How do jockeys time their rides?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Some jockeys have an uncanny ability to judge when to start their closing moves and finish just a nose or a head at the finish line...I've always wondered how jockeys time their rides? How do they know how fast they are going? They must use the poles as a guide....but I'm wondering if they count something else during the running of the race...anybody have any ideas here?

[whodoyoulike]

I really don't know. Some jockeys used to say they had clock in their heads.

But, I wonder if they are allowed to wear a stopwatch or a regular watch.

[EMD4ME]

In all seriousness, I wouldn't be surprised if some jocks had an ear piece in their ear with someone telling them the pace looks slow/look out for middle mover/close the rail/speed it up.


In jest, at NYRA I think most jock's internal clocks are broken as they choke like there is a 21 44 in front of them. Meanwhile the leader is running a 24 2/5 Q1 in a 6F sprint.

[VigorsTheGrey]

In all seriousness, I wouldn't be surprised if some jocks had an ear piece in their ear with someone telling them the pace looks slow/look out for middle mover/close the rail/speed it up.


In jest, at NYRA I think most jock's internal clocks are broken as they choke like there is a 21 44 in front of them. Meanwhile the leader is running a 24 2/5 Q1 in a 6F sprint.

There must be some sort of rule against anything electronic, wireless, etc...anything that would give an advantage...but if I was a jock and there were no rules like that..I'd definitely wear something...so there must be some rules somewhere to that effect that we are unaware of.

[whodoyoulike]

If you think about it, if you do something frequently and you're good at it, you should know how long something takes e.g., handicapping races, driving home from work or wherever or when you tell someone you'll meet them at a certain time. All of these examples involves estimating time.

I don't see why wearing a watch or stopwatch would be against any rules.

[arw629]

Looking for cover is key for riders and drivers...then they can see holes better and let the horse run without strangling it...watch the winner on race 2 at Keeneland sunday ...the rider positioned the horse behind a wall of horses rather than wrangle the horse back and go around the field...all the jock had to do was wait for a hole turning for home....most horses aren't push button horses and the best riders know where to put them...so to answer the question...not so much when but where just as much

[Stillriledup]

There must be some sort of rule against anything electronic, wireless, etc...anything that would give an advantage...but if I was a jock and there were no rules like that..I'd definitely wear something...so there must be some rules somewhere to that effect that we are unaware of.

Top jocks shouldn't need to know the exact time as long as they have a feeling of how fast they're going for that specific horse I have to imagine most good jocks know. Of course when good jocks make inexplicable errors 3 times a day it makes you (and me of course ;) ) 'wonder' what's going on.

[AndyC]

Some jockeys have an uncanny ability to judge when to start their closing moves and finish just a nose or a head at the finish line...I've always wondered how jockeys time their rides? How do they know how fast they are going? They must use the poles as a guide....but I'm wondering if they count something else during the running of the race...anybody have any ideas here?

In a dirt race where horses are generally decelerating are they really timing their closing moves?

[PhantomOnTour]

Don't most jocks launch their move at a certain pole?
1/2m pole is a popular spot

[VigorsTheGrey]

Don't most jocks launch their move at a certain pole?
1/2m pole is a popular spot

I've been keeping a look out for when the launch begins...and I guess it depends on the inside wait for the hole to open approach versus the rally wide. If you are going to rally wide and grind it out then yes, start at the half pole..Jockey Lanerie seems to pick the point where the final turn curve meets the top of the stretch.

He and others look for sent horses to swing wide at his point due to centrifugal force, which sometimes creates the opening along the rail for those in the 2nd flight to fill and rally through.

I think a lot of jockeys see the merits of this move but it isn't always successful and can be dangerous and at times self-defeating if the hole does not materialize.

So their timing is actually connected to a physical point along the rail where they want to unleash their mounts remaining energy toward the finish line.

[fiznow]

It makes the difference between good jockeys and bad jockeys imo. I think it's easier to ride a frontrunner but being on a closer you must have the perfect timing plus the ability to avoid traffic and to find a hole in time.

