"How odd of God to choose the Jews"

[VigorsTheGrey]

The information below is from the website:
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/arc/2005/odd.htm

It is well worth reading in full because it provides the tidiest narrative of the theological mytho/storyline that monotheists would have us believe and it is EXACTLY THIS STORYLINE that I personally object to as being a fiction. You are free to believe the story if you choose, I do not. I am not here to malign any group or persons. I am just saying that I personally do not believe in this narrative of our existence here on the planet earth....

Part 1 of 4:

"How odd of God to choose the Jews"

That famous couplet was written by British journalist William Norman Ewer (1885-1976). Yet, in the beginning, “God” didn’t exactly choose “the Jews” at all. The word “Jew” is a contraction of “Yahudim,” which means, “those of Yahweh.” The very name of this religious group implies that if there was any choosing to have been done, the Jews chose first and named themselves after Yahweh prior to a time when he might’ve chosen them.

Editor's Note: Read the rest (if you care) at the link above.

[TJDave]

Just what we need...

TWO religious threads. :rolleyes:

[boxcar]

Just what we need...

TWO religious threads. :rolleyes:

Yes, and that is what is really odd about Vigors. He apparently never noticed the one with the title "Religious" and over 500,000 views. How ironic he gets to post what he thinks is "odd". "Wow"! "Amazing"! :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

The information below is from the website:
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/arc/2005/odd.htm

It is well worth reading in full because it provides the tidiest narrative of the theological mytho/storyline that monotheists would have us believe and it is EXACTLY THIS STORYLINE that I personally object to as being a fiction. You are free to believe the story if you choose, I do not. I am not here to malign any group or persons. I am just saying that I personally do not believe in this narrative of our existence here on the planet earth....

Part 1 of 4:

"How odd of God to choose the Jews"

That famous couplet was written by British journalist William Norman Ewer (1885-1976). Yet, in the beginning, “God” didn’t exactly choose “the Jews” at all. The word “Jew” is a contraction of “Yahudim,” which means, “those of Yahweh.” The very name of this religious group implies that if there was any choosing to have been done, the Jews chose first and named themselves after Yahweh prior to a time when he might’ve chosen them.

Editor's Note: Read the rest (if you care) at the link above.In case you didn't notice when you registered, you are NOT permitted to reproduce the FULL TEXT of any copyrighted material found elsewhere, onto this website (PaceAdvantage.com). Thus I have edited your initial post and deleted the rest.

The website you linked to and reproduced here is indeed copyrighted.

[Clocker]

Just what we need...

TWO religious threads. :rolleyes:

Seems appropriate. When I started grade school, I learned that there were two religions, the Catholics and the Publics. So one thread for each.

I didn't read anything else here. Is this the Catholic or the Public thread? :confused:

[Spiderman]

OP was attempting to avoid my royalty origination payment :jump:

[Greyfox]

Just what we need...

TWO religious threads. :rolleyes:

I agree. :ThmbUp:

What is the purpose of this thread except to cause hostility down the road?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Yes, and that is what is really odd about Vigors. He apparently never noticed the one with the title "Religious" and over 500,000 views. How ironic he gets to post what he thinks is "odd". "Wow"! "Amazing"! :rolleyes:
Why is that ironic?

[PaceAdvantage]

I think the more interesting thread would be:

"How odd of Vigors (a self-professed atheist) to be so fascinated with the Jews"

Come on man...tell us what really gets you irked.

[VigorsTheGrey]

In case you didn't notice when you registered, you are NOT permitted to reproduce the FULL TEXT of any copyrighted material found elsewhere, onto this website (PaceAdvantage.com). Thus I have edited your initial post and deleted the rest.

The website you linked to and reproduced here is indeed copyrighted.

OK sorry about that. I looked to see if there was any copyright prohibition on the webpage itself and did not notice anything there.....Im a follow the rules type person so I'm glad you said and did something to correct my errors...... Did you have a chance to read the piece? I can't imagine how the article could provoke hostility from anyone. I thought it was very interesting indeed. Never before have I seen the monotheistic position articulated so simply and clearly....I found it very interesting that Abram was a Syrian.

As far as making another thread religious, maybe we could have a freethinkers thread where religious posters could be the unwanted stepsons instead of the other way around all the time. Funny, but I feel that the hostility that sometimes finds its way into the religious thread is often aimed at non believers...I feel I have to play the devils advocate all the time when I don't even believe in the devil....just being real.

[PaceAdvantage]

The copyright notice appears on this page (the home page) of www.jacksonsnyder.com

[Clocker]

maybe we could have a freethinkers thread where religious posters could be the unwanted stepsons instead of the other way around all the time.

Like a "safe space" for university students who don't want to be offended by politically incorrect ideas?

Perhaps PA could provide emotional counseling there also. :p

[boxcar]

Why is that ironic?

It stated in my paragraph. Get off the Kool Aid, already. It's clouding your mind.

[boxcar]

Like a "safe space" for university students who don't want to be offended by politically incorrect ideas?

Perhaps PA could provide emotional counseling there also. :p

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :ThmbUp:

Yeah, did you know in some University (can't recall the name right now but this did happen very recently), students were literally freaking out because someone (perhaps at night) wrote in crayon on the street or whatever something to the affect "Support Trump". The article went on to say that counseling sessions were open to all who felt the need. The poor traumatized babies. :lol: :lol:

We are truly living in Strange Days.

[TJDave]

I found it very interesting that Abram was a Syrian.


I would be mildly interested to know why you found this interesting.

Or, believable.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

It stated in my paragraph. Get off the Kool Aid, already. It's clouding your mind.
Ironic
:using words that mean the opposite of what you really think especially in order to be funny
: strange or funny because something (such as a situation) is different from what you expected

Another word you don't understand the meaning of. You are really having a bad month in terms of comprehension.

You see, once you leave Bibleworld, you don't get to make up the meaning of words.

I hope everyone is entertained that I point these things out to the "mighty wind" of PA, because honestly that is the only reason I point these things out to you. If you once, just once, said you were wrong about anything, I think about giving it a rest.

