

teeitup will remember, Valhol gave me a $1700 P3 that day. I know I had Menifee in the BG, can't remember the Wood winner. It was a weak one, I know that.

Regardless, this is even worse than PVal. And to let him ride at CD, the home of the biggest race in the game, is even worse.

[Dancer's Image]

Well I found an article after all...

Posted: 7/2/2004 11:46:00 AM ET

Patin finishes third in comeback from suspension

Billy Patin, the central figure in one of the most controversial races in recent history, returned to race riding for the first time in five years on Friday with a third-place finish in a maiden special weight at Churchill Downs.
Patin received a five-year suspension in June 1999 from the Arkansas Racing Commission for carrying an electrical device aboard Valhol in the 1999 Arkansas Derby (G2), which the son of Diazo won by 4 1/2 lengths as a maiden. Patin and Valhol’s trainer, Dallas Keen, denied any wrongdoing during the ensuing investigation, but Valhol was stripped of the victory.
“The Arkansas Racing Commission saw fit to relicense him, and since he was judged in that jurisdiction to be fit to ride, we certainly took that into consideration,” said Mickey Sample, the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority’s state steward. “Churchill’s Director of Security Jim Kane interviewed him as well, did a complete background check, and he was clean. He served his time, and the stewards thought it would be improper to keep him away from competition.”
With his five-year suspension behind him, Patin applied for reinstatement in Arkansas and Kentucky. He had been working at High Point Training Center near Louisville where he met trainer Robert Hackworth, who named Patin on his first starter since the suspension.
“He’s a hard worker,” Hackworth said. “I’ve been watching him, and he’s a professional. I told him that if I had a live horse, then I’d put him on one, and things worked out that I had Freddy Time running. I’d like to see Billy win one.”
Hackworth said that Patin had been acting as his own agent in the days leading up to his return.
Patin began riding in 1979 and during his career won 1,276 races from 12,356 mounts, including 30 stakes events, who earned purses totaling $6,899,728. Valhol continued to race after the Arkansas Derby, winning six times in 21 career starts, including four stakes, and earning $444,850 lifetime for owner James Jackson.—Ed DeRosa

[Dancer's Image]

Now admittedly, all I know about this is what I read in the article, but worse than PVal, CJ? Patin serves a 5 year suspension, for what I have to assume is his first offense since the article doesn't say otherwise, and you don't want to give him a second chance? PVal only serves a month for his umpteenth infraction and somehow in your warped mind this is worse than PVal? You've been in Europe too long, CJ...but Happy 4th of July anyway.

[cj]

I doubt you will find many who have been against PVal much more vocally than I have. But, the one thing PVal has never been accused of is cheating. In my opinion, cheating is much more serious than drugs for this sport.

Many, many top jocks have had substance abuse problems. There is some tolerance, though the PVal situation is ridiculous. When it comes to jocks who cheat, there should be ZERO tolerance. That's all I'm saying...

[Dancer's Image]

Well let me be the first then to accuse PVal of cheating. PVal is cheating by taking illegal substances; these substances may give him an unfair advantage in making weight or other performance issues. Also I have seen PVal (as well as just about every other jockey at some time or another) purposely pull up a horse and/or not give his best effort to win a race. That is also cheating! Zero tolerance? There would be few if any jockeys left to ride. Surely 5 years for Patin is sufficient punishment.

[Tom]

Patin should be banned for life. He made a concious decsion to cheat. There can be no tolerance for cheaters in this game. IF he can't make a living any other way, too damn bad. Go bag groceries. Should have thought of that before.
:mad:

[Dancer's Image]

Banned for life? No tolerance for cheaters? So do we apply the same lifetime ban to all the other jockeys who cheat? Can anyone actually say that they have never watched a horse race and seen a jockey unequivocally pull up a horse and/or not try his/her hardest to win? If so, you haven't watched many races. Just in the past year, one of the Meche jockeys, (Lonnie, Donnie, or Vonnie? or were those the McDuck triplets?), was given a 6 month suspension for failing to persevere in the stretch. Should he be also given a lifetime ban?

