DRF corporate greed and BRIS

[grandstander21]

I have two things to say here...

First, I am very disappointed in DRF. They have become really greedy with their customers for the last time. After the running of the 2015 Kentucky Derby, DRF made a big mistake and decided to make every news article on their website a DRF Plus article. That meant if we wanted news from them, you had to subscribe to DRF Plus which is about $25 a month. Yes, they have gone so low as to charge their customers for news reports. Eventually, DRF realized their blunder and went back to the way they were, but now there's a new problem.

As someone mentioned before on here, DRF issued a price hike in their PPs. The price of Classic PPs went from $2.95 to $3.50. I also heard the price of the print edition has gone up too. I recently e-mailed DRF customer service to give my feedback on this and I got no response. Well, congratulations Daily Racing Form. You have officially lost a customer.

I'm switching to Brisnet because their PPs are much cheaper, as low as $1 to be exact. IMO, Brisnet is pretty nice. Their PPs are well organized. So, I know this has been asked before but do you agree that DRF has gone down the drain in terms of customer satisfaction?

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Honestly, the only thing I use DRF for nowadays are Entries, Results, Stakes Racing schedule, and their Kentucky Derby watchlist.

Other than that, their site, and publication, has become completely useless to me.

[davew]

Is it really greed when they are probably losing half of their business every 5 years?

[Stillriledup]

Is it really greed when they are probably losing half of their business every 5 years?

If its not greed, what is it?

[thaskalos]

No trick is too underhanded for the DRF. They'll raise the price on their printed edition...while, at the same time, committing the cardinal sin of totally omitting the PPs of certain tracks from their printed copies. In the Chicago-area, there have been times when the PPs of Charlestown and Penn National were no-where to be found in their printed edition. At other times...they'll put the PPs of an AM track into the PM edition...in order to force the customer to buy BOTH copies of the DRF. Raise the price if you must...but don't let the service that you provide go to shit at the same time.

The rumor is that the DRF is trying to force the customers of its printed edition to become online customers instead. IMO...the fastest way for a business to fall on hard times is to start dictating to their customers what the customers should do. You find out what your customer wants...and you SELL it to him. You don't try to force the customer to buy what YOU prefer to sell to him.

[Tara73]

The reason people still stay with DRF and pay more is simply because of the Beyer speed figures. If Bris could dump the computer generated figures and replace it with credible figures, while maintaining price, they would get a considerable amount of DRF customers.

[EMD4ME]

The reason people still stay with DRF and pay more is simply because of the Beyer speed figures. If Bris could dump the computer generated figures and replace it with credible figures, while maintaining price, they would get a considerable amount of DRF customers.

I'll only speak for AQU but when I look around. I see maybe 2% of people with a PC/Laptop/Tablet. 80% with a simulcast program (you know the one that has a 130 pace figure for a horse with a 26 opening Quarter :lol: ) and maybe 18% using a DRF at the BIG A.

Unfortunately, those people probably don't even know other products exist.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

The reason people still stay with DRF and pay more is simply because of the Beyer speed figures. If Bris could dump the computer generated figures and replace it with credible figures, while maintaining price, they would get a considerable amount of DRF customers.

I find it comforting to know that people still like or rely upon Beyer Speed Figures.

[thaskalos]

The reason people still stay with DRF and pay more is simply because of the Beyer speed figures. If Bris could dump the computer generated figures and replace it with credible figures, while maintaining price, they would get a considerable amount of DRF customers.

Well...I know for a fact that this does not apply to me. I buy the DRF every day, and hardly even GLANCE at the Beyer figures. To me...the thought of handicapping off a computer screen is utterly repulsive.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I do not use the DRF, however, I still miss the 'old days' with the full tabloid that you folded neatly in the corners and spread out on the table ( and the world was right) LOL. Get out your markers and do the work...it all made a lot of sense.