[VigorsTheGrey]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :ThmbUp:

Yeah, did you know in some University (can't recall the name right now but this did happen very recently), students were literally freaking out because someone (perhaps at night) wrote in crayon on the street or whatever something to the affect "Support Trump". The article went on to say that counseling sessions were open to all who felt the need. The poor traumatized babies. :lol: :lol:

We are truly living in Strange Days.

I knew I could lure boxcar over to the freethinkers thread...the wind bloweth where it listeth...he just can't resist a good argument....so is it or is it not odd, that god chose the Jews?

[boxcar]

Ironic
:using words that mean the opposite of what you really think especially in order to be funny
: strange or funny because something (such as a situation) is different from what you expected

Another word you don't understand the meaning of. You are really having a bad month in terms of comprehension.

You see, once you leave Bibleworld, you don't get to make up the meaning of words.

I hope everyone is entertained that I point these things out to the "mighty wind" of PA, because honestly that is the only reason I point these things out to you. If you once, just once, said you were wrong about anything, I think about giving it a rest.

Look up "irony". Then "incongruity". And then take the rest of the afternoon off. :rolleyes:

[VigorsTheGrey]

Look up "irony". Then "incongruity". And then take the rest of the afternoon off. :rolleyes:

Please will you boys keep to your own thread t'm trying to cultivate reason over here! Digression over the absurd is found on the other thread.... ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

I asked a reasonable question.

Why is an atheist so obsessed with Judaism?

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Look up "irony". Then "incongruity". And then take the rest of the afternoon off. :rolleyes:
I gave you the definition of ironic in my post. Good advice: read, then answer.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I asked a reasonable question.

Why is an atheist so obsessed with Judaism?

A fair question...but the word "obsessed" is more of an entanglement device used in this context....I prefer more psychologically neutral terms like "interested", e.g., "Why is an atheist so interested or mentally involved with Judaism? I'll have to give this some thought before I respond...It is a large question and certainly one that could be rephrased to include not just little ol' me. "What is with this "interest or mental involvement" with the Jews and Judaism throughout history?

[PaceAdvantage]

No, it's your interest I'm interested in...even when discussing Christianity you purposely insert Jews and Judaism into the mix...such as referring to Jesus as Jewish and a "Jewish Rabbi" (a little redundant, don't you think? Know any non-Jewish Rabbis?). As if Christians aren't aware of this fact. Or as if you're trying to inform them that they are so stupid as to worship a lowly Jew...at least that's how one could interpret your comments.

You pepper Judaism and Jews into almost every religious post of yours...it's a little unnerving.

Thus, my interest.

[VigorsTheGrey]

No, it's your interest I'm interested in...even when discussing Christianity you purposely insert Jews and Judaism into the mix...such as referring to Jesus as Jewish and a "Jewish Rabbi" (a little redundant, don't you think? Know any non-Jewish Rabbis?). As if Christians aren't aware of this fact. Or as if you're trying to inform them that they are so stupid as to worship a lowly Jew...at least that's how one could interpret your comments.

You pepper Judaism and Jews into almost every religious post of yours...it's a little unnerving.

Thus, my interest.

I think it is a fair and interesting question and one that I take very seriously...I need more time to ponder its significance...I thank you for posing the question to me...I will respond after some thoughtful deliberation on my part...

[VigorsTheGrey]

I asked a reasonable question.

Why is an atheist so obsessed with Judaism?

It is the combination of deity with ethnicity that I find so revolting...In Christianity, I'm being asked to worship an ethnic jew as messiah, lord, savior, king, and mono-God!

I would feel the same way if I was being asked to worship an ethnic Indian, Nigerian, Thai, German, Saudi, or American as lord, savior, king, and mono-God...

I find this mixture of ethnicity/ nationality, and deity revolting...

The god of the Jews is in my mind, an ethnic god, a tribal god...

I do not belong to their tribe so why should I worship their god? I'm sure that they would find the god of my tribe revolting as well....

[Clocker]

It is the combination of deity with ethnicity that I find so revolting...I'm being asked to worship an ethnic jew as messiah, lord, savior, king, and mono-God!

I find broccoli revolting. When I'm being asked to eat it, as a consenting adult, I just say no. I don't let the broccoli eaters get inside my head.

[Greyfox]

If one can't see that all humans have more in common, than they are different, no one in this thread will be able to say anything in this thread that will open his or her eyes.

[Clocker]

If one can't see that all humans have more in common, than they are different, no one in this thread will be able to say anything in this thread that will open his or her eyes.

If that was true, then blacks and Asians and others would find it in their hearts to "worship an ethnic jew as messiah", and that would obviously never happen in the real world. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

It is the combination of deity with ethnicity that I find so revolting...In Christianity, I'm being asked to worship an ethnic jew as messiah, lord, savior, king, and mono-God!

I would feel the same way if I was being asked to worship an ethnic Indian, Nigerian, Thai, German, Saudi, or American as lord, savior, king, and mono-God...

I find this mixture of ethnicity/ nationality, and deity revolting...

The god of the Jews is in my mind, an ethnic god, a tribal god...

I do not belong to their tribe so why should I worship their god? I'm sure that they would find the god of my tribe revolting as well....I really have no idea what the heck you are talking about in this mini-rant.

Nobody is asking you to do anything.

In addition, in case you haven't noticed, Christianity has its roots deeply embedded in Judaism. One big clue would be the fact that every Christian Bible contains both testaments. The "Old" Testament is in fact the Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible...and within the Tanakh lies the Torah, or first five books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy).

Why wouldn't Christians be following what you like to call an "ethnic Jew?" The major difference between Jews and Christians is that Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah while Jews do not (and consequently, Jews continue to follow the "old covenant" and the law of Moses while Christians do not). Jews are still waiting, so to speak. If Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah, then they both would be following that same "ethnic Jew."

Hope this clears things up for you.

