Here is what the president of the PTHA thinks of bettors

[cj]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeU_EtkW8AAF7GC.jpg:large

Jeff Mullins probably loves this guy.

[EMD4ME]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeU_EtkW8AAF7GC.jpg:large

Jeff Mullins probably loves this guy.

WOW. The phrase "Grounds for immediate termination" isn't enough to state just how quicky he should be fired.

Not surprised :bang: :bang:

I hope decoupling come to them first and his dumbass quote is posted everywhere for all to see when they realize, they now need handle to survive.

[thaskalos]

I love quotes like these. They show us how insult-resistant we horseplayers really are. We appear enraged when we read these remarks...and then we run to buy our Pennsylvania PPs.

At least DeBunda has the guts to say what he thinks out in the open. Other industry leaders feel exactly the same...but reserve their ridiculing comments for their behind-closed-doors meetings.

[cj]

WOW. The phrase "Grounds for immediate termination" isn't enough to state just how quicky he should be fired.

Not surprised :bang: :bang:

I hope decoupling come to them first and his dumbass quote is posted everywhere for all to see when they realize, they now need handle to survive.

Maybe he is right. People here would rather talk about announcers!

[thaskalos]

Maybe he is right. People here would rather talk about announcers!
Of course he is right. Mullins was right too...although it pains me to admit it. The horseplayer gets exactly what he deserves.

[cj]

This actually comes from an article that is five years old. Of course nothing has changed though, so I think it is safe to assume his attitude is the same.

http://triblive.com//x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_749278.html#ixzz1TjqjJbum

[EMD4ME]

Of course he is right. Mullins was right too...although it pains me to admit it. The horseplayer gets exactly what he deserves.

I boycotted CD and don't play it at all, except for a token play in the Derby. I didn't play the Derby last year, as I was tied up but I have stuck to my boycott.

I have no problem boycotting a track. Heck, I reduced handle big time at NYRA in the past 6 weeks as I was upset over the riders and their bullshit.

Maybe I live in a vacuum but if orchestrated right, I think a message can be sent.

Hell, I was going to ask PA for permission to pick a designated race to boycott and to use PA as the forum to organize it.

I wanted to start a poll and ask people if they would participate and see how much they handle at certain tracks. (See the possible impact).

I placed that thought on hold for now.

[RunForTheRoses]

What a Douche! Should be tarred and feathered.

[thaskalos]

I boycotted CD and don't play it at all, except for a token play in the Derby. I didn't play the Derby last year, as I was tied up but I have stuck to my boycott.

I have no problem boycotting a track. Heck, I reduced handle big time at NYRA in the past 6 weeks as I was upset over the riders and their bullshit.

Maybe I live in a vacuum but if orchestrated right, I think a message can be sent.

Hell, I was going to ask PA for permission to pick a designated race to boycott and to use PA as the forum to organize it.

I wanted to start a poll and ask people if they would participate and see how much they handle at certain tracks. (See the possible impact).

I placed that thought on hold for now.

When the state with the most lucrative track-based casino business takes a public stance such as this, then the horseplayer must take notice...and react appropriately. NOT to react proves that what DeBunda is saying is RIGHT. The horseplayer is NOT deterred by the exorbitant takeout...and if the horseplayer isn't deterred by it...then the takeout shouldn't be reduced.

[EMD4ME]

When the state with the most lucrative track-based casino business takes a public stance such as this, then the horseplayer must take notice...and react appropriately. NOT to react proves that what DeBunda is saying is RIGHT. The horseplayer is NOT deterred by the exorbitant takeout...and if the horseplayer isn't deterred by it...then the takeout shouldn't be reduced.

How about I e-mail him and mail him 40000 letters explaining how I don't play PARX because their takeout sucks?

Maybe I'll paste his words in the letter and send it to the local newspapers?

All signed by 40,000 different people?

I figure, I can do 100 a day, give me 400 days :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jahura2]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeU_EtkW8AAF7GC.jpg:large

Jeff Mullins probably loves this guy.

HANAS annual track ratings come out next week. Please research the takeouts of your favorite tracks and support those that support the bettor. I know a lot of people on here are not too fond of Keeneland but they do their best to be a bettors track along with all the glitz and glamor.

