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HIGH ROLLER
06-30-2004, 10:16 PM
if i understand correctly HTR gives your their program free while the other guy charges $700.

but you still have to pay for the HDW data.

if the programs are roughly equal sounds like there is no choice but to go with HTR.

kitts
06-30-2004, 10:24 PM
You go with the one that works and helps you make good betting decisiions. There are plenty of software choices under $700 like All-In-One which is what I use. But, as I have preached before, use the one that "fits" you best. There is an investment involved here and a learning curve as many posters on this board will tell you.

Dave Schwartz
06-30-2004, 10:29 PM
High Roller,

Actually, it is only $600. <G>

And who said they were "roughly equal?" <VBG>

Or, you can look here and try for a deal:

Current eBay Auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=429&item=5105980202&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

TonyK@HSH
06-30-2004, 10:32 PM
Highroller,

While both programs have staunch supporters I would propose that the programs are not alike. I personnaly use HSH and have for years. I'm very satisfied with the results. I don't use HTR but have a close friend and handicapper that is a customer of Ken's. He swears by Ken..he is a stand up developer who does introduce some ingenious ideas.
From my perspective, HTR is focused on pace handicapping and is very adept at it.
HSH on the other hand offers multiple handicapping methods. There are several built in (one button) systems, pace options, neural networks, database queries and more.
I'd suggest that you speak to each developer and get a look into their software..then consider your handicapping comfort zone. After that the choice will be obvious to you.

Good luck

TonyK

sq764
06-30-2004, 10:36 PM
If you pay $600, do you get a '@HSH' email address too??

HIGH ROLLER
06-30-2004, 10:41 PM
looks like dave schwartz has pressed his wife into action to hawk HSH on ebay.

what next a local carnival? lol

Dave Schwartz
07-01-2004, 12:16 AM
High Roller,

A Carnival! I never thought of that. How does one organize something like that?

And, just for the record, she approached me. After all, she IS the eBay Queen! Just look at those feedbacks!


Just out of curiosity, what was your purpose in starting this thread?


Dave Schwartz

HIGH ROLLER
07-01-2004, 09:37 AM
the reason? maybe to expose the hypocrisy on these forums, but don't worry you will have your band of merry minions to provide their knee-jerk reactions.

sq764
07-01-2004, 09:43 AM
Well damn, when I thought we were bashing Dave, I was all in.. But now that you say you are bashing the forum in general, I have to object..

HIGH ROLLER
07-01-2004, 09:49 AM
you are correct, the forum is great, its the BS that is absurd. last week a newcomer asks about the best software. almost immediately the HSH crowd is out in force with telephone numbers to dave.

i mean what fool would suggest to a newcomer to start with a $600 program plus the locked in data.

HIGH ROLLER
07-01-2004, 10:07 AM
i myself would buy a program if any of these uri geller types could prove it works.

but then again after 300 people using them there goes your edge.

sq764
07-01-2004, 10:10 AM
Well, personally I wouldn't pay $600 for a program, but I can't fault the HSH people for trying to gain another customer.

I don't think you can fault someone for trying to promote their product and trying to secure another customer. It's just business.

GameTheory
07-01-2004, 11:08 AM
When will people understand that handicapping software doesn't make the money for you? If you are a graphic artist and buy Adobe Photoshop ($650), does it MAKE the pictures for you? If you are a stock trader and get a stock program (many thousands $$$ likely), will it decide what trades to make? If you are an a engineer, does your CAD program ($200 - $1000) design things for you?

No, no, and no -- they're tools that help in the process. Notice I also put in the price you can expect to pay for these professional level tools. Considering HSH (which I do not use, and I've never given or received a penny to/from Dave, so I don't think I'm a "minion") has tons of features and is certainly a "professional-level" tool (is there a more full-featured handicapping program even out there?), I don't think the price is out of line. Some people seem downright offended at the price tag. And the data, although it is true you are "locked in" (a month at a time) is downright cheap for what you get.

levinmpa
07-01-2004, 11:14 AM
I've never used HSH so I can't give an opinion on it. However, I rate HTR very highly for a number of reasons.

Unlimited data download for one monthy fee, including results and charts.

The software is free and upgrades are posted regularly on the website.

Outstanding customer service.

Monthly newsletters discussing different handicapping factors.

Their own forum to post questions or comments to other users.

Ratings that I haven't seen in any other software. I'm not talking about speed or pace ratings. I believe this is very advantagious.

The ability to export data into a customized database and query different angles or theorys instantly. (an enormous timesaver)

All in all, an outstanding value for what this software is capable of.

sq764
07-01-2004, 11:16 AM
On the flip side, a high priced piece of software certainly does not guarantee that it's worth the price. I have seen several $500+ software versions that were total pieces of crap.

GameTheory
07-01-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by sq764
On the flip side, a high priced piece of software certainly does not guarantee that it's worth the price. I have seen several $500+ software versions that were total pieces of crap. True enough, but to accuse (not you) the HSH users of being shills for recommending it when there is no reason to think they are anything but happy customers is a bit much....

Dave Schwartz
07-01-2004, 02:21 PM
High Roller,

Oh, I get it now. You created this thread with the intention of saving everyone from the evil software vendors.

Nice to know that you have an altruistic agenda.

I am sure you won't mind if I try to resist playing this game.


Dave Schwartz

PaceAdvantage
07-01-2004, 02:37 PM
I've used both programs (HTR and HSH) and I can safely say that they are NOT similar programs.

I've used HTR now for a while. It's a fine program, and you can do a lot with it. It gives you a bunch of screens, and a bunch of buttons. Lots of pace ratings, speed ratings, trainer stats, etc.

It's all about data presentation with HTR. Plus, you can export everything into Access and do with the data what you will.

HSH, I haven't used in a few years. I know it's expanded greatly since it first appeared, and I'm starting to get the HSH itch again, and see what Dave has come up with lately. Maybe I'll put a bid on that e-bay copy. It seems like quite a bargain.

PaceAdvantage
07-01-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by HIGH ROLLER
if the programs are roughly equal sounds like there is no choice but to go with HTR.

