Handicapping disagreements.

[thaskalos]

The inspiration for this thread was the effect that Nitro's posts caused in the Video Replay thread here. It reminded me of a phone conversation I engaged in recently...with one of the most prominent, most respected members of this board. This gentleman sent me a PM, asking me if everything was alright in my private life...because it appeared to him that I am a lot JUMPIER on this board now, than I had been in the past. It was a complicated issue to address by PM, so we agreed to talk on the phone...which is something that we had done in the past.

When he called me...he proceeded to tell me things that shocked the daylights out of me. After reminding me that we had many very sharp horseplayers on this board...he accused me of launching fierce written ATTACKS on these "intelligent horseplayers...seeking to "run over them", while ridiculing their opinions. And the sharper these other posters were, the more I was inclined to "attack" them...he told me. I had become a "DISRUPTIVE FORCE" on this board...he opined. (No, this wasn't one of the moderators here)

Naturally, I asked who these posters were that I was attacking...but he told me that he couldn't reveal their names, for privacy's sake. And when I asked for particular threads where he felt I was "running over" people while ridiculing their opinions...he told me that these threads weren't so hard to find. All I had to do was just look into ANY popular thread here...and I was sure to find Thaskalos just jumping in, and being a major "disrupting force".

Now...please don't misunderstand me. The main point of my thread here isn't this phone conversation that I had with this distinguished member of ours. He has the right to hold whatever opinion about me that he wishes...and I have the right to totally ignore his opinion of me -- which is exactly what I intend to do. The point of my thread here is to ask a simple question:

What kind of handicapping discussions do we want to hold on this board?

Have we become so "soft"...that we perceive every disagreement as a "personal attack" here? Is it "crashing down", or "running over" people...when someone here voices a dissenting opinion than the one that we ourselves have embraced? I happen to believe that the best horse racing debates stem from disagreements...but I could easily be mistaken about this. I look back on my posting history here...and I remember participating in stimulating conversations with many of the posters here. And the discussions were even livelier, when we started of DISAGREEING.

When a poster voices his disagreements in a civil tone, then he can never be accused of "running over people"...nor can it be said that he is being a "disruptive force', IMO. This board is centered around the exchange of ideas...and, as opinionated as we horseplayers are...certain disagreements are sure to arise. As long as things remain civil...disagreeing is fine, as far as I am concerned. But, as I said before...I could easily be wrong.

So...my concluding question becomes this:

Can we take a little criticism around here, or are our handicapping opinions "sacred"? When someone disagrees with our way of doing things, do we have the patience to "talk things out"...or do we regard this as a PERSONAL ATTACK?

Please forgive me for talking as if I am the "cop" of this board. I spend a lot of time here, and I like it. I say this on the off-chance that this gentleman who contacted me is right...and there is indeed something wrong with the type of behavior that I've been exhibiting here lately. I have enough enemies...and I don't wish them to increase in number.

[Stillriledup]

Many posters don't know how to 'respectfully disagree'. The civil and healthy debate goes down the tubes when one person in the thread decides to sling mud and launch a personal attack rather than just agree to disagree.

As far as the Nitro post goes, if your heart and handicapping soul depends on replays and it's all you do and someone who doesn't do any video work starts talking down about tape watching, some can get a little sensitive about that and may even view it as a personal shot.

[EMD4ME]

Thaskalos. You are never out of line, IMHO. Let's start there. I, personally, look forward to all of your posts. Many times you are the mediator in heated "debates". You're posts spark true conversation, debate and exchange of ideas. I, for one, love the debates on here as LONG as they don't become mud sling peeing contests AND as long as people don't start viciously attacking.

[azeri98]

I really don't think anyone should be insulted unless they are attacked personally, if the methods are questioned that's fair, everybody has an opinion of what works for them.

[biggestal99]

My horseplaying Friend and Dave have had numerous disagreements over the years about handicapping a race. Its gotten heated at times. Value, workouts, betting action (as we were heading to the Southwell one day, he began to sing the praises of a horse all the way there, saw the horse in question was "drifting like a barge" at the books and bet another horse LOL.
Praised horse jogs at 9-2. and he and I had it out)

still friends after all these years......

I guess it depends, among friends is one thing, on an anonymous board.

Allan

[illinoisbred]

Thaskalos...I can't recall anything you've written regarding handicapping that I'd classify as a "personal attack". You usually ask the pertinent questions,express the doubts that I'm certain many of us share on some of the topics discussed here. I wouldn't change your demeanor/approach one bit.

[Johnny V]

What kind of handicapping discussions do we want to hold on this board?




So...my concluding question becomes this:

Can we take a little criticism around here, or are our handicapping opinions "sacred"? When someone disagrees with our way of doing things, do we have the patience to "talk things out"...or do we regard this as a PERSONAL ATTACK?

I think the handicapping discussions on this board are excellent for the most part. Yes, sometimes folks get a little sensitive when their opinions are challenged but when you put something out there then there will be very little discussion or fleshing out of the the facts if everyone agrees. In all the years going to the track, otb's etc. I have for the most part been unable to engage anyone in intelligent, knowledgeable conversation about racing. Weirdos, nuts, racetrack bums are the vocal ones but have nothing to offer except maybe humor. Good conversations about racing were rare. Discovering this site made me realize that there were knowledgeable handicappers out there that loved this game as much as I do. That is why I like this place so much.
There are some very knowledgeable people here and I have learned some things here and have always enjoyed following the handicapping discussions for the most part. The give and take is what drives the discussion as long as it is civil and without personal attacks that always seem to divert the topic it works pretty well.

[Inner Dirt]

Maybe it is what I call "old man syndrome." Until I joined here just a couple years ago all handicapping discussions I had were always in person. The only ones that ever got even close to having raised voices is the occasional 4 man syndicate playing a big pick six ticket and that was with friends I had known a long time. If I was at the OTB or Track swapping ideas with an outsider even ones I saw frequently and I determined them too far out there I no longer talked to them other than the daily greeting. It is strange that the handicapping discussions get so heated in here, worse than the political ones.

As for "old man syndrome" (I am 55 by the way) I noticed in the past some older friends and relatives (all male) having a much shorter fuse as they got into their 60's and up. What was strange is they would get angry to the point you thought they were going to kill someone or something and 5 minutes later were back to normal like nothing happened. These are people who didn't do this 5 or 10 years earlier. Maybe that is what is going on in here.

[burnsy]

I really don't think anyone should be insulted unless they are attacked personally, if the methods are questioned that's fair, everybody has an opinion of what works for them.




That's my point I think everyone has their own "way". I get frustrated when people think they have the only way to gamble......most of the time they are not that good anyway. There's people on here that actually try to tell people that certain races should not be bet. That's a real laugher. I don't like maidens, but I could care less that others do.

I'll admit I make fun of the people that treat the track like geeks from The Big Bang Theory because if I wanted to do that......I'd be working a real job. But I guess that's fun to some and, more importantly, they probably do well with it. Like I said, I had to deal with that garbage at work, my time gambling is considered pleasure time. So I have to have fun doing it. Somehow people take that as you don't want to win.

The other "poster" that I kind of laugh at are the "experts" that talk about the most obvious horses, over and over again. Yeah, I know this 3-5 shot is good......that's why its always 3-5 or some ridiculous price. The so called "expert" still does not understand pari-mutuels. Its the horses that everyone else doesn't see that make the difference. Not the 4-5 shots of the world. Once you've been doing this for a while, that's actually the first thing you have to learn and some never do learn that. When you play against this type horse the "internet clan" calls you a hater. Even though you get paid handsomely doing this. They just never get this game.

I wouldn't worry about it Thask, you are knowledgeable and more diplomatic than most, including myself. I can be an asshole because if I think the person is full of it, I laugh out loud and people hate that. I've actually posted many picks here so people know I'm not full of it. I gave out 2/3 of my plays during the Spa meet when I wrote that blog and some were bombs away. Yeah, I'm capable of winning. Same with a season of football when they had that contest. They probably won't do that again :) . Some people tell you how great they are and then their entire "posting" is, such and such is 4-5 and can't lose. Gee, thanks a lot. With jack asses like me and some of the other "wise asses" on here that practically "duke it out" with each other, I would never go as far as some of them do. Its an internet chat for crying out loud. You have nothing to worry about. Read some of the crap that gets "locked".