[SuperPickle]

This is my ax to grind with horseman. This is why I have no sympathy for almost any of them. They have zero business sense. And zero sense of long term outlook. Their investment and concern about the sport ranges from a week to maybe the end of the current meet.

The sport slowly dies in front of there eyes and these guys only concerned about this condition's books purses. None of them care about the bettors and idea of them sacrificing one penny today to possible make a nickel or dime next week is a non-starter.

It's classic horseman mentality.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I've always advocated for a day off from racing. Pick a day, flood newspapers and other outlets with stories on the boycott day, and nobody bets any track that day. Someone will say it will never work, but if it garners attention and makes enough of an impact to bring the horseplayer's issue to light, it's a start. The problem is that horseplayers don't have quite the equivalent to the HBPA to lead and negotiate, so that makes it harder, but I think dramatic is the way to go. Seriously - is there anyone who couldn't give up one Saturday to make the point?

[thaskalos]

I've always advocated for a day off from racing. Pick a day, flood newspapers and other outlets with stories on the boycott day, and nobody bets any track that day. Someone will say it will never work, but if it garners attention and makes enough of an impact to bring the horseplayer's issue to light, it's a start. The problem is that horseplayers don't have quite the equivalent to the HBPA to lead and negotiate, so that makes it harder, but I think dramatic is the way to go. Seriously - is there anyone who couldn't give up one Saturday to make the point?

I've always advocated abstaining from betting a single track, for a period of a week...while betting normally at the other tracks. That way, the horseplayer still gets to make his point...while still indulging his "addiction". Is it that much of a "sacrifice" to stop betting a single track...just to prove the point that we are a force to be reckoned with? What do you think Mr. Debunda would say if the handle at Parx declined by 90% for a week...while business at the rest of the tracks continued normally?

Alas...we horseplayers can't even do that. :bang:

[EMD4ME]

I've always advocated abstaining from betting a single track, for a period of a week...while betting normally at the other tracks. That way, the horseplayer still gets to make his point...while still indulging his "addiction". Is it that much of a "sacrifice" to stop betting a single track...just to prove the point that we are a force to be reckoned with? What do you think Mr. Debunda would say if the handle at Parx declined by 90% for a week...while business at the rest of the tracks continued normally?

Alas...we horseplayers can't even do that. :bang:


How about we pick 1 day, 1 race at Parx and go from there?

[thaskalos]

How about we pick 1 day, 1 race at Parx and go from there?
I haven't bet Parx in over six months...and I made my last Penn National wager last night.

[cj]

How about we pick 1 day, 1 race at Parx and go from there?

Nobody bets the place anyway. How would they know they were being boycotted?

[EMD4ME]

Nobody bets the place anyway. How would they know they were being boycotted?


I think it's only fair we start with the track that this BLANKETY BLANK represents.

I would send a notification to the PTHA, the Philadelphia Inquirer, DRF, Paulick Report, etc etc etc etc and I would pick a non Mon or Tues (as sick degenerates will bet PRX no matter what on those days).

If their handle on the 1 race goes from $100K to $50K. A point is made, no?

[cj]

I think it's only fair we start with the track that this BLANKETY BLANK represents.

I would send a notification to the PTHA, the Philadelphia Inquirer, DRF, Paulick Report, etc etc etc etc and I would pick a non Mon or Tues (as sick degenerates will bet PRX no matter what on those days).

If their handle on the 1 race goes from $100K to $50K. A point is made, no?

I agree, I was just being a smartass :)

[EMD4ME]

I agree, I was just being a smartass :)

No one (especially my goof on the roof) ever accused me of being sharp so I missed that :D :D

[EMD4ME]

I haven't bet Parx in over six months...and I made my last Penn National wager last night.

OK, the curiosity will kill this cat :)

Why was it your last at Pig Pen?

[Ruffian1]

I think it's only fair we start with the track that this BLANKETY BLANK represents.

I would send a notification to the PTHA, the Philadelphia Inquirer, DRF, Paulick Report, etc etc etc etc and I would pick a non Mon or Tues (as sick degenerates will bet PRX no matter what on those days).

If their handle on the 1 race goes from $100K to $50K. A point is made, no?

From an ex horseman, with no skin in the game, no. No point is made. Here is why.

Everyone involved thinks customers cannot stay away . For a day? OK. For two days ? OK. For a week ? No way !

And they are betting on that.