[betovernetcapper]

I'll say up front that I get most of my data from HDW. I will use Formulator from time to time.
In the old days, getting a copy of the next days DRF, meant showing up at a newsstand at 8pm in order to get one of the 6 - 8 copies dropped off. This was a really pain. Now like many other publications they're finding that it's not profitable to sell a print edition. Magazines that are making money on their print editions like GQ or Guns & Ammo or Vogue have an ad on every other page. The ad revenue in DRF is negligible at best.
If you buy a online card & bet $25 on DRF Bets, your reimbursed the cost of the card.
Everyday they offer a free online version of Formulator on the Race of the Day section.
Every few weeks they offer a free Webinar and have an extensive number of YouTube films showing how to use this or that feature.
While a lot of folks beat up on Beyer figs, on figs that just express the final time of the horse they are pretty good. There are other figs that incorporate pace, weight and ground lost. That's fine, but that's not what the Beyer figs are designed to do.
I like the Moss pace figs. I've never trusted the raw pace times.
They seem to be constantly working on improvement and offering some new feature.

OK maybe not perfect, but a hell of a lot better then it was 30 years ago.
In short, this is America, if you don't like it use something else. :bang:

[thaskalos]

I'll say up front that I get most of my data from HDW. I will use Formulator from time to time.
In the old days, getting a copy of the next days DRF, meant showing up at a newsstand at 8pm in order to get one of the 6 - 8 copies dropped off. This was a really pain. Now like many other publications they're finding that it's not profitable to sell a print edition. Magazines that are making money on their print editions like GQ or Guns & Ammo or Vogue have an ad on every other page. The ad revenue in DRF is negligible at best.
If you buy a online card & bet $25 on DRF Bets, your reimbursed the cost of the card.
Everyday they offer a free online version of Formulator on the Race of the Day section.
Every few weeks they offer a free Webinar and have an extensive number of YouTube films showing how to use this or that feature.
While a lot of folks beat up on Beyer figs, on figs that just express the final time of the horse they are pretty good. There are other figs that incorporate pace, weight and ground lost. That's fine, but that's not what the Beyer figs are designed to do.
I like the Moss pace figs. I've never trusted the raw pace times.
They seem to be constantly working on improvement and offering some new feature.

OK maybe not perfect, but a hell of a lot better then it was 30 years ago.
In short, this is America, if you don't like it use something else. :bang:

You are just making things up...in order to prove your point. The truth is that Steve Crist has repeatedly stated that the DRF printed edition remains a major profit source for the company.

[AndyC]

If its not greed, what is it?

Raising prices when your customers have choices is hardly greed. If the DRF was/is like every other business their expenses are going up not down. They can either sell their product at a loss or hope that the price increase doesn't scare away too many customers.

[Tom]

The Saturday print edition is print edition is a better buy than the digital option.
You get 6-7 tracks while the on line tracks are $2.95 each.

[OptionalClaimer]

The Saturday DRF has gone up to $10 that's absurd, I'm done with them forever

[Tom]

For $10, you would think they could put the races in order. :rolleyes:

[barahona44]

I'll say up front that I get most of my data from HDW. I will use Formulator from time to time.
In the old days, getting a copy of the next days DRF, meant showing up at a newsstand at 8pm in order to get one of the 6 - 8 copies dropped off. This was a really pain. Now like many other publications they're finding that it's not profitable to sell a print edition. Magazines that are making money on their print editions like GQ or Guns & Ammo or Vogue have an ad on every other page. The ad revenue in DRF is negligible at best.
If you buy a online card & bet $25 on DRF Bets, your reimbursed the cost of the card.
Everyday they offer a free online version of Formulator on the Race of the Day section.
Every few weeks they offer a free Webinar and have an extensive number of YouTube films showing how to use this or that feature.
While a lot of folks beat up on Beyer figs, on figs that just express the final time of the horse they are pretty good. There are other figs that incorporate pace, weight and ground lost. That's fine, but that's not what the Beyer figs are designed to do.
I like the Moss pace figs. I've never trusted the raw pace times.
They seem to be constantly working on improvement and offering some new feature.