Inner Dirt is right too.........most of us have "old man syndrome".

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'd be worried for the stability of someone that would actually call you at home to discuss his perception of your internet horse racing forum posting tendencies.

[burnsy]

I'd be worried for the stability of someone that would actually call you at home to discuss his perception of your internet horse racing forum posting tendencies.

I know. I kind of thought the same thing. Especially with some of the other "fiascos" that go on here. Thask is mild compared to most of us. My intentions at times are to "disrupt", just so people stop and think. IMO the "complacency" is a main reason the US game suffers. So I have a whole theme of disruption on that. Just to save racing or make it better. But the attacks and food fights get to be too much at times.

[raybo]

I agree with the majority in this thread. Disagreements and arguments are bound to happen in a public forum like PA, especially regarding a subject such as horse racing, where there are as many ways to win money as there are ways to lose it. The demographic of horse racing only accentuates the likelihood of disagreements, because a majority of horse players have been at it for decades, have seen everything under the sun, know when something is hogwash and makes no sense at all, etc.. Most of the frequent posters here are both, older in years and experience, and have been posting here for years, seen all the same questions and possible solutions, over and over, through those many years. Unfortunately, there are newer members here who don't take the time to search past posters and threads, and think they can pull the wool over everyone's eyes, just like they do on other topics in other places. It takes them a while to realize that there are people here who have seen and done it all and can spot their BS a mile off.

Anyway, I'll not going to get off further on a tangent and simply say that, disagreements are part of the game, here and in the real world of racing/wagering, as are arguments, some that even get a bit heated by emotion and that "stuck in the 60's" type of mentality. But, the value of disagreements and arguments ceases to be of value, IMO, when mutual respect is tossed aside in favor of winning the dispute, at all costs.

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering if this "most prominent" member of the board who thaskalos is talking about happens to be me, I can assure everyone (and thaskalos can back me on this) that it was NOT me... :lol:

I guess the tip off that it wasn't me was that thaskalos also called this person "most respected" :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Elliott Sidewater]

For the past 100+ years, racing has defied the efforts of man and machine to identify a single factor that is more important than all others in every single race that is run. Replays are not worthless, it is possible to see things that others have missed and obtain betting value on occasion, but it's a static view of a horse's dynamic form. They're far from everything one needs to consider, in my opinion. The importance of a trip in a past race cannot be stated in absolute terms, only in relative terms compared to other factors, such as pace, speed, form, class. In some races the replays could be supremely important, in others, almost worthless. Regardless, I'm sure they're viable as used by the people who espouse it here.

Bringing the static and the dynamic factors together in handicapping races that haven't been run is a high level challenge, no matter how long one has been doing it, whether using a pencil and paper or a computer. I think we get into trouble when we try to argue our handicapping points in absolute terms, using "always" and "never". Whatever the hot new monotheistic idea du jour is, all it would take is a few cc's of truth serum for the person posting it to admit that there's really a lot more to it than that.

If you are the person who has never had a losing streak, never questioned why you were doing something that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't, never explored alternate approaches, and win consistently year in and year out, well great. You may need advice on what to do about negative interest rates, but you don't need this message board. For the rest of us, debate can bring things out that we may not have thought of, help settle long held questions in one's mind, and yes, actually TEACH us things we may not have realized we needed to learn.

With the rare exception of one recent Republican Presidential debate, which boldly went where man usually doesn't go :lol:, I love most debates, including those conducted in this forum. If you can't express and support your point of view, or respectfully disagree with someone else's point of view with supporting reasons, there wouldn't be much reason to log in, except possibly for PA's occasional handicapping of big races, which has been scary good.

[JimG]

Handicapping disagreements are fine. In fact, I learn much at times from people that handicap and attack the races differently from myself. I've been here a long time and would rank Thaskalos in the top 30 posters of all time. I have enjoyed his postings tremendously and hope to in the future.

I do not think personal attacks on each other in the horse racing side of this board should be tolerated at all. However, I am not a moderator, and for the most part I think they do a terrific job.

I cannot help but think some of the personal attacks are carried over from the off-topic board, which I read on occasion but rarely participate.

That's my two cents, which may be overvalued. LOL

Jim

[Mandrake]

Mr. T kind of makes me laugh when he states "one of the most prominent and respected". Everyone should be respected, and how one enters the world of prominence on a horse racing forum is on some sort of scale I am not familiar with. With that being said, yes it is ok to reread posts before sending, however if you have to worry about a spontaneous reply hurting someone's feelings all the time, then all the fun gets tossed out the window.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I'm new here and already a few of my rash comments have caused some ( I know at least one) to question my sincerity....I make mistakes....I am human...I reflect on my past behavior...and what I wrote in the past....disturb me too!

But I make changes...I learn from my mistakes. This board is a place where I hope to grow and learn as an individual...and what I am realizing is the importance of "perspective" in the sense of "the ability to understand what is important and what isn't"....This, I believe is the Holy Grail, not only of handicapping, but also of Life in general.

In my short time here, I hope that I have not offended you, with my words, beyond the repair thereof...

I have realized that these threads are themselves highly contextualized events and for that reason I am embarking on the mission to read past threads now before I proceed further with posting....I do not desire to rub people the wrong way and feel that, indeed, it is I, that must change....

I thank those of you who have befriended me in my short time here and have been able to look beyond my recklessness, especially you, Thaskalos....For the time being, I shall be getting up to speed in considering the many wonderful and informative threads already written...May all of you be fortunate in all of your endeavors....Vigors.

[ultracapper]

The inspiration for this thread was the effect that Nitro's posts caused in the Video Replay thread here. It reminded me of a phone conversation I engaged in recently...with one of the most prominent, most respected members of this board. This gentleman sent me a PM, asking me if everything was alright in my private life...because it appeared to him that I am a lot JUMPIER on this board now, than I had been in the past. It was a complicated issue to address by PM, so we agreed to talk on the phone...which is something that we had done in the past.

When he called me...he proceeded to tell me things that shocked the daylights out of me. After reminding me that we had many very sharp horseplayers on this board...he accused me of launching fierce written ATTACKS on these "intelligent horseplayers...seeking to "run over them", while ridiculing their opinions. And the sharper these other posters were, the more I was inclined to "attack" them...he told me. I had become a "DISRUPTIVE FORCE" on this board...he opined. (No, this wasn't one of the moderators here)

Naturally, I asked who these posters were that I was attacking...but he told me that he couldn't reveal their names, for privacy's sake. And when I asked for particular threads where he felt I was "running over" people while ridiculing their opinions...he told me that these threads weren't so hard to find. All I had to do was just look into ANY popular thread here...and I was sure to find Thaskalos just jumping in, and being a major "disrupting force".

Now...please don't misunderstand me. The main point of my thread here isn't this phone conversation that I had with this distinguished member of ours. He has the right to hold whatever opinion about me that he wishes...and I have the right to totally ignore his opinion of me -- which is exactly what I intend to do. The point of my thread here is to ask a simple question:

What kind of handicapping discussions do we want to hold on this board?

Have we become so "soft"...that we perceive every disagreement as a "personal attack" here? Is it "crashing down", or "running over" people...when someone here voices a dissenting opinion than the one that we ourselves have embraced? I happen to believe that the best horse racing debates stem from disagreements...but I could easily be mistaken about this. I look back on my posting history here...and I remember participating in stimulating conversations with many of the posters here. And the discussions were even livelier, when we started of DISAGREEING.

When a poster voices his disagreements in a civil tone, then he can never be accused of "running over people"...nor can it be said that he is being a "disruptive force', IMO. This board is centered around the exchange of ideas...and, as opinionated as we horseplayers are...certain disagreements are sure to arise. As long as things remain civil...disagreeing is fine, as far as I am concerned. But, as I said before...I could easily be wrong.