[v j stauffer]

Some jockeys have an uncanny ability to judge when to start their closing moves and finish just a nose or a head at the finish line...I've always wondered how jockeys time their rides? How do they know how fast they are going? They must use the poles as a guide....but I'm wondering if they count something else during the running of the race...anybody have any ideas here?

Each race and perhaps more importantly horse is different. The great jockeys know how to maximize each horse's performance.

As for timing it just right to win by a head or a nose. Believe me that's not by design. No rider would cut it that close. When horse's rally to win by a short margin it's an all out, hells bells, balls to the wall competition.

If they had their druthers the jocks would prefer to cruise by and win by open lengths with the least stress required.

[Augenj]

It might upset the traditionalists and it might upset the usual outcomes of races but I'd like to see fractions posted around the track where jockeys could see them during the race. OK. Let the flaming begin. :lol:

[v j stauffer]

It might upset the traditionalists and it might upset the usual outcomes of races but I'd like to see fractions posted around the track where jockeys could see them during the race. OK. Let the flaming begin. :lol:

Why?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Why?

Vic, I was wondering what you thought of Donworths performance in Sat Charles Town Classic....Mario still seems to want hold back this horse which he did this time at the beginning of the race....Castellano on Stanford was able to rail skim on easy pace to wire the field. The tight turns didn't help Donworth at all as he went wide throughout...They should just let this horse run up closer to the lead where he wants to be...

[Augenj]

Why?
Only a few jockeys have "clocks in their heads". Ramon Dominguez and Jerry Bailey come to mind. These split numbers would give all jockeys the ability to see what the leader is doing... going too fast... going too slow. They could adjust their position within the pack accordingly. Going too fast? Drop back a little and save something for the end. Going too slow? Move forward because the leader may not be coming back. Just throwing out something to see if it'll stick on the wall. :D

[VigorsTheGrey]

Only a few jockeys have "clocks in their heads". Ramon Dominguez and Jerry Bailey come to mind. These split numbers would give all jockeys the ability to see what the leader is doing... going too fast... going too slow. They could adjust their position within the pack accordingly. Going too fast? Drop back a little and save something for the end. Going too slow? Move forward because the leader may not be coming back. Just throwing out something to see if it'll stick on the wall. :D

Just a green or red light on each pole to indicate above par or below par to the previous pole.

[WoxFan]

I would think having a watch would be dangerous. They have enough to worry about keeping themselves safe during a race, why the heck would you want to risk it to look at a watch?

Horse racing has survived all these years and some jockeys won many many races without any timing tools, why add them now?

[Augenj]

I would think having a watch would be dangerous. They have enough to worry about keeping themselves safe during a race, why the heck would you want to risk it to look at a watch?

Horse racing has survived all these years and some jockeys won many many races without any timing tools, why add them now?
Well, first of all, it's not a watch. It's on a post in their line of vision. Why add them now? I'm tired of jockeys mistiming rides on good horses. ;)

[whodoyoulike]

I would think having a watch would be dangerous. They have enough to worry about keeping themselves safe during a race, why the heck would you want to risk it to look at a watch?

Horse racing has survived all these years and some jockeys won many many races without any timing tools, why add them now?

Just wear them on the inside of their wrists and they would only need to glance at them at certain points on the track. If they would use a stopwatch they wouldn't have to do any mental calculations. And, if they use a watch hopefully it will have a second hand.

[Tape Reader]

It might upset the traditionalists and it might upset the usual outcomes of races but I'd like to see fractions posted around the track where jockeys could see them during the race. OK. Let the flaming begin. :lol:

A jockey timing a ride off the tote board means to me, that he is clueless. That’s why “I” bet off the tote board.