They're not equal. Why would you say that? Have you used both? I have.

Dick Schmidt
07-01-2004, 06:06 PM
I do love people who equate value with cost. It warms my heart to know that when I decide to go back full time, there will always be lots of dumb money laying around at the track.

Why buy an expensive program of any kind when there are always cheaper alternatives? Why pay for HSH? Because it's a better program and wins more money. Maybe not in your hands, but it does in mine.

Funny thing about tools. Professionals in every walk of life always seem to be willing to pay "too much" for the tools they use to make a living. We just had an extension put on the back of our house. Came out really nice. The pros who put it up used a "hammer" that costs about $1,100. I have a hammer that cost $2.99. So, I got a much better deal, right? My hammer will drive any nail their's will, so why spend so much? Because I use my hammer to hang the occasional picture around the house and they use their's to build houses. It looks so expensive, buying a compressor, 100 foot air lines and 3 or 4 different nail guns that only use special nails, just to drive a nail. Maybe, but they can drive 500 nails a day and do a better job on each one of them. As Game Theory pointed out, pros use better tools.

I've always told people to use programs that "fit" their personalities and style at the track. What works for me might not work for you. I recommend a free program (Synergism) to lots of people who ask what is the best program for TPR numbers. I also tell some people who are serious to get HSH, as it is more than worth the investment. Frankly I'm always glad when I hear people whining about the cost of buying and using HSH. Just more for the rest of us to scoop up.


Dick


Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

sq764
07-01-2004, 07:06 PM
Dick, very true..

But what you fail to mention is that there are programs out there that are much cheaper that are more effective than HSH.

Your point is that putting out $500 for a good program is not too much to spend.

My point is that an expensive program does not automatically mean it is better than a less expensive one.

JoeG
07-01-2004, 07:07 PM
Dick hit it perfectly on the head. There are a number of tools that I use in my everyday life that are more "expensive" then others, but I use them over "cheaper" versions because they work for me. Just looking at my computer I see I have MS Office including excel, word and Access. I could use some cheaper software like the free Word Pad or Word Perfect, and a database like Fox Pro, etc. but to me these programs are better for what I do and I gladly pay more for them over others. Also I could use the good old PrintScreen button for image and file captures but instead rely on the "expensive" SnagIt software because it is better for me. There are countless other examples of software like this.

In handicapping t-breds I use both HSH and POL together to profit from the races. I paid $500 for HSH and $450 for POL. Data costs for HSH are $129/month and POL $59/month. Do I regret these costs. No. I gladly pay them because they work for me. I know each of these do not work for everyone, but they are wise business expenses for me.

I know someone who used HSH and it did not work for him. He's switched to another software and found it to be a great fit for him. Am I a "blind minion" who can't accept this fact? No, I'm happy he's found success now.

There are some people who always popup to bash a software vendor. If that's so important in your life...go ahead, keep doing what makes you happy. I know the hard work that goes into developing software as I've spent nearly 3 years fine-tuning my homegrown harness software to where I can comfortably make a profit. If someone offered my finished product to me for $1000 or more I'd pay it after seeing and living the 1000's of hours of work I've put in.

So again, if it makes you happy to bash a software vendor, go ahead. I know I can't stop you. If carefully worded question posts meant to incite stike your fancy, by all means continue. One basher here has this profile: Sells selections through two sites; gets free data for all tracks from one of the sites; regularly ridicules software vendors but not people who sell picks. I wonder why he ridicules software sellers and cost of data, but not pick sellers.....I wonder.......

sq764
07-01-2004, 07:36 PM
JoeG, I really haven't seen any threads on people that sell picks. I was curious where you noticed that, per your comments.

JoeG
07-01-2004, 07:59 PM
sq764:

My point exactly. There is selective bashing of software developers by people who neglect to bash another large segment of the handicapping community that they are intimately a part of.

I'm not a saint here as I've panned most of the harness software out there. But I don't take every sliver of opportunity to ridicule when a specific topic comes up.

sq764
07-01-2004, 08:09 PM
Well, maybe if PA changed the 'Handicapping Software' section of the site to 'Selection Sellers', there would be more discussion about that.. Until then...

And if you noticed, I started out defending HSH people for offering their product to a newbie.. I mentioned that you could not fault them for promoting their product.

If that is ridiculing their software, then guilty as charged!

JoeG
07-01-2004, 08:29 PM
sq764:

I didn't start writing this to defend HSH or go after any one person. I mearly wanted to point out a few things about software and the bashers. In fact I haven't said much about buying HSH so I'm probably not on any "known fan list"

Also I'm not impying that people should talk about pickers in the software forum. Just pointing out pickers who have not to my knowledge ever said a bad word about pickers.

BTW, one thing: you say you started this thread defending HSH. Your first quote was about paying $600 for @HSH and second post about "bashing Dave." I'm still trying to find your defense of HSH in the first two posts here.....

BTW the sarcasm of statements like "And if you noticed" are so becoming........

sq764
07-01-2004, 08:42 PM
"Just pointing out pickers who have not to my knowledge ever said a bad word about pickers."

JoeG, to your knowledge, have any software authors said a bad word about other software authors on this forum?

I believe the answer is no, so I don't really get your point there, if there was one.

JoeG
07-01-2004, 09:17 PM
1) I am a software author/seller in the past though I never made horse racing software to sell

2) I criticized harness software

1+2 = a software author that criticized another.

sq764
07-01-2004, 09:23 PM
Well, let me start to ask every person who criticized selection sellers on this site to make sure they have never sold selections themself. After that arduous task, if everyone says no, then you have some kind of point there..

Is the 'my dad can beat your dad up' line coming next?

wolsons
07-01-2004, 09:37 PM
I know I'm jumping over from the other thread, but you wanted to know why I asked you if your homepage on your profile was your own site.

In reference to the discussion you started regarding 'restocking charges' and how unfair they are, why not offer full refunds less shipping expenses, etc, ...I simply wanted to ask what guarantees or refunds of any kind you offer your customers on your site. The logical extension of your argument is that someone using your service for $10/day for a month should be able to get a full refund of $300 at the end of a month if they're not satisfied with your service or if they didn't profit from your selections.