So...my concluding question becomes this:

Can we take a little criticism around here, or are our handicapping opinions "sacred"? When someone disagrees with our way of doing things, do we have the patience to "talk things out"...or do we regard this as a PERSONAL ATTACK?

Please forgive me for talking as if I am the "cop" of this board. I spend a lot of time here, and I like it. I say this on the off-chance that this gentleman who contacted me is right...and there is indeed something wrong with the type of behavior that I've been exhibiting here lately. I have enough enemies...and I don't wish them to increase in number.

Good job.

[ultracapper]

I think the handicapping discussions on this board are excellent for the most part. Yes, sometimes folks get a little sensitive when their opinions are challenged but when you put something out there then there will be very little discussion or fleshing out of the the facts if everyone agrees. In all the years going to the track, otb's etc. I have for the most part been unable to engage anyone in intelligent, knowledgeable conversation about racing. Weirdos, nuts, racetrack bums are the vocal ones but have nothing to offer except maybe humor. Good conversations about racing were rare. Discovering this site made me realize that there were knowledgeable handicappers out there that loved this game as much as I do. That is why I like this place so much.
There are some very knowledgeable people here and I have learned some things here and have always enjoyed following the handicapping discussions for the most part. The give and take is what drives the discussion as long as it is civil and without personal attacks that always seem to divert the topic it works pretty well.

This

[JohnGalt1]

Naturally, I asked who these posters were that I was attacking...but he told me that he couldn't reveal their names, for privacy's sake. And when I asked for particular threads where he felt I was "running over" people while ridiculing their opinions...he told me that these threads weren't so hard to find. All I had to do was just look into ANY popular thread here...and I was sure to find Thaskalos just jumping in, and being a major "disrupting force".


The fact that he couldn't or wouldn't state which threads or even the handles of those you supposedly disrespected and "ran over" is something I'd ignore if I were you.

On a scale of 1-100 --- 1 being least rude and overbearing to 100 being a total &%*$#, IMO I'd rate you a 2 1/2.

[Tall One]

I'd be worried for the stability of someone that would actually call you at home to discuss his perception of your internet horse racing forum posting tendencies.


I also found this somewhat...odd ..almost akin to some sports message boards I frequent that people resort to "I'll be here at such and such time if you want to fight.." I kid you not. But, I don't consider myself a loon, and if I reached out to a small handful of posters asking for some help with my 'capping, and pm's and emails ended up with contact over the phone, I would frankly consider myself honored the trust could indeed extend beyond PA's board. A man's or woman's word is their bond, and without that you're literally nothing too me.

Me, I'm small timer, always have been, always will be. My interactions here are minute compared to some. I'm far from a saint, but I learned a long time ago that reading and listening can get you further along than spouting off at the mouth....er, keyboard.

I haven't bet in 34 days, not sure how long that continues, only I can figure that out. I still log on, obviously, to keep track of some of the opinions I respect, and to just really keep myself within the industry trends. I have a feeling when I do get back with it, it will be more along the lines of going to the live meet down the road here, as well as going to the Red Mile and their new digs for live interaction. I enjoy sitting at a table with some familiar faces, or strangers, and discussing the action on the cards. I've never personally witnessed a fight break out, but I do appreciate the challenge issued in one or more words.."Why" and "What did you see?" Believe me, the folks we see at out OTB's across the way, are the same everywhere. Hard working guys that are either there to blow off some steam, or they're there to put food on the table, or a little bit of both. Just so happens my otb is also frequented by Michael Blowen, but that's for another thread. :)

There's been some cringe worthy posts we've all read on here, but the more ive separated myself from those threads, and, well, posters, the better my reading pleasure has been. That is by no means a stance, as we're all entitled to our own opinions in the game and industry alike.

I'm a meat and potato guy(w/p, exactas, early and late doubles), but that doesn't mean I don't learn or respect the sushi roll advice and methods that I read on here from time to time. :ThmbUp:

[whodoyoulike]

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering if this "most prominent" member of the board who thaskalos is talking about happens to be me, I can assure everyone (and thaskalos can back me on this) that it was NOT me... :lol:

I guess the tip off that it wasn't me was that thaskalos also called this person "most respected" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Didn't think of you at all regarding his comment. He's mentioned several times he has phone contact with another on here who I haven't seen post in quite a while but, I understand he's writing a book.

[CincyHorseplayer]

The inspiration for this thread was the effect that Nitro's posts caused in the Video Replay thread here. It reminded me of a phone conversation I engaged in recently...with one of the most prominent, most respected members of this board. This gentleman sent me a PM, asking me if everything was alright in my private life...because it appeared to him that I am a lot JUMPIER on this board now, than I had been in the past. It was a complicated issue to address by PM, so we agreed to talk on the phone...which is something that we had done in the past.

When he called me...he proceeded to tell me things that shocked the daylights out of me. After reminding me that we had many very sharp horseplayers on this board...he accused me of launching fierce written ATTACKS on these "intelligent horseplayers...seeking to "run over them", while ridiculing their opinions. And the sharper these other posters were, the more I was inclined to "attack" them...he told me. I had become a "DISRUPTIVE FORCE" on this board...he opined. (No, this wasn't one of the moderators here)

Naturally, I asked who these posters were that I was attacking...but he told me that he couldn't reveal their names, for privacy's sake. And when I asked for particular threads where he felt I was "running over" people while ridiculing their opinions...he told me that these threads weren't so hard to find. All I had to do was just look into ANY popular thread here...and I was sure to find Thaskalos just jumping in, and being a major "disrupting force".

Now...please don't misunderstand me. The main point of my thread here isn't this phone conversation that I had with this distinguished member of ours. He has the right to hold whatever opinion about me that he wishes...and I have the right to totally ignore his opinion of me -- which is exactly what I intend to do. The point of my thread here is to ask a simple question:

What kind of handicapping discussions do we want to hold on this board?

Have we become so "soft"...that we perceive every disagreement as a "personal attack" here? Is it "crashing down", or "running over" people...when someone here voices a dissenting opinion than the one that we ourselves have embraced? I happen to believe that the best horse racing debates stem from disagreements...but I could easily be mistaken about this. I look back on my posting history here...and I remember participating in stimulating conversations with many of the posters here. And the discussions were even livelier, when we started of DISAGREEING.

When a poster voices his disagreements in a civil tone, then he can never be accused of "running over people"...nor can it be said that he is being a "disruptive force', IMO. This board is centered around the exchange of ideas...and, as opinionated as we horseplayers are...certain disagreements are sure to arise. As long as things remain civil...disagreeing is fine, as far as I am concerned. But, as I said before...I could easily be wrong.

So...my concluding question becomes this:

Can we take a little criticism around here, or are our handicapping opinions "sacred"? When someone disagrees with our way of doing things, do we have the patience to "talk things out"...or do we regard this as a PERSONAL ATTACK?

Please forgive me for talking as if I am the "cop" of this board. I spend a lot of time here, and I like it. I say this on the off-chance that this gentleman who contacted me is right...and there is indeed something wrong with the type of behavior that I've been exhibiting here lately. I have enough enemies...and I don't wish them to increase in number.

I'm the perfect person to provide a response to this because we have disagreed badly in the past even to the point where I needed to be stage hooked. Still it does not hinder my ability to be influenced by you as a player or as a person. Argument is necessary and productive and styles make fights. It is inevitable. As horseplayers it can come as a shock because we dominantly live and dwell in our own world. This place ties many together to other equally intelligent and experienced players for the first time. If they are worth their salt they'll get over it. Once a player gets to the point where all the basics are reflexive and there is a foundation of years of experience the only assets left are self criticism and the input from other players of the same ilk. I couldn't live without ya scumbag! :)

[Nitro]

There’s an awful lot of good common sense posted on this thread, especially when it comes to general courtesy when responding to people’s opinions. I have to give Thaskalos a lot of credit for trying to maintain some civility. It’s pretty obvious to me anyway that he and others who share these sentiments are trying to raise the bar around here, and I think it can only lead to more productive banter.