[dnlgfnk]

I truly do not understand the patience and "beating around the bush" regarding this fellow's anti-semitism. Googling for some point of reference with which to oppose both Jew and Christian, he stumbles upon a Lone Ranger who is part Nazarene, part Messianic Christian, and something called "Yahad" (Together).

This tiny fraction, at odds with historical Judeo-Christian thought is then propped up as representative of what he is being "asked" to accept. I wouldn't ask you to accept this, Vigors. I don't myself.

If you had wanted to discuss why I accept first causes, that the first cause cannot be material, the presence of teleology which the early moderns swept under the rug, and many other deductions which lead to me to theism, I may have been tempted. But not in your current state.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I really have no idea what the heck you are talking about in this mini-rant.

Nobody is asking you to do anything.

In addition, in case you haven't noticed, Christianity has its roots deeply embedded in Judaism. One big clue would be the fact that every Christian Bible contains both testaments. The "Old" Testament is in fact the Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible...and within the Tanakh lies the Torah, or first five books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy).

Why wouldn't Christians be following what you like to call an "ethnic Jew?" The major difference between Jews and Christians is that Christians accept Jesus as the Messiah while Jews do not (and consequently, Jews continue to follow the "old covenant" and the law of Moses while Christians do not). Jews are still waiting, so to speak. If Jews believed Jesus was the Messiah, then they both would be following that same "ethnic Jew."

Hope this clears things up for you.

That was not a "mini-rant". I calmly and thoughtfully stated my position...that's all....As a human being, I am entitled to my own feelings and thoughts....I'm not hurting anyone, am I? So it is not a "rant" mini or otherwise....

Here is a verse from the hebrew bible...

"The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11–17)"
This is a classic case of mixing tribalism with the mono-deity....I simply do not believe this and find it revolting....there is nothing unusual about a certain tribe of people expressing their beliefs in their tribal gods....the mere stating of the verse does not mean that it is a fact or will become a fact....I am 100 percent sure that it is not a fact and will never be a fact...that is my opinion, it is not a rant....

[Clocker]

I truly do not understand the patience and "beating around the bush" regarding this fellow's anti-semitism. Googling for some point of reference with which to oppose both Jew and Christian, he stumbles upon a Lone Ranger who is part Nazarene, part Messianic Christian, and something called "Yahad" (Together).

It's all perfectly logical. He has a hard-on for Jews because he has a hard-on for Christians because Christianity was founded by a Jew, and Christians should know better than to follow a Jew. :p

[VigorsTheGrey]

It's all perfectly logical. He has a hard-on for Jews because he has a hard-on for Christians because Christianity was founded by a Jew, and Christians should know better than to follow a Jew. :p

While I may indeed be difficult I assure you there is nothing about me that is "hard"....I am long past that age of mental acumen :)

[VigorsTheGrey]

I truly do not understand the patience and "beating around the bush" regarding this fellow's anti-semitism. Googling for some point of reference with which to oppose both Jew and Christian, he stumbles upon a Lone Ranger who is part Nazarene, part Messianic Christian, and something called "Yahad" (Together).

This tiny fraction, at odds with historical Judeo-Christian thought is then propped up as representative of what he is being "asked" to accept. I wouldn't ask you to accept this, Vigors. I don't myself.

If you had wanted to discuss why I accept first causes, that the first cause cannot be material, the presence of teleology which the early moderns swept under the rug, and many other deductions which lead to me to theism, I may have been tempted. But not in your current state.

You see, I am not as dull as all of you think I am...I knew all of you would have a difficult time with the ethno-deity combo...

[VigorsTheGrey]

I find broccoli revolting. When I'm being asked to eat it, as a consenting adult, I just say no. I don't let the broccoli eaters get inside my head.

You are 100 percent on this one....it's those dern broccoli eaters again! Why do they have to have hold their festivals every year at the same time, over and over again! Nobody can't get away from them....It's the invasion of the broccoli snatchers! Don't they know how revolting their broccoli is for us? I don't want to be another pod person!

[Fager Fan]

It is the combination of deity with ethnicity that I find so revolting...In Christianity, I'm being asked to worship an ethnic jew as messiah, lord, savior, king, and mono-God!

I would feel the same way if I was being asked to worship an ethnic Indian, Nigerian, Thai, German, Saudi, or American as lord, savior, king, and mono-God...

I find this mixture of ethnicity/ nationality, and deity revolting...

The god of the Jews is in my mind, an ethnic god, a tribal god...

I do not belong to their tribe so why should I worship their god? I'm sure that they would find the god of my tribe revolting as well....

You won't be able to name a person who had a more positive and loving influence on our world than Jesus, and you have a problem with Jesus because he was a Jew? You find it "revolting" to follow the teachings of a Jew?

The word "racist" is 99% misused these days, but you are fitting of the term.

[Fager Fan]

You are 100 percent on this one....it's those dern broccoli eaters again! Why do they have to have hold their festivals every year at the same time, over and over again! Nobody can't get away from them....It's the invasion of the broccoli snatchers! Don't they know how revolting their broccoli is for us? I don't want to be another pod person!

You've got a real problem pal. You have a lot of hate and intolerance in your heart. Atheism is a barren and rocky place.

[Tom]

Atheism is a barren and rocky place.

Yes, and you can't grow broccoli in rocks.

[098poi]

I must say from the beginning I found this thread odd. VTG had also started some thread about the WTC building. With that there are many unanswered questions but YouTube can be well intended but very misleading. I have a friend (I am 59 he is 60) and he still emails me links to YT vids about JFK. That is fascinating subject too but I told him I just delete the links. Too much already.

Back to this tread though. I am Jewish and grew up in the Jewish heartland of Roslyn, LI. (NY) I was not bar mitzvahed though all my friends were. I have always had a spiritual bent and something would resonate in me whenever there were discussions of God etc. (Certain substances in high school aided those discussions)
What I know of Judaism, Christianity and any other religion I really found out on my own. I am hardly a scholar on any of them.