Agreed?

Steve

sq764
07-01-2004, 09:51 PM
Well, wolsons, if we actually had a charge for our selections you may have a point. Nice try though.

JoeG
07-01-2004, 09:53 PM
If you want my point here it is. I started my first post trying not to be too specific and point out a few things about a few habitual negative posters in the software thread. You then started to take apart my post. You were obviouly offended.

So I'll be specific and just aim my next comments at you. You have a habit of attacking software, not because you used it and didn't like it but because of things such as cost of the program, cost of data, or even restocking fee as in the Poweronline post. Why you do this is beyond me but obviously you enjoying goading with subtle comments and questions.

For example look at you first post in the Poweronline thread: First post you make a sarcastic comment about the restocking fee costing $100 with "I don't recall bubblewrap and envelopes costing in the $45 range." Then you were surprised Wolson got defensive after this question/comment.

Now if you'd really like I can make an evaluation of you web site based NOT on the fact that I've ever bought any picks but simply on what I read there. $10 Custom Cards. No mention of any money back guarentee or 30 day unlimited trial use of these picks.

Like you I suggest a liberal 30 day free trial of all you picks for all t-bred and harness tracks. Just like Propace. It'll expire in 30 days.

JoeG
07-01-2004, 09:58 PM
Have you ever read your web site sq764? Custom card analysis is what I read and Wolson obviously...Nice try though.....

wolsons
07-01-2004, 10:10 PM
how do i sign up for your FREE $10 custom cards?

sq764
07-01-2004, 10:10 PM
JoeG, there is a 'liberal 365 day' free trial on the picks on our site, all the selections are free.

A few points in relation to your posts tonight:

1) I kinda caught onto your post that I sell picks for 2 sites and get free data from one of them. Half of your statement is totally false... I do selections for Trackmaster, not for Equineinvestor (as per my agreement with Trackmaster). My partner and I do run the site, but I have nothing to do with the selections.

2) No, I have not ridiculed pay selections of other's, mainly because I have not ever seen discussion on the subject here. The only people that I am aware of that sell selections that post here even semi-regularly are Nunamaker and Winawin (sp?). I think as far as computerized selections go, Nunamaker's figures are excellent and there is no hiding his results either. You can also go back the next day and see how his selections did, so you know exactly what you are getting.

3) The only 2 pieces of software I have commented on were HSH and POL. Honestly, I took shots at the data costs for HSH pretty much just busting balls. I really don't know about HSH, as I have never used it before, nor have I used the data.

From the few people I know that use HSH, they think it's an excellent product and quite frankly, their only concern is the costs involved with the data and software are high. Whether the costs are covered by profit, I have no idea, not would begin to guess.

And as far as POL, I simply asked about the $100 restocking charge, which was a simple and innocent question. But somehow it got blown into a bigger issue because wolsons seemed to take offense to it. In my opinion, if you sell a product, you should not be offended by any questions asked of you or your product.

4) I use Validator 2 and love it. I have toyed with 20-30 pieces of software and was hooked when I started using Val2. With that being said, when people ask me what I use, I get varying reactions from "Oh, that's cool" to "The Sartin Methodology is so outdated" to "How can you use a stupid DOS program"... Would my ROI jump and improve my current profits if I switched to HSH? Who knows, possibly... But I guess I don't have the desire to find out. Does that mean HSH is too expensive? NO.. Does it mean Val2 is the holy grail? NO. Does it mean I turn a consistent profit with an inexpensive piece of software that uses inexpensive data? YES..

I am not a bad guy, just opinionated at times :-)

wolsons
07-01-2004, 10:14 PM
"Honestly, I took shots at the data costs for HSH pretty much just busting balls. "

Why? Are you generally a ballbuster in life? If so, that's sad (I know, I know, I'm too sensitive...)

You should get out more, and enjoy life a little, stop busting balls so much!

:p

sq764
07-01-2004, 10:16 PM
I am not going to get into a pissing match with both of you about the custom cards. They are custom wagering selections that people on our site do and they are specific to the person's wagering level (if they play $100 per card, suggested wagers = $100). If they do not turn a profit, the $$ is refunded or you get another free card.

Sorry it is not specifically noted on the page, but that is why this is stated: "After you contact us and ask for a specific track on a specific date, you will be contacted as soon as a handicapper is selected to honor your request. The handicapper may then contact you to ask you some questions regarding how they can customize their work to meet your individual needs."


And I am sure you both won't believe my explanation, which frankly doesn't bother or surprise me.. but, if you are that interested, contact 'dav4463' who posts here often, he used to handicap Sam Houston for our site.

I am sure he can validate all the sneaky, imaginative things you guys want to try to twist around about what I do.. Good luck..

sq764
07-01-2004, 10:24 PM
"Why? Are you generally a ballbuster in life? If so, that's sad (I know, I know, I'm too sensitive...)
You should get out more, and enjoy life a little, stop busting balls so much!"

Why? Because most ADULTS do not become so offended and generally are not as sensitive as you and JoeG. Dick Schmidt, who I thought was an egotistical jerk at first, took my ribbing quite well and gave it right back to me. I kinda actually like the guy now.. That was an adult reaction, not like the childish one you and JoeG are giving..

My God, lighten up.. I have my first child on the way (due December 12th), so I am freaking out right now, nervous as hell, worrisome, happy, excited, unprepared... My wife has been psycho the past 4 months as well.. So in the big scheme of things, this is an enjoyable exchange of ideas for me.. No stress, nothing taken personal, just a release of sorts..

And I should enjoy life a little? I have a great wife (I am letting her psychotic bahvior slide for this 9 months), a house, 2 nice cars, a good job, money to play the horses and poker, an occasionally obedient dog and a wonderful child on the way. This is the happiest I have ever been in my life. I couldn't possibly be enjoying it more than I am now...

wolsons
07-01-2004, 10:35 PM
Yeah, SQ or whatever your name is, but we all have stress in our lives, most of us don't release it by turning around and busting other people's balls, and then getting all huffy about it when our targets turn around and bust ours in return.