It's a strange feeling for me to have someone make me seem like the bleeding heart liberal when it comes to punishment. Perhaps I'll have to go downtown tonight and kick over some of the derelicts' tin cups!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
Banned for life? No tolerance for cheaters? So do we apply the same lifetime ban to all the other jockeys who cheat? Can anyone actually say that they have never watched a horse race and seen a jockey unequivocally pull up a horse and/or not try his/her hardest to win? If so, you haven't watched many races. Just in the past year, one of the Meche jockeys, (Lonnie, Donnie, or Vonnie? or were those the McDuck triplets?), was given a 6 month suspension for failing to persevere in the stretch. Should he be also given a lifetime ban?

It's a strange feeling for me to have someone make me seem like the bleeding heart liberal when it comes to punishment. Perhaps I'll have to go downtown tonight and kick over some of the derelicts' tin cups!

Failing to persever is a subjective thing. A buzzer is objective. There is no other purpose for carrying a buzzer than to cheat. Yes, a lifetime ban, OR make the ride replace the money in the pools he cheated legitmate bettors out of.
There is no reason to tolerate anyone who cheats.

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by Tom
Failing to persever is a subjective thing. A buzzer is objective. There is no other purpose for carrying a buzzer than to cheat. Yes, a lifetime ban, OR make the ride replace the money in the pools he cheated legitmate bettors out of.
There is no reason to tolerate anyone who cheats.

Yes, a buzzer is objective and yes, it is illegal and yes, I certainly agree that some punishment should be administered for its usage. But I could argue quite convincingly that the buzzer doesn't even make any difference. Some horses will run faster with a buzzer, some horses slower, and some will not be affected. Whereas a rider who pulls up his horse or doesn't try his hardest to win the race, he always adversely affects his horse's chance of winning. So in your line of thinkinmg these jockeys should not be tolerated also.

Somewhere there should be a compromise between far too lenient treatment of jockeys like PVal and what you and CJ advocate, ie. lifetime ban for all jockeys who cheat...and I think this 5 year suspension for this Patin guy is pretty much it.

[PaceAdvantage]

DI, this is a dangerous outlook. If you don't come down hard, and I mean HARD on obvious cheats, there will be little deterrent effect. Cheating and race fixing are THE BIGGEST problems this sport could EVER face. Image is everything when you are fighting for gambling dollars.

Nobody really gives a crap if a jockey is getting high on his night off. But every bettor will care if they think racing is fixed, and jocks are carrying buzzers and other outlawed "tools"

[Dancer's Image]

PA,
Dangerous outlook? A 5-year suspension is not coming down hard? And I would assume that if Patin was caught using a buzzer again, that he would be suspended for life.

You give yourself away when you say, "Nobody really gives a crap if a jockey is getting high on his night off." Speak for yourself, I do and the racing authorities do. That's why it's a condition of PVal's kicense that he not use illegal drugs. By PVal using illegal drugs, he is cheating also and should receive similar punishment to what Patin is receiving. You won't try to argue that PVal has been punished in equal or similar measure as Patin? And why is that? Obviously because PVal is so talented, he receives preferential treatment. This is what bugs me (and the jockey colony) so much!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
You won't try to argue that PVal has been punished in equal or similar measure as Patin? And why is that? Obviously because PVal is so talented, he receives preferential treatment.


No. Not because he is more talented. Because the offenses committed were quite dissimilar. PVal's drug abuse, in my opinion, is a lesser offense. I assume most would agree. And that's why he is punished less severely.

[ranchwest]

Patin got five years. That's a stiff penalty. Yes, most would like to string him up for cheating.

Still, I wonder if it might just be that giving a person a second chance might have some positive aspects. Maybe Patin might be afraid of cheating now and maybe others might see that in him.

There's an old blues song that says, "You don't miss your water until your well runs dry." Maybe jockeys who have gone through this might come out with a new attitude. I think we need to follow some of these cases and see how the jock behaves after coming off of suspension.

Sylvester Carmouche, "the fog jockey", is one who comes to mind. Sylvester parked his horse in the fog and waited for the other horses to come around the track and then rejoined the race.