OK maybe not perfect, but a hell of a lot better then it was 30 years ago.
In short, this is America, if you don't like it use something else. :bang:
You have an interesting collection of magazine subscriptions. :)

[Rutgers]

You are just making things up...in order to prove your point. The truth is that Steve Crist has repeatedly stated that the DRF printed edition remains a major profit source for the company.

Really?…Repeatedly?....Recently?….You’re just making that up.

[thaskalos]

Really?…Repeatedly?....Recently?….You’re just making that up.
Steve Crist said it on two separate occasions last year...when he was asked if the printed edition of the DRF was on the verge of being phased out due to the unprofitability factor.

I'm not 100% sure...but I dare say that twice means "repeatedly".

[therussmeister]

I'll only speak for AQU but when I look around. I see maybe 2% of people with a PC/Laptop/Tablet. 80% with a simulcast program (you know the one that has a 130 pace figure for a horse with a 26 opening Quarter :lol: ) and maybe 18% using a DRF at the BIG A.

Unfortunately, those people probably don't even know other products exist.
I only speak for Cby, but when I look around I see about 3% with a laptop/tablet, 90% with DRF and 9% with 'other'. (2% use computer + something else)

[biggestal99]

I get the digital form to supplement the formulator, its great and cheap.

Allan

[castaway01]

Steve Crist said it on two separate occasions last year...when he was asked if the printed edition of the DRF was on the verge of being phased out due to the unprofitability factor.

I'm not 100% sure...but I dare say that twice means "repeatedly".

I'd love for you to post links to where he said that.

[burnsy]

You are just making things up...in order to prove your point. The truth is that Steve Crist has repeatedly stated that the DRF printed edition remains a major profit source for the company.

Yeah, and that's why its 10 bucks. They have to keep raising the price to make money. Every printed publication in the country is going through this. They all want you to pay something for online articles or the online version is a total pain in the ass because of umpteen ads. So many that the script actually slows your computer down. That's the dilemma that newsprint companies are facing everywhere. That and the fact that horse racing only gets a real sniff mostly on Saturday and the big days. I mean how many do they expect to sell most Mondays and Tuesdays? Let alone Wednesday through Friday. Its easy to say your making money on a 5 dollar newspaper that costs 10 bucks.

And others are saying its for the Beyer speed figures. That's peoples "secret" betting strategy? Thanks, that makes me feel warm all over, especially on the cheek where my wallet is planted.

Any type of publication like this that says they are not struggling, not fighting to keep up or stay aloat...is lying to your face. They are trying to stay alive.....that's why a 5 dollar paper costs 10 bucks and they make money but they also get closer and closer to pricing themselves out of existence. Look how many horse players bitch, just on this forum........all the time. They may be making a buck or two now, but like I said, if they claim they are not feeling the heat.....they are lying....flat out. Two years from now....Yeah we're making money....the thing only costs 20 bucks and you can have the privilege of reading our articles online for 3 bucks a piece......Its a damn shame because my friends and I used to enjoy reading the "news" part of the Racing Form. Some days that was the best part.

Of course, people can keep listening to the blow hards that jump up and down and tell people how great the game is doing. I think the local OTB channel (Capital OTB) here has about 2 or 3 of them left on staff.......... :lol: . And they lost half their signals, its booming I tell ya!..... :bang:

[Spiderman]

DRF is foundering. I gave up with them when I went to purchase pps online and each and every time, it was required to re-type all of my information, including 16-digit credit card #. At about the same time, I discovered and learned to utilize the information in Brisnet. Have not looked-back since 1999.

DRF has failed to recognize their unique status in publishing, being both a consumer and a trade publication. It could develop greater recognition in the advertising community with a make-over. My consultancy is open to discuss the path to achieve greater advertising revenue goals.

[betovernetcapper]

You have an interesting collection of magazine subscriptions. :)

My doctor has an interesting choice of magazine subscriptions. :)

[Cratos]

I subscribe to DRF annual unlimited package and in conjunction I used both Trakus and Equibase because there is not one comprehensive data supplier for my use.