If you're going to start fights with people you don't know, you have to learn that they are under no obligation to take it from you in good cheer. You've wasted a lot of our time today with your ball busting...I haven't been on this board all that long, but I gather from other comments made here that you have a history of doing this.

Why not stop it? Then we can enjoy our lives as much as you say you are enjoying yours!

Sensitive Steve

(I'm sure you'll respond to this very quickly, but I've gotta go to bed - I've had a LONG day, moving my company's computer network to our new location - I'll read your response(s) tomorrow - I promise)

JoeG
07-01-2004, 10:37 PM
sq764:

The whole point of this is the busting balls and sarcasm in these software posts.

A few quick points. You keep forgeting that you did NOT just ask about the restocking fee but had to make a sarcastic comment about the bubblewrap and envelopes. Just asking the question is not a problem. But you had to include a comment.

2nd: You say I'm totally false in part of my statement about selection. I stated that you sell picks, not make selections. That a distinct difference. You do SELL picks at EQI last I saw.

3rd: I have no problem believing that you refund the money for picks that don't profit. My point was that its easy to pick on things you see at a web site.

4th: I don't have a problem with you as I really don't know you. Also there's nothing wrong with a little sarcasm, but in every post.

5th: Honestly, I had fun posting all this because my wife had a girls night out and I had nothing to do. Hope you have a great night.

sq764
07-01-2004, 10:37 PM
"If you're going to start fights with people you don't know"

Sensitive Steve, I didn't start a fight with you, I simply asked what the $100 restocking fee entailed. Get a grip man..

JoeG
07-01-2004, 10:39 PM
sq764:

Congrats on the new kid coming! As you can see I was just having a little fun with you tonight. Have a great night!

PaceAdvantage
07-02-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by sq764
Dick, very true..

But what you fail to mention is that there are programs out there that are much cheaper that are more effective than HSH.


WOW. You go from that quote above....to this quote below, all in the span of one day:

I really don't know about HSH, as I have never used it before, nor have I used the data.

From the few people I know that use HSH, they think it's an excellent product and quite frankly, their only concern is the costs involved with the data and software are high. Whether the costs are covered by profit, I have no idea, not would begin to guess.

GameTheory
07-02-2004, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by sq764
"If you're going to start fights with people you don't know"

Sensitive Steve, I didn't start a fight with you, I simply asked what the $100 restocking fee entailed. Get a grip man..

Can't you two see that you're in love with each other?

wolsons
07-02-2004, 06:38 AM
"Can't you two see that you're in love with each other? "

I guess I was trying to deny that possibility to myself...LOL



:D

Zimal1
07-02-2004, 07:39 AM
Back to the original question. HSH has a greater learning curve than HTR. But for queries, and a database approach HSH has a query mechanism built in-- a huge project and incredible timesaver. HTR requires knowledge of MS Access, but a Tester in the program is gradually growing and allowing more and more sophisticated queries which can lead to spot plays. The support for both programs is excellent, and both Dave and Ken are top notch people.
Both programs have features that allow one to look at other than the more usual pace/speed ratings--for example, HTR has its own proprietary workout rating,
HSH allows quick breakdown of performance by odds, etc. Both use data from HDW and build on that.
Cost is a matter of bankroll, how often you play, and taste. When I can afford it, I like a good restaurant.

Zim

sq764
07-02-2004, 09:38 AM
PA, I really don't see your point..

It's not possible for BOTH of the following to be true:

A) People that use HSH think it's an excellent program

B) There are cheaper and more effective software programs out there

And if they both cannot be true, please tell me which one CANNOT be..

PaceAdvantage
07-02-2004, 10:25 AM
Whether they are true or not, really isn't the point. The point is, are you qualified to make these statements. By your own admission, you are not.

sq764
07-02-2004, 11:03 AM
Ok, we are into semantics now..

I should have more accurately said "There very well may be cheaper more effective programs out there other than HSH"..

I thought the above was pretty much implied, but I will spell it out for you more clearly each time.

MtKen@HTR
07-04-2004, 02:16 PM
I've used HTR for 3 yrs+ now with only a short break of 3 or 4 months over 2 yrs ago to try HSH.

I don't know what the present version of HSH contains but it would have a hard time improving what I can now do with HTR & Excel.

For $119/month HTR provides software & data (including pp's) for all US & Canadien tracks. When I had HSH I believe it was $1/track/day for the download & the $600 up front. I'll certainly never go back.

Previosly I had tried several Bris programs, including Allways, & in my experience HTR delivers way more bang for the $ than anything else.

Excel is pretty easy to deal with as an advanced 'tester' but if you do not have db or spreadsheet skills HTR has a limited tester. Other programs have more advanced testing (espcially Allways) but the cost is much higher. Learn Excel or Access is my advice & save tons in the long run.

Is there anyone who has switched from HTR to HSH & stayed?

GameTheory
07-04-2004, 04:46 PM
HTR & HSH currently both use data from the same source at the same price...

Hosshead
07-04-2004, 05:50 PM
Almost the same price. HTR=$119/mo, HSH=$129/mo

InsideThePylons-MW
07-04-2004, 05:56 PM
Scary thread!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:confused: :confused: :confused:
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Suff
07-04-2004, 06:16 PM
I met a handful of HSH users at Saratoga last year.

Pound for pound,,,, great people, serious horse players.

I've never used it.


However...600 is mominal fee for the program...all considered...and if you use it to either play for profits or limit your loss's then the monthly data costs pays for itself...

The price is as much a "commitment tp success" as are the actual costs.... If people poid 200 for it ...they'd be less inclined to commit to the learning curve...and you'd end up with more ex-users who really never gave it a fair run....

If "giving away" the program worked...then that would be the business model. But experience has proven that the users MUST have some skin in the game....


who gets rich selling 600 dollar programs to the limited "serious" horseplayer market? I mean how many can you sell in a year? I'd think selling 5 a month is top end. The whole key to the success is putting together a decent sized successful group of players that but the monthly

therefore...it must produce the desired results or it goes away.