The basic notion that VTG presents is not uncommon. The idea that GOD has decided to present himself to the whole of mankind through let's say Christianity or Judaism. What about any number of other religions that have nothing to do with that. How about Native American concepts of God or tribal African concepts. What about the Aztecs or the Mayans and on and on. Maybe the Greeks were right, not one God but many. So this is hardly new and any young person coming in to self awareness has these questions. I have never heard the argument that VTG has, "It is the combination of deity with ethnicity that I find so revolting...In Christianity, I'm being asked to worship an ethnic jew as messiah, lord, savior, king, and mono-God!"

That is a bit odd to me.

It doesn't bother me and I have no problem with atheists. I believe God is real and doesn't exist because I believe in him/her. God has a relationship with all of us. It is my relationship with God that needs constant work.

[Clocker]

I knew all of you would have a difficult time with the ethno-deity combo...

So you are claiming that the God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament?

If you are seriously revolted by the situation, which is hard to believe any rational person would care about, you shouldn't have a problem with the Jews for foisting their God on the rest of the world, you should have a problem with Christians for being so gullible that they would fall for it.

Or are you trying to replace the Easter Bunny with your new ethno-semi-deity Easter Troll?

[VigorsTheGrey]

You've got a real problem pal. You have a lot of hate and intolerance in your heart. Atheism is a barren and rocky place.
I assure you my heart is not full of hate. I am a kind caring loving person who just happens to not believe in the gods of yore. Perhaps today is not such good day to be exchanging thoughts on the varied forms or nonforms of the godhead. I want everyone to enjoy their Sunday including non theists so I wish everyone a happy happy and only ask that people be kind and caring with each other despite our intellectual differences....

[Fager Fan]

I assure you my heart is not full of hate. I am a kind caring loving person who just happens to not believe in the gods of yore. Perhaps today is not such good day to be exchanging thoughts on the varied forms or nonforms of the godhead. I want everyone to enjoy their Sunday including non theists so I wish everyone a happy happy and only ask that people be kind and caring with each other despite our intellectual differences....

You admitted revulsion for Jews and Christianity, so you're not nearly as loving as you want to think you are.

[VigorsTheGrey]

You admitted revulsion for Jews and Christianity, so you're not nearly as loving as you want to think you are.
The one eyed Odin hanging out in a tree revolting as well...whenever one particular tribe of humans elevate their tribal deities to universal gods suitable for all...this is what I find revolting...it has nothing to do with Jews or Christians or Muslims per se,
..although in modern times these three seem now to be the more vocal in insisting, through their various scriptures that all ought to or will one day anyway bend the knee to their particular tribal master...

[Greyfox]

...this is what I find revolting...it has nothing to do with Jews or Christians or Muslims per se,
.

Right. That's why you chose the title of this thread eh? It has nothing per se to do with them. :rolleyes:

[Secondbest]

I assure you my heart is not full of hate. I am a kind caring loving person who just happens to not believe in the gods of yore. Perhaps today is not such good day to be exchanging thoughts on the varied forms or nonforms of the godhead. I want everyone to enjoy their Sunday including non theists so I wish everyone a happy happy and only ask that people be kind and caring with each other despite our intellectual differences....
Your full of shit. You Couch your anti- semitism in polite words but a bigot is a bigot.You didn't mention Islam or shintoism (japanese ancestor worship)or Buddhism no you picked Judaísm because you hate Jews no matter how you phrase it.
You say your Being asked to worship the "Jewish God" tell us when someone came up to you and asked you to convert. My guess is never.

[PaceAdvantage]

The one eyed Odin hanging out in a tree revolting as well...whenever one particular tribe of humans elevate their tribal deities to universal gods suitable for all...this is what I find revolting...it has nothing to do with Jews or Christians or Muslims per se,
..although in modern times these three seem now to be the more vocal in insisting, through their various scriptures that all ought to or will one day anyway bend the knee to their particular tribal master...Unlike certain areas of Islam, NOBODY on the Christian side of things is holding a gun to your head and demanding you to worship their "Jewish God."

So I don't understand this rhetoric from you - "one particular tribe of humans elevate their tribal deities to universal gods suitable for all"

Christianity is POPULAR and has ENDURED precisely because people actually believe in and have faith in the tenants of the religion. It's not because they are "elevating" or "forcing" it upon you (although this may have been the case at certain times centuries ago). We are living in modern times. People actually have a choice. So if Christianity is still popular worldwide (which it is), that is because PEOPLE themselves have put stock into the belief system. Not because it's been forced upon them as you seem to say.

[098poi]

One of my favorite jokes, which I may have posted before.

How do they know Jesus was Jewish?


He lived with his parents till he was 30.

He went into his father's business.

His mother thought he was God. :)

[boxcar]

Yes, and you can't grow broccoli in rocks.

:lol: :lol: :ThmbUp: Neither can it be grown in dark, vacuous attics if you get my drift.

[boxcar]

Your full of shit. You Couch your anti- semitism in polite words but a bigot is a bigot.You didn't mention Islam or shintoism (japanese ancestor worship)or Buddhism no you picked Judaísm because you hate Jews no matter how you phrase it.
You say your Being asked to worship the "Jewish God" tell us when someone came up to you and asked you to convert. My guess is never.

You're on the mark, I believe. If Vig was simply incredulous that God would choose any one family of any one clan of any one tribe of any one nation, he would have likely expressed that incredulity with much broader brush strokes, e.g. Why Would God have to choose any nation in order to have the Messiah come into the world?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Your full of shit. You Couch your anti- semitism in polite words but a bigot is a bigot.You didn't mention Islam or shintoism (japanese ancestor worship)or Buddhism no you picked Judaísm because you hate Jews no matter how you phrase it.
You say your Being asked to worship the "Jewish God" tell us when someone came up to you and asked you to convert. My guess is never.

I assure you I am not a bigot..a bigot is a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. I am not intolerant of anybody's views or opinions. I have maintained that from the beginning....In my mind, everyone is free to believe what they wish or what works for them as long as they don't go about being violent or using their beliefs to those ends.....