Do I think the info is too cost?

That is difficult to say because the collection and distribution systems of horserace data appear to be antiquated and if so, cost will be high.

[NorCalGreg]

Damn.....I had an entire THESIS STATEMENT almost ready to hit "submit"--about Beyer, Bris, EQ speed figures--since a couple posters made comments like "they're comforted people still use Beyer SR"...and someone else stated they weren't happy with Bris' computer-generated figs.

Anyway...I clicked the wrong button, and nuked my incredibly interesting post.

The gist of it was: they're isn't enough difference in ANY ---to make one cent difference in your personal ROI, unless you're maybe an upper-stratosphere world class handicapper. I'm certainly not one. Enhanced SR's and Pace figs are just that--ENHANCED.
Meaning they take more into account--than just final time--or fractional time.
If you want to pay extra--you can get damn near anything "enhanced".

"The Table below shows the approximate comparative numerical values for Performance Figures (PF), Beyer Speed Figures (BSF), Timeform Ratings (TR), Racing Post Ratings (RPR), BRIS Ratings (BRIS) and Equibase Speed Figures (EB) where the numbers apply to races for older males in open company.
The comparisons are based on newly-completed studies in 2014. The BSF/TR comparison is based on a previously published approximation in which a TR is about 15 points higher than the corresponding BSF.
By way of illustration, a typical Grade 1 winner will have a PF of -77. Using the Table, this figure is equivalent to a BSF of about 105, a TR of about 120, a RPR of about 117, a BRIS Rating of about 107 and an EB of about 116. The correlation coefficients which measure the closeness of the fit between PFs and the other figures are displayed as well. The nearer a correlation coefficient is to 1.00, the closer the fit between the two sets of figures."

This basically measures the REAL difference in ratings, using the correlation of Beyer/Timeform as a "baseline". Got news for you DRF vs EB vs Bris bashers---ain't no difference.
The only "bashing" anyone can discern from this, is don't use those RACING REPORT RATINGS (whatever they are?) --they WILL kill your ROI

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Damn.....I had an entire THESIS STATEMENT almost ready to hit "submit"--about Beyer, Bris, EQ speed figures--since a couple posters made comments like "they're comforted people still use Beyer SR"...and someone else stated they weren't happy with Bris' computer-generated figs.

Anyway...I clicked the wrong button, and nuked my incredibly interesting post.

The gist of it was: they're isn't enough difference in ANY ---to make one cent difference in your personal ROI, unless you're maybe an upper-stratosphere world class handicapper. I'm certainly not one. Enhanced SR's and Pace figs are just that--ENHANCED.
Meaning they take more into account--than just final time--or fractional time.
If you want to pay extra--you can get damn near anything "enhanced".

"The Table below shows the approximate comparative numerical values for Performance Figures (PF), Beyer Speed Figures (BSF), Timeform Ratings (TR), Racing Post Ratings (RPR), BRIS Ratings (BRIS) and Equibase Speed Figures (EB) where the numbers apply to races for older males in open company.
The comparisons are based on newly-completed studies in 2014. The BSF/TR comparison is based on a previously published approximation in which a TR is about 15 points higher than the corresponding BSF.
By way of illustration, a typical Grade 1 winner will have a PF of -77. Using the Table, this figure is equivalent to a BSF of about 105, a TR of about 120, a RPR of about 117, a BRIS Rating of about 107 and an EB of about 116. The correlation coefficients which measure the closeness of the fit between PFs and the other figures are displayed as well. The nearer a correlation coefficient is to 1.00, the closer the fit between the two sets of figures."

This basically measures the REAL difference in ratings, using the correlation of Beyer/Timeform as a "baseline". Got news for you DRF vs EB vs Bris bashers---ain't no difference.
The only "bashing" anyone can discern from this, is don't use those RACING REPORT RATINGS (whatever they are?) --they WILL kill your ROI

Nice.