DRF gouges more than the lil ole software propriater.


And this thread is just a replay. Same ole same ole.

If you don't like software.... don't buy it.

charleslanger
07-06-2004, 08:41 AM
MtKen@HTR I've used HTR for 3 yrs+ now with only a short break of 3 or 4 months over 2 yrs ago to try HSH.

I don't know what the present version of HSH contains but it would have a hard time improving what I can now do with HTR & Excel.

For $119/month HTR provides software & data (including pp's) for all US & Canadien tracks. When I had HSH I believe it was $1/track/day for the download & the $600 up front. I'll certainly never go back.

Previosly I had tried several Bris programs, including Allways, & in my experience HTR delivers way more bang for the $ than anything else.

Excel is pretty easy to deal with as an advanced 'tester' but if you do not have db or spreadsheet skills HTR has a limited tester. Other programs have more advanced testing (espcially Allways) but the cost is much higher. Learn Excel or Access is my advice & save tons in the long run.

Is there anyone who has switched from HTR to HSH & stayed?
Hhhmmm, i don't remember HSH costing that much way back then-- in any case, it's a much different program today: more like several programs combined. And it's way beyond the capabilities of Excel & Access to attempt to do what HSH does today. Too bad you won't go back-- you'd be blown out of the water: anything involving database one can do with any other program, HSH does that-- not to mention other different capabilities.

I'm not being combative, just sticking to the facts, like Joe Friday :) If you wish, you could paste a sample of something you're currently doing-- to compare notes with an HSH'er...

And i second Suff--
There's not just McDonald's and no gourmet restaurants, not just Kia's and no Mercedez... we're not even talking Rolls Royce-- like with investing software: where you can pay five figures and up for the platform interfaces to trade commodities, currencies, securities, etc. What a double standard for sports investing, ehh? :rolleyes:
Big deal: we're not a third-world country-- we're the richest country in the world; even in a worst-case scenario where one was flat broke: if one gave up cigarettes, alcohol, and ballgames for thirty days-- there'd be the program cost; or if one went to a nearby cab company, restaurant, etc. & obtained a waiting, bartending, or driving part-time / weekend gig-- in one week or couple of weekends one'd have the software money.
At the end of the day, $600, or even $1000 is peanuts because: if say, you're shopping for cars-- you likely won't stop buying the one you want the most just because another one costs $600 less-- two or three extra monthly payments would not likely matter; well, the same should apply if one's serious about earning a steady income with the horses, $600 would be the winnings of less than a day, two or three at most.

Another serious professional reality is that not one single program has it all--especially for high-volume handicapping 10-20 tracks daily. On one hand, i'd love to see one program combine HSH, Formulator 4, Synergism / HTR-- on the other hand-- mutuels are better off this way. Probably the major reason why one pays extra for a program: to be able to analyze & bet a high volume daily-- otherwise:

If all one wants is to bet 1 or 2 tracks one or two times a week, & maybe enter an occasional contest-- then just about any program on the planet will do(as long as a strong handicapping foundation / education is in place): i've won contests / made a living using only TSN / Bris custom pp's / any number of programs-- at different times in the days before today's extensive simulcasting.

Peace.
.

socantra
07-06-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by sq764

4) I use Validator 2 and love it. I have toyed with 20-30 pieces of software and was hooked when I started using Val2. With that being said, when people ask me what I use, I get varying reactions from "Oh, that's cool" to "The Sartin Methodology is so outdated" to "How can you use a stupid DOS program"... Would my ROI jump and improve my current profits if I switched to HSH? Who knows, possibly... But I guess I don't have the desire to find out. Does that mean HSH is too expensive? NO.. Does it mean Val2 is the holy grail? NO. Does it mean I turn a consistent profit with an inexpensive piece of software that uses inexpensive data? YES..


I'm not getting into the value of the programs. I've been very impressed with Dave from things he's done here. I love the HTR newsletter. and both HTR and HSH sound like excellent programs. I'm not familiar with POL.

I use Validator myself, and am very happy with it. It is old fashioned programming and will not do many things the newer programs will do, I find that it embodies ideas I can't find anywhere else, and they work for me. While learning it, I did appreciate being able to buy my data by the piece, rather than by subscription.

That being said, SQ, I don't think you're aware of the cost of Validator. By the time of the last Followup, Listed retail price was $650.00 for new users, plus the $110.00 a year membership in PIRCO. Unlimited Trackmaster past performances are only $80.00 a month, but that doesn't include the charts that come with the HDW service. That's another $150.00, for a grand total of $230.00 a month, hardly a bargain.

Validator doesn't utilize the charts, and I get mine from Equibase courtesy of Game Theory's chartget , which is the only real bargain I've found in this business. A tip of the hat and big thank you, Game Theory.

socantra....

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 11:53 AM
SoCantra,

Well said.


There is an old saying that goes something like: "It is cheap at twice the price if it works."

So, if a software product does not get you to the window in the manner in which you'd like to become accustomed, does that mean it was a bad investment? Well, some people might say so, but I think that is a bit harsh.

In a horse race, one may buy a ticket on a high-priced horse that they feel has a reasonable chance of winning. If the horse does not win, does that make the wager a "poor investment?" Was the horse over-valued?

To say that only the winning horse was a good bet is a very arguable conclusion.

I think that a value assessment in the software arena (much like a horse race) should be based upon the potential value before one knows the outcome.

With horse racing software it is the matchup of the right software, the right person and the right approach. The software is not the end all to beating the races. It never has been and probably never will be.

In my hands a Stradivarius would just be so much lacquered wood and strings because I don't know how to play. The value would be wasted on me. (Alas, it would seem that golf clubs also fall into that category.)


As a software vendor, I certainly know who my competition is... who else has the best programs out there. And yet, occasionally I run across a handicapper that swears by a product that everyone else says is well below par. It is all about the match.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

sq764
07-06-2004, 12:39 PM
Soca, you say:

"I use Validator myself, and am very happy with it. It is old fashioned programming and will not do many things the newer programs will do,"


Why does it need to do many of the things newer programs do? More graphs, charts, databases, blah blah blah..