Sylvester took off early and ended up finishing better than the track record in a cheap claiming last race of the night.

The difficulty for the state in Sylvester's case was that the purse was so low that he had not committed a felony, only a misdemeanor. They couldn't give him a maximum penalty. If I recall correctly, they had to provide him with frequent hearings but could renew his suspension (I'm not certain on this point).

Finally, quite some time later, Sylvester confessed what he'd done, but it took a change of his story to do so -- perjury, felony, maximum penalty.

Sylvester was out for a long time. He's back riding now -- for a long time he was the regular rider for Hallowed Dreams. As far as I know, he hasn't gotten into any serious trouble (correct me if I'm wrong).

I say let's follow the cases of Patin and Carmouche and others in similar circumstances and see what becomes of them.

[CryingForTheHorses]

RANCHWEST
A SECOND chance!!!
Would YOU give him a second chance on your horse???..I WOULDNT...Just the fact that he ABUSED a horse for his own good...Listen a jockey doesnt carry a buzzer fir fun..He carries it to CHEAT..I myself have no time in my life for CHEATERS or ANIMAL ABUSERS.
This game is tough enough,The public needs honesty in this game.
He should have thought of that before he did the dirty deed.
These poor animals just do what they are asked, They have NO defense.
He has NO PLACE in the racing game

[Tom]

Let me put it this way: Fixing the outcome of a race is worse than robbing a bank. The money bet by trusting people was leterally stolen from them by a POS who has no business ever being allowed on the grounds of any raetrack ever again. No second chances for bottom feeders, and this guy is just not worth even caring about. Apparently, he was not bright enough to understand the idea of rules before, so for all those as studpid, crooked, and greedy as he was, let the warning be clear-you cheat you are out forever. Racing doesn't need theses marginal creeps who bring nothing to the game but suspicsion.
You have to realize, and no offense to you horsepeople out there, the game is not about you. It is about gambling and betting. Period. Trainers, owners, jockeys, even the horses are secondary players in this game. Without the betting public, you would be racing your horses for side bets and bragging rights.
This concept has been lost on the racing industry for as long as I can remeber.

[Dancer's Image]

PA,
Are you seriously going to try to argue that PVal hasn't been given preferential treatment because of his talent?

McSchell,
It all depends on how you define "abuse". If you think the minimal electric shock delivered by a hand held battery buzzer is abuse, then you are one step away from the PETA people who think that the use of a jockey whip is abuse, and that's perfectly legal in our sport. I don't see much difference between whipping a horse and delivering a very minimal shock from a hand held buzzer, except for the fact that the whip is legal and the buzzer is not, and therefore I don't condone the use of the buzzer. But it is a very small step in both directions, ie. the buzzer could just as easily be legalised and the whip could just as easily be disallowed. I can agree with you on the need to assess some penalty on this Patin guy, but for you to try to equate it with "abuse", just doesn't wash.

Tom,
You said..."Let me put it this way: Fixing the outcome of a race is worse than robbing a bank."...and I can agree with you as far as that statement goes. But this Patin case is not about fixing a race, it's about him using an illegal device. Fixing a race does happen, and I'm in favor of stiff penalties for this activity although probably not a lifetime ban for the first offense.

[Tom]

I give up. You just don't understand.
HAND

[CryingForTheHorses]

LMAO@ DANCERSIMAGE
Not laughing at you sir!!
Hell when I see my horse in front I want to see the jock whipping and slashing to win.
Im a long way from PETA.
In my time I have saw horses zapped!
Please remember this..You have a 4 wheel drive that can go any which way on the turn of a dime..These animals can go thu walls when frightened,Lots of people dont relieze the strenth they really have,A zapped horse can do several things that a whipped horse doesnt..for 1 drop to the ground immediately..2 bolt to the inside or outside.3 have a heart attack,4 stop,Over my years on the track I have seen many things, I saw a guy yearsss ago at some fair meet plug a wire in a socket and slap his horse with the cord...Horse broke thu the back of his stall. I have to disagree with thinking a small electric shot wouldnt hurt.I also think the whip is overrated,But I do like to see my jock trying to win.If the horse isnt going to get there, All the whipping and buzzing isnt going to help..