Having actually advocated for customers in my early years, believe it or not, this was the overwhelming sentiment with management, horsemen, hell, anyone except customers. I stood virtually alone. A position I had to either abandon or be run out of business just as I was getting started.

And boycotting A TRACK? . That's a joke. Boycott ALL tracks. That won't take long, as long as customers are willing to make it a week although you tell them a month.

They are fully vested on customers NEVER being able to not blink before they do.

You have ALL the power. Yet, no leader and worse, no organization that enough customers are willing to rally behind. That is not on HANA.
THAT, is on each individual customer.

The day you do, is day one of fixing all this. But until then, it's a staring contest and your opponent is 100% confident the customers will lose.

After all these years of high takeout in exotics, why shouldn't they be?

Hope that helps.

[RXB]

First, I disagree with the suggestion earlier in this thread that the PTHA guys comments from 2011 were "right." They were not right. Bettors might not change their wagering activities due to takeout rates on an individual race or even over the medium term, but they certainly have and will continue to do so over the long term. They don't have as much money to bet, it's that simple. Not only are high takeouts a problem but the tracks offer too many high-risk wagers with low hit percentages, which is tapping out those bettors and reducing churn.

Look at how handle has plummetted (and remember to factor inflation, too). Just like the market for horse ownership has plummetted as starts per horse has fallen off of a cliff. Ill-conceived strategies, overpriced & underdelivering products will inevitably yield crappy bottom lines.

I cannot confirm that the event I am about to describe actually took place as claimed but I will pass along what I read online.

It was claimed that more recently the horsemen at Parx had a bit of an enlightening thought. This doesn't happen very often with horsemen so the mere possibility was enough to get my attention.

They realized that if they wanted not to have racing dates and/or their percentages of slots revenues reduced any further by the government, it might be a good idea to stop the bleeding in terms of wagering on races in their state. (Reported as down 70% since 2001.) It was claimed that the horsemen went to Parx management and suggested lowering the takeouts, but Parx declined.

Again, I cannot confirm that this was a true story, it was just something that I read online. But it wouldn't totally surprise me if some horsemen have looked at what has happened in Ontario and a couple of other jurisdictions, and what is proposed in Florida, and realized that there is a trend-- that parading their horses around tracks with empty grandstands and small wagering handles but big slot-fuelled purses is a practice that is on its way down and maybe eventually right out.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I've always advocated abstaining from betting a single track, for a period of a week...while betting normally at the other tracks. That way, the horseplayer still gets to make his point...while still indulging his "addiction". Is it that much of a "sacrifice" to stop betting a single track...just to prove the point that we are a force to be reckoned with? What do you think Mr. Debunda would say if the handle at Parx declined by 90% for a week...while business at the rest of the tracks continued normally?

Alas...we horseplayers can't even do that. :bang:
The point is to be noticed and to be taken seriously. It's not just Parx after all. I'd give it up for as many tracks and for as long as that would take.

[Stillriledup]

we are robbing you but as long as you don't realize it everything is good! :D

[The Judge]

I haven't noticed any new tracks opening, I wonder why. There are less races being run on fewer days and fewer bettors are showing up at the track, yet the bettor doesn't know or care about the takeout. Unbelievable of course this has been the attitude all along. We are seen as no more then degenerate gamblers picking numbers and color of horses to place our bets.

Diners paying for the menu. Tracks are closing this must mean something.

[Ruffian1]

we are robbing you but as long as you don't realize it everything is good! :D


They , and let's not call this horsemen without citing management and therefore ownership as well, unless of course it makes you feel better, have known since day one that realize it or not, customers won't stand together and do a damn thing about it except bitch. Between races that is.

I see nothing funny about that.

[RXB]

customers won't stand together and do a damn thing about it except bitch.

Actually, customers (bettors and horse owners) have been doing something for about 30 years-- pulling the plug, steadily and surely. The inflation-adjusted handle stats, foal stats, number of starts and races, etc., confirm their exodus very clearly.

[cj]

Actually, customers (bettors and horse owners) have been doing something for about 30 years-- pulling the plug, steadily and surely. The inflation-adjusted handle stats, foal stats, number of starts and races, etc., confirm their exodus very clearly.


This is spot on. The only reason customers are still treated so poorly most places is because of subsidies from gaming, slots, casinos, lotteries...whatever. Once those go away, and they will, racing will either adapt or perish.