I want a program to narrow the field down to 2-3 contenders for me and that is what Validator does so well. There are no databases to maintane, no pricey subscriptions, no space-age graphs to decipher...

My point is that if I can handicap a race on Validator in 2 minutes and come up with my 2 horse win play and know I have an edge, do I really need to pay for a $650 program to run 10 million algorithms and 5000 graphs and come up with the same 2 horses?

Technology, ability to massage data and extensive data is great. But sometimes simple is best.. Or at least best for me.

MtKen@HTR
07-06-2004, 01:05 PM
I really have no axe to grind with Dave S or the HSHers. I agree with Dave that different people fit better with different types of software. I found that after trying both a couple of yrs. ago that I fit better with HTR.

Now after having run (& slightly modified) about 3 yrs worth of data through Excel through countless queries I have my own spot plays, methods, and/or handicapping style that I'm content with. Besides the spreadsheet I use different HTR screens in my final decision process, e.g. there is a 'sheets' type fig screen that is helpful for form analysis.

Finally HTR handicapping does not require one to be a database or spreadsheet handicapper. It is a great stand alone handicapping program & for the price of a month's subscription you can kick the heck out of the tires.

I'm sure there better horseplayers than myself out there using different software, whether its HSH or whatever. BOL to all, hope we all have fat ROIs.

Glad HSHers are getting a good deal on racefiles:D

andicap
07-06-2004, 02:42 PM
I'll second Mtken on HTR. (I've never used HSH, but I'm sure it's a great program too.)

I don't do Access or Excel but after several months I've found enough effective weapons on HTR to push my game ahead considerably largely through custom programs Ken Massa developed for me at very reasonable rates.
He'll let you try out the program over a weekend at which time you can download 45 days worth of files to play around with and answers all your questions.
It's no black box -- you have to know something about handicapping to use HTR, but for me it has really worked.

socantra
07-06-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by sq764

I want a program to narrow the field down to 2-3 contenders for me and that is what Validator does so well. There are no databases to maintane, no pricey subscriptions, no space-age graphs to decipher...

My point is that if I can handicap a race on Validator in 2 minutes and come up with my 2 horse win play and know I have an edge, do I really need to pay for a $650 program to run 10 million algorithms and 5000 graphs and come up with the same 2 horses?

Technology, ability to massage data and extensive data is great. But sometimes simple is best.. Or at least best for me.

I would generally tend to agree, although I would like to be able to do some modeling from my handicapped races (not from just results charts). Some programs have this feature. Sartin's Synthesis had the beginnings of such a feature through its computerized wagering decision form, but that direction was abandoned with the Validator series.

I will continue to use Validator for the forseeable future because I am able to 'see' more of the race with that particular implimentation of energy distribution and deceleration, and I've found nothing else that gives me a equally profitable vision.

My point to you is that we are also using a $650.00 program.

socantra...

Tatetytiffany
07-06-2004, 03:50 PM
I can understand Dave standing up for his program. What I can't understand is the HSH users suggesting you try the program. The more people who use it the more that come up with the same horse and down goes the odds. Remember the line by Trotter in let it ride. This is a horse race why are you talking to people.

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 03:59 PM
Tafety,

(Interesting name. I bet there is a story there.)

I would say that no two people use HSH the same way. While there will be certain commonalities, even people getting exactly the same readouts are subject to wager differently.

For example, on the next set of videos (to be released this week) I use a rigid contender process that will hit right at 88% in the top half+1 of the field (or 5 horses, whichever is less). I will make an odds line using three factors.

If someone else uses the same exact process, they will likely bet differently than I do. Even though they are getting the same exact percentages, some will only play the top horse or two, while others will look farther down for value. Me? I'm likely to bet ALL the value horses.

So, there is so much individuality in HSH that we typically wind up on different horses just like people all reading the DRF bet different horses.

As they say, all the winners are in the Form. <G> Just as Marc.


Dave

sq764
07-06-2004, 04:02 PM
I laugh when I hear this theory (of the more people using the program, the odds go down)..

Let's say the Del Mar win pool is $400,000... Let's say there are 100 people using HSH (not sure how many actually are, just an arbitrary number)..

If every single person who owned HSH bet $100 to win on the same horse, it would still only be 2.5% of the entire pool.. Of course not all 100 people would be playing the same horse in the same race at the same track, so even this theory is not reasonable..

sjk
07-06-2004, 04:17 PM
There are plenty of tracks where the win pools are in the $20,000 to $40,000 range. It wouldn't take a huge amount of company to turn a 20-1 play into a 12-1 pass.

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 04:36 PM
Ooops. That should have been "Just ask Marc."

sq764
07-06-2004, 04:45 PM
So there are probably 50 software programs out there with thousdands of different users, spitting out many different horses to wager on..

I really do not think there is one single software program that could affect odds like you say. It's just not conceivable..

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 04:58 PM
SQ,

You're correct. Programs do not move the odds... bettors do.


Dave

sq764
07-06-2004, 09:29 PM
Well, not exactly true.. If you have software that ties into the tote and wagers for you, then the software does move the odds...

I understand you were trying to be cute, but poor attempt.

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 10:13 PM
SQ,

Actually I was not trying to be cute I was serious.

Frankly, I find you attempt to be attagonistic at every turn tiresome and childish.


Dave Schwartz

sq764
07-06-2004, 10:37 PM
Well that really hurts.. And what is ironic is you try the same bullshit Dave..

You have to be twice my age, act it once.

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 10:38 PM
SQ,

Please post an example.

sq764
07-06-2004, 10:43 PM
Just get over yourself..

I know you're eccentric

I know you are arrogant

I know you wouldn't shut up during the whole toga trip last year about the one exacta you hit..

I reiterate.. Get over yourself.

Dave Schwartz
07-06-2004, 10:47 PM
SQ,

I challenge you to put up or shut up.

sq764
07-06-2004, 10:49 PM
Put up what? I put up what I know about you..

If you don't like it, that's not my problem..