I am only expressing how I feel and think about various things....The fact that I find certain things about religion revolting should not necessarily influence you...they are only my opinions and I am entitled to them as you are yours....

I am thankful I live in a zone on the planet where the general population is not so intolerant of the opinions of others that they resort to violence and murder....my leaders may...but at least the general population is somewhat tolerant.....I don't know what I would do if I lived in zone where islam and sharia law was enforced....I probably would not be alive....but whether or not the murderous actions of terrorists are justified depends highly on one's own viewpoint, there is enough wrong doing to go around, politically speaking to justify any view....but I might remind everyone that our "side" has a tendency to not track the war dead of the other side civilian and opposition alike.....Many hundreds of thousands of essentially innocent persons have died in foreign lands as the results of our efforts to fight terrorism....but I diverge...

You and pace are correct, nobody is asking me or forcing me to believe or worship their gods, yet, but this tendency does surface periodically in history and will no doubt happen again....just look what is happening elsewhere in the world....It is scripture itself that is asking me to believe and bend the knee to the god written about therein...

[Clocker]

It is scripture itself that is asking me to believe and bend the knee to the god written about therein...

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Then don't do that.

[Fager Fan]

Why don't you tell us specifically what you find revolting about religion and then we can determine if you're a bigot or not?

Your one offering this far seems to be that you find it revolting that a great many follow the teachings of a Jew.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Why don't you tell us specifically what you find revolting about religion and then we can determine if you're a bigot or not?

Your one offering this far seems to be that you find it revolting that a great many follow the teachings of a Jew.

One of the things I find revolting about Christianity in particular walking into a church and seeing the near naked depiction of christ crucified...I find this to be very barbaric and do not find anything particularly redeeming about it...I wonder why Jews themselves are not more disturbed by having one of their own tribe depicted in this manner and why the charge of anti-semitism is not leveled directly....supposed it was an asian or an american indian or an african or you pick a tribal member...supposed it was an American depicted in this manner in virtually every city on the globe?
Obviously, many if not all jews, who practice judaism, do not believe that jesus is god or is the jewish messiah, so I am not alone in this....The muslims find any depiction of Allah taboo and extremely offensive, so I am wondering why jews put up with a member of their own (race, tribe, ethnicity) being nailed to a cross and hung up in churches....just doesn't make any sense to me....

Why don't more people find this more shocking, I guess I dislike being part of a system of morals and ethics that has the sacrifice of a father's son as the sine qua non (without which, no) of the system....It just doesn't make any sense to me that God the Father would sacrifice his very own innocent self in God the Son to supposedly redeem all of mankind for the first woman eating an apple...the whole story seems monstrously incoherent and unbelievable from the very beginning and to have such a murderous act as the centerpiece is both disturbing and for me, at least, distasteful....You have to expect some people to view this scene in a completely different light....than what is commonly expected or taught....I am one of those people

[Grits]

VigorsTheGrey, at Pace Advantage, of all days in the Christian year, on Easter Sunday you write that you find the church revolting, disturbing.

With no belief in anything. Why on earth would you ever be found in a church to begin with?

Maybe marriages, funerals? No, both are sacraments. Why bother?

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing.

[Tall One]

So....maybe i mis-understood the Today show this morning, but the shootings/killings yesterday against middle eastern Christians paying reverence to Easter was because they weren't Muslims? Taliban saying they're responsible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, the "half-naked" Christ on the Cross is a reminder he died for our sins, and not as a turn off for some. No different than the Bald Eagle as a symbol of our Freedom in these Untied States.

I agree, Grits. This nut picks Easter weekend to take a stance. I just don't understand it, but you nailed it with this:

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing. :ThmbUp:

[boxcar]

So....maybe i mis-understood the Today show this morning, but the shootings/killings yesterday against middle eastern Christians paying reverence to Easter was because they weren't Muslims? Taliban saying they're responsible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, the "half-naked" Christ on the Cross is a reminder he died for our sins, and not as a turn off for some. No different than the Bald Eagle as a symbol of our Freedom in these Untied States.

I agree, Grits. This nut picks Easter weekend to take a stance. I just don't understand it, but you nailed it with this:

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing. :ThmbUp:



As the apostle John said, "....even now many antichrists have arisen...". How appropriate this one should raise his ugly banner and parade his reprobate mind over the Easter weekend.

[onefast99]

One of the things I find revolting about Christianity in particular walking into a church and seeing the near naked depiction of christ crucified...I find this to be very barbaric and do not find anything particularly redeeming about it...I wonder why Jews themselves are not more disturbed by having one of their own tribe depicted in this manner and why the charge of anti-semitism is not leveled directly....supposed it was an asian or an american indian or an african or you pick a tribal member...supposed it was an American depicted in this manner in virtually every city on the globe?
Obviously, many if not all jews, who practice judaism, do not believe that jesus is god or is the jewish messiah, so I am not alone in this....The muslims find any depiction of Allah taboo and extremely offensive, so I am wondering why jews put up with a member of their own (race, tribe, ethnicity) being nailed to a cross and hung up in churches....just doesn't make any sense to me....

Why don't more people find this more shocking, I guess I dislike being part of a system of morals and ethics that has the sacrifice of a father's son as the sine qua non (without which, no) of the system....It just doesn't make any sense to me that God the Father would sacrifice his very own innocent self in God the Son to supposedly redeem all of mankind for the first woman eating an apple...the whole story seems monstrously incoherent and unbelievable from the very beginning and to have such a murderous act as the centerpiece is both disturbing and for me, at least, distasteful....You have to expect some people to view this scene in a completely different light....than what is commonly expected or taught....I am one of those peopleMany of the things you write about is exactly the propaganda ISIS uses as an excuse to murder, torture and destroy. Are you against what ISIS and even Al Queda stand for?

[Tom]

Why don't you tell us specifically what you find revolting about religion and then we can determine if you're a bigot or not?



You still have doubts? :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Has Vigors ever informed us as to his background? His upbringing? Where he grew up?

I'd be curious to know some of these things...might put some of this into perspective.