[betovernetcapper]

People tend to gravitate to games with lower take outs. You never see lines at say the wheel of fortune in casinos, because people sort of instructively realize they are bad bets. Large bettors tend to go to the craps table or blackjack or baccarat, games with lower take outs.
Lottery tickets are a good example of a poor bet. You will see them sold on every block in the poorer neighborhoods. You have to really search for them in areas where people are wealthy or well read.
This isn't rocket science. If tracks offered lower take outs & rebates, they would attract more customers. As it is if you want to win you need to do a great deal of work or bet the lucky numbers from a fortune cookie on a cold pic 6 ticket that hits. This is not a situation that is likely to attract new customers. It's very much like a restaurant that has roaches & mice crawling around. It's like a hooker with a visible cold sore. Neither is attractive to new clients.
IMO the industry tends to view it's clients with disdain and yet ironically are surprised when their operations fail. :bang:

A one day boycott is unlikely to have any impact. A one month boycott of the entire industry including the DRF & HDW , say the month of May might get their attention. Having a hundred or more people show up at state hearings that involve agriculture & betting might have an impact.
Passing out leaflets in front of OTBs & maybe even offering people free rides to casinos instead of entering might help. I think these are all good ideas but will come to nothing. We would need the participation of thousands and are likely to have about twenty.

At this point, I don't see any clear road to meaningful change.

[Tom]

Everyone involved thinks customers cannot stay away . For a day? OK. For two days ? OK. For a week ? No way !

And they are betting on that.

When did the boycott of SA and GP start?
I'm still staying away.

But Paex is unique.
Parx sux.
Morons can't evan spell!

I've been there before - it will make a nice Walmart when they lose thier welfare from slots and have to close.

Personally I welcome the day the plug gets pulled and half the GD tracks in the country go under, because they are not good enough to justify opening their doors.

[barahona44]

How about I e-mail him and mail him 40000 letters explaining how I don't play PARX because their takeout sucks?

Maybe I'll paste his words in the letter and send it to the local newspapers?

All signed by 40,000 different people?

I figure, I can do 100 a day, give me 400 days :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't think the Philadelphia papers cover Parx anymore.I was in the Philly airport last summer, had the Inquirer and all they had for Parx was a race results summary and a 'entries today' tucked in with the sports scores; no analysis, predictions or handicapping.

[DeanT]

I dont know what the solution is, but what they've done with their massive slot money at Parx sure hasn't worked.

[barahona44]

I haven't noticed any new tracks opening, I wonder why. There are less races being run on fewer days and fewer bettors are showing up at the track, yet the bettor doesn't know or care about the takeout. Unbelievable of course this has been the attitude all along. We are seen as no more then degenerate gamblers picking numbers and color of horses to place our bets.

Diners paying for the menu. Tracks are closing this must mean something.
Racing is in decline is because people have dozens of options for their gambling dollar that didn't exist outside Nevada and the tracks 40 and more years ago.Starting with the blossoming of lotteries in the 70's, Atlantic City in the 80's, the explosion of casinos in the 90's and last but not least Internet betting and gambling.

Adjusted for inflation, horse racing hit its handle peak in 1964.That was 52 years ago.It's more than just increased takeout.

[Stillriledup]

They , and let's not call this horsemen without citing management and therefore ownership as well, unless of course it makes you feel better, have known since day one that realize it or not, customers won't stand together and do a damn thing about it except bitch. Between races that is.

I see nothing funny about that.

I don't disagree, their treatment of customers is right in line with what you say, however, wouldn't they make more money if they treated customers with some respect? It wouldn't cost them a thing and they would create good will, which would turn into dollars. They don't even have to give one penny back in kickbacks, not one discount on food or drink at the track, nothing except a thank you and some appreciative words. Tom Durkin gets it, unfortunately, not many others do.

ZD-bdbPPCuQ

[Ruffian1]

I don't disagree, their treatment of customers is right in line with what you say, however, wouldn't they make more money if they treated customers with some respect? It wouldn't cost them a thing and they would create good will, which would turn into dollars. They don't even have to give one penny back in kickbacks, not one discount on food or drink at the track, nothing except a thank you and some appreciative words. Tom Durkin gets it, unfortunately, not many others do.