If you drive everyone up an f-ing tree during the toga trip, my advise would be to not go...

charleslanger
07-07-2004, 02:28 AM
Holy Critters, i'm away for so long, and less than 24 hours after returning...

Scott: The discussion between you and Dave is not my business & he's a big boy--

but to stay silent-- both on my part and others'-- could be taken for implied agreement with your trash talk--

I'm 3 decades in this business-- and have never met a more upstanding and honorable person than Dave Schwartz.

However, your problems with drugs and alchohol are well-documented--

What you have just done is disrupt my handicapping for tomorrow-- chances are you just cost a bunch of us money-- what is the point?

You need do two things: offer an immediate apology not only to Dave, but to the whole forum that you just offended--- and enroll yourself in a substance abuse program-- before it's too late.
.

The Skeptic
07-07-2004, 03:15 AM
Here is my take on HDW's programs:

Ease of Use - Information - Pro Level - Support
HSH 5 10 10 7
HTR 7 8 8 10
Synergism 8 8 7 8
All in One 9 7 6 6
Netcapper 8 7 7 8
RSPOS 10 10 not software just great PP's

Summary: For the true professional HSH is the way to go. User may get frustrated with the learning curve but incredible program. Misc long term expenses will be videos, pars and seminars....the only one necessary is the videos. If you can commit yourself to the time...your done. HSH.

HTR is great if you learn Access. Great out of the box program requiring no database but database necessary to get ultimate benefit. Support is perfect. If this is your first handicapping program or you're relatively new still could get flustered but manageable. Ken's support and commitment incredible. Tester feature very good and being updated for those who don't want to learn Access. HTR will test your Hard Drive's endurance.

Synergism is a great out of the box program. Will help one learn about handicapping. Excellent if playing just several circuts (can play and handicap all though) as Paceline selection required to get ultimate benefit - but can be accomplished using automated selection as well. Synergism is essentially a Modeling/Regression program. Handicapper could grow into something else in time as they demand more and have exhausted all it's benefits. This puts every former Sartin Program ever spoken about unnecessarily on this board to shame as he has several hundred thousand invested in it's development. If you can't decide between All in One or Syn - go Syn. If you can't decide between Net and Syn --- try them both for 2 months then decide.

Netcapper grew out of All in One. Both similar as the commentary to Synergism. Netcapper has a nice "angle feature" available for a fee.


Handicapper Experience

1-3 yrs All in One, Netcapper and Synergism
2-5 yrs Same as above add HTR
3-6 yrs Netcapper, Synergism, HTR
4-7 yrs Synergism, HTR
5-8 yrs HTR and HSH
6-10 yrs HTR, HSH with a strong emphasis on HSH however that assumes you are doing this full time. There is a huge time requirement in HSH.

Speed Figure
07-07-2004, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by The Skeptic
Here is my take on HDW's programs:

Ease of Use - Information - Pro Level - Support
HSH 5 10 10 7
HTR 7 8 8 10
Synergism 8 8 7 8
All in One 9 7 6 6
Netcapper 8 7 7 8
RSPOS 10 10 not software just great PP's

Summary: For the true professional HSH is the way to go. User may get frustrated with the learning curve but incredible program. Misc long term expenses will be videos, pars and seminars....the only one necessary is the videos. If you can commit yourself to the time...your done. HSH.

HTR is great if you learn Access. Great out of the box program requiring no database but database necessary to get ultimate benefit. Support is perfect. If this is your first handicapping program or you're relatively new still could get flustered but manageable. Ken's support and commitment incredible. Tester feature very good and being updated for those who don't want to learn Access. HTR will test your Hard Drive's endurance.

Synergism is a great out of the box program. Will help one learn about handicapping. Excellent if playing just several circuts (can play and handicap all though) as Paceline selection required to get ultimate benefit - but can be accomplished using automated selection as well. Synergism is essentially a Modeling/Regression program. Handicapper could grow into something else in time as they demand more and have exhausted all it's benefits. This puts every former Sartin Program ever spoken about unnecessarily on this board to shame as he has several hundred thousand invested in it's development. If you can't decide between All in One or Syn - go Syn. If you can't decide between Net and Syn --- try them both for 2 months then decide.

Netcapper grew out of All in One. Both similar as the commentary to Synergism. Netcapper has a nice "angle feature" available for a fee.


Handicapper Experience

1-3 yrs All in One, Netcapper and Synergism
2-5 yrs Same as above add HTR
3-6 yrs Netcapper, Synergism, HTR
4-7 yrs Synergism, HTR
5-8 yrs HTR and HSH
6-10 yrs HTR, HSH with a strong emphasis on HSH however that assumes you are doing this full time. There is a huge time requirement in HSH.

PaceAdvantage
07-07-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by sq764
Put up what? I put up what I know about you..

If you don't like it, that's not my problem..

If you drive everyone up an f-ing tree during the toga trip, my advise would be to not go...

Were you even there? I don't remember you being there. I was only there for 2 days...maybe you showed up later....

I don't get people sometimes. There were a LOT of people at the Saratoga trip last year, if you count everyone who stopped by and hung out. There were a LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, different ages, male, female.....

I think for the mix of STRANGERS that it REALLY WAS, it went very, VERY well. Are you going to like EVERYONE 100%??? Of course not.

Is someone going to do something that doesn't sit right with you? Of course they will.

Did I like everyone I met at Saratoga 100%??? Of course I DID NOT. But I have enough class not to point it out publicly on the board.

And now we have people (Dave S) being told they aren't invited on one thread, and in another, Suff is telling everyone that anyone who is a member of PaceAdvantage.Com is invited.

I don't like ANYONE being told they can't come. It's not in the spirit of the thing. But then again, this is Suff's trip, and I guess he can tell anyone he wants not to show up. Doesn't seem in the spirit of the thing, but I guess that's his right.

But the way I see it, if you're going to say in another note that ANYONE from PaceAdvantage.Com is welcome....well then, everyone should be welcome.

