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SG4
03-19-2016, 11:41 PM
Why aren't you allowed to do an equipment change in the race following a victory, unless you get special permission from the stewards? I never understood what the point of this rule is.

SuperPickle
03-20-2016, 01:13 AM
Integrity issue. Let's say you have a horse that needs blinkers or is a much different horse with blinkers than without. You could take them off after a win as a way to stiff the horse.

It's just a very meager attempt at protecting the bettors based on an assumption any horse coming off a win would take money.

SG4
03-20-2016, 03:07 PM
Integrity issue

This has to be a joke right? Tracks might as well just drop claiming races from the menu if this is an actual concern.

onefast99
03-21-2016, 10:34 AM
Integrity issue. Let's say you have a horse that needs blinkers or is a much different horse with blinkers than without. You could take them off after a win as a way to stiff the horse.

It's just a very meager attempt at protecting the bettors based on an assumption any horse coming off a win would take money.
One exception to the rule is blinkers can be adjusted from a full to partial, this was the case for night racing at the Meadowlands a few years back. I don't know if any other tracks that have night racing like Delta, Charlestown and Mountaineer to name a few allow this.

Ruffian1
03-21-2016, 10:47 AM
One exception to the rule is blinkers can be adjusted from a full to partial, this was the case for night racing at the Meadowlands a few years back. I don't know if any other tracks that have night racing like Delta, Charlestown and Mountaineer to name a few allow this.

There were no requirements to change a cup size from one race to another when I was there. The paddock judge WILL pick it up in all probability which is their job. They might mention it to you to make sure you did not change it by mistake prior to the horse leaving the paddock but no rules existed on the eastern states as to no change if you won or lost that I ever came across.
Obviously you can't change from race to race to race or you will have some explaining to do with the Stewards. As well you should.

onefast99
03-21-2016, 11:50 AM
There were no requirements to change a cup size from one race to another when I was there. The paddock judge WILL pick it up in all probability which is their job. They might mention it to you to make sure you did not change it by mistake prior to the horse leaving the paddock but no rules existed on the eastern states as to no change if you won or lost that I ever came across.
Obviously you can't change from race to race to race or you will have some explaining to do with the Stewards. As well you should.
They are called cheater cups. Each jurisdiction is different.

Ruffian1
03-21-2016, 12:57 PM
They are called cheater cups. Each jurisdiction is different.

Yep. Full cups to cheater cups, extension blks. or diamonds. It made no difference. No card or report at entry needed in thoroughbreds that I ever had to deal with.

SuperPickle
03-21-2016, 07:00 PM
Here's one of the things I've never quite understood. Thoroughbred racing really only gives you blinker changes. We literally just got first time geldings last year. And all blinkers are considered equal.

By contrast in harness all the top tracks still give you these in depth equipment changes (hobble size, blinker changes [including modifications], shadow rolls, headpoles, and even shoes.) At times some tracks have even announced bike changes.

Also in many harness jurisdictions if you remove or added hobbles you have to qualify to protect the betting public. Meanwhile I don't believe horses added blinkers need to work in them in thoroughbred. Do they?

It's kind of amazing harness has better equipment monitoring than top thoroughbred tracks.

Ruffian1
03-21-2016, 08:02 PM
Here's one of the things I've never quite understood. Thoroughbred racing really only gives you blinker changes. We literally just got first time geldings last year. And all blinkers are considered equal.

By contrast in harness all the top tracks still give you these in depth equipment changes (hobble size, blinker changes [including modifications], shadow rolls, headpoles, and even shoes.) At times some tracks have even announced bike changes.

Also in many harness jurisdictions if you remove or added hobbles you have to qualify to protect the betting public. Meanwhile I don't believe horses added blinkers need to work in them in thoroughbred. Do they?

It's kind of amazing harness has better equipment monitoring than top thoroughbred tracks.

Thoroughbreds need to break from the gate with the bell in them. Not necessarily work more than a 1/16th . Just enough to get out of the gate and clear the chute.
But going from full cups to cheaters or with holes or without needed no card. As previously stated, the paddock judge noticed it but with an explanation or I guess even without an explanation, you could do what you want to. Same with a shadow roll. On , off, no notice at entry. Same with bits and tongue ties. I always wondered why . Too me, it should have been regulated but what the hell did I know. Actually mentioned it once at an HBPA board meeting when I was young and newly elected. Got laughed at by the old guys and girls.

Sounds too me that harness is way more regulated in that regard.

Alwaysonpoint36
03-21-2016, 08:54 PM
Integrity issue. Let's say you have a horse that needs blinkers or is a much different horse with blinkers than without. You could take them off after a win as a way to stiff the horse.