ZD-bdbPPCuQ


Yes, they would make much more money if they did as you suggest. As I said many times, I am on the customers side this time and just about every time. I was a customer before I was ever a backstretch employee or horseman.

I just wish you customers could see your way clear to unite . You have all the power if everyone would band together. Just doesn't seem like it will ever happen though.

And to Tom's point about Parx being a crummy track.

It was a dump on opening day when it was Keystone and remains a dump today. Always hated that place.

I totally agree Tom.

[classhandicapper]

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.
The DRF did a survey on the major issues horseplayers have. Number one among small and non-players was drugs. Number one among larger bettors was take, with drugs far down on the list. Real players know what the hurts their bottom line the most.

[cj]

Maybe this has already be done, but they should do a survey of some kind to determine sensitivity to track takeout and break it out by annual handle.

For example, when NYCOTB was around, I bet if you surveyed those customers, most would probably not understand the track takeout and associated issues. So if you hit them with an extra couple percent, they wouldn't know or care. In terms of number of customers, that's a LOT of people.

If you did the same thing among people that bet 100k a year more more, a lot more of them would understand the issue and be be very track take sensitive.

If you then added up the handle of both groups, you'd get a different impression of the customers than you would by their sheer numbers.

Impressions may be coming from the "typical" horse player in terms of numbers and not in terms of their handle.

The thing is, even if you don't what takeout is or care, you feel the effect.

[Tom]

The OTB crowd knew takeout under it's alias: Crappy Odds.
I would say that affects the small player far more seriously than a higher roller.
If you go to the track on Saturday with $20-$40, the difference between a 9-5 shot and 5-2 shot might be your whole day.

[burnsy]

Maybe he is right. People here would rather talk about announcers!

Not true, If anyone reads my bitching, its always something related to this sort of thing. The product, the insensitive acting's of management and some of the horseman. Frankly, I follow my own horses and view the race myself. I could give a crap about the announcer even though I think NY gets the best ones usually. I can't hear good anyway.

And.....I don't play the second rate tracks like this, never have, never will. Its hard enough trusting the "A" tracks....logic dictates the "cheating" and "Shenanigans'" are way worse at joints like this. I go to Finger Lakes once in a blue moon and bet the simulcast and maybe 2 live races tops.

Its one thing to play these tracks....to each their own. The thing that gets me are the people I call "cheer leaders" and "shills". They are a problem and they are brain washed. They will put you down for complaining and, even worse, jump up and down telling everyone "its great".....even after they read something like this. People like that, are why people like this have jobs. They get away with things like this with people still "sucking up", then people sit there and wonder why the attitude towards us is that we are stupid. Secretly, they think to themselves: "these folks will eat shit and come back begging for more."

[classhandicapper]

The thing is, even if you don't what takeout is or care, you feel the effect.

Absolutely.

To get change, you need more people to complain to get the message across. But unfortunately, even if those "OTB type" players are feeling the effect, they don't seem to know it and apparently neither do many in the industry (or they don't think it matters).

[DeanT]

Absolutely.

To get change, you need more people to complain to get the message across. But unfortunately, even if those "OTB type" players are feeling the effect, they don't seem to know it and apparently neither do many in the industry (or they don't think it matters).

I understand this thought, but in what industry do people complain about something like price of the product as customers and force change that way?

If a restaurant, or a car maker, or anything, really, is not serving a good product at a good price, consumers walk away and they lose market share, or go out of business. So, if they want to grow, or stay in business, they have to improve. There isn't a customer committee who complains, they just stop spending money.

Haven't customers been telling racing this for years with their dollars?

[Stillriledup]

I understand this thought, but in what industry do people complain about something like price of the product as customers and force change that way?

If a restaurant, or a car maker, or anything, really, is not serving a good product at a good price, consumers walk away and they lose market share, or go out of business. So, if they want to grow, or stay in business, they have to improve. There isn't a customer committee who complains, they just stop spending money.

Haven't customers been telling racing this for years with their dollars?

Interesting how the big dropoffs seem to fall right in line with the plastic track mandate in calif. or, maybe it's not interesting, what do I know.

[ultracapper]

Also an economic downturn at that time. Most industries have bounced back from the '06-'08 economic crash. Horse racing betting just dropped and then flat lined, creating a new base line 25% below the pre downturn base line. Another economic crash and handle will drop to 5M a year.

[cj]

I understand this thought, but in what industry do people complain about something like price of the product as customers and force change that way?