[Fager Fan]

You still have doubts? :rolleyes:

I just don't even know how to respond to the latest, where the image of Jesus on the cross is something he finds revolting.

I'm envisioning a reaction like Damian had when they drove up to the front of the church.

[boxcar]

I just don't even know how to respond to the latest, where the image of Jesus on the cross is something he finds revolting.

I'm envisioning a reaction like Damian had when they drove up to the front of the church.

Hah...you might be onto something: Vigs is possessed. :eek: :eek:

[VigorsTheGrey]

VigorsTheGrey, at Pace Advantage, of all days in the Christian year, on Easter Sunday you write that you find the church revolting, disturbing.

With no belief in anything. Why on earth would you ever be found in a church to begin with?

Maybe marriages, funerals? No, both are sacraments. Why bother?

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing.

In Post 41 I said exactly this: I assure you my heart is not full of hate. I am a kind caring loving person who just happens to not believe in the gods of yore. Perhaps today is not such good day to be exchanging thoughts on the varied forms or nonforms of the godhead. I want everyone to enjoy their Sunday including non theists so I wish everyone a happy happy and only ask that people be kind and caring with each other despite our intellectual differences....

[VigorsTheGrey]

I just don't even know how to respond to the latest, where the image of Jesus on the cross is something he finds revolting.

I'm envisioning a reaction like Damian had when they drove up to the front of the church.

In post 52 you asked "Why don't you tell us specifically what you find revolting about religion and then we can determine if you're a bigot or not?

Your one offering this far seems to be that you find it revolting that a great many follow the teachings of a Jew."

So I calmly and thoughtfully tried to explain my personal feelings which I am entitled to as a living breathing human being....not all humans think or feel alike, some people are revolted by broccoli..I am revolted by gory images...seeing another human being impaled, bloodied, and suffering an unnatural torturous death I believe constitutes a gory image...why wouldn't I be revolted?

[Fager Fan]

God isn't a "god of yore "

[Tall One]

.I am revolted by gory images...seeing another human being impaled, bloodied, and suffering an unnatural torturous death I believe constitutes a gory image...why wouldn't I be revolted?


The Church i attend regularly (Methodist) has a white cross on display behind the pulpit. It does not have anything you describe anywhere, sir. Have we all seen graphic depictions of his crucifixion? Of course...that's the purpose of it.

I will say, that what you have written, would seem more appropriate for a youtube clip showing what the radical Muslims prefer to do to members of the Christian faith, or frankly, any innocent victim that stands in the way of their beliefs.

[VigorsTheGrey]

VigorsTheGrey, at Pace Advantage, of all days in the Christian year, on Easter Sunday you write that you find the church revolting, disturbing.

With no belief in anything. Why on earth would you ever be found in a church to begin with?

Maybe marriages, funerals? No, both are sacraments. Why bother?

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing.

I am still new here to PaceAdvantage...is there something religious about Pace Advantage that I should know about but don't....I was posting in the general discussion area of the website....Are there certain taboo topics that anyone should not bring up here? Let me know...I like to discuss intellectual topics so...I'd hate to think that I was unwanted just because I don't think like everybody else....Horse racing is just one thing that I am interested in religion is another but I like to discuss other topics as well such as the French Enlightenment period, or European history for example, or philosophy in general. I just like to talk with intelligent persons and I sense there are many intelligent people here at Pace I want to make friends but I don't want to feel like I can't be free to express my opinions...

[VigorsTheGrey]

So....maybe i mis-understood the Today show this morning, but the shootings/killings yesterday against middle eastern Christians paying reverence to Easter was because they weren't Muslims? Taliban saying they're responsible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, the "half-naked" Christ on the Cross is a reminder he died for our sins, and not as a turn off for some. No different than the Bald Eagle as a symbol of our Freedom in these Untied States.

I agree, Grits. This nut picks Easter weekend to take a stance. I just don't understand it, but you nailed it with this:

In this life, I would rather stand for something than crawl for nothing. :ThmbUp:



In Post 41 I said exactly this: I assure you my heart is not full of hate. I am a kind caring loving person who just happens to not believe in the gods of yore. Perhaps today is not such good day to be exchanging thoughts on the varied forms or nonforms of the godhead. I want everyone to enjoy their Sunday including non theists so I wish everyone a happy happy and only ask that people be kind and caring with each other despite our intellectual differences....

I am not a nut and I did not pick this day to take a stance...I would not have replied were I not asked to reply by another poster....I assure you I am a normal person with rational thoughts and human feeling...I hurt also so your comments hurt...I am not directing my remarks and opinions to anyone personally so please do not take them personally...they are just my opinions...

[Grits]

VTG, you ignored my questions about yourself and the church. You also ignored PA's regarding your background. (I'm a lifelong Episcopalian, by the way.) And, PA would have to answer your questions about taboo topics. He owns the site, no one else.

There's an old saying we have here in the South:

If you have it, I'll know it. You won't have to tell me.

This includes those who are intellectuals, those who are kind, those who are caring and so on. Then, too, it also includes braggarts and @$$es, neither seem to realize they're fundamentally, one in the same. They are quite obvious! Like in, right away!!

As to your bolded text, yes, perhaps it wasn't such a good day to voice such beliefs. Yet that didn't slow you down now did it? You pressed onward until last night after 8pm making your points known on a High Holy Day (there are few of those in the Christian Church) you couldn't care less about.. other than to refute. Didn't you have something better to do, maybe, with family yesterday?

I see your post as in really poor taste, topped with bad timing. Unfortunate disrespect for something you're not a part of.

Good luck going forward with French Enlightenment and Euro History....this last one, we kinda limit to that big Grade 1 turf race there, the Arc, and that's about it. The Hitler stuff never ends well here. :lol:

[VigorsTheGrey]

VTG, you ignored my questions about yourself and the church. You also ignored PA's regarding your background. (I'm a lifelong Episcopalian, by the way.) And, PA would have to answer your questions about taboo topics. He owns the site, no one else.

There's an old saying we have here in the South:

If you have it, I'll know it. You won't have to tell me.