Over the years since I’ve been on board I’ve gotten into some controversial discussions. They seem to start off okay, but for whatever reason whenever when there’s a varying opinion more often than not the person whose position is being questioned seems to take the opposite opinion personally. Then the personal attacks start in.

For those who might also care about things like this, I would like to also disclose that over this same period I’ve received PM’s sympathizing not so much with my position, but with the obvious uncalled for personal confrontations. The reason I mention this is because these same people in so many words have expressed their disillusionment and have explicitly stated that they have no interest in posting their opinions for this very reason. That’s really a shame, because as Thaskalos mentioned this should be a forum of ideas not idiosyncrasies and prima-donnas.

My personal suggestion to avoid confrontations is to simply ask yourself, “Is the comment directed at my idea or opinion, or is it directed at me personally because I hold that opinion or idea. I also believe that commenting on any opinion or idea is fair game. Just because we think or play differently doesn’t mean we can’t get along.
.
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[HalvOnHorseracing]

Naturally, I asked who these posters were that I was attacking...but he told me that he couldn't reveal their names, for privacy's sake. And when I asked for particular threads where he felt I was "running over" people while ridiculing their opinions...he told me that these threads weren't so hard to find. All I had to do was just look into ANY popular thread here...and I was sure to find Thaskalos just jumping in, and being a major "disrupting force".

I would hope that anyone who felt offended would express that directly.

There is clearly a difference between having a particular opinion and believing there are no other legitimate opinions. Good horseplayers can sound convincing and perhaps single minded when presenting their opinions, and certainly some people can take that the wrong way. If we were never wrong, we'd be busy spending our millions instead of taking the time to post here.

The good posters avoid making it personal - they can disagree without being disagreeable.

[kingfin66]

BTW, just in case anyone is wondering if this "most prominent" member of the board who thaskalos is talking about happens to be me, I can assure everyone (and thaskalos can back me on this) that it was NOT me... :lol:

I guess the tip off that it wasn't me was that thaskalos also called this person "most respected" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thask made it clear in his post that it was not one of the moderators who told him this. Now that you mention it, there have been at least a couple of threads where you have jumped Thask. In one, you flexed your Admin muscles, while in another you picked a fight with him about Dave Schwartz's latest and greatest project when Thask indicated an interest in buying it.

With that said, let me say that you have a tough job and generally do a good job of moderating this sight. The horseplayer demographic is not an easy one to keep in line and sometimes we do a great impression of a Republican debate (sorry for the political reference!). I actually heard you on one of Dave's videos after seeing your bad interactions with Thask. I was actually very surprised to hear how soft spoken you are. It aligns a lot with the patience that you exude most of the time.

[kingfin66]

This is an interesting thread. I will, for starters, give the PA member credit for being honest with you and sharing his thoughts with you personally rather than flaming you in a thread or a PM, even if you do not agree with his assessment. I hope that the manner in which he presented his opinion to you was a respectful as the manner in which you share your opinions at Pace Advantage. You are, by the way, very respectful.

I think that one of the problems with PA is that a lot of the bad feelings from the Off Topic section spill over into the horse racing part of the board. Many people on this forum have much stronger feelings about politics than they do horse racing. I find myself moving in this direction as well.

What kind of handicapping discussions do we want to hold on this board?

Have we become so "soft"...that we perceive every disagreement as a "personal attack" here? Is it "crashing down", or "running over" people...when someone here voices a dissenting opinion than the one that we ourselves have embraced? I happen to believe that the best horse racing debates stem from disagreements...but I could easily be mistaken about this. I look back on my posting history here...and I remember participating in stimulating conversations with many of the posters here. And the discussions were even livelier, when we started of DISAGREEING.

I think that there is great potential for having meaningful and tough discussions about racing on this site. It does actually happen to a large degree, but there are times when people do get personal. This puts a great burden on the (few) mods to crack down on those people. You are not one of those people. I could go on and on, but would just repeat what others do.

Just keep doing what you do.

[classhandicapper]

I think handicapping discussions are good source of new insights, but seldom do people back up their opinions with hard data. That makes it tougher to know if what they are saying is an opinion derived from experience (which may or may not be flawed) or something that has actually been researched and demonstrated to be true statistically. I don't blame anyone for that. If you do find valuable insights why would you be anxious to share them?

[Mandrake]

I think handicapping discussions are good source of new insights, but seldom do people back up their opinions with hard data. That makes it tougher to know if what they are saying is an opinion derived from experience (which may or may not be flawed) or something that has actually been researched and demonstrated to be true statistically. I don't blame anyone for that. If you do find valuable insights why would you be anxious to share them?

If anyone found the holy grail of handicapping, they wouldn't share it with anyone. And I wouldn't blame them.

[maddog42]

Thaskalos, you have been a bit cranky. Not bad, just a tad irritable sounding.
No big deal, probably no worse than me.

[baldvin]

After you called poor Professor Goren a liar he disappeared from this board

EDIT: Goren is back, and this is going way too far. I cut this post way down. No more like this. --- CJ

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I have yet to get into any arguments on here, and i really dont plan to. I enjoy reading the opinions on everything on this board. The fact is these are just peoples opinions in the first place. Take them for what they are. People here are knowledgeable and I appreciate the board for this reason alone.

It is also easy to take things out of context here. Just like with emails or text messages, there is sometimes a grey area because you cant hear the tone with which things were said. Come to think about it, in person I have never had an argument over horse racing. Disagreements sure, but never anything that offends me on a personal level.

The internet has spawned a crop of internet tough guys, and I am pretty sure 95% of what is said on here would never be said in person. Twitter does the same thing, allows people to start a firestorm about a topic without allowing for any deliberation over the validity of the comment itself.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think that one of the problems with PA is that a lot of the bad feelings from the Off Topic section spill over into the horse racing part of the board. Many people on this forum have much stronger feelings about politics than they do horse racing. I find myself moving in this direction as well.I don't agree with this at all. Not one single bit. There are guys I mix it up with on off-topic (Hcap + others) that I *NEVER* have any disagreements with over here on the horse side.

In fact, I can't think of a single person whom I clash with over in off-topic that in any way carries over to the horse racing side.

Tom can really be a monkey in off-topic, but again, those very same people you seem him clashing with on off-topic, they're virtually patting each other on the back in the racing section.

I believe if any type of situation like you state above develops, it is extremely rare.

[Tom]

What happens in OT stays in OT.
We are horse players first and foremost.

[Capper Al]

Your the site's golden boy. I do appreciate your early posts in new threads. It helps getting the action going.

[Tall One]

What happens in OT stays in OT.
We are horse players first and foremost.


Agreed, Tom.

In my brief time, i dont recall a spill over, and PA Mike does a great job of enforcing this most important house rule. I mean, it is what it is over there, and over here, we're all in the same boat trying to lose the same money.

[thaskalos]

After you called poor Professor Goren a liar he disappeared from this board

EDIT: Goren is back, and this is going way too far. I cut this post way down. No more like this. --- CJ

I wish I could see this post in its entirety...although addressing trolls from Iceland isn't high up on my list of priorities. Have you started gambling yet, friend...or do you still just like to hang around here, so you can exercise your "freedom of expression"? If YOU are free to express your opinions here...then, why shouldn't I?

[baldvin]

I wish I could see this post in its entirety...although addressing trolls from Iceland isn't high up on my list of priorities. Have you started gambling yet, friend...or do you still just like to hang around here, so you can exercise your "freedom of expression"? If YOU are free to express your opinions here...then, why shouldn't I?My English isn't perfect so my wife will write for me sometimes.

My post was a joke. CJ deleted most of it. He has zero sense of humor. I think you would have got the joke.

In answer to your question you have the right to say whatever you wish, and you do. I don't see anyone stopping you.

Oh, yes I gamble. Not important though.

I rarely post, because my English is not good, (Still learning), and because what I am thinking someone will eventually say, so I don't need to. (But I do read a lot.)

When a young child my mother told me, you have two ears and one mouth. Use that information appropriately.

