Songbird

[PowerUpPaynter]

Good Day,

Interested to see Songbird make her 3 year old debut Saturday. Do you think she will run in the Preakness if she wins the Oaks?

[Parson]

I don't think she is nominated yet and the owner has said he wants to keep her in company with fillies.

[letswastemoney]

Havre de Grace did try the Breeders' Cup Classic for the same owner.

If Songbird stays at the same level, and stays in training, maybe next year she will run against males.

[andtheyreoff]

Havre de Grace did try the Breeders' Cup Classic for the same owner.

If Songbird stays at the same level, and stays in training, maybe next year she will run against males.

Too bad that won't do anything for racing on the mainstream sports scene.

Her running in the Derby, on the other hand, would be national news. Especially in the year after American Pharoah, that would be a huge boost for racing. It builds momentum.

[Kash$]

Scary

[azeri98]

Scary
Yup!

[bks]

Think she wins the Lewis for fun if she's in there.

[Secondbest]

Think she wins the Lewis for fun if she's in there.
YUP

[azeri98]

I would try her in the Santa Anita derby, see how she does and go from there, she is already in the Oaks.

[Grits]

Too bad that won't do anything for racing on the mainstream sports scene.

Her running in the Derby, on the other hand, would be national news. Especially in the year after American Pharoah, that would be a huge boost for racing. It builds momentum.

Eight Belles running in the Derby was national news for this owner as well. It didn't, as we recall, end well. As talented as Songbird is, I would be surprised if that past heartbreak doesn't still burn.

[Rex Phinney]

I was there today, she belongs in the derby. I know the owner might have bad memories, but unless Songbird ever faces Beholder fillies will never touch her.

Songbird wasn't even warmed up today, looked asleep going into the gates...

[Rex Phinney]

In case it hasn't been pointed out, her daddy threw another pretty good filly...

[MutuelClerk]

Eight Belles running in the Derby was national news for this owner as well. It didn't, as we recall, end well. As talented as Songbird is, I would be surprised if that past heartbreak doesn't still burn.

100% agree Grits. Too much heartache.

[Rex Phinney]

I understand the past, but as it is Songbird is too talented to not give a Derby shot. She is going to go unchallenged as long as they run her against fillies.

She could for example win the San Felipe easily and probably qualify.

[Kash$]

Songbird Beyer 87..

[zico20]

I understand the past, but as it is Songbird is too talented to not give a Derby shot. She is going to go unchallenged as long as they run her against fillies.

She could for example win the San Felipe easily and probably qualify.

If she continues to crush fillies on the west coast hopefully they will put her up against the boys, or at the very least take her to New York to run against older fillies and mares. I just do not want to see another Zenyatta scripture where she is sheltered and stays out west.

[PowerUpPaynter]

Songbird Beyer 87..


an 87? jeez... Beyers just keep mattering less and less to me. Past year feel like they have been incosistant.

[bks]

Owner is on record that he won't run against the boys this spring. Hope he changes his mind. She's a monster.

[davew]

I understand the past, but as it is Songbird is too talented to not give a Derby shot. She is going to go unchallenged as long as they run her against fillies.

She could for example win the San Felipe easily and probably qualify.


I hope so, on 9/26 I put $10 on Songbird and Nyquist in the Derby for $1500 and $280 after their impressive CA races.

[classhandicapper]

She was visually very impressive but that was about as easy a spot as you are going to find. I'm not sure I know more about her now than I did last year. If she was mine I'd watch the male preps and make a judgement from there.

[ebcorde]

she's the new Royal Delta.

But what I was impressed with was Hoppertunity I got a hunch the Horse found a Jockey he likes to go to war with.

[Donttellmeshowme#2]

Very easy spot yesterday. Interesting to see what the connections decide to do later on.

[Ghostzapper04]

Rick Porter said after the race on TVG that she'll be pointed to the SA Oaks.

I need to see more from her as a 3yo to believe that she's a Derby contender. That field was a croc.

[f2tornado]

That's my opinion with Smokey Image as well. It's easy to look good against turtles. I do think Songbird is for real but there are a couple up and coming fillies out east that could be up to the challenge.

[cj]

she's the new Royal Delta.

But what I was impressed with was Hoppertunity I got a hunch the Horse found a Jockey he likes to go to war with.

He beat Imperative with a lucky bob and you were impressed?

[Kash$]

an 87? jeez... Beyers just keep mattering less and less to me. Past year feel like they have been incosistant.


Need not worry Beyer will adjust midweek...Then he will go on Steve Byk and explain the adjustment. :)

[Grits]

I didn't see her race, I figured she got a 145 the way the masses were speaking on FB, still an hour after the run. (Gentlemen, this is why I don't talk to these people...they're limited.)

One even wrote in ALL CAPS----I'm going to be VERY ANGRY if Songbird's connections don't give her the opportunity to start in the Derby, and if she wins, to go on for the Triple Crown bid.

To say the least, this one was really special.:lol:

[dilanesp]

If she continues to crush fillies on the west coast hopefully they will put her up against the boys, or at the very least take her to New York to run against older fillies and mares. I just do not want to see another Zenyatta scripture where she is sheltered and stays out west.

