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Dave Schwartz
02-28-2016, 03:41 AM
After all these years, it has finally hit me that I cannot do it all myself.

To that end, we have officially hired a programmer to help with the Pace Makes the Race software project!

It seems that "making a simpler handicapping tool" that is still professional grade is far more complex than making a complicated one.

I just have too many projects, including HSH v9, which is getting closer and closer. (Told you it was not being replaced.) In addition, I have a new cataloging system for our website that I am working on. This workload is just killing me, hence, the new hire.

I will still be in charge of the development, on a module-by-module basis. In other words, it is still my design, not someone else's.

mickey_arnold
02-28-2016, 06:41 AM
After all these years, it has finally hit me that I cannot do it all myself.

Don't sweat it Dave...

As the Texas saying goes "The time to kill a snake is when he raises his head."

DeltaLover
02-28-2016, 09:02 AM
After all these years, it has finally hit me that I cannot do it all myself.

To that end, we have officially hired a programmer to help with the Pace Makes the Race software project!

It seems that "making a simpler handicapping tool" that is still professional grade is far more complex than making a complicated one.

I just have too many projects, including HSH v9, which is getting closer and closer. (Told you it was not being replaced.) In addition, I have a new cataloging system for our website that I am working on. This workload is just killing me, hence, the new hire.

I will still be in charge of the development, on a module-by-module basis. In other words, it is still my design, not someone else's.

Dave,

developing commercial software is certainly not a one man show. There are several specialties that need to be addressed that is impossible for a single developer to meet all the criteria. You need at least a UX expert, a front end developer, a back end developer and possibly a DevOps and a project manager in order to produce software that can meet the criteria of a modern application.

More than this you also need to follow a management methodology that allows for quick and light deliverables. Pragmatic program, agile methodology and XP are the three dominant approaches when it comes to program management and they should be applied and eventually mastered for anyone who wants to be in the business of developing software.

Some links you might want to check:

http://agilemethodology.org/

http://www.extremeprogramming.org/

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PragmaticProgrammer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DevOps

thaskalos
02-28-2016, 03:01 PM
Will the hiring of additional staff affect the selling price of the software?

DeltaLover
02-28-2016, 03:59 PM
Will the hiring of additional staff affect the selling price of the software?

Yes, but it also will increase its ROI :)

Dave Schwartz
02-28-2016, 04:20 PM
Will the hiring of additional staff affect the selling price of the software?

No.

PaceAdvantage
02-28-2016, 08:21 PM
Will the hiring of additional staff affect the selling price of the software?Why? You planning on buying?

I have a feeling that answer would be a resounding NO given the way you have told us all how you handicap.

thaskalos
02-28-2016, 08:59 PM
Why? You planning on buying?

I have a feeling that answer would be a resounding NO given the way you have told us all how you handicap.
Yes...I am thinking of buying. This may shock you...but I have bought stuff from Dave in the past.

And I don't recall telling "you all" how I handicap. I may have mentioned something in passing about my handicapping methods...but I don't remember going into much detail about what I do. For your information, my main handicapping consideration is PACE...and Dave's new product might be EXACTLY what I am looking for.

Need I check with YOU before I make my purchase?

PaceAdvantage
02-28-2016, 09:07 PM
Sheesh man...chill...sorry I ASKED....

And yes, you pretty much HAVE advocated that you are primarily a PPs and pencil guy...not much of a software guy...over the years here.

thaskalos
02-28-2016, 09:22 PM
Sheesh man...chill...sorry I ASKED....

And yes, you pretty much HAVE advocated that you are primarily a PPs and pencil guy...not much of a software guy...over the years here.
YOU chill. Read your prior post again...and tell me what sort of reaction you were fishing for. I know that I have gotten into a disagreement or two with Dave on this board, but my question here was sincere...and it didn't deserve your snide remark. Such a remark might have been understandable coming from Dave...but not from you.

Does my posting here bother you, Mike? If so, then just tell me...and I'll do what I can to oblige your wishes.

Dave Schwartz
02-29-2016, 01:55 PM
Will hiring a programmer cause a rise in price?
No, in fact, probably the opposite because I cost out my time at substantially higher than a contract programmer.


I face several issues doing this.

1. Managing a programmer.
I have never managed a programming project before. I have contracted out small, complete projects, such as our ToteMaster tool, but hands-on management will be new.

