A very slow time of year

[Mandrake]

Let's see, an ESPN nitwit who called a race, some dump track in Arizona, a 32 year old horse (god bless), a 95 year old guy (god bless), and what the sunshine millions was called 10 years ago. Oh boy.

[Stillriledup]

If its slow, why not make it fast? Why not post something fresh and unique that we all can read?

[EMD4ME]

Portland Meadows is at risk to lose $58,000 today if only 1 person hit's their jackpot $100,000 guaranteed pick 6. $27,000 or so was carried over into today.

2 races in. $19.80 and $3.80 so far. Still time to see if 1 person scopes it.

$20,000 wagered today. .20 is the base.

[EMD4ME]

If its slow, why not make it fast? Why not post something fresh and unique that we all can read?

I'm down to discuss some interesting rides and terrible steward decisions :D :D :D

Oooops. You said fresh and unique. :lol: :lol:

(Silly me, I only focus on what impacts my bottom line)

[Mandrake]

Don't get me wrong, I do like stirring the pot, however sometimes I feel that there are irrelevant posts (you can include this one but it was not meant to be) just to see how many people reply. Honestly, all you had to do is type in Sunshine Millions in google search and all your questions would have been answered. Many posts are provocative, thought searching and with inside knowledge. Many are not. Kenny Mayne is irrelevant, Rillito Park is irrelevant. Just my opinion.

[thaskalos]

Don't get me wrong, I do like stirring the pot, however sometimes I feel that there are irrelevant posts (you can include this one but it was not meant to be) just to see how many people reply. Honestly, all you had to do is type in Sunshine Millions in google search and all your questions would have been answered. Many posts are provocative, thought searching and with inside knowledge. Many are not. Kenny Mayne is irrelevant, Rillito Park is irrelevant. Just my opinion.

To the vast majority of the sports fans in this country...horse racing as a WHOLE is irrelevant as well. :)

[Mandrake]

I would love to know how many people actually bet a race at Rillito (if you can bet it). Who cares? Yes, I know people could lose jobs, but all people lose jobs if you work somewhere that never makes money. Maybe more tracks should close and let the strong survive. Maybe racing would be better off in the long run.

[Stillriledup]

I would love to know how many people actually bet a race at Rillito (if you can bet it). Who cares? Yes, I know people could lose jobs, but all people lose jobs if you work somewhere that never makes money. Maybe more tracks should close and let the strong survive. Maybe racing would be better off in the long run.

I've never HEARD of Rilito much bet a race there.

[Stillriledup]

I'm down to discuss some interesting rides and terrible steward decisions :D :D :D

Oooops. You said fresh and unique. :lol: :lol:

(Silly me, I only focus on what impacts my bottom line)

That stuff is fresh and unique because its something that happened recently and it's unique because you're one of a small select group who actually cares about the integrity of the game. :ThmbUp:

[Mandrake]

SRU, I look at it this way. It would be like the NFL going from 32 teams to 50 just so they could give inferior athletes jobs. Are we gamblers or are we sportsmen? There are too many tracks, the product in many is inferior, and only a true gambler would bet on that sh**

[EMD4ME]

I would love to know how many people actually bet a race at Rillito (if you can bet it). Who cares? Yes, I know people could lose jobs, but all people lose jobs if you work somewhere that never makes money. Maybe more tracks should close and let the strong survive. Maybe racing would be better off in the long run.

IMO, it doesn't matter if 5 or 500 new fans are created via Rillito. If 500 more people go to their local track or their ADW and bet into pools that I am wagering in, the better the chance that I have to make money. Just my 2 cents.

Plus from a fan perspective, we need new blood. No horses from Rilito are showing up at NYRA anytime in the next 50 years. So, what's it hurt to have X additional new fans born, X amount of additional owners in the game?

[Mandrake]

EMD, great competition and great racing, create new fans, i.e. AP. Rats at Rillito do not create new fans.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, great competition and great racing, create new fans, i.e. AP. Rats at Rillito do not create new fans.

I hear you Mandrake but.....

Do you know where I was created? (as a horse fan, not otherwise :lol: )








Charles Town Races 5 miles long, doo dah , doo dah...

And the pig pen, otherwise known as Penn National.


Without the small track, many a huge fan or huge horseplayer might not exist.

[Mandrake]

EMD, I get you, however, it is like saying I fell in love with basketball when I was 8 when I played in such and such youth center. We don't go to the youth center games anymore, we watch the pros.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, I get you, however, it is like saying I fell in love with basketball when I was 8 when I played in such and such youth center. We don't go to the youth center games anymore, we watch the pros.

Not really buddy. Here's why. I grew up in Rockville MD. If there no tracks there when I was 3/4 years old, I never would've had the memory of rooting for my horsie at that age.