You mean another Rachel Alexandra scripture where she is sheltered and stays back east.

Zenyatta ran at Oaklawn and Churchill. While she was sheltered, she wasn't the poster child of sheltering. Her inferior New York rival was.

[andtheyreoff]

You mean another Rachel Alexandra scripture where she is sheltered and stays back east.

Zenyatta ran at Oaklawn and Churchill. While she was sheltered, she wasn't the poster child of sheltering. Her inferior New York rival was.

Running against male horses three times in one year, including older males once, is being sheltered? News to me.

[f2tornado]

I know Beyer is far from the be all end all but Rachel posted the highest BSF of any North American horse in 2009. On that metric, every other horse that year was inferior. Sheltered isn't paying $100k to get supplemented in the Preakness. She was great, Zen was great.

[Rex Phinney]

Songbird has already been to Keeneland to run. Let's not turn this into a 7 year old argument (again)

[Fager Fan]

You mean another Rachel Alexandra scripture where she is sheltered and stays back east.

Zenyatta ran at Oaklawn and Churchill. While she was sheltered, she wasn't the poster child of sheltering. Her inferior New York rival was.

That's an insane statement.

[zico20]

You mean another Rachel Alexandra scripture where she is sheltered and stays back east.

Zenyatta ran at Oaklawn and Churchill. While she was sheltered, she wasn't the poster child of sheltering. Her inferior New York rival was.

You do realize that Zenyatta in her first 19 races only left California to run in the Apple Blossom twice. The only reason she ran at CD was the BC. If the BC was at SA, she would have never crossed the Mississippi River.

I would like to see Songbird, if she wins her next race, to try the SA Derby and find out how good she is or can be.

BTW, I went to Wikipedia and there is not an article on her. I think someone should start one up.

[ebcorde]

He beat Imperative with a lucky bob and you were impressed?

huh? Hell yeah! he lost ground on the turn. recovered and won. Hoppertunity always had heart. I noticed a different Horse.

[Hoops McCann]

looks like a Rachel Alexandra redux. the best 3 year old not running in the derby. :bang:

[classhandicapper]

I know the males haven't run any really fast races yet, but I think it's too early to write them off as clearly inferior to Songbird. Fillies mature sooner. So the typical gap between fillies and males is narrower at 2 and early in the year at 3 than it is when they are all fully mature. The males will eventually start developing faster. She's clearly a much better filly than the males compared to their respective averages, but they might catch up to her and even pass her in the next few months.

[Redboard]

It would certainly raise the level of excitement. Three fillies have won the Kentucky Derby. It’s time to move on from Eight Belles, who never ran against males. The new point system prevents that. I think Songbird would have a hell of a shot and would be great for the sport, but she would have to get the points first.

[Ghostzapper04]

Making it nearly impossible for a filly to take on the boys for the first time in the KY Derby is the worst aspect of the points system. I don't know why Churchill hasn't proposed a remedy to this yet since a filly versus males equals ratings/interest.

[Grits]

Making it nearly impossible for a filly to take on the boys for the first time in the KY Derby is the worst aspect of the points system. I don't know why Churchill hasn't proposed a remedy to this yet since a filly versus males equals ratings/interest.

I would be surprised if a remedy is forthcoming. Eight Belles, when one really thinks about it, was a bad, bad day for Churchill Downs. I'd be surprised if they're interested in going for 2. Though its known that it can be done with great success, these aren't people who welcome such risks today. JMHO

Edit: spelling

[cj]

huh? Hell yeah! he lost ground on the turn. recovered and won. Hoppertunity always had heart. I noticed a different Horse.

I like him too, was glad to see him get up for a change. I was just checking if you were firm in your convictions. :)

[Ghostzapper04]

I would be surprised if a remedy is forthcoming. Eight Belles, when one really thinks about it, was a bad, bad day for Churchill Downs. I'd be surprised if they're interested in going for 2. Though its known that it can be done with great success, these aren't people who welcome such risks today. JMHO

Edit: spelling

Agreed but the fillies shouldn't be limited. If the only reason they're tentative about having another filly in the race is b/c of the Eight Belles factor, which is that they can sustain a catastrophic injury in the race, that's absurd. If you were truly worried about injury, and wanted to take preventative measures, the first would be limiting the field to 12 to 14 starters. The 20 horse field often makes for a collision course.

[Grits]

Agreed but the fillies shouldn't be limited. If the only reason they're tentative about having another filly in the race is b/c of the Eight Belles factor, which is that they can sustain a catastrophic injury in the race, that's absurd. If you were truly worried about injury, and wanted to take preventative measures, the first would be limiting the field to 12 to 14 starters. The 20 horse field often makes for a collision course.

Very much agree. And, welcome to Pace Advantage, Ghostzapper04! :)

[Ghostzapper04]

Very much agree. And, welcome to Pace Advantage, Ghostzapper04! :)

Thank you!

[dilanesp]

Running against male horses three times in one year, including older males once, is being sheltered? News to me.

Ducking the Breeders' Cup Classic (or ANY Breeders' Cup race) is sheltered. Not running outside of the East is REALLY sheltered (especially given the best female horse in racing history was running in California at the time).