I expect there will be a ramp-up period where the ratio of my time to his time is around 1:1. Hopefully, I will learn quickly.


2. Teaching the programmer horse racing concepts.
Aside from the overhead, I have a programmer who has only been to the races twice in his life. This could cause the ratio to actually be as low as 1:2 in the early going.


3. Making sure that I set aside time with the programmer 3-5 times per week, especially in the early days.

The most successful contracting job I ever did (with me as the contractor) was at a local internet start up about 16-17 years ago. The corporate culture was such that the entire development group (45 people) met every morning for a meeting where project heads spoke briefly about their progress and what the team was working on that day. It would last about 12 minutes on most days but occasionally as long as 30 minutes.

I was amazed at the collective cohesiveness at that little company. The corporate culture was amazing. After meeting team challenges, the company would often do something special, like a movie outing or catering lunch.

Eventually they died because upper management got so wrapped up in going public. Ultimately, it came down to switch the accounting system and go public, or continue with there product release (it was in beta with thousands of orders waiting to be fulfilled).

Their revenue-generation module was for their turnkey hardware/software solution to connect directly to their accounting system and none of the mainstream accounting packages could connect because of issues with SQL7 (at the time).

(My job was to write that connection between their device and the accounting system. It was there that I learned how to provision software systems remotely.)


Amazingly, they choose to scuttle the entire project and try to go public with just an accounting system and no product! That is when the idiots at the top fired the entire development team and kept the 250 call-center employees who were still taking orders for a non-existent product.

LOL - Shark Tank would have a field day.



4. Hiring a redundant programmer.
The paradigm I have opted for is the 2-seat-programmer model. That is, two programmers working together who both know and understand the code.

Think of it as one guy sits in the chair at a time while the other one watches.

This serves several purposes, among them the fact that if one programmer quits the other guy can take over until a new 2nd man can be found. At that time the 1st man trains the 2nd man.

Initially, I will be the 1st man, quickly transitioning the other guy into 1st chair, and ultimately replace myself as 2nd chair.

Dave Schwartz
02-29-2016, 02:09 PM
Delta,

Thank you for those links. I am familiar with all of them, especially the Pragmatic Programmer book and Agile. Because I have only rarely worked with teams, Scrum and other similar team-based approaches have never applied much to my work.

The reminder of PragProg has me a little interested because it has been many years since I read that book. (As I recall, it was about the time that I was doing the consulting gig I referenced above.)

Offering back, one of my favorite programming guys is Joel Spolsky (who I am sure you know of). Joel on Software (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/)

Unfortunately, he does not blog often enough.

PaceAdvantage
02-29-2016, 04:40 PM
YOU chill. Read your prior post again...and tell me what sort of reaction you were fishing for. I know that I have gotten into a disagreement or two with Dave on this board, but my question here was sincere...and it didn't deserve your snide remark. Such a remark might have been understandable coming from Dave...but not from you.

Does my posting here bother you, Mike? If so, then just tell me...and I'll do what I can to oblige your wishes.If it's understandable coming from Dave, then why not from me? I'm the grand observer here, and I am apt to chime in on just about anything...since I read every post.

Why do you have such a big problem with what I wrote, if even Dave himself would have been justified in responding in a similar manner?

And if you have something to say to me, just create a new thread and say it, or if you'd rather do it privately, then utilize PM. I can take it either way.

We could even go to off topic. Your choice. Something is simmering beneath the surface, but it's not on my end.

thaskalos
02-29-2016, 05:05 PM
If it's understandable coming from Dave, then why not from me? I'm the grand observer here, and I am apt to chime in on just about anything...since I read every post.

Why do you have such a big problem with what I wrote, if even Dave himself would have been justified in responding in a similar manner?



Because Dave and I have clashed before on this board...and I could see how he might have interpreted my question as having some sort of underhanded intent. But he DIDN'T interpret it in such a manner, and not only gave me a direct reply...but he also submitted a subsequent lengthy explanation surrounding my inquiry.

YOU, on the other hand, jumped in to ask me why I am inquiring about the price of Dave's product, since, in YOUR opinion, it is obvious that I have no intention of buying it...as if there was something wrong with me asking Dave such a question.

What about my question did you find objectionable, Mr. Administrator?

PaceAdvantage
02-29-2016, 05:27 PM
Quite simple. You pointed out yourself about your past clashes with Dave on here. I am not blind. I saw those too. Which led me to my questioning in this thread.