[ultracapper]

A father figure of mine told me when I was young that there is a reason God gave you two ears, two eyes, and only one mouth.

Same thing.

[riskman]

I See nothing that should change about the manner in which you conduct yourself. You have have been fair in your approach and I am at a loss to see what this poster is complaining about.

Peronally, I do not contribute to the board on a regular basis. I do read just about everything on the horse and off topic. I enjoy both, and hope that you will continue to do things as in the past.

[thaskalos]

I See nothing that should change about the manner in which you conduct yourself. You have have been fair in your approach and I am at a loss to see what this poster is complaining about.

Peronally, I do not contribute to the board on a regular basis. I do read just about everything on the horse and off topic. I enjoy both, and hope that you will continue to do things as in the past.

Just so there is no misunderstanding...I don't claim to be "perfect" in my online transactions here, nor am I placing myself above criticism. I am opinionated...and I sometimes voice my opinions quite strongly. But I don't feel that I "run over" people here...nor do I think that I single out the "brightest" members here for my "attacks". But...it is also true that we don't see ourselves as others see us.

As I said before...I don't come here to make enemies, and I wanted to change my behavior, if it indeed had become a problem here.

I thank you, and everybody else here, for your input...and your advice. I appreciate it.

[whodoyoulike]

I wish I could see this post in its entirety...although addressing trolls from Iceland isn't high up on my list of priorities. Have you started gambling yet, friend...or do you still just like to hang around here, so you can exercise your "freedom of expression"? If YOU are free to express your opinions here...then, why shouldn't I?

Why don't you look it up?

Maybe Replay or SRU can help you out. They're both good at doing stuff like this. Sounds as though you didn't say what is being claimed. And, I don't know why it was necessary to have it EDITED OUT.

And, why was it necessary to bring up where he's from and the rest of your response?

[thaskalos]

Why don't you look it up?

Maybe Replay or SRU can help you out. Sounds as though you didn't say what is being claimed. I don't know why it was necessary to have it EDITED OUT.

And, why was it necessary to bring up where he's from and the rest of your response?
When it comes to appropriate behavior here...you are not the one that I'd like to emulate.

[EMD4ME]

When it comes to appropriate behavior here...you are not the one that I'd like to emulate.

OK, please allow me, for once, to be the child (who's picking his nose) who stands and watches the intelligent grown up embarrass the wannabe :lol: :lol: :lol:

Or am I misinterpreting all this due to my lack of reading comprehension? :lol:

WhodoIlike? Thaskalos. As respectful and witty as they come.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I love this forum.

While I haven't been here near as long as most others on here, I have certainly enjoyed my time here.

We all poke and jab at each other. It is what we do as horseplayers in the most competitive wagering sport in the country.

I say most competitive, because I truly believe that the assembled, and serious, horseplayers are some of the smartest and most involved and invested gamblers in this country.

While some of those "idiots" may like Blackjack, or the pull of a slot machine, our minds need something much more challenging. Something that if we invest the time, intelligence, and patience, can actually win and making a living over the long run year after year after year. (Although that pool is obviously dwindling.).

I love the challenge. The challenge of figuring out a race. Be it Tampa Bay Downs, Delta Downs, or the Breeders Cup Championships. They are all a puzzle that we have to figure out.

I'm not some dull soul pushing a button on a slot machine, or giving a 'tap' to stay or a 'wave' to get another card at a Blackjack game in which Joe Loser can affect whether I win or lose.

Anyway, sorry for the long...., rant, or whatever it was. I have a lot of respect for a number of people on here, including the OP in Thask. While we may disagree, that is why I am here. I find my most intriguing conversations with those I disagree with, because it makes me look and think about my own handicapping skills or methods. And that is exactly why I am here. To learn, and hopefully share some knowledge that I may have.

Us horseplayers are a dying breed. It is great to have a community in which we can banter about with one another, regardless of backgrounds and beliefs. There are 100 ways or more to skin this cat, we only need to find one with each and every race that is available.

[whodoyoulike]

When it comes to appropriate behavior here...you are not the one that I'd like to emulate.

Considering your response to Baldvin was in this thread, it appears you didn't even comprehend the purpose of your OP.

So, I take it you didn't write what Baldvin wrote because I remember it very clearly.

If you had any class you would apologize to him (RG) in the same public manner as your insult since you're wrong. Btw, you wouldn't know how to emulate me.

Just remember, I have no problem calling someone a POS when the individual acts like a POS!

[AndyC]

Definition of forum
an assembly, meeting place, for the discussion of questions of public interest.

Definition of censor

any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.

You really should change forum to censored forum on the web site.


Would you agree that a person exhibiting very poor manners, being rude and obnoxious is a cancer for any thriving forum? I have seen several forums go downhill quickly do to a flew blowhards with poor manners. Give me a supervised forum any day. There is a distinct difference between censorship of ideas and censoring for personal attacks.

[Tom]

Definition of owner.

The guy who pays the bills.
The guy who makes the rules.

[EMD4ME]

I love this forum.

While I haven't been here near as long as most others on here, I have certainly enjoyed my time here.

We all poke and jab at each other. It is what we do as horseplayers in the most competitive wagering sport in the country.

I say most competitive, because I truly believe that the assembled, and serious, horseplayers are some of the smartest and most involved and invested gamblers in this country.

While some of those "idiots" may like Blackjack, or the pull of a slot machine, our minds need something much more challenging. Something that if we invest the time, intelligence, and patience, can actually win and making a living over the long run year after year after year. (Although that pool is obviously dwindling.).

I love the challenge. The challenge of figuring out a race. Be it Tampa Bay Downs, Delta Downs, or the Breeders Cup Championships. They are all a puzzle that we have to figure out.

I'm not some dull soul pushing a button on a slot machine, or giving a 'tap' to stay or a 'wave' to get another card at a Blackjack game in which Joe Loser can affect whether I win or lose.

Anyway, sorry for the long...., rant, or whatever it was. I have a lot of respect for a number of people on here, including the OP in Thask. While we may disagree, that is why I am here. I find my most intriguing conversations with those I disagree with, because it makes me look and think about my own handicapping skills or methods. And that is exactly why I am here. To learn, and hopefully share some knowledge that I may have.

Us horseplayers are a dying breed. It is great to have a community in which we can banter about with one another, regardless of backgrounds and beliefs. There are 100 ways or more to skin this cat, we only need to find one with each and every race that is available.

Like the movie Ghost, Ditto. Well said !

I for one am on here simply because this is my passion. I love the constant mind stimuation and challenge of this game. I love the smell of horse shit and I love to interact with horseplayers.

[thaskalos]

Considering your response to Baldvin was in this thread, it appears you didn't even comprehend the purpose of your OP.

So, I take it you didn't write what Baldvin wrote because I remember it very clearly.

If you had any class you would apologize to him (RG) in the same public manner as your insult since you're wrong. Btw, you wouldn't know how to emulate me.

Just remember, I have no problem calling someone a POS when the individual acts like a POS!

When Robert Goren and I argued about bookies and their business practices, he was dead wrong...and there were no "insults" thrown about either way. He said that my bookie keeps my action because I am obviously a losing player...and I told him that he didn't know what he was talking about when it came to how the bookies run their business. It was a disagreement without any insults...and no apology is due either way. And if you ask RG...I am convinced that he would agree with me on this.

I called Baldvin a troll...because he came out of a six-year posting hiatus to tell me that I was the one who was responsible for RG leaving this board. This is a blatant lie...since it's common knowledge that RG went away for health reasons. Again...if you ask Robert Goren, he will tell you that there is no personal animosity between him and I...nor have there ever been any hard feelings between us.

You say that I have no class...but it's YOU who is calling me a POS. If I were really as classless as you think I am...then my response to you would have an altogether DIFFERENT tone. But I have too much respect for PA and the members here to give you the reply that you deserve.

[EMD4ME]

Considering your response to Baldvin was in this thread, it appears you didn't even comprehend the purpose of your OP.