Just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean everyone else agrees.

sq764
07-07-2004, 08:53 AM
charleslanger, drug an alcohol problems? I wish I had the spare cash to afford a drug problem. You must have me confused with someone..

sq764
07-07-2004, 09:44 AM
PA, you attack and degrade people on a weekly basis on the forum, in public. Does this mean you have no class?

cj
07-07-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by sq764
PA, you attack and degrade people on a weekly basis on the forum, in public. Does this mean you have no class?

I be curious to see a few of these attacks and degredations. Please post a few, I'm curious.

sq764
07-07-2004, 09:56 AM
Sorry, I am still waiting to hear about my alcohol and drug problems :-)

I did smoke pot twice in college, maybe that counts..

cj
07-07-2004, 10:00 AM
PA had nothing to do with that post. Some guy with like 40 posts did. Maybe its someone else with an alias, I don't know, but what's that got to do with PA?

sq764
07-07-2004, 10:03 AM
Nothing.. Sorry, I don't have time to go through PA's thousands of posts to find the ones where he attacks people..

If you don't want to agree with my statement, who cares?

Dave Schwartz
07-07-2004, 10:05 AM
Well, the tough part is that SQ is right about me at Saratoga last year. (And I hate THAT part.)

I was more than a bit obnoxious.

I could try to justify it by telling everyone that I was having the handicapping week of a lifetime... with like four or five exactas that paid in the $200+ range and one that topped $600... and that would "explain" why I was so exuberant.

But it would not excuse my behavior.

Frankly, I was having such a good time with all the people and everyone was so pleasant to each other... I got a bit carried away. (Okay, maybe more than a bit.)

I think the best way to describe my behavior at Saratoga would be "not a very good winner."

Although it is a bit late in coming, I'd ask that everyone who suffered through it please accept this apology for my bad behavior.


Kind Regards,
Dave Schwartz

sq764
07-07-2004, 10:15 AM
Dave, that is quite big of you, seriously..

Shows a lot of character. I won’t speak ill of you again..

PaceAdvantage
07-07-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by cjmilkowski
I be curious to see a few of these attacks and degredations. Please post a few, I'm curious.

I'd be curious as well.

Some people tend to confuse the word attack with debate. Again, if anyone wishes not to debate anything with me in the future, please let me know, and I won't participate.

I doubt I went out of my way to attack or degrade anyone who didn't deserve it. If I did, please, PLEASE point it out. Since you are bringing this up SQ764, you MUST have a particular post or person in mind. Use the search function of the board. It makes things much easier.

sq764
07-07-2004, 10:27 AM
PA, no I don't have a particular post in mind at all.

I just get annoyed with the self-righteousness of some people on this board..

I mean I admit that I have blasted certain people, at times unprovoked. No doubt. I also know I have had the same happen to me. But I understand that when it happens to me, I had it coming.

It's just funny to see some people blast others, then get upset when the same happens to them.. (And I also notice that most of the PA 'originals' are pretty supportive of each other at all times, which I guess is to be expected)

socantra
07-07-2004, 10:51 AM
I'd just like to congratulate everyone for coming together to produce a very entertaining thread.

It's been a roller coaster ride of high drama, low comedy, insults, attacks, and even quite a bit of information thrown in.

Evrybody sit back, take a deep breath, and give ourselves a round of applause for a great piece of improvisational theatre.

socantra

DonnieN
07-07-2004, 10:53 AM
Not to get tangled in the fray.....

But if any of you folks are in the Vegas area Wed July 14th, Ken is holding his annual seminar at the Gold Coast Casino. The public is invited. Kicking off around noon to 12:30, there will be topics of interest for even non-HTR users. That evening we are covering how to use Access to get the most out of HTR. We have an annual meeting that focuses on nothing but horse selection. There is no hype, no sales blast/pressure, or anything else.

Note: there is no cost but donations are always acceptted to help defray the cost. Input of any kind is always welcome!

Want to see the timeline? http://www.homebased2.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3549

Hope to see some of you there.

Back to Lurker mode.

Best regards!
Donnie

delayjf
07-08-2004, 05:19 PM
Dave,
Speaking of Saratoga, I'm still waiting for the story behind the 100.00 winner. If I ever pick a 100.00 horse, I'd go nuts too.

Tom
07-08-2004, 09:11 PM
Dave,
I liked you.
But I was only there a few hours! :D


BTW, I will have a bowl of chowder for you again this year. Extra hot sauce.

Suff
07-08-2004, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
everyone who stopped by and hung out. There were a LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, different ages, male, female.....

I think for the mix of STRANGERS that it REALLY WAS, it went very, VERY well. Are.
It did and it will. The complaints I got.... have been non-invitated

Tom
07-08-2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by delayjf
Dave,
Speaking of Saratoga, I'm still waiting for the story behind the 100.00 winner. If I ever pick a 100.00 horse, I'd go nuts too.

I saw him with a deck of Tarot cards! :D

MV McKee
07-10-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by sq764
Sorry, I am still waiting to hear about my alcohol and drug problems :-)

I did smoke pot twice in college, maybe that counts..

So did I ....for 1982 and 1983

sq764
07-10-2004, 04:04 PM
Um, cogratulations.. I guess..

sam i am
07-10-2004, 07:32 PM
You will be missed this year,who will the wife talk to? I had a great time last year the 4 or 5 days I was there. The one day I show up a little late is the day you have the $100.00 winner in the 1st race, still had a good meet. Hope to see you next year.

David

ldiatone
07-12-2004, 04:17 PM
what is the htr program? i have talked to dave about hsh.
thanks

GameTheory
07-12-2004, 04:36 PM
http://www.homebased2.com/km/

GR1@HTR
07-14-2004, 11:40 PM
No need to learn Access...KM has developed a new "robot" tester...

Now you can get the Win% and ROI on say for example a horse that is rank 1 in AP, running a dirt sprint, layoff of less than 30 days,who switched to a top ranked trainer, with an excellent pedigree rating, w/ an MLO greater than 5.0....bla bla bla...

The Skeptic
07-14-2004, 11:46 PM
HSH-Horsestreet to be fair has always had something similar. Far ahead of HTR & more.

GR1@HTR
07-15-2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by The Skeptic
[BFar ahead of HTR & more. [/B]


For example?