If a restaurant, or a car maker, or anything, really, is not serving a good product at a good price, consumers walk away and they lose market share, or go out of business. So, if they want to grow, or stay in business, they have to improve. There isn't a customer committee who complains, they just stop spending money.

Haven't customers been telling racing this for years with their dollars?

They have, of course. The biggest problem is the customers aren't really important right now. Subsidies are important. Slots and casinos are important. Bettors are just a necessary piece to keep the free money flowing.

[comet52]

Hasn't gambling revenue in general declined since 2008? A lot of casinos never recovered to the pre-recession levels, I know the ones I frequent here in the midwest certainly havent, though some newer venues are doing well. There's an issue with saturation, alternate ways to gamble etc. All this is known.

I think the PA guy is just stating the truth, anyone dumb enough to play PA racing is, well, just dumb. Why not gouge them, it seems to be working. A tiny group of knowledgeable horseplayers are not who PA racing wants for customers, isn't that obvious with all the crooked, rank shit that goes on there?

[cutchemist42]

Coming into this thread late, Im just speechless...

[Valuist]

This is my ax to grind with horseman. This is why I have no sympathy for almost any of them. They have zero business sense. And zero sense of long term outlook. Their investment and concern about the sport ranges from a week to maybe the end of the current meet.

The sport slowly dies in front of there eyes and these guys only concerned about this condition's books purses. None of them care about the bettors and idea of them sacrificing one penny today to possible make a nickel or dime next week is a non-starter.

It's classic horseman mentality.

Everything he said. 100% true.

[Ruffian1]

This is my ax to grind with horseman. This is why I have no sympathy for almost any of them. They have zero business sense. And zero sense of long term outlook. Their investment and concern about the sport ranges from a week to maybe the end of the current meet.

The sport slowly dies in front of there eyes and these guys only concerned about this condition's books purses. None of them care about the bettors and idea of them sacrificing one penny today to possible make a nickel or dime next week is a non-starter.

It's classic horseman mentality.

It was early on in my career that I figured all this out. It was then that I knew that I could be successful as a trainer coexisting with these types of people.

There were not more than a handful of actual business men in the entire lot. That said, King Leatherbury was the best of that handful IMO. But it was a small handful. It's no wonder he did as well as he did.

Sad for the game though, that's for sure.

[DeanT]

Hasn't gambling revenue in general declined since 2008? A lot of casinos never recovered to the pre-recession levels, I know the ones I frequent here in the midwest certainly havent, though some newer venues are doing well. There's an issue with saturation, alternate ways to gamble etc. All this is known.

I think the PA guy is just stating the truth, anyone dumb enough to play PA racing is, well, just dumb. Why not gouge them, it seems to be working. A tiny group of knowledgeable horseplayers are not who PA racing wants for customers, isn't that obvious with all the crooked, rank shit that goes on there?

Slots at racetracks still humming in PA Comet!

[EMD4ME]

Slots at racetracks still humming in PA Comet!
Did I read that right? 3 plus BILLION in profit from stupid people throwing money away into a machine programmed to make them lose?

I'm serious. Is it 3 plus Billion in profit (forget expenses for a sec) from the machines? Or is it 3 Billion wagered? It must be profit...... right?

[DeanT]

Did I read that right? 3 plus BILLION in profit from stupid people throwing money away into a machine programmed to make them lose?

I'm serious. Is it 3 plus Billion in profit (forget expenses for a sec) from the machines? Or is it 3 Billion wagered? It must be profit...... right?

Yep.

Handy rule of thumb in slot states: Multiply total revenue by 10% and that's what's generally funneled back to racing.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Slots at racetracks still humming in PA Comet!





No wonder PARX has higher purses

[DeanT]

Op Ed in the TDN about most of what we're talking about here.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/oped-racing-entities-need-to-grow-lemons-not-keep-squeezing-them/#.Vv05KHolszh.twitter

Last season the NCAA decided they were not getting enough money for network coverage and signed a new deal. The Final Four and Championship games would not be on free over the air TV in 2016, they’d now be on TBS, which requires a pay TV package to tune in. This strategy brings in more gross dollars, but the end result is the sport will be watched by fewer fans.

According to some, including Tuttle, this tactic has problems.