So, I take it you didn't write what Baldvin wrote because I remember it very clearly.

If you had any class you would apologize to him (RG) in the same public manner as your insult since you're wrong. Btw, you wouldn't know how to emulate me.

Just remember, I have no problem calling someone a POS when the individual acts like a POS!

I'm only here 30 months but in that 30 months I must say that Thaskalos has earned if not the most, 1 of the most amounts of respect that 1 can garner for a fellow poster.

He is witty, speaks eloquently and is civil. I appreciate your loyalty to RG. We all appreciate being loyal but I think you're barking up the wrong tree...

[Cratos]

Would you agree that a person exhibiting very poor manners, being rude and obnoxious is a cancer for any thriving forum? I have seen several forums go downhill quickly do to a flew blowhards with poor manners. Give me a supervised forum any day. There is a distinct difference between censorship of ideas and censoring for personal attacks.
I will agree with you, but many posters want their posts to be the truth regardless of the contradicting evidence to the contrary.

Horserace handicapping like baseball; was built on anecdotal information for a long period of time, but baseball took a sharp turn toward science with the inception of Bill James "sabermetrics."

Horserace handicapping hasn't gotten to that analytical level yet and might never do so because of the waning interest in horseracing.

What is sometimes hard to understand is the sophisticated analytics that goes into the breeding of race horses, but the same analytics with intellect hasn't transferred over to the handicapping side of horseracing.

Also horserace handicapping is a methodology based on science and is not a science within itself.

During my nearly 12 year tenure on this forum I have read posts that was intellectually and scientifically very good, but they were typically overshadowed by the Nay Sayers.

I read posts for my interest in horseracing and I can verify or validate the thesis of the post independently for myself.

Also I am very supportive of anyone posting whatever as long as their posts dosen't violate the TOS of this forum, but I what am vehemently against is the deletion of a post because the "moderator" have made himself the judge and jury of "content."

[ultracapper]

Would you agree that a person exhibiting very poor manners, being rude and obnoxious is a cancer for any thriving forum? I have seen several forums go downhill quickly do to a flew blowhards with poor manners. Give me a supervised forum any day. There is a distinct difference between censorship of ideas and censoring for personal attacks.

DRF had a very active forum in the early 2000s that was shut down because much of the behavior was just utter nonsense. Posters with a dozen or more handles, arguing with others, with each other. There'd be threads where 3 people would be arguing, and it would be the same poster behind each handle.

[EMD4ME]

DRF had a very active forum in the early 2000s that was shut down because much of the behavior was just utter nonsense. Posters with a dozen or more handles, arguing with others, with each other. There'd be threads where 3 people would be arguing, and it would be the same poster behind each handle.

WOW! People are that pathetic?

This is my first and only horse forum. My head would spin if I had 2 handles or 2 sites to post on!

[ultracapper]

Man, they'd get so confused. They'd forget the back story of one personality, mix it up with another. Funny stuff. There was this one gal from Idaho. She was the whipping boy of the forum. God she could be a riot sometimes. She posted Volponi like an hour after the race, whooping it up and congratulating herself from 10 different directions. Thing is, the race was run in the midwest or the east coast, and her time stamp was PST, so it looked like she posted it an hour early if you just looked at the time stamp, until you realized it was PST, and not EST.

Freakin hilarious. It was historic.

[ultracapper]

I remember it perfect now. The race was at Arlington. It went off at 3:30 local time, 4:30 EST, 1:30 PST. She posted Volponi is my classic horse at like 2:41. That was her time stamp. But she didn't notice the little "p" after the time stamp, meaning she posted it at 2:41 PST, 4:41 local time, a full hour after the race. For awhile she was posting like a mad woman. "Look at when I posted it. How could you all miss that?" and on and on. You could hear the laughter here in Seattle that the folks in Chicago and NY were having at that time.

Definitely one of the times I wish I could have actually heard the other posters instead of just reading them. The forum was merciless on her for a month. It was too damn funny.

She once put $16,000 on a straight superfecta bet. I shit you not. She was trying to sell that to the forum.

She once claimed winning a $245,000 superfecta. The thing is, the payoff was posted as a $1 payoff, but the pool was like $40,000, meaning there was 1 dime winner. But for the entire night, she was swearing to God and anybody that would listen that she had a quarter million in her TVG account.

[ultracapper]

Sorry, it was a $16,000 exacta. I was already thinking about the superfecta one before I typed out that sentence.

For months, when ever anybody posted a pick, we'd say this is the one to put $16,000 on. If it was just a flyer, we'd say, wait for a better one to put your $16,000 on. Man, you had to be there. It was a freakin riot. I'd stay up until like 4:30am on work nights because she'd have some grandpa from Virginia, a sister from Wisconsin, and a best friend in Jamaica, and they'd all be having a discussion, but they were all her. It was so obvious.

And the friend in Jamaica would type like they speak. So instead of typing 'man", she'd type "mon", as if just because they pronounce it different, they spell it different also. My God, we would ride her for days. She was the I-da-Hoe.

[kingfin66]

I don't agree with this at all. Not one single bit. There are guys I mix it up with on off-topic (Hcap + others) that I *NEVER* have any disagreements with over here on the horse side.

In fact, I can't think of a single person whom I clash with over in off-topic that in any way carries over to the horse racing side.

Tom can really be a monkey in off-topic, but again, those very same people you seem him clashing with on off-topic, they're virtually patting each other on the back in the racing section.

I believe if any type of situation like you state above develops, it is extremely rare.

I would say that it was better than in the past, but I still see vestiges of it here and there. We are all entitled to our opinions. Note that I did actually praise you in my post, and it was not intended as a backhanded compliment. What I don't understand is why you interjected Tom into the thread. It is really baffling since I did not mention him in any way. Tom has always been aces as far as I am concerned. He is willing to answer anybody's questions regardless of any disagreements he may have had with them. If I were ever fortunate enough to meet him in person (I do plan on making it to Saratoga someday....maybe even this summer when Griffey goes into the HOF), I would gladly buy him lunch or dinner and some adult beverages. May I assume that since you singled out just this one part of my post that you agree with the balance of it?

[Stillriledup]

Would you agree that a person exhibiting very poor manners, being rude and obnoxious is a cancer for any thriving forum? I have seen several forums go downhill quickly do to a flew blowhards with poor manners. Give me a supervised forum any day. There is a distinct difference between censorship of ideas and censoring for personal attacks.

I think his point is that there's random censorship here and not just for personal attacks. I've had plenty of posts here deleted that had nothing to do with a personal attack, didn't display poor manners and didn't violate the TOS in any way.

[cj]

I think his point is that there's random censorship here and not just for personal attacks. I've had plenty of posts here deleted that had nothing to do with a personal attack, didn't display poor manners and didn't violate the TOS in any way.

It isn't random. It is with cause. If you keep trying to dredge up the same old points that you've been harping on for years in threads that really don't fit, the post will be gone. I should probably delete way more than I do to be honest.

[AndyC]

I think his point is that there's random censorship here and not just for personal attacks. I've had plenty of posts here deleted that had nothing to do with a personal attack, didn't display poor manners and didn't violate the TOS in any way.

Give me an example of random censorship without a personal attack that you have seen. I am amazed at a lot of the stuff that isn't censored.

[thaskalos]

You cannot run a popular board without "censorship" of some type. There is a line that needs to be drawn, otherwise chaos prevails...and that's never a good thing. There is no "random" censorship here that I could see.

[pandy]

DRF had a very active forum in the early 2000s that was shut down because much of the behavior was just utter nonsense. Posters with a dozen or more handles, arguing with others, with each other. There'd be threads where 3 people would be arguing, and it would be the same poster behind each handle.


The same thing happened the USTA forum, ruined by morons.

[EMD4ME]

Man, they'd get so confused. They'd forget the back story of one personality, mix it up with another. Funny stuff. There was this one gal from Idaho. She was the whipping boy of the forum. God she could be a riot sometimes. She posted Volponi like an hour after the race, whooping it up and congratulating herself from 10 different directions. Thing is, the race was run in the midwest or the east coast, and her time stamp was PST, so it looked like she posted it an hour early if you just looked at the time stamp, until you realized it was PST, and not EST.