[Tom]

McShell....interesting post about the juice's effect on a horse.
Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
RANCHWEST
A SECOND chance!!!
Would YOU give him a second chance on your horse???..I WOULDNT...Just the fact that he ABUSED a horse for his own good...Listen a jockey doesnt carry a buzzer fir fun..He carries it to CHEAT..I myself have no time in my life for CHEATERS or ANIMAL ABUSERS.
This game is tough enough,The public needs honesty in this game.
He should have thought of that before he did the dirty deed.
These poor animals just do what they are asked, They have NO defense.
He has NO PLACE in the racing game

Whether anyone likes it or not, Patin is getting a second chance. We'll have the opportunity to see what he does with it.

[Dancer's Image]

McSchell,
You're not equating the electric shock delivered by an electric cord plugged into a wall socket with the shock delivered by the small, hand held, battery buzzers? You've probably seen the type/size of the buzzer used by Patin on Valhol? I haven't, but I've seen the ones used in dogs' collars to shock them to train them not to leave or enter a certain area. Those use a triple AAA battery and have been safely used on 10-20 pound dogs. Surely a 1200-1400 pound horse can be safely zapped with a similar buzzer. I'm not saying it's painless to the horse, but similar to the pain inflicted by the whip.

I realize that different horses respond differently to the shock (I posted the same thing yesterday in this thread at about 730 pm), that's why I believe either the trainer also was in on the buzzer or Patin must have tried the buzzer on Valhol in morning workouts. Maybe since Patin took the whole blame, the trainer interceded for him to get reinstated?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Hey Dancer!!
Man you are as tough as a hard boiled egg!
This little buzzer you are talking about DOESNT shock like you think..It BURNS.You can smell the hair burning.Have you ever had one used on you????...BIG difference then a dog collar..This little gadget will make you JUMP not wince..Dont forget if a horse is sweaty running a race..you zap him and he feels it worse then if he was dry..Beleive me Dancer..you are very wrong in thinking this doesnt do harm..Im not looking to argue this point but again I say you are looking on the wrong side of the fence.I used to pony horses at the old DRC racecourse and all you can hear as you warm up is the guys zapping the horses. This device will RUIN a horse. Will make them not want to run, Will make them eventually refuse to break!. This little buzzer has no place in a race, Also dont tell me the whip hurts them, The whip has a flat leatherpopper on the end..When you hit a horse with it , Makes a loud noise so it scares them, Im not saying that it doesnt leave welts, Sometimes it does. A good rider will know how to properly use a whip, A bad rider will hurt him..Please get this buzzer crap out of your system.The only guys that use these are the guys looking to cheat...

[Dancer's Image]

Hey Dancer!!
Man you are as tough as a hard boiled egg!
This little buzzer you are talking about DOESNT shock like you think..It BURNS.You can smell the hair burning.Have you ever had one used on you????...BIG difference then a dog collar..This little gadget will make you JUMP not wince..Dont forget if a horse is sweaty running a race..you zap him and he feels it worse then if he was dry..Beleive me Dancer..you are very wrong in thinking this doesnt do harm..Im not looking to argue this point but again I say you are looking on the wrong side of the fence.I used to pony horses at the old DRC racecourse and all you can hear as you warm up is the guys zapping the horses. This device will RUIN a horse. Will make them not want to run, Will make them eventually refuse to break!. This little buzzer has no place in a race, Also dont tell me the whip hurts them, The whip has a flat leatherpopper on the end..When you hit a horse with it , Makes a loud noise so it scares them, Im not saying that it doesnt leave welts, Sometimes it does. A good rider will know how to properly use a whip, A bad rider will hurt him..Please get this buzzer crap out of your system.The only guys that use these are the guys looking to cheat...

Hey McSchell,
Well duh...since these buzzers are illegal, of course the only guys using them are cheaters....have I ever said otherwise? NO!!!!

