Mohaymen Works 46.80 Bullet After Poor Race

[Stoleitbreezing]

My stable mail has Mohaymen 46.80 for the half mile. It was the best drill of 27 at Churchill Downs. Being one of his early supporters in futures and watching the poor FL Derby run I told myself I'd wait to see how he works over the track and comes out of his last race before I support him again at the windows. This first drill is a good step in that direction in what should be a nice price. I'll have to look for derby clocker reports or articles on Bloodhorse to see how easily he went, but a cursory look at the time is positive in my opinion. I'm sure other works will be a bit more relaxed going forward, but the sharp drill negates the feeling he may have been hurt in the FL Derby. Anyone still left on the Mohaymen bandwagon? Amazing how one poor race and he's basically an also ran in the minds of others.

[señorclipclop]

My stable mail has Mohaymen 46.80 for the half mile. It was the best drill of 27 at Churchill Downs. Being one of his early supporters in futures and watching the poor FL Derby run I told myself I'd wait to see how he works over the track and comes out of his last race before I support him again at the windows. This first drill is a good step in that direct in what should be a nice price. I'll have to look for derby clocker reports or articles on Bloodhorse to see how easily he went, but a cursory look at the time is positive in my opinion. I'm sure other works will be a bit more relaxed going forward, but the sharp drill negates the feeling he may have been hurt in the FL Derby. Anyone still left on the Mohaymen bandwagon? Amazing how one poor race and he's basically an also ran in the minds of others.

Still considering him. However, his finish, on final time, in the Fountain of Youth was just as poor as his Florida Derby. His strong finish in the Holy Bull was aided by the very slow 1/2 Mile.

[f2tornado]

Still considering him. However, his finish, on final time, in the Fountain of Youth was just as poor as his Florida Derby. His strong finish in the Holy Bull was aided by the very slow 1/2 Mile.

And Creator, SBN, Exaggerator, Brody, and Sam were all aided by exceptionally fast early pace and eventual meltdown. Mohaymen looked geared down in the FOY. Passed the eye test. Don't know what happened in the FL Derby but did not look like the same horse. I have a feeling an average day for this horse is enough to hit the board but I will using sparingly on top. Covered that in future wager.

[Hoops McCann]

I liked Mohaymen a lot before his Florida Derby but that was a bad race. If he had finished a close 2nd I would've been ok with it. Maybe he bounces back in Kentucky but I don't like his chances. I do think it would be cool to have a Mohaymen, Lani, Creator grey Tapit trifecta. A million to one shot but it would be pretty awesome.

[cj]

I don't think his Florida Derby was near as bad as many think when you consider two things. One is pretty obvious, the ground he lost around both turns chasing a very good horse in Nyquist. He lost 5 to 6 lengths in ground to Nyquist. The other less obvious one is intent. He didn't need to win the Florida Derby and I don't think he was fully cranked for his best effort.

I don't know if he is good enough to win at Churchill but I do think he is a lot better than his 4th by 8 1/4 lengths would indicate.

[minethatbird08]

I don't think his Florida Derby was near as bad as many think when you consider two things. One is pretty obvious, the ground he lost around both turns chasing a very good horse in Nyquist. He lost 5 to 6 lengths in ground to Nyquist. The other less obvious one is intent. He didn't need to win the Florida Derby and I don't think he was fully cranked for his best effort.

I don't know if he is good enough to win at Churchill but I do think he is a lot better than his 4th by 8 1/4 lengths would indicate.

I have concern over Greenpointcrusader and Zulu not showing much next out. I liked Mohaymen but hard to back him when he has really only beaten Fellowship. We are talking small fields he faced on top of that.

[classhandicapper]

I think Mohaymen's Florida Derby was better than people think. People are acting like he came up completely empty in that race. I don't agree.

Nyquist may have been the main high quality speed in there, but I thought it was fairly tough up front for all the horses chasing him. Mohaymen was close up while losing a ton of ground and made a serious wide move to challenge Nyquist before weakening.