[Augenj]

A jockey timing a ride off the tote board means to me, that he is clueless. That’s why “I” bet off the tote board.
The fractions would be displayed around the track, maybe even on some of the current poles, not on the tote board. I just want to see good horses get good rides by inferior jockeys. :D

[Tape Reader]

The fractions would be displayed around the track, maybe even on some of the current poles, not on the tote board. I just want to see good horses get good rides by inferior jockeys. :D

What I said was in jest. IMO, a talented jockey would have zillions of variables to compute before looking at the “tote board” for assistance.

[Hard2Like]

These are the same guys that some folks say have a hard time puttin their shoes on the right feet most days.
Not to mention what is said about timing methods and the bumbleclods working the actual timers.
My belief is that some of the better jockey's DO have an exceptional ability to judge the pace of a race, or race speed and flow- a 'clock' in their head.
And my guess is that this gift is far removed from high speed math skills.

[v j stauffer]

Vic, I was wondering what you thought of Donworths performance in Sat Charles Town Classic....Mario still seems to want hold back this horse which he did this time at the beginning of the race....Castellano on Stanford was able to rail skim on easy pace to wire the field. The tight turns didn't help Donworth at all as he went wide throughout...They should just let this horse run up closer to the lead where he wants to be...

Sorry Vigors. Your post was first time I thought about the race. Had one baseball and 9 basketball games this weekend.

I'll check out the replay when I get a chance.

[v j stauffer]

Well, first of all, it's not a watch. It's on a post in their line of vision. Why add them now? I'm tired of jockeys mistiming rides on good horses. ;)

C'mon you're joking right?

[Augenj]

C'mon you're joking right?
Well, first of all, it's not a watch. It's on a post in their line of vision.
It's just an idea and could be considered a joke by traditionalists who I mentioned earlier. Here's another idea outside the box. Put radio receivers in jockey's helmets to hear the fractions from a radio source at the track. Now, THAT would really be considered a joke by most. :eek:

Why add them now? I'm tired of jockeys mistiming rides on good horses.
".. in a well-timed ride" is a pretty common expression by TV pundits and perhaps yourself over the years? By the way, it was always a pleasure listening to your calls. Not only were they informational but you've got "great pipes". You could easily be a TV announcer as a second career. ;)

[VigorsTheGrey]

Augenj,

I like using your ratings that you provide for us here at Pace. After the lists are developed, how do you personally use all the info in them to develop your wagering?

[Augenj]

Augenj,

I like using your ratings that you provide for us here at Pace. After the lists are developed, how do you personally use all the info in them to develop your wagering?
I'm afraid we're hijacking the thread but the short answer is that I have two systems, one private and one public that you see here and on my board. The private system has stats for conditions that the top horse finds himself in. If it's profitable over 2 years, it's bettable to me. I'll be betting this summer after years of development wind down.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I'm afraid we're hijacking the thread but the short answer is that I have two systems, one private and one public that you see here and on my board. The private system has stats for conditions that the top horse finds himself in. If it's profitable over 2 years, it's bettable to me. I'll be betting this summer after years of development wind down.

Great. Thanks for responding. I'll bring it up on your thread. Thanks again.

[Robert Fischer]

Some believe that jockeys can hear bettors yelling instructions through the TV's at OTBs...

[VigorsTheGrey]

Some believe that jockeys can hear bettors yelling instructions through the TV's at OTBs...

Maybe that explains the constant behavior of some of the regulars...they don't root for horses, they root for jockeys! Amazing but true.

[Robert Fischer]

Maybe that explains the constant behavior of some of the regulars...they don't root for horses, they root for jockeys! Amazing but true.

You have to root for the jockeys, but you have to cover all the bases...

Have to give your jock instructions, call out to your horse's number, root against rivals, etc.

One thing I never do is whip my leg with the form. - That's just silly. I don't think the whip makes them run any faster after they've given their all.

[VigorsTheGrey]

You have to root for the jockeys, but you have to cover all the bases...

Have to give your jock instructions, call out to your horse's number, root against rivals, etc.

One thing I never do is whip my leg with the form. - That's just silly. I don't think the whip makes them run any faster after they've given their all.

Never whip your leg with the form? Gads, you have lost the edge!