I am only responding to your posts. You said using these buzzers were a form of abuse...I think that is some serious horse hyperbole. You equated the use of one of these hand held buzzers to shocking a horse with an electric cord plugged into a wall socket....more exaggeration. And now you claim "This device will ruin a horse"....doesn't seem to have ruined Valhol!

I don't have any buzzer crap in my system, the buzzer is illegal, therefore it should not be used! But if racing had decided to make the buzzer legal, a small hand held battery buzzer could be developed and regulated to deliver a very minor electric shock, similar to the shock delivered in these dog collar buzzers in use today. (Your anecdotes about homemade buzzers at DRC (when were you there by the way? I spent many days at DRC) are irrelevant because those buzzers delivered a varying quantity of electric shock). Hand held battery buzzers will never be legalised for horseracing so it's a moot point; much more likely would be the elimination of the whip, in fact I seem to recall the Seabiscuit authoress, Laura Hillenbrand, leading just such a cause.

This Patin guy broke the law and served his time; in spite of all your protestations, he is NOT Adolph Hitler, and he deserves a second chance. Pretty easy to check for electric buzzers too, we don't even need a sample. LOL

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
PA,
Are you seriously going to try to argue that PVal hasn't been given preferential treatment because of his talent?


So, you will sit there with a straight face and tell me PatV is the ONLY jockey EVER to get multiple chances despite being a drug addict? There aren't any lower level jocks out there who received multiple chances despite trouble with drugs....

Or maybe, some lower level jocks ARE drug addicts, and ARE given second, third, fourth, etc. chances, but YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT, because their names aren't NEWSWORTHY. Maybe that's the ticket, eh?

Not for one minute am I going to believe that Pat Valenzuela is the only jockey ever to receive multiple chances at resuming his career despite his history with drugs.

Since you are the expert here, I will let you prove me wrong, and name the jockeys who were PERMANENTLY BANNED after only a couple of infractions involving drugs.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Dancer, I was at Hazel Park and DRC back in the middle 70's,They had Ed wingate,Joanne Jackson,James Jackson for whom I galloped horses,Also ponnied horses for him.Wayne Catalano was leading rider then.Maybe im off on the year but I was there

[freeneasy]

this is not about fixing a race its about using an electric device and that just couldnt be further from the truth. maybe he didnt fix the race as per say where a conspiracy or an agreement with others exsisted to throw a race but his whole intention in using the buzzer was to take away any legitimate chance that any other horse may have had in that race to win. iow his intention was to fix the race to win for himself leaving those bettors who put their money on other horses in that race holding an empty bag. he fixed that race and to think of it as anything else other than a fix is hardly worth the debate

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by freeneasy
this is not about fixing a race its about using an electric device and that just couldnt be further from the truth. maybe he didnt fix the race as per say where a conspiracy or an agreement with others exsisted to throw a race but his whole intention in using the buzzer was to take away any legitimate chance that any other horse may have had in that race to win. iow his intention was to fix the race to win for himself leaving those bettors who put their money on other horses in that race holding an empty bag. he fixed that race and to think of it as anything else other than a fix is hardly worth the debate

Well sir, you are certainly aptly named for you are very free and easy (as opposed to precise and certain) with your language. Words have meaning; why not utilize the correct terms? Fixing a race, and using an illegal device to win a race are two DIFFERENT forms of cheating. There's no maybe about it; he didn't fix the race per se; but he did cheat by using an illegal device; you're right, it's not worth debating! We could debate whether the illegal device actually helped the horse, Valhol, win the race or not because it is no sure thing that a buzzer always helps a horse....but it is always illegal.

[Dancer's Image]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
So, you will sit there with a straight face and tell me PatV is the ONLY jockey EVER to get multiple chances despite being a drug addict? There aren't any lower level jocks out there who received multiple chances despite trouble with drugs....

Or maybe, some lower level jocks ARE drug addicts, and ARE given second, third, fourth, etc. chances, but YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT, because their names aren't NEWSWORTHY. Maybe that's the ticket, eh?

Not for one minute am I going to believe that Pat Valenzuela is the only jockey ever to receive multiple chances at resuming his career despite his history with drugs.