Freakin hilarious. It was historic.

Ultracapper, nice 3 posts! I'm ashamed to admit that I wasn't even on line till 2006 or so. SORRY I Missed that stuff!

[pandy]

Thask can be pretty cynical at times and I'm sure that rubs some people the wrong way. But, I believe that people should be themselves. If this forum was too politically correct it would suck. And I don't like being around people who never show their passion for anything.

My wife and I are friends with a woman who has thin skin, and is extremely critical of other people. We put up with her because we've known her for years and we understand her. But the bottom line is, she has burned most of her bridges so she now has very few friends.

Different personalities make the world an interesting place.

[Tom]

You cannot run a popular board without "censorship" of some type. There is a line that needs to be drawn, otherwise chaos prevails...and that's never a good thing. There is no "random" censorship here that I could see.
Ah, you should have been in the old Yahoo Horse Players United! :eek:
The home of Frankatus!

[ultracapper]

The same thing happened the USTA forum, ruined by morons.

I'm pretty sure Serling had a big hand in convincing the folks at DRF to close that board down. I think he basically went to somebody there and said......Look, you're the #1 web site in horse racing. You get new people coming onto your site, and joining the chat room, and getting scared off because it's such a lunatic lounge.

I'm pretty sure it kind of played out that way. It was virtually non-moderated. It was the wild west of chat rooms.

[VigorsTheGrey]

I don't like to state things too obviously...with me you simply must be able to read between the lines...sometimes I don't even know what I am saying!

[whodoyoulike]

I'm pretty sure Serling had a big hand in convincing the folks at DRF to close that board down. I think he basically went to somebody there and said......Look, you're the #1 web site in horse racing. You get new people coming onto your site, and joining the chat room, and getting scared off because it's such a lunatic lounge.

I'm pretty sure it kind of played out that way. It was virtually non-moderated. It was the wild west of chat rooms.

It was basically 3 -4 people dominating most threads (sound familiar?). I liked Yoda on Acid's posts. I wonder if (s)he posts on here.

Why would Serling have been involved with DRF?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Nothing more useless than a group of ten that all agree with one another and can't find enough ways to be complimentary about it.

[Tom]

Excellent point, JHS.
You really hit that one out of the park.
Like always.

Amazing how often you are so spot on.
And on so many different topics. You are so insightful, we are lucky to have you here. It is refreshing to read such relevant ideas day after day.

[castaway01]

I'm pretty sure Serling had a big hand in convincing the folks at DRF to close that board down. I think he basically went to somebody there and said......Look, you're the #1 web site in horse racing. You get new people coming onto your site, and joining the chat room, and getting scared off because it's such a lunatic lounge.

I'm pretty sure it kind of played out that way. It was virtually non-moderated. It was the wild west of chat rooms.

I know he posted a lot there and got tired of the insane people, but why do you think he would care enough or have the power to get it shut down? That was a decade ago, wasn't it? I remember when he hit that Pick 6 "live" there. Very entertaining day. But yeah, that site was nuts.

[EMD4ME]

Nothing more useless than a group of ten that all agree with one another and can't find enough ways to be complimentary about it.

I DISAGREE!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Excellent point, JHS.
You really hit that one out of the park.
Like always.

Amazing how often you are so spot on.
And on so many different topics. You are so insightful, we are lucky to have you here. It is refreshing to read such relevant ideas day after day.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree completely. You are the best. Well, one of the best. Don't want anyone else to feel less than the best.

[ultracapper]

I know he posted a lot there and got tired of the insane people, but why do you think he would care enough or have the power to get it shut down? That was a decade ago, wasn't it? I remember when he hit that Pick 6 "live" there. Very entertaining day. But yeah, that site was nuts.

I remember he didn't think that board was any good for DRF. I'm not saying he had the power, but I'm thinking he at minimum made some comments to some people he knows. As for caring, if it's anything to do with horse racing, and Andy Serling has anything to do with it, he cares. I've never met the guy, but I had enough interaction with him to appreciate the passion he brought to what ever he does. He spoke passionately about movies and music and horse racing. It's just his make up to care if it's something he's involved in.

Call me what you want. I'm an unashamed huge fan.

[kingfin66]

I know he posted a lot there and got tired of the insane people, but why do you think he would care enough or have the power to get it shut down? That was a decade ago, wasn't it? I remember when he hit that Pick 6 "live" there. Very entertaining day. But yeah, that site was nuts.

Now it sounds as though he has to deal with similar on Twitter.

[mountainman]

If anyone found the holy grail of handicapping, they wouldn't share it with anyone. And I wouldn't blame them.

With all respect, sir, that is the FIRST thing they would do. We all have human egos. And the ego covets recognition above all else. Humans tell what they know-even to their own detriment.

[mountainman]

Sadly, trolls and feuds draw eyeballs and boost hit counts, but negativity also drives away classier posters. And that has to present the admins with tough calls,especially since some of the trolls here are sharp handicappers and cloak themselves in passive aggression.

[Tom]

I have heard that every web forum has at least one obnoxious troll, but I have never found one anywhere I go.

[rastajenk]

If anyone found the holy grail of handicapping, they wouldn't share it with anyone. And I wouldn't blame them.I would if I thought it would help grow the game. It's bigger and more important than me. However, as mountainman alludes to above, if some celebrity came my way, I could probably dig that for a while.

[Mandrake]

And you should go **** yourself

A real class act. I'm in New York, just pick the place and you can say that to my face, and then we will see what happens tough guy. And you better bring something more than your eraser.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Well the thread has made a 180 turnabout and seems to be descending into chaos....the kind of chaos that Thaskalos was trying to address by creating this thread! It MUST be endemic in the media itself...this is my conclusion. These short brief messages (twitterverse) lend themselves to misinterpretation....Our ideas need sufficient verbal detail and expansion in order to function as significant messages....rushed self-expression is common here at the expense of clarity and thoughtfulness. We must remember to be kind to one another, otherwise we can not hope to continue with what we all love to do: share ideas.

I am just as guilty of rushing into communication just because I want to be part of the dialogue....so Thaskalos' original post questions remain. I'm going to take a minute to reread it....

[thaskalos]

Well the thread has made a 180 turnabout and seems to be descending into chaos....the kind of chaos that Thaskalos was trying to address by creating this thread! It MUST be endemic in the media itself...this is my conclusion. These short brief messages (twitterverse) lend themselves to misinterpretation....Our ideas need sufficient verbal detail and expansion in order to function as significant messages....rushed self-expression is common here at the expense of clarity and thoughtfulness. We must remember to be kind to one another, otherwise we can not hope to continue with what we all love to do: share ideas.

I am just as guilty of rushing into communication just because I want to be part of the dialogue....so Thaskalos' original post questions remain. I'm going to take a minute to reread it....

Our posts here must necessarily be "short brief messages", as well...and they too are prone to misinterpretation. If we were able to talk face-to-face about the topics that we write about here...then we wouldn't get into the arguments that we sometimes get into on this board.

The online forum isn't the ideal format for extensive debating.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Our posts here must necessarily be "short brief messages", as well...and they too are prone to misinterpretation. If we were able to talk face-to-face about the topics that we write about here...then we wouldn't get into the arguments that we sometimes get into on this board.

The online forum isn't the ideal format for extensive debating.

This is true. With most, if not all, of the folks that I encounter regularly, my communication is limited to the usual "oh, it looks like it's going to be another cold one tonight, Joe..." and so forth....I would never even begin to broach the subjects we get into here and in off-topics with them!

I've sort of given up on intelligent conversations with other people...some people would even say that that last statement proves what a snob I really am...that I require "intelligent" conversations....I'm just so very tired of not engaging my mind...I only have a few more years before that too will go....as I meander towards the dreaded "drool years." I know I don't have the best mind around by far..but at least I try...

[ultracapper]

The drool years.

I love it.