Copingaway was the first horse out of the race. He's a cheaper horse with moderate sprint speed that chased and died badly. He dropped into ALW company (albeit on turf) and ran well.

I think Mohaymen probably ran just as well there as he had in any of his previous races. The question I have is whether that will be good enough to win. He'll probably have to be better.

[Secondbest]

Another mystery in a race full mysteries.Best and toughest betting derby in a while.

[cj]

I think Mohaymen's Florida Derby was better than people think. People are acting like he came up completely empty in that race. I don't agree.

Nyquist may have been the main high quality speed in there, but I thought it was fairly tough up front for all the horses chasing him. Mohaymen was close up while losing a ton of ground and made a serious wide move to challenge Nyquist before weakening.

Copingaway was the first horse out of the race. He's a cheaper horse with moderate sprint speed that chased and died badly. He dropped into ALW company (albeit on turf) and ran well.

I think Mohaymen probably ran just as well there as he had in any of his previous races. The question I have is whether that will be good enough to win. He'll probably have to be better.

Did you just say the exact same thing I did, just jumbling the words around a little?

[SecretAgentMan]

For some horses, fast workouts don't turn into a KD win. Colonel John worked 5f in :57 in 2008, came in 6th in the derby, I can go on & on.

[Delta Cone]

Moyhamen reminds me a little bit of Thunder Gulch from 1995.

Thunder Gulch did nothing wrong, won most of his prep races, but threw in a clunker in his final prep in the Blue Grass.

For some reason the crowd dismissed him on Derby day and he won at something like 24-1.

Full disclosure: I also foolishly dismissed him and backed Tejano Run that year. :bang:

[Robert Fischer]

Florida Derby people think Mohaymen bad, I think.

[PICSIX]

For some horses, fast workouts don't turn into a KD win. Colonel John worked 5f in :57 in 2008, came in 6th in the derby, I can go on & on.

It's not how fast you work but how you work fast :lol:

[depalma113]

I think Mohaymen's Florida Derby was better than people think. People are acting like he came up completely empty in that race. I don't agree.


He was passed by two dog biscuits like he was standing still.

[classhandicapper]

Did you just say the exact same thing I did, just jumbling the words around a little?

It appears we have pretty much the same view. :lol:

[glengarry]

He was passed by two dog biscuits like he was standing still.

It was an awful effort, no other way to describe it. Word everywhere is that he wasn't cranked for his first 2 preps, and won effortlessly. I can't excuse his FD performance on lack of conditioning. Only excuse is he just hated the moisture in the surface. Ground loss or no ground loss, he was rejected by Nyquist within a few strides, and showed no gameness at any point. Kiaran said he was the best horse he ever had at that point. He certainly didn't look the part.

[classhandicapper]

He was passed by two dog biscuits like he was standing still.

I think he was used up chasing a fairly competitive pace while very wide. That accounts for him being tired late. I don't think that effort will be good enough to win the Derby, but these are lightly raced 3yos. So if you have a good reason to think he'll improve, I don't make him a toss off that race like some other people.

On the flip side, I'll probably need more than 10-1 to even begin to get interested (not that I've begun to make a line yet).

[glengarry]

I think he was used up chasing a fairly competitive pace while very wide. That accounts for him being tired late. I don't think that effort will be good enough to win the Derby, but these are lightly raced 3yos. So if you have a good reason to think he'll improve, I don't make him a toss off that race like some other people.

On the flip side, I'll probably need more than 10-1 to even begin to get interested (not that I've begun to make a line yet).

I need to find an excuse other than the trip. Real quality horses don't run like that unless they was a physical issue or a track they just hated. His prior races make him a contender, but that is not the type of prep to instill confidence. If he trains lights out, then he has to be considered. A lot of mixed signals to consider.

[SecretAgentMan]

It was an awful effort, no other way to describe it. Word everywhere is that he wasn't cranked for his first 2 preps, and won effortlessly. I can't excuse his FD performance on lack of conditioning. Only excuse is he just hated the moisture in the surface. Ground loss or no ground loss, he was rejected by Nyquist within a few strides, and showed no gameness at any point. Kiaran said he was the best horse he ever had at that point. He certainly didn't look the part.