How does the "I don't put much into any speed ratings" statement sound? That is where I stand.

Like yourself, I'm a big believer in BRIS Pace Ratings, or at least their pace factors.

I feel naked without them.

However, I can, and will, go above and beyond any rating system as I see fit. The "other" factors are at least 60% of my "game".

[deelo]

I did like using bris pace ratings for a while, but until they can come out with anything comparable to Formulator, I'm on the DRF annual unlimited :ThmbUp:

[NorCalGreg]

Nice.

How does the "I don't put much into any speed ratings" statement sound? That is where I stand.

Like yourself, I'm a big believer in BRIS Pace Ratings, or at least their pace factors.

I feel naked without them.

However, I can, and will, go above and beyond any rating system as I see fit. The "other" factors are at least 60% of my "game".

I'm in lock-step with you on everything you just said, LD....even to the point of giving extra credit--or discounting speed and pace figures---based on a horse's running position/lengths behind.. at a given point in a race.

Why should a horse just be "rewarded" with an outstanding figure--if he did nothing to participate in earning that figure?

This "relational pace" concept is nothing new... just an example of common sense when using ANY figures.

[Rutgers]

Steve Crist said it on two separate occasions last year...when he was asked if the printed edition of the DRF was on the verge of being phased out due to the unprofitability factor.

I'm not 100% sure...but I dare say that twice means "repeatedly".


Really?…To whom?…On what occasion?…Dare I say you’re making that up?

[thaskalos]

Really?…To whom?…On what occasion?…Dare I say you’re making that up?

To whom...and on what occasion?

Aren't you the guy who alerted the NYRA of that takeout problem that they were engaged in a few years ago? Didn't Steve Crist himself receive emails from you about that issue? If you are really this curious about the context of Crist's comment regarding the profitability of the printed edition of the DRF...then, why don't you send Crist another email, and ask him?

I would ask him myself...but I have had no prior interactions with him, and he probably won't reply to my email.

[Tom]

Well played, Gus.

[Rutgers]

...then, why don't you send Crist another email, and ask him?


Because I know he didn't comment on the profitability of the print edition. Besides his group sold the DRF 12 years ago (and it has been resold since then) and he is no longer involved in running it, so I question how qualified he would be (or appropriate it is for him) to discuss the financial aspects of the print edition.

[thaskalos]

Because I know he didn't comment on the profitability of the print edition. Besides his group sold the DRF 12 years ago (and it has been resold since then) and he is no longer involved in running it, so I question how qualified he would be (or appropriate it is for him) to discuss the financial aspects of the print edition.
Well...you are wrong. Inappropriate or not, Crist commented on the profitability of the printed edition...and I read what he said. I remember things...even though I don't care enough to file them away for future use.

See how I remembered YOU...even though you hardly ever post here?

[PaceAdvantage]

Who could forget him? That was a major moment around here.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Steve Crist said it on two separate occasions last year...when he was asked if the printed edition of the DRF was on the verge of being phased out due to the unprofitability factor.

I'm not 100% sure...but I dare say that twice means "repeatedly".

I subscribe to Investors Business Daily. I just renewed my subscription about 45 days ago. I believe I paid about $300 for the next year (I would need to confirm the exact number, but that's ballpark correct). I subscribed to the PRINT version, and they throw in the online version for free. Like you, I find it repulsive to read a newspaper/racing form off a computer screen. I received an email notice last week that they will stop publishing the printed version except on Mondays, but as a loyal customer I will receive an extra month for "free." I feel conned, as they most likely knew about the printed version phase out when I agreed to re-subscribe. I haven't called them yet to convey my displeasure.

If you don't use the Beyers in the DRF, why don't you just buy equibase PPs? I buy the DRF for Beyers.

[River11]

I buy the DRF for Beyers.


Me too, and the PP's have to be printed out. Knowing how to use Beyers, recognizing cycles, I concider them good figures.