[Stillriledup]

You have to root for the jockeys, but you have to cover all the bases...

Have to give your jock instructions, call out to your horse's number, root against rivals, etc.

One thing I never do is whip my leg with the form. - That's just silly. I don't think the whip makes them run any faster after they've given their all.
Disagree, whipping the leg makes them run like hell! :D

[VigorsTheGrey]

You have to root for the jockeys, but you have to cover all the bases...

Have to give your jock instructions, call out to your horse's number, root against rivals, etc.

One thing I never do is whip my leg with the form. - That's just silly. I don't think the whip makes them run any faster after they've given their all.

Jockeys whip horses cause they are not going fast enough!

[VigorsTheGrey]

The reason I'm interested in how jockeys time their rides is because I think there is a connection between what we do as handicappers and what they do as riders. Why would you suppose a rider would read the racing form? But I know that they do, or at least I have heard some of them say they do to improve themselves. In order for them to win, they must do on the track what we do in our heads, figure out a way to win with their horse. I guess that's why I am paying more attention to how and when rider consciously make their moves. Certain riders tend to repeat their ride patterns that they feel comfortable with. I see Lanerie making similar rides, others won't rally along the rail only wide, etc. I've seen r.base make the same middle move, grind the outside narrow margin win a countless times...he's got the timing down!

[whodoyoulike]

The reason I'm interested in how jockeys time their rides is because I think there is a connection between what we do as handicappers and what they do as riders. ... he's got the timing down!

I think I understand what you're getting at in your post but re-read Vic's response in post #12, because I think he's more correct since no one can time it as you suggest.

I would have said he is correct but, I didn't want to appear a kiss .....

And, btw I also prefer my selections win by open lengths.


Each race and perhaps more importantly horse is different. The great jockeys know how to maximize each horse's performance.

As for timing it just right to win by a head or a nose. Believe me that's not by design. No rider would cut it that close. When horse's rally to win by a short margin it's an all out, hells bells, balls to the wall competition.

If they had their druthers the jocks would prefer to cruise by and win by open lengths with the least stress required.

[Tall One]

You have to root for the jockeys, but you have to cover all the bases...

Have to give your jock instructions, call out to your horse's number, root against rivals, etc.

One thing I never do is whip my leg with the form. - That's just silly. I don't think the whip makes them run any faster after they've given their all.


Get that big hoss outside, or get'em on the rail to my jock...I never call a horse by name..always the program number.

This one cant be used often, or it wont work, but you see your horse is making that move on the turn, jock is right in stride, and i'll start snapping my fingers.. :)

On topic--Baffert mentioned once why he uses Garcia on his horses in the mornings. Said his clock in his head, is better than the one in his (Baffert's)hand.

[Stillriledup]

Interesting race today at GG in the 2nd. The 5 is normally a strong pace setter who rolls along on the lead, but today he didn't break so hot, multiple jocks had opportunity to change strategy midstream but nobody did, the 5 worked his way to front with a bunch of guys wrangling to yield to him. It was as if their prerace strategy was to have the 5 rolling on the lead, but when that didn't happen, nobody changed plans.

[whodoyoulike]

Interesting race today at GG in the 2nd. The 5 is normally a strong pace setter who rolls along on the lead, but today he didn't break so hot, multiple jocks had opportunity to change strategy midstream but nobody did, the 5 worked his way to front with a bunch of guys wrangling to yield to him. It was as if their prerace strategy was to have the 5 rolling on the lead, but when that didn't happen, nobody changed plans.

He did break slow similar to his 1/2/16 race but he quickly moved to the front and led at each of the first four calls. It's true in his races from 5/2 - 11/21 which were also route races (D/T) he broke well and led right away but maybe something has changed since it's two in a row. Regarding "nobody changed plans" maybe no one noticed his poor break after all he was in the 5th pp and that move to the front may have used up a lot of energy. Noticed, the one who passed him in the stretch was the BPP #1 and 2nd betting favorite at $3.20 to him being the favorite at $2.70 despite being BPP #5.