This includes those who are intellectuals, those who are kind, those who are caring and so on. Then, too, it also includes braggarts and @$$es, neither seem to realize they're fundamentally, one in the same. They are quite obvious! Like in, right away!!

As to your bolded text, yes, perhaps it wasn't such a good day to voice such beliefs. Yet that didn't slow you down now did it? You pressed onward until last night after 8pm making your points known on a High Holy Day (there are few of those in the Christian Church) you couldn't care less about.. other than to refute. Didn't you have something better to do, maybe, with family yesterday?

I see your post as in really poor taste, topped with bad timing. Unfortunate disrespect for something you're not a part of.

Good luck going forward with French Enlightenment and Euro History....this last one, we kinda limit to that big Grade 1 turf race there, the Arc, and that's about it. The Hitler stuff never ends well here. :lol:

Thank you for your reply Grits...it is nice to know that someone does care about me as an individual and doesn't just write me off as a nutcase, braggart, or other...I am not trying to be anything but just myself...It does not surprise me that issues surrounding religion are often emotionally charged because many people take their religion very very seriously....so do I. And I do respect you and other persons views....I am not an intolerant person, nor am I in any way a violent person... And believe me I dislike as much the horrible events that occurred on Easter day just as much as you do...

With regard to my intellectual background, I am currently a freethinker...I was born a freethinker but like most was exposed to religion during my teens.
My friends would try to convince me to become a christian, saying that I just had to believe in god. It was not convinced. I never had a very clear idea of what the word god meant, and for that matter, still don't....However, during my late teens I developed a mental crisis, left home, and found myself at a christian community location where I "found the lord" was baptized, became filled with the spirit, spoke in tongues, was slain in the spirit, and other things that were common then in a period of time when the Pentecostal Movement was reviving...At that time you could say that I was a Pentecostal Christian...and I must say that it was one of the more happier moments in my life...I served the lord for a year without pay and then I went to Bible school for a year and received a certificate in religious education associated with a more mainstream christian church....All this happened between 16 and 20 years of age....I then went to junior college and started to study English and Shakespeare.
I credit my Shakespeare teacher for initiating my movement away from Christianity, and later I began studying Frazier's "The Golden Bough"...I have studied religion, mythology, history, philosophy, literature, and some political tracts as well....I like to read and have read many books...
When I was 20, my brother committed suicide, and I fell away completely from a religious approach to life....I had prayed for my brother for 2 years prior to his death...I still carry the scars of this enormous wound with me...there are some things in life that time will never heal...
I flirted with returning to the christian fold numerous times but it never again had the same kind of draw for me as it did when I first accepted the faith....As recently as 2 years ago I was regularly attending an Episcopalian church and seemed to somewhat enjoy the experience of fellowship with other christians....But I just can't bring myself to believe in the dogma and the overall story line....I was in church because I need to belong to something that goes beyond a private existence....I don't like the feeling of being unaffiliated all time....so I pretended to believe just to fit in, and oftentimes still do...it is only on the internet that I feel I can be the real me....I was hoping that Pace could be a place where I could do that...having read Thaskalos' posts seemed to encourage me to open up more and not live in fear over what I believe....But I now feel that I can no longer do that here...and I am wondering if not here, then where can I just be me?

[Tall One]

Won't even bother reading all that (Paragraphs are your friend) so we'll leave it at not seeing eye to eye. I will respect your reply too me, because this is a message board and you're entitled to an opinion.

Just maybe, in the future, pick another day/weekend to start a thread of this nature.

[NJ Stinks]

it is only on the internet that I feel I can be the real me....I was hoping that Pace could be a place where I could do that...having read Thaskalos' posts seemed to encourage me to open up more and not live in fear over what I believe....But I now feel that I can no longer do that here...and I am wondering if not here, then where can I just be me?


First and foremost, Vigors, you are screwed if the internet is the only place you can be yourself. So unscrew yourself. You are young and and I assume not complicated by a serious relationship. Move. Leave where you are and look for a real place where you can be happy being yourself.

As for being yourself here, you can. Just be ready to be stoned occasionally. Many here have sincere religious and conservative beliefs - in case you haven't noticed. And have no problem being themselves. :)

P.S. Much saddened to hear about your brother.

[Greyfox]

You are young and and I assume not complicated by a serious relationship. .

Young? How did you derive that from a poster who refers to himself as "The Grey?"

[VigorsTheGrey]

Young? How did you derive that from a poster who refers to himself as "The Grey?"

Vigors was a white horse...but I decided to use the word "grey" because everyone is so intolerant nowadays.... I thought the word "white" might be construed as a pejorative by non-whites... so so I chose the neutral term "grey"
In this case, "grey" has to do with color...I didn't think that the name "VigorsTheWhite" would go over too well....I'm having enough problems with VigorsThe Grey....I'm thinking of reincarnating myself with another name and starting over and devoid of controversial postings....what do you say Pace?

[Dave Schwartz]

Vigors was a white horse...but I decided to use the word "grey" because everyone is so intolerant nowadays.... I thought the word "white" might be construed as a pejorative by non-whites... so so I chose the neutral term "grey"
In this case, "grey" has to do with color...I didn't think that the name "VigorsTheWhite" would go over too well....I'm having enough problems with VigorsThe Grey....I'm thinking of reincarnating myself with another name and starting over and devoid of controversial postings....what do you say Pace?
Today 05:14 PM

How nice that you are so concerned about how people might perceive you.

[VigorsTheGrey]

How nice that you are so concerned about how people might perceive you.

Well, when so many people are "inferring" that I could be a jerk maybe I'd better start listening, huh? There is a price for free thinking. I should know better...free is never free I don't want people getting the wrong idea and thinking that I am some sort of anti-boxcar counterpart, do I?