Since you are the expert here, I will let you prove me wrong, and name the jockeys who were PERMANENTLY BANNED after only a couple of infractions involving drugs.

My dear PA,
I am so sorry I missed this post of yours....there is no one I'd rather argue with, errr, discuss horseracing with, than you.
Let's be precise here and speak in no uncertain terms(as opposed to freeneasy)....I said that PVal has received preferential treatment; I never said that he was the ONLY jockey EVER to get multiple chances. You are the one who is refusing to admit that PVal has received preferential treatment; which is really a pretty preposterous position (I love alliteration) to take on your part. So let's stop this foolish discussion, and just admit that PVal has received preferential treatment.
PVal has already been given 11 chances, and will most likely be given #12 on friday to resume riding. So if I can find one jockey, who has been banned from racing with < 11 chances for substance abuse, then by definition, PVal has been accorded preferential treatment. Do you really believe that no jockey has ever been banned from racing for substance abuse with < 11 chances?

[PaceAdvantage]

To be quite honest, off the top of my head, I am unaware of ANY flat jockey that has been banned permanently from racing because of substance abuse.

Care to refresh my memory?

[Dancer's Image]

PA,
A cursory search at Thoroughbred Times...

Jockeys Francisco Torres and Tracy Hebert, who have lengthy histories of substance abuse problems and have been out of action in the United States for nearly 15 months, appear to be no closer to a return to the saddle.

Both have taken steps to convince the same racing officials at Churchill Downs that banned them in November 2000 to reconsider the decisions. Churchill President Alex Waldrop said the jockeys remain barred, the Louisville Courier-Journal reports. He offered no further comment.
Torres has enrolled in a substance abuse treatment program and currently rides in Saudi Arabia. He had failed to submit to a urine test and was taken off his mounts at Churchill on November 18, 2000.
Hebert, who was slapped with a five-year ban from the Kentucky Racing Commission in January 2001, has filed a discrimination lawsuit against Churchill Downs. The lawsuit cites the Americans With Disabilities Act and Rehabilitation Act, and Hebert claims that weight restrictions caused him to suffer "the disability of alcohol/substance abuse."
Frank Jones, Kentucky Racing Commission vice chairman, indicated that some reevaluation should be considered for Torres, who has family in Kentucky and is involved in an Alcoholics Anonymous program.
"I’m not necessarily championing his cause," Jones said. "But I’m certainly in sympathy with anyone trying to correct a problem. I think people are entitled to a chance when they have made a good effort to correct the wrong."

This article was from 2002...does anyone know anything more about these 2?

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by Dancer's Image
Well sir, you are certainly aptly named for you are very free and easy (as opposed to precise and certain) with your language. Words have meaning; why not utilize the correct terms? Fixing a race, and using an illegal device to win a race are two DIFFERENT forms of cheating. There's no maybe about it; he didn't fix the race per se; but he did cheat by using an illegal device; you're right, it's not worth debating! We could debate whether the illegal device actually helped the horse, Valhol, win the race or not because it is no sure thing that a buzzer always helps a horse....but it is always illegal.

well i guess i shall try to quickly examine the evidence at hand, mmmm, ok, lets see,
jock uses buzzer to enhance chances of winning a race,
weather due to the effects of a buzzer or not,
horse wins race,
jocks intention to win race using illegal device is realized.
either the man achived the results he desired thru the means of cheating or he didnt. and since he did there just aint no per se, as you have stated, about it. i dont know di, sounds pretty fixie to me.

[Wiley]

Dancers Image

Tracy Heberts' suit was denied in March of this year. As far as I know he is still serving a 5 year suspension. Pretty good comparison to Valenzuela, similar situation without the high profile.
Patin and Hebert were top jocks at defunct Jefferson Downs which I used to frequent in the 80's - talent thrown away.

Anyone here know the effect of buzzers on horses while running? I have always guessed that unless a horse is trained with one prior to use in a race that using one could be more detrimental than good. I am in no way condoning buzzers but wonder what exactly is the difference to whipping which to me is a method of punishment to the horse to get them to run faster or at least not slow down. Patin must have thought or known there was a difference to carry one.
Dancers Image
Wasn't he DQ'd in the 68 Derby for having Bute in his system? Looks pretty silly in todays overdrugged training world.