It's just a very meager attempt at protecting the bettors based on an assumption any horse coming off a win would take money.

Great answer :ThmbUp:

onefast99
03-22-2016, 11:43 AM
Great answer :ThmbUp:I just asked this question to both of my trainers and they had the same answer, the rules are very lax but you don't want to be on the radar of the stewards for any reason, especially just after the horse won.

v j stauffer
03-22-2016, 12:15 PM
I just asked this question to both of my trainers and they had the same answer, the rules are very lax but you don't want to be on the radar of the stewards for any reason, especially just after the horse won.

There is nothing lax about the rules. There's no such thing as a stewards radar.

If a horse wins a trainer must seek permission of the stewards to make an equipment change.

He will be asked for a reason.

Usually it's a safety issue. The horse may have won but was ducking and diving all over the place and the jockey thinks better focus will benefit the horse and others in the race.

My personal experience is 99% of the time adding blinkers is the request rather than taking them off. But a request can be made either way.

I've never seen a request denied. It's not for the stewards to tell someone how to train their horse.

Special denotations will be on the overnight and more importantly in the program. The info will be on the TV crawl. The announcer will make mention several times.

Stiff a horse by manipulating this situation? Really? Please!!

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 12:20 PM
There is nothing lax about the rules. There's no such thing as a stewards radar.

If a horse wins a trainer must seek permission of the stewards to make an equipment change.

He will be asked for a reason.

Usually it's a safety issue. The horse may have won but was ducking and diving all over the place and the jockey thinks better focus will benefit the horse and others in the race.

My personal experience is 99% of the time adding blinkers is the request rather than taking them off. But a request can be made either way.

I've never seen a request denied. It's not for the stewards to tell someone how to train their horse.

Special denotations will be on the overnight and more importantly in the program. The info will be on the TV crawl. The announcer will make mention several times.

Stiff a horse by manipulating this situation? Really? Please!!

If it's never denied why do they have to ask?

v j stauffer
03-22-2016, 12:23 PM
If it's never denied why do they have to ask?

Because the racing officials need to make sure the information is disseminated to the public.

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 12:38 PM
Because the racing officials need to make sure the information is disseminated to the public.
Thanks.

Does this differ in any way from a blinker change on a horse NOT coming off a win? Do all changes have to be approved?

v j stauffer
03-22-2016, 01:16 PM
Thanks.

Does this differ in any way from a blinker change on a horse NOT coming off a win? Do all changes have to be approved?

Approved isn't exactly the correct word for all changes.

Blinkers Off is at the discretion of the trainer. Only stipulation is that change must be made at time of entry.

As for blinkers on. The first time a horse is changed to wearing blinkers that horse must break from the gate to the satisfaction of the starter. A full workout is not required. Just a clean break and several uneventful strides. This change must also be noted at time of entry.

If a horse has already run in blinkers, had them taken off, and now is going back to wearing them. A break from the gate is not required.

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 01:19 PM
Approved isn't exactly the correct word for all changes.

Blinkers Off is at the discretion of the trainer. Only stipulation is that change must be made at time of entry.

As for blinkers on. The first time a horse is changed to wearing blinkers that horse must break from the gate to the satisfaction of the starter. A full workout is not required. Just a clean break and several uneventful strides. This change must also be noted at time of entry.

If a horse has already run in blinkers, had them taken off, and now is going back to wearing them. A break from the gate is not required.

Great info thanks I didnt know that about the gate pop/approval. Good stuff.

onefast99
03-22-2016, 03:49 PM
There is nothing lax about the rules. There's no such thing as a stewards radar.

If a horse wins a trainer must seek permission of the stewards to make an equipment change.

He will be asked for a reason.

Usually it's a safety issue. The horse may have won but was ducking and diving all over the place and the jockey thinks better focus will benefit the horse and others in the race.

My personal experience is 99% of the time adding blinkers is the request rather than taking them off. But a request can be made either way.

I've never seen a request denied. It's not for the stewards to tell someone how to train their horse.

Special denotations will be on the overnight and more importantly in the program. The info will be on the TV crawl. The announcer will make mention several times.

Stiff a horse by manipulating this situation? Really? Please!!
I would never say a horse got stiffed, and I am sure you weren't referring to me. On the other hand each and every track has a set of rules in place my comment was based on what my trainers saw and know, one of which has been training for over 40 years. As long as the public knows there was a change and you as an announcer reference that no one will think the integrity of the game was ever compromised. Thanks for the input.

v j stauffer
03-22-2016, 04:24 PM
Integrity issue. Let's say you have a horse that needs blinkers or is a much different horse with blinkers than without. You could take them off after a win as a way to stiff the horse.