[incoming]

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Dating website are generally listed on the right sometimes on top. :blush: :blush: ;)

[Secondbest]

Well, when so many people are "inferring" that I could be a jerk maybe I'd better start listening, huh? There is a price for free thinking. I should know better...free is never free
You said were not a bigot but you never disputed me when I said you were an anti - semite. Everything you wrote proves Thats What you are.
You Also hate Christianity.Attacking on Easter just shows What you really are
You call it free thinking. i call it bigotry

[Tom]

I just don't even know how to respond to the latest, where the image of Jesus on the cross is something he finds revolting.

I'm envisioning a reaction like Damian had when they drove up to the front of the church.

Pretty low class.
The guy is disgusting.
I guess i will have to release Chuckles the Clown from IGGY to make room for him. We need more IGGY slots.

[VigorsTheGrey]

You said were not a bigot but you never disputed me when I said you were an anti - semite. Everything you wrote proves Thats What you are.
You Also hate Christianity.Attacking on Easter just shows What you really are
You call it free thinking. i call it bigotry

I don't like to use the word "hate" in any of my friendly dialogues with others...It is much too loaded of a word...I don't "hate" anybody or anything...I said that some things do not agree with me....and I used a powerful word to do this...that is all. And I am not "attacking" anything...that is not my nature...

I'm a human...I get to have likes and dislikes and so forth....I'm not going to pretend that I go along with things that I don't....I've done that too long in my life....

I'm sorry I just can't believe that there is some sort of Jehovian God watching over our every moves, and knowing all the hairs on our heads, knowing our thoughts, etc, that someday is He going to judge us all, and find us wanting or passing and send us all to Hell or Heaven....

I don't believe in Jehovah and Jehovah is the God of Jews and Christians, is that so wrong? Does that make me a bad person for believing in MY TRUTH just as fervently as believers do theirs? But I do not hate anyone or anything in this world.....I fear many people and things but I do not hate them

[PaceAdvantage]

You still never really answered my questions about your background. You're anonymous, so I don't really see why this is being avoided, but that's your call.

Most people are exposed to religion as children, yet you say it wasn't until you were in your teens (and you write "like most people," which simply isn't the case). This is unusual, at least in this country.

Were you born and raised in the USA?

[VigorsTheGrey]

You still never really answered my questions about your background. You're anonymous, so I don't really see why this is being avoided, but that's your call.

Most people are exposed to religion as children, yet you say it wasn't until you were in your teens (and you write "like most people," which simply isn't the case). This is unusual, at least in this country.

Were you born and raised in the USA?

Dear Pace, I want you to know that I am leaving your website because it is obvious to all that I do not belong with this group of posters and that for what ever reason my personality and belief system and ways of expression are not good for your website....since I do care about people I think it best to leave....if I have offended anybody I apologize sincerely and I hope people can accept a heart felt apology...I think you have a great website and I wish you and everyone the best of luck....Vigors

[PaceAdvantage]

Another odd deflection to my question.

Whatevs.

BTW, we all have pretty thick skins here. Don't worry about upsetting someone. Nobody else does.

[Rookies]

Dear Pace, I want you to know that I am leaving your website because it is obvious to all that I do not belong with this group of posters and that for what ever reason my personality and belief system and ways of expression are not good for your website....since I do care about people I think it best to leave....if I have offended anybody I apologize sincerely and I hope people can accept a heart felt apology...I think you have a great website and I wish you and everyone the best of luck....Vigors

I'm a human...I get to have likes and dislikes and so forth....I'm not going to pretend that I go along with things that I don't....I've done that too long in my life...."

The two statements are somewhat contradictory, so you either want to have your cake, eat it to and damn the torpedoes when you're attacked for your opinions/beliefs/etc. OR you leave.

As PA has pointed out, this section of this 🐎 Racing site, is frequently a no holds barred scrum, where most people disagree... STRONGLY... on politics and all the tangent issues that fall from that tree. Some persons have decided to dig a moral line in the sand, whereby, if crossed, they leave- and have. The vast majority of us stay and comment from time to time or like Tommy- ad infinitum daily. :lol:

There are those, even after almost a decade here, who still try and throw up the xenophobic & jingoistic smoke screens at me, to try and knock me off my opinions.

Like I give 2 shits about their useless attempts!

I, like you and everyone else, are here at the pleasure of the owner- period. (And he and I clash about 95% of the time! ;) ) But I have met him and several others at the Spa, where horsies are the only topic of discussion and all of us, regardless of perspective here, are civil and fine fellows & ladies.

With all due respect, my advice? Grow a titanium pair and stay. If you think you need to recalibrate gears in your message, without a 180, hell, do so. Stepping over the line occasionally here is part of the territory and slightly changing or even apologizing is the way it works.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Dear Pace, I want you to know that I am leaving your website because it is obvious to all that I do not belong with this group of posters and that for what ever reason my personality and belief system and ways of expression are not good for your website....since I do care about people I think it best to leave....if I have offended anybody I apologize sincerely and I hope people can accept a heart felt apology...I think you have a great website and I wish you and everyone the best of luck....Vigors
If there's a test for determining who belongs and who doesn't it must be petty liberal (I just loved using that word). Sometimes when I do a pre-game talk with the captains at a basketball game I'll say, respect yourself, respect your opponent, respect the game, and respect the referees. Anybody who does that here belongs.

[Greyfox]

If there's a test for determining who belongs and who doesn't it must be petty liberal (I just loved using that word). Sometimes when I do a pre-game talk with the captains at a basketball game I'll say, respect yourself, respect your opponent, respect the game, and respect the referees. Anybody who does that here belongs.

VigorstheGrey did not follow that advice at all.
He ignored the fact that a specific thread was already dealing with religion and was up every day here.
He thought that his views were too important to be buried in that thread.
He has pleaded that he is a new poster.
He is not. He has over 500 posts here.
Certainly, he had to know that his views would draw the wrath of Christians and Jews in this forum.
He had to know that Easter is a particularly important time for Christians to reflect on their relationship with Christ.
His idea of leaving the forum and perhaps coming back under a new icon some day is a good one, because he'll have a hard time shaking the cloak of bigotry that his present pseudonym has earned.
He gets no sympathy from this corner on opting to start this thread.