When I came to NY, I made it a point to know which tracks ran where as a little kid. Yes, I know, I'm psycho :lol: :lol: :lol:

If there were no tracks to create any memories at a young age (and to fall in love) odds are I would never know NYRA exists (as there zero to little advertisement of a race track in NYC).

All it takes is 1. 1 fan who found the game at Rillito. 1 fan who grows up to be rich. Buys 1 horse who turns out to be a decent sire. Makes some money and buys 100 more. That same fan probably brings 100 people to the track over time.

Call me pollyanna but that's how I see it.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, I get you, however, it is like saying I fell in love with basketball when I was 8 when I played in such and such youth center. We don't go to the youth center games anymore, we watch the pros.

On a seperate note, I love Portland Meadows. Made a small play in their pick 5, hit it.

They close that cheap track, I'm pissed.

Played 4 dime sups for a total of $80 bucks, just got back $800 with those super bets.

I love cheap tracks.

Would rather bet them then the Irad clan.

[Mandrake]

EMD, yes, you are Pollyanna, but a good dude. I'm in NY. First round is on me.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Different strokes for different folks. I grew up on harness, especially at Freehold. Did they have the best races, not at all, but it brought me into the game and I still enjoy it there. Same with Monmouth, their everyday card isnt great, but I love it all the same.

While you may not care about Rillito Park, or plenty others on this board, some do. Yes you can wager on the races there, and in October the signal might be exported. Its unique in that it is mostly run by students here at the U of A, and provides some real world experience for them. Baffert got his first training win here, and Pletcher came through here along with a whos whos list of industry executives. While I do think some contraction is needed, Rillito has its place.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, yes, you are Pollyanna, but a good dude. I'm in NY. First round is on me.

Deal !!!

2nd n 3rd on me though :jump:

At Big A all the time. PM me when you'd like.

[Mandrake]

MPJ, I will always respect you (love the name) and I'm originally from Jersey and was weaned on Monmouth. But it is time to face facts, from a business, and truly caring point of view, most of these (bush?) tracks and so called bush tracks disguising as tracks probably have half the population that shouldn't even be allowed onto the track. Close them all. The survivors only get better, full fields, great completion, greater incentive to make a buck. So what, we can't make a bet Monday through Wednesday. Unfortunately we can't see what it would be like on the other side of that scenario. So what, we can't make a bet Monday through Wednesday. Does it really matter?

[Mandrake]

EMD, I'm in Staten Island, this could be trouble, I'm close and like JD!

[Tom]

SRU, I look at it this way. It would be like the NFL going from 32 teams to 50 just so they could give inferior athletes jobs. Are we gamblers or are we sportsmen? There are too many tracks, the product in many is inferior, and only a true gambler would bet on that sh**

That is how the NFL got to 32 teams.
Far too many teams today.
We only need half that many.
Used to be you could see teams go at it every year, now, no so much.
Much better product 40 years ago. Much better.

[castaway01]

MPJ, I will always respect you (love the name) and I'm originally from Jersey and was weaned on Monmouth. But it is time to face facts, from a business, and truly caring point of view, most of these (bush?) tracks and so called bush tracks disguising as tracks probably have half the population that shouldn't even be allowed onto the track. Close them all. The survivors only get better, full fields, great completion, greater incentive to make a buck. So what, we can't make a bet Monday through Wednesday. Unfortunately we can't see what it would be like on the other side of that scenario. So what, we can't make a bet Monday through Wednesday. Does it really matter?

None of this is new though---in the past there were a lot MORE tiny tracks in out-of-the-way places running. The only difference is that in the simulcast world, you know about the small tracks running 2000 miles away. But don't worry, there are actually a lot FEWER of them than there used to be, and if things keep going the way they are, in 20 years they'll all be shut down. You'll be save from having to worry if a bush track running will ruin your day.

[castaway01]

That is how the NFL got to 32 teams.
Far too many teams today.
We only need half that many.
Used to be you could see teams go at it every year, now, no so much.
Much better product 40 years ago. Much better.

Except with racetracks, it would be like there were 150 teams 50 years ago and now there are 32. We're not adding bush tracks all over the country, we're losing them and the number of races run each year is declining rapidly. So, the reality in horse racing is the opposite of your example.

[Tom]

You think we need more races?

[Mandrake]

I really don't see what is wrong when an industry gets "leaner and meaner". Companies do it all the time for their shareholders. The brightest do it well. Is horse racing a sport or an industry? Well, those involved directly call it an industry all the time when they are looking for dollars. But they never generate enough to keep their part of the industry viable. Suffolk is a great example, the owner loses millions every year, they used the industry angle to try to get money, the process said no, the owner said I have had enough, and bye bye Suffolk. I have never heard one person ever say, boy, do I miss Suffolk downs. And the trainers and owners are survivors. They shipped to Tampa, Laurel wherever. And it made their lower class racing better because fields were bigger. The ones that couldn't survive probably had such inferior stock and a reason for Suffolk downs to remain open shouldn't have been to let these horses have places to race.