It's just a very meager attempt at protecting the bettors based on an assumption any horse coming off a win would take money.

Here's where the word "stiff" was brought up in this thread.

Onefast I wasn't referring to you.

Donttellmeshowme
03-22-2016, 04:27 PM
Great info thanks I didnt know that about the gate pop/approval. Good stuff.




You never worked on the backside have you?

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 04:44 PM
You never worked on the backside have you?

I'm a white collar guy, I don't go on 'back stretches'

Also, what does working on the backside have to do racing knowledge that a person can accumulate? There's nothing on the 'backside' that can't be found out from people who have never been there. Maybe one day I can be as smart as a guy who gets up at 5am and shovels horse poop.

Donttellmeshowme
03-22-2016, 05:46 PM
I'm a white collar guy, I don't go on 'back stretches'

Also, what does working on the backside have to do racing knowledge that a person can accumulate? There's nothing on the 'backside' that can't be found out from people who have never been there. Maybe one day I can be as smart as a guy who gets up at 5am and shovels horse poop.




You can learn quite a bit on the backside. Helps the racing knowledge.

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 05:52 PM
You can learn quite a bit on the backside. Helps the racing knowledge.

What can you learn than you can't learn otherwise?

Donttellmeshowme
03-22-2016, 05:55 PM
What can you learn than you can't learn otherwise?




Come on now you being silly. A whole lot you can learn back there. Like knowing if you can change equipment after a win and what has to be done. How many works do you need for a first time starter. When do horses receive Lasix?

I could go on and on..

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 06:03 PM
Come on now you being silly. A whole lot you can learn back there. Like knowing if you can change equipment after a win and what has to be done. How many works do you need for a first time starter. When do horses receive Lasix?

I could go on and on..

If I called the race office and asked these questions (as a fan with no license or backstretch exoerience) could I get the answers? Or would I be told they're only available if I physically go to the backstretch?

Donttellmeshowme
03-22-2016, 06:16 PM
If I called the race office and asked these questions (as a fan with no license or backstretch exoerience) could I get the answers? Or would I be told they're only available if I physically go to the backstretch?



Depends on who you talk to in the racing office?

an entry clerk? Nope

Steward-yes

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 06:31 PM
Depends on who you talk to in the racing office?

an entry clerk? Nope

Steward-yes

I've talked to plenty of stewards on the phone, many tracks will just put you through to the booth. Also, an entry clerk may have the answers too, I'm sure some of them could answer questions. My point was that most info is available without having to physically be on the backstretch.

SG4
03-22-2016, 10:19 PM
I've talked to plenty of stewards on the phone, many tracks will just put you through to the booth.

Is this for real? Want to start getting us some direct quotes in response to the numerous complaints in the DQ thread?

Stillriledup
03-22-2016, 10:30 PM
Is this for real? Want to start getting us some direct quotes in response to the numerous complaints in the DQ thread?

It's real. If you have a question, ill make a call. ;)

ultracapper
03-23-2016, 12:12 AM
Vic, if I want an explanation for a non-DQ in the 4th Saturday at SA, can I just call Santa Anita and ask them to forward me to the steward's booth?

Stillriledup
03-23-2016, 12:38 AM
Vic, if I want an explanation for a non-DQ in the 4th Saturday at SA, can I just call Santa Anita and ask them to forward me to the steward's booth?

If you call before the races you have a chance to get through I think Scott Chaney has always talked about transparency I would assume he would talk to you if you called and got him when he wasn't busy,but I don't know for sure, you can call and find out.

ultracapper
03-23-2016, 12:43 AM
I would never make that call, but I would definitely give them points knowing some guy from Seattle would have a chance to speak with him during a free moment.

Stillriledup
03-23-2016, 12:52 AM
I would never make that call, but I would definitely give them points knowing some guy from Seattle would have a chance to speak with him during a free moment.

They get points, Chaney has said on tvg that if you see him walking around the track and have a question feel free to say hello and ask.

v j stauffer
03-23-2016, 02:17 AM
Vic, if I want an explanation for a non-DQ in the 4th Saturday at SA, can I just call Santa Anita and ask them to forward me to the steward's booth?

Absolutely. Calling during the races can be tricky as they are usually pretty busy. If they have the time any of the three that are currently there would be happy to speak to you. Scott Chaney, Kim Sawyer and Grant Baker are all excellent stewards and very fine people as well.

You'll probably have a better chance at getting them if you call in the morning. All three are there by 9:00am on a race day. On non racing entry days there will always be one steward in the office in case something comes up during entries or the draw.

We used to call it being " in the barrel ". Why I have no idea.

I never minded going in on a dark day though because they get a full days pay. Nice.