“The problem is that such agreements are doing serious damage to fan relationships. And perhaps even worse, they hurt the sport down the road, leaving countless would-be fans in the dust,” he wrote.

In 1957, horse racing enjoyed a near gambling monopoly in the state of California. Do you know what this “monopoly” charged customers in takeout? According to a study called Statistical Report of Operations, commissioned by the California Horse Racing Board, it was 13.75%. In 1977, when lotteries and other forms of competition came online, that rate stood at 16.9%. Today, with poker, and daily fantasy sports and casinos everywhere, the rate is about 21%. Ironically, the same 1989 study warned of squeezing the customer too hard, losing them forever, and recommended lowering takeout to help stem the tide.

Horse racing has been taking more off existing customers, rather than growing them in numbers, long before the NCAA’s ever tried.

[Dave Schwartz]

Good article, Dean!

:ThmbUp:

[Rutgers]

In 1957, horse racing enjoyed a near gambling monopoly in the state of California. Do you know what this “monopoly” charged customers in takeout? According to a study called Statistical Report of Operations, commissioned by the California Horse Racing Board, it was 13.75%. In 1977, when lotteries and other forms of competition came online, that rate stood at 16.9%. Today, with poker, and daily fantasy sports and casinos everywhere, the rate is about 21%. Ironically, the same 1989 study warned of squeezing the customer too hard, losing them forever, and recommended lowering takeout to help stem the tide.




In 1957 with a takeout rate 13.75% 13.75 cents of every dollar wagered went to the”host” track. Today because most handle is wagered off track it's probably closer to 9 or 10 cents (though it varies between tracks), even though 21 cents of every dollar wagered is taken out. The host track bears the majority of the cost of racing including paying the purses as well as maintaining the track and physical plant, but receives less than half the takeout.

Tracks need to lower takeout, increase signal fees and ban rebating. Lowering takeout will increase handle, increasing signal fees will insure more money being returned to the host track, banning rebates will level the playing field and will ensure everybody benefits from the lower takeout.

[DeanT]

In 1957 with a takeout rate 13.75% 13.75 cents of every dollar wagered went to the”host” track. Today because most handle is wagered off track it's probably closer to 9 or 10 cents (though it varies between tracks), even though 21 cents of every dollar wagered is taken out. The host track bears the majority of the cost of racing including paying the purses as well as maintaining the track and physical plant, but receives less than half the takeout.


Not really relevant, though, because tracks import as well as export now.

[Fox]

Did I read that right? 3 plus BILLION in profit from stupid people throwing money away into a machine programmed to make them lose?

I'm serious. Is it 3 plus Billion in profit (forget expenses for a sec) from the machines? Or is it 3 Billion wagered? It must be profit...... right?

For slots, I think gaming revenue means amount put in the slots minus the amount paid out. Basically, it is the profit of the machines not factoring in the cost of the machines, maintenance, supervisors, etc.

It is kind of to sick to think about it that there is enough stupid people to keep mindlessly plugging away on these things month after month, year after year. In PA, the first few days after everyone gets there Social Security check, they flock into the casinos and lose it all.

I wish they would ban slots and force these retirees to blow there savings at the track like the good ole days.

[Rutgers]

Not really relevant, though, because tracks import as well as export now.

That's a valid point because that's how it works in theory. However, in reality, it doesn't always work out that way because some signals generate more handle than others. When a major track and a minor track take each other signals, the minor track profits nicely but the major track still gets less than half the takeout even when you factor in the imported signal from the minor track.

Additionally, fewer people are going to their local track to bet simulcast races (and/or live races), and instead wager thru ADW's & OTB's that are not connected directly to a track, so tracks aren't necessarily making up all that much take from their imported signals. (of course this varies by track/location).

[castaway01]

For slots, I think gaming revenue means amount put in the slots minus the amount paid out. Basically, it is the profit of the machines not factoring in the cost of the machines, maintenance, supervisors, etc.

It is kind of to sick to think about it that there is enough stupid people to keep mindlessly plugging away on these things month after month, year after year. In PA, the first few days after everyone gets there Social Security check, they flock into the casinos and lose it all.

I wish they would ban slots and force these retirees to blow there savings at the track like the good ole days.

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but just confirming that you're right---those are the numbers for how much more the machines took in than paid out. Of course there are expenses, employees to pay, maintainence, etc. It's still an insane amount of revenue though.