[Stillriledup]

That is how the NFL got to 32 teams.
Far too many teams today.
We only need half that many.
Used to be you could see teams go at it every year, now, no so much.
Much better product 40 years ago. Much better.

The one thing that horse racing and sports have in common is that the games have gotten more fragile. There seems to be a lot more injuries in pro sports these days as well as wildly inconsistent play, even from the top teams, with horses they seem to not be as sturdy as the racers from decades ago. Why the human and equine 'breeds' are getting weaker is anyone's guess but I do agree that the horse racing and sports products were much better back in the day. Seems like we are trending the wrong way in this regard.

[therussmeister]

Not many professional sports can manage without a minor league system. I have my doubts horse racing is one of them. Tracks like Rillito have essentially no impact on the biggest tracks, shutting the small tracks down will not improve the biggest track's fortune.

[ebcorde]

Not really buddy. Here's why. I grew up in Rockville MD. If there no tracks there when I was 3/4 years old, I never would've had the memory of rooting for my horsie at that age.

When I came to NY, I made it a point to know which tracks ran where as a little kid. Yes, I know, I'm psycho :lol: :lol: :lol:

If there were no tracks to create any memories at a young age (and to fall in love) odds are I would never know NYRA exists (as there zero to little advertisement of a race track in NYC).

All it takes is 1. 1 fan who found the game at Rillito. 1 fan who grows up to be rich. Buys 1 horse who turns out to be a decent sire. Makes some money and buys 100 more. That same fan probably brings 100 people to the track over time.

Call me pollyanna but that's how I see it.

Rockville? I worked in Gaithersburg for 7 years, have Aunts and Uncles living in Rockville now. Rockville, probably a lot different today than in your younger days

was Laurel, Pimlico, Rosecroft, Timonium Fair or Charlestown your spot?


when I had work assignments away from home I would always try to get a
city that had a racetrack. Atlanta? "oh why don't you go" Chicago? "i'll take that"

I don't know where Rillito is or the type of racing, will look it up. Racing is great if your successful and can manage it.

[EMD4ME]

Rockville? I worked in Gaithersburg for 7 years, have Aunts and Uncles living in Rockville now. Rockville, probably a lot different today than in your younger days

was Laurel, Pimlico, Rosecroft, Timonium Fair or Charlestown your spot?


when I had work assignments away from home I would always try to get a
city that had a racetrack. Atlanta? "oh why don't you go" Chicago? "i'll take that"

I don't know where Rillito is or the type of racing, will look it up. Racing is great if your successful and can manage it.

Dad took me to Chuck Town a million times. Penn National, Bowie was closed. Shenandoah downs was closed. Went to Delaware. Timonium. Pimlico and Laurel. No harness. Except a trip up to Liberty Bell or Pocono once each.

Without live racing, no new fans are born in these small towns. Less money gets bet at the SPA and Delmar etc. That's why I hope Atlanta gets a track. That's thousands of new possible horseplayers.

[lamboguy]

Not many professional sports can manage without a minor league system. I have my doubts horse racing is one of them. Tracks like Rillito have essentially no impact on the biggest tracks, shutting the small tracks down will not improve the biggest track's fortune.i thought about that last weekend, what i can say is that when you go to the sales these days there are plenty of buyers that come from places like South Korea, Singapore, Viet Nam, Poland, Russia. some are buying the bottom rung horses, the asians are spending in the $25k-$30k range. the problem will come up when they stop buying cheap horses and go to the ones that are $50k and up. as it is, the horses that they are paying $30,000 for, i was buying for $10,000 5 years ago.

[Mandrake]

EMD, that is the fallacy of this small track create fans nonsense. American Pharaoh created more fans in one year than these minor tracks will create in the next 20. Do I have the stats? No. Do you have the stats that all these minor tracks create all these fans? No. But I would bet my money and yours on the former.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

EMD, that is the fallacy of this small track create fans nonsense. American Pharaoh created more fans in one year than these minor tracks will create in the next 20. Do I have the stats? No. Do you have the stats that all these minor tracks create all these fans? No. But I would bet my money and yours on the former.
Small tracks create a breeding industry in a respective state. I'm pretty sure Arizona isn't going to run races for New Mexico breds. The tracks create, at the very least, hundreds of jobs, from trainers to jockeys to grooms and hotwalkers, to veterinarians, plus people that work for the track. They serve as an apprentice ground for budding track announcers. Well known announcer, the late Luke Kruytbosch, got his start calling Arizona Fair races before moving on the Turf Paradise and Churchill Downs. Bill Downes who calls at Indiana previously called races at Arapahoe Park. The list goes on. Some of the states that don't have racing also don't have OTBs or allow betting through ADWs (e.g., Hawaii). Colorado only allows betting other tracks because they run a live meet. If they didn't race 39 days, no betting