[PaceAdvantage]

So, no jockey has yet to be banned permanently for abusing drugs. Is this what I am to understand?

[cj]

Tracy Hebert was caught at least as many times as PVal, and I'm pretty sure he was caught riding while drinking. No way, ever, should this guy ride again.

[Bruddah]

while all of this makes for good reading, it's obvious the subjects (Patin and PVAL) are not worthy of either of your attentions. You both make good points, to support your contentions, because you both are intelligent and knowledgable. Each of you has been drawn into the ugliness created by two losers, who do not posess your intelligence. Nor, could you ever count on them coming to your aid, in time of need. This is what losers usually do. Draw support of others to defend their own stupid irrational behaviour.

On another day, possibly at the track, you two would be talking horses and how to beat this game. Today, you are allowing Patin and PVAL (LOSERS) to remake you into their image.

Please kill this thread. It does neither of you the justice you deserve or seek for either of those LOSERS.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Originally posted by McSchell_Racing
Hey Dancer!!
Man you are as tough as a hard boiled egg!
This little buzzer you are talking about DOESNT shock like you think..It BURNS.You can smell the hair burning.Have you ever had one used on you????...BIG difference then a dog collar..This little gadget will make you JUMP not wince..Dont forget if a horse is sweaty running a race..you zap him and he feels it worse then if he was dry..Beleive me Dancer..you are very wrong in thinking this doesnt do harm..Im not looking to argue this point but again I say you are looking on the wrong side of the fence.I used to pony horses at the old DRC racecourse and all you can hear as you warm up is the guys zapping the horses. This device will RUIN a horse. Will make them not want to run, Will make them eventually refuse to break!. This little buzzer has no place in a race, Also dont tell me the whip hurts them, The whip has a flat leatherpopper on the end..When you hit a horse with it , Makes a loud noise so it scares them, Im not saying that it doesnt leave welts, Sometimes it does. A good rider will know how to properly use a whip, A bad rider will hurt him..Please get this buzzer crap out of your system.The only guys that use these are the guys looking to cheat...

This is a earlier post Wiley

[Stillriledup]

Patin should be banned for life. He made a concious decsion to cheat. There can be no tolerance for cheaters in this game. IF he can't make a living any other way, too damn bad. Go bag groceries. Should have thought of that before.
:mad:

You banned him for life over a decade ago, the 'industry' let him ride up until recently. I don't want to say you told them so but.


You told them so.

[EMD4ME]

You banned him for life over a decade ago, the 'industry' let him ride up until recently. I don't want to say you told them so but.


You told them so.

And I will take this as an opportunity to formally state that certain riders who give Coupon worth rides, will be added to this list one day.

[EMD4ME]

No bet, just happened to be watching. No idea who the jockey is, or horse. Arlington race 5 today. Jock on 4 was not riding at all from the 1/4 to the wire as his horse was gaining with every stride on his own, to lose by a nose.

What is going on in this world? Is he related to Patin???? :lol:

[Donttellmeshowme]

Tracy Hebert was caught at least as many times as PVal, and I'm pretty sure he was caught riding while drinking. No way, ever, should this guy ride again.



Hes riding at C'town

[BIG49010]

No bet, just happened to be watching. No idea who the jockey is, or horse. Arlington race 5 today. Jock on 4 was not riding at all from the 1/4 to the wire as his horse was gaining with every stride on his own, to lose by a nose.

What is going on in this world? Is he related to Patin???? :lol:

Michael L. Wright, III apprentice at AP that has one win at meet on this horse! Not exactly a strong finisher, I watched the race also.

[EMD4ME]

Michael L. Wright, III apprentice at AP that has one win at meet on this horse! Not exactly a strong finisher, I watched the race also.

Oh...so he's Taylor Rice esque. Ok, that actually does explain it. Thanks.

Thank god I don't play that circuit. I'd blow a circuit !!!!