Very simple. So why the third degree?

Dave Schwartz
02-29-2016, 07:00 PM
Because Dave and I have clashed before on this board...and I could see how he might have interpreted my question as having some sort of underhanded intent. But he DIDN'T interpret it in such a manner, and not only gave me a direct reply...but he also submitted a subsequent lengthy explanation surrounding my inquiry.

Actually,

Actually, "he" DID interpret it that way.

I just chose not to comment.

thaskalos
02-29-2016, 07:48 PM
Actually,

Actually, "he" DID interpret it that way.

I just chose not to comment.
Then...perhaps it's best that I don't comment any further, as well.

banacek
02-29-2016, 09:39 PM
You know I've bought things from Dave as well and have usually got my money's worth, but asking a simple question such as will the price go up seems quite reasonable to me. I wondered the same thing. As well as when this software will actually be available. Is that a reasonable question?

I have my own home grown software, but (like Thask) I still planned on purchasing this as it looked like it might save me some time. The delays may well probably change my mind as my main period of racing is spring and summer. I had hoped that when Dave said the delivery date of Christmas was firm that it actually was firm. That would give me time to give it a good going over before deciding if it suits my purposes.

Dave Schwartz
02-29-2016, 10:46 PM
It was not an unreasonable question... that is why I gave a simple answer.

Eventually, I decided that it needed a more thorough answer.

thaskalos
02-29-2016, 10:56 PM
It was not an unreasonable question... that is why I gave a simple answer.

Eventually, I decided that it needed a more thorough answer.
If you thought that my question had an underhanded intent...then why the more thorough answer?

Dave Schwartz
02-29-2016, 11:10 PM
If you thought that my question had an underhanded intent...then why the more thorough answer?

I will not play this game with you.

thaskalos
02-29-2016, 11:32 PM
I will not play this game with you.

What game?

First you said that you considered my question underhanded...and then you said that it wasn't unreasonable. Which is it?

thaskalos
02-29-2016, 11:54 PM
No offense meant, Dave...honestly. I apologize for the intrusion in your thread. It won't happen again.

PaceAdvantage
03-01-2016, 01:33 AM
What game?

First you said that you considered my question underhanded...and then you said that it wasn't unreasonable. Which is it?Again, simple. Coming from someone without the history you yourself admit to having with Dave, it wasn't unreasonable.

None of this is rocket science.

thaskalos
03-01-2016, 03:17 AM
Again, simple. Coming from someone without the history you yourself admit to having with Dave, it wasn't unreasonable.

None of this is rocket science.

OK...I get it now. If some ELSE had asked that question...it would have been "reasonable". It was only "unreasonable" because I asked it.

You are right...it IS simple. My bad. :ThmbUp:

NorCalGreg
03-01-2016, 03:27 AM
OK...I get it now. If some ELSE had asked that question...it would have been "reasonable". It was only "unreasonable" because I asked it.

You are right...it IS simple. My bad. :ThmbUp:

If this is you three's version of a flame war---I gotta say, you'all got to work on that.

thaskalos
03-01-2016, 03:28 AM
If this is you three's version of a flame war---I gotta say, you'all got to work on that.

No flame war. I am still trying to understand what we are arguing about.

Red Knave
03-01-2016, 10:02 AM
I am still trying to understand what we are arguing about.

You call that arguing? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY)

lsosa54
03-27-2016, 12:09 AM
Any update on this software?

Dave Schwartz
03-27-2016, 02:19 AM
Yes. I hired a programmer and we're working on the software together.

Much bigger project than I expected.

Biggest issue is combining "no data" with "complete data."

betovernetcapper
03-27-2016, 03:30 AM
Do you ever find yourself missing the old Basic?

It lacks the glitz of today's programing tools, but you could do something on a lark. I've hired someone to do a program that I could have written in gutter basic.

Capper Al
03-27-2016, 01:03 PM
Do you ever find yourself missing the old Basic?

It lacks the glitz of today's programing tools, but you could do something on a lark. I've hired someone to do a program that I could have written in gutter basic.

No, don't miss BASIC. The problem is that there's much more to code than simple equations like second call + speed + beaten lengths, or whatever.

Boulder
03-27-2016, 10:19 PM
Any update on day of release?