She ran against Macho Again in New York. Barely beating crap colts in a Breeders' Cup prep race, and then not running in the Breeders' Cup itself, is no more impressive than Zenyatta barely beating crap fillies. I give her credit for the Preakness, but her career after that was nothing more than "how can we stay away from Zenyatta?" whereas Zenyatta's owners did, eventually, take some big chances and she beat better fields than RA ever ran against.

[horses4courses]

Songbird after her work this morning:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbMeHuTUUAAAMm_.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

Nice pic! Thanks for sharing!

[Fager Fan]

Ducking the Breeders' Cup Classic (or ANY Breeders' Cup race) is sheltered. Not running outside of the East is REALLY sheltered (especially given the best female horse in racing history was running in California at the time).

She ran against Macho Again in New York. Barely beating crap colts in a Breeders' Cup prep race, and then not running in the Breeders' Cup itself, is no more impressive than Zenyatta barely beating crap fillies. I give her credit for the Preakness, but her career after that was nothing more than "how can we stay away from Zenyatta?" whereas Zenyatta's owners did, eventually, take some big chances and she beat better fields than RA ever ran against.

I truly don't mean offense, but one had to be so blindly biased that they're willing to make themselves look stupid to make this argument.

A 3yo filly running in the Oaks, then 2 weeks later in the Preakness, and adding the Haskell and finally beating Older Males in the Woodward is very, very tough, and the toughest schedule we've seen of any female in many decades.

Plenty of others skipped the crap races the BC became when it was run on synthetic crap.

Both Zenyatta and Rachel were great fillies but in different ways. Both had their faults/weaknesses. Saying stupid things about either just makes the person who says it look stupid.

[ultracapper]

Great picture. She's a tough looking little lady.

[andtheyreoff]

Ducking the Breeders' Cup Classic (or ANY Breeders' Cup race) is sheltered. Not running outside of the East is REALLY sheltered (especially given the best female horse in racing history was running in California at the time).

Arkansas and Louisiana are on the east coast? News to me.

She ran against Macho Again in New York. Barely beating crap colts in a Breeders' Cup prep race, and then not running in the Breeders' Cup itself, is no more impressive than Zenyatta barely beating crap fillies. I give her credit for the Preakness, but her career after that was nothing more than "how can we stay away from Zenyatta?" whereas Zenyatta's owners did, eventually, take some big chances and she beat better fields than RA ever ran against.

Yeah, a three-year-old filly winning the Woodward is totally comparable to winning the Clement Hirsch and the Vanity three years in a row... :rolleyes:

[ReplayRandall]

Songbird after her work this morning:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbMeHuTUUAAAMm_.jpg

Why can't most of your posts be as great as this one... ;)

[Stillriledup]

Ducking the Breeders' Cup Classic (or ANY Breeders' Cup race) is sheltered. Not running outside of the East is REALLY sheltered (especially given the best female horse in racing history was running in California at the time).

She ran against Macho Again in New York. Barely beating crap colts in a Breeders' Cup prep race, and then not running in the Breeders' Cup itself, is no more impressive than Zenyatta barely beating crap fillies. I give her credit for the Preakness, but her career after that was nothing more than "how can we stay away from Zenyatta?" whereas Zenyatta's owners did, eventually, take some big chances and she beat better fields than RA ever ran against.

Rachel was incredible in the Woodward, she was hounded the entire way and held off a big closer who was sweeping w momentum.

Rachel should have raced against Z, why they never met is anyone's guess.

[RacingFan1992]

Two undefeated Champion Two Year Olds in the same year with each returning as three year olds. Does this not sound familiar? Wonder how many people are gonna scream for a match race? I don't see the point.

[andtheyreoff]

Two undefeated Champion Two Year Olds in the same year with each returning as three year olds. Does this not sound familiar? Wonder how many people are gonna scream for a match race? I don't see the point.

I'll put the over/under on the amount of people who want a match race as 0.

[RacingFan1992]

Yup. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[horses4courses]

Nice pic! Thanks for sharing!

Sure thing.
Saw it on Twitter and had to post.

[classhandicapper]

I know the males haven't run any really fast races yet, but I think it's too early to write them off as clearly inferior to Songbird. Fillies mature sooner. So the typical gap between fillies and males is narrower at 2 and early in the year at 3 than it is when they are all fully mature. The males will eventually start developing faster. She's clearly a much better filly than the males compared to their respective averages, but they might catch up to her and even pass her in the next few months.

Nyquist with a 101 Beyer for the San Vincente.

He may not be a 10F horse, but people that were trashing him because of a few slow races didn't watch the Juvenile or his other races very closely. He was obviously very fast. The question is how far he will go.

[davew]

She is running again on Saturday. The guy on the DRF webcast this morning showed with the DRF formulator how her slowest race is faster than the fastest race of any competitor. Should be a big negative show pool....

[SecretAgentMan]

She is running again on Saturday. The guy on the DRF webcast this morning showed with the DRF formulator how her slowest race is faster than the fastest race of any competitor. Should be a big negative show pool....




She should run against the boys, no question about it!