Unless Kiaran told the jockey to hold Mo back, I can't figure out why he faded so bad. It looked like Lukas held Thunder Gulch back in his final prep after Gulch won some preps prior, & Lukas didn't want his horse beat up physically before the derby.

But I'm not buying Mohaymen last race as a horse that didn't like the slop. I feel confident in saying he won't win the derby, but will put him underneath in exotics.

[cj]

Unless Kiaran told the jockey to hold Mo back, I can't figure out why he faded so bad. It looked like Lukas held Thunder Gulch back in his final prep after Gulch won some preps prior, & Lukas didn't want his horse beat up physically before the derby.

But I'm not buying Mohaymen last race as a horse that didn't like the slop. I feel confident in saying he won't win the derby, but will put him underneath in exotics.


Well, they said after the race they got the trip they wanted. That tells me they weren't all that interested in winning the race.

[Blenheim]

I need to find an excuse other than the trip. Real quality horses don't run like that unless they was a physical issue or a track they just hated. His prior races make him a contender, but that is not the type of prep to instill confidence. If he trains lights out, then he has to be considered. A lot of mixed signals to consider.

An alternative explanation you might find interesting.

"One of the most subtle and least noticed problems in the sport is the deliberate intimidation of one horse by another during a race. Some highly competitive animals are so reluctant to let another pass that they swing their heads over and bite. This is known as savaging, which is against the rules, can lead to disqualification and is prevented by jockeys able to anticipate it. Unfortunately, a dominant horse can intimidate another without actually biting. Flattened ears, slightly swinging head, glaring eyes and popping tail are components of a message that never fails to intimidate a nearby horse. If that horse feels subservient, it will back up - even though it might actually be able to win the race if unintimidated.

Handicappers are advised to watch the videotape reruns of races displayed on monitors at many tracks. See whether the winner flattened the ears and popped the tail just instants before a neighboring runner tossed in the towel. If so, do not expect the intimidated horse to offer serious opposition when the two race against each other again." Ainslie

[boys at tosconova]

Voice: Chapter one. In order to manage risk we must first understand risk. How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk and what makes it so risky?

George: This guy sounds just like me.

Voice: To understand risk, we must first define risk.

George: This is horrible.

Voice: Risk is defined as–

George (banging the recorder): Stop it! Stop it!

[PaceMasterT]

An alternative explanation you might find interesting.

"One of the most subtle and least noticed problems in the sport is the deliberate intimidation of one horse by another during a race. Some highly competitive animals are so reluctant to let another pass that they swing their heads over and bite. This is known as savaging, which is against the rules, can lead to disqualification and is prevented by jockeys able to anticipate it. Unfortunately, a dominant horse can intimidate another without actually biting. Flattened ears, slightly swinging head, glaring eyes and popping tail are components of a message that never fails to intimidate a nearby horse. If that horse feels subservient, it will back up - even though it might actually be able to win the race if unintimidated.

Handicappers are advised to watch the videotape reruns of races displayed on monitors at many tracks. See whether the winner flattened the ears and popped the tail just instants before a neighboring runner tossed in the towel. If so, do not expect the intimidated horse to offer serious opposition when the two race against each other again." Ainslie


Sure looked to me like a horse with zero heart.

Stretch call of races previous to Florida Derby
1 by 1
1 by 2
1 by hd
1 by 2
2 by hd

stretch call of Florida Derby
3 by 3 1/2

My take. He entered the stretch for the first time ever looking at two horses in front of him and he didn't want to put forth any effort to pass them, so he gave up.

[raybo]

Well, they said after the race they got the trip they wanted. That tells me they weren't all that interested in winning the race.

I'm with you CJ! I think I posted something to that effect, before the race, here and got somewhat blasted for it, if I remember right.


I found it: http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129617&page=2&pp=40&highlight=mohaymen

Post #71

[yankeelpn]

But, TG made a mild bid to finish 4th in the BG. I had TG/Tejano Run that year and had multiple exactas and pl/show on TR.