Dave Schwartz
03-27-2016, 11:01 PM
No date whatsoever.

I am very disappointed about this.

Capper Al
03-28-2016, 10:36 AM
I might get my pace analysis finished before you after all. Coding just love it.

MPRanger
03-28-2016, 01:19 PM
I do. It's the only language I know how to program.

I often wished I could find a simple windows/mac programmable gui that I could write the code for. I have an idea that would make playing the races a lot easier for the race book crowd who get their data from the form or simulcast book.

Thought it thru for a long time and I know just what it would need to do.

But it's never gonna happen I guess. Mainly because I'm very happy with the software I'm using now and I'm not looking back and I'm not going to put any effort into something like that. I'm sure it would sell well.

punteray
03-28-2016, 02:02 PM
Checkout windev.com, they have a free version. I am now learning it. Great program.

Dave Schwartz
03-28-2016, 03:32 PM
I actually bought v20 of WinDev last year. Great language.

Capper Al
03-28-2016, 03:58 PM
I do. It's the only language I know how to program.

I often wished I could find a simple windows/mac programmable gui that I could write the code for. I have an idea that would make playing the races a lot easier for the race book crowd who get their data from the form or simulcast book.

Thought it thru for a long time and I know just what it would need to do.

But it's never gonna happen I guess. Mainly because I'm very happy with the software I'm using now and I'm not looking back and I'm not going to put any effort into something like that. I'm sure it would sell well.

Basic should do well. I'd output your data to CSV files and upload the data into an Excel spreadsheet for analysis.

Speed Figure
03-28-2016, 04:05 PM
I do. It's the only language I know how to program.

I often wished I could find a simple windows/mac programmable gui that I could write the code for. I have an idea that would make playing the races a lot easier for the race book crowd who get their data from the form or simulcast book.

Thought it thru for a long time and I know just what it would need to do.

But it's never gonna happen I guess. Mainly because I'm very happy with the software I'm using now and I'm not looking back and I'm not going to put any effort into something like that. I'm sure it would sell well.What software are you using?

MPRanger
03-28-2016, 04:13 PM
What software are you using?

Hi, I'm using Black Magic. I love it.

MPRanger
03-28-2016, 04:17 PM
Checkout windev.com, they have a free version. I am now learning it. Great program.

Thanx Punteray. I'll check it out. I see that Dave likes. If he likes it, it must be worth checking out.

Dave Schwartz
03-28-2016, 04:54 PM
Ranger, it is a LOT of money.

I think I got it on sale for around $1,200.

Capper Al
03-28-2016, 08:36 PM
Ranger, it is a LOT of money.

I think I got it on sale for around $1,200.

That's crazy. There are lots of open system free software available.

Dave Schwartz
03-28-2016, 09:59 PM
That's crazy. There are lots of open system free software available.

Not like this.

What ever you want to do is already built for you.

FTP? There's an example.

Email? Already done.

How about a complete contact management system?

I can tell you that the one I have used for so many decades cost me about $5k to get far less functionality.

Such is the price for professional-grade tools.

DeltaLover
03-29-2016, 09:01 AM
Not like this.

What ever you want to do is already built for you.

FTP? There's an example.

Email? Already done.

How about a complete contact management system?

I can tell you that the one I have used for so many decades cost me about $5k to get far less functionality.

Such is the price for professional-grade tools.

Why not use some dedicated email or FTP open source software instead of expecting everything to be embedded within some commercial solution?

betovernetcapper
03-29-2016, 07:01 PM
I do. It's the only language I know how to program.

I often wished I could find a simple windows/mac programmable gui that I could write the code for. I have an idea that would make playing the races a lot easier for the race book crowd who get their data from the form or simulcast book.

Thought it thru for a long time and I know just what it would need to do.

But it's never gonna happen I guess. Mainly because I'm very happy with the software I'm using now and I'm not looking back and I'm not going to put any effort into something like that. I'm sure it would sell well.


There is something about it Right? It's like with the old cars you could be a shade tree mechanic & fix simple problems yourself, while with today's cars your at the mercy of some professional. :)

jasperson
03-29-2016, 09:34 PM
There is something about it Right? It's like with the old cars you could be a shade tree mechanic & fix simple problems yourself, while with today's cars your at the mercy of some professional. :)
It's easier now because the computer output tells you what is wrong. You don't have to know anything just replace what the computer tell you to.