[Grits]

This is true. With most, if not all, of the folks that I encounter regularly, my communication is limited to the usual "oh, it looks like it's going to be another cold one tonight, Joe..." and so forth....I would never even begin to broach the subjects we get into here and in off-topics with them!

The fact that you engage in more interesting or significantly meaningful conversation with people who are online, people you may not ever come face to face with as opposed to people that are part of your daily life--family, friends, co-workers, etc. says far more than you realize.

I've sort of given up on intelligent conversations with other people...some people would even say that that last statement proves what a snob I really am...that I require "intelligent" conversations....I'm just so very tired of not engaging my mind...I only have a few more years before that too will go....as I meander towards the dreaded "drool years." I know I don't have the best mind around by far..but at least I try...

Engaging one's mind is a choice. I've never found anyone--too old or too young--incapable of engaging my own. Some, of course, more than others; still, if they make me smile, they're aces! Life's hard, every day.

Blaming others for our own condition isn't a good idea. Please. Don't limit your interest in mankind to only those who enjoy horse racing and it's message boards. This would be courting misery! I'm older than many of the men, here, who would tell you this. And btw, I don't drool. ;)

[Robert Fischer]

authority , consensus, and our own opinions often trump 'truth' in the realities of our every day lives

that can be a culture shock or a rude awakening for people who do something like handicapping and expect those same laws to govern this different model.

[ReplayRandall]

authority , consensus, and our own opinions often trump 'truth' in the realities of our every day lives

that can be a culture shock or a rude awakening for people who do something like handicapping and expect those same laws to govern this different model.

I agree with your comments RF, and I would like to add, that most every poster doesn't like having others DEFINING what reality is for them. Whether it's every day life, or handicapping opinions and methodologies, these opposing viewpoints, with differing realities, sometimes ignite conflict and tension, which eventually leads to the escalation of rudeness, smugness and insulting behavior......

[NY BRED]

Truth be told, members should learn from their mistakes
and possibly improve their game by reviewing the posts on
the majority of topics posted on this forum.

That said, regardless of the rants and "takeaways"
if your bottom line profit has improved due to
this forum , you should perservere even if
someone marks you as a target

as most of know, what comes around goes around.

[ultracapper]

Freedom of speech can not be infringed by the government. PA and his mods can shut down your "freedom of speech" any time they like on this forum.

[EMD4ME]

Love people who EXPLAIN WHY they like a horse/race.

Can't stand people who are NEVER willing to listen in a handicapping disagreement.

Can't stand people who never have a solid opinion. (Wishy washy).

Love people who understand that crap happened in the last race (whatever race were discussin) and that the CHAOS caused the result.

Hate people who say : I TOLD YOU that X would lose when X was slammed by 3 horse's at the start, lost 7 lengths and almost dumped the jock.

Love people who have active listening skills and have the interest in discussing not WINNING a discussion.

[PaceAdvantage]

Freedom of speech can not be infringed by the government. PA and his mods can shut down your "freedom of speech" any time they like on this forum.Someone with a brain. How refreshing around here.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thread reopened after a much needed cleansing...

[NorCalGreg]

Thread reopened after a much needed cleansing...


hmmmm....now what's there to talk about?

My GRAMMARLY APP says you should have included a hyphen between "much" and "needed"...in your sentence.

That's something interesting, right?

[rastajenk]

I'd say your app is wrong. Much is an adjective modifying needed, and adjectives don't generally need to be connected with hyphens.

[NorCalGreg]

Man...we must be bored :D

For what the app cost (free) ....I'm not gonna argue

[castaway01]

I'd say your app is wrong. Much is an adjective modifying needed, and adjectives don't generally need to be connected with hyphens.

No, you're wrong. In this case, it depends on what "much" is intended to do. Here it modifies "needed". The word "much" usually refers to quantity, so to avoid ambiguity you need the hyphen to make that link unbreakable. To use another example, if you said "the most skilled workers" and were talking about the number of workers, no hyphen. If you were talking about the skill level of the workers, then hyphen to connect "most" and "skilled".

Source: Chicago Manual of Style, and myself since I've been editing books and journals for the past decade

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[Tom]

Sadly, this thread is far more interesting than any of the lousy racing coast to coast on Big Crap Weekend.

[rastajenk]

After this weekend, Chicago Manual of Style sounds like an oxymoron.

[the little guy]

I'm pretty sure Serling had a big hand in convincing the folks at DRF to close that board down. I think he basically went to somebody there and said......Look, you're the #1 web site in horse racing. You get new people coming onto your site, and joining the chat room, and getting scared off because it's such a lunatic lounge.

I'm pretty sure it kind of played out that way. It was virtually non-moderated. It was the wild west of chat rooms.

I saw some of this last night, and just for the record, I had absolutely NOTHING to do with the DRF board getting shut down. My powers are not as strong as you seem to think :)

You're right about one thing....that old DRF board was wildly entertaining. However, the $16K bet thing actually started with some poster named Trackgod ( yeah, it was a REALLY entertaining place ) who claimed to have bet $16K on Smarty Jones in the Derby, and after that anytime someone said they liked a horse a lot, people would ask if they were betting $16K.

I made some good friends from that board. It was barely monitored, however, and as you said before, inundated with insane multiples. Good times!

[VigorsTheGrey]

No, you're wrong. In this case, it depends on what "much" is intended to do. Here it modifies "needed". The word "much" usually refers to quantity, so to avoid ambiguity you need the hyphen to make that link unbreakable. To use another example, if you said "the most skilled workers" and were talking about the number of workers, no hyphen. If you were talking about the skill level of the workers, then hyphen to connect "most" and "skilled".

Source: Chicago Manual of Style, and myself since I've been editing books and journals for the past decade

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

It is a subtle distinction and I understand what you are saying....unless one is continually keeping this in mind...one is like to forget...and "much" is a strange nebulous word on top of it.

[mountainman]

The next person who puts a tuff beat ticket on my form, where
I'm forced to look at it, is going to get laid out. I'm tired of taking the time to even digest how the numbers were arranged and pretending to commiserate.

It's becoming a real issue.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The next person who puts a tuff beat ticket on my form, where
I'm forced to look at it, is going to get laid out. I'm tired of taking the time to even digest how the numbers were arranged and pretending to commiserate.

It's becoming a real issue.


:lol: :lol:

Worse yet the multiple tickets from the same race and same wager type that seem to bear no resemblance to one another accompanied with a petition to see just how deftly they handicapped the race but somehow managed to just miss the proper combination of the 19 different horses they used.

[EMD4ME]

The next person who puts a tuff beat ticket on my form, where
I'm forced to look at it, is going to get laid out. I'm tired of taking the time to even digest how the numbers were arranged and pretending to commiserate.

It's becoming a real issue.

I understand. I sometimes do feel bad as we have all been there.

1 friend punched up a dozen pick 6 tickets at GP. All had 18 in leg 4. Guy punched 19 on the 11th ticket by accident. That ticket came in and of course the guy lost it due to the true error.

That I feel sorry for and can make time to listen to.

It's the guy that always seems to lose with some incoherent jab at a sequence that I have no patience for as well.

If you're gonna look for sympathy, please make it a truly good story. Not the usual: I just missed look. And please, don't do it too often or when it's not warranted.

I hate it when someone does that when I am in deep thought or when I'm visibly punching in tickets. I totally ignore and proceed on with my bets because if I take a second to say: I'm busy, can we talk later, it takes my brain away from the tickets I'm punching in.

Find that rude.

When I speak to horseplayers, I always ask, do you have 2 minutes? May I interrupt?

[ultracapper]

I totally forgot about Trackgod. That's right.

[woodbinepmi]

The next person who puts a tuff beat ticket on my form, where
I'm forced to look at it, is going to get laid out. I'm tired of taking the time to even digest how the numbers were arranged and pretending to commiserate.

It's becoming a real issue.
I have a friend like that, even when he has a good day. All I hear is why it wasn't better because some maiden claimer got beat for third and the tri would have been a lot more. We make fun of him to his face and he still does again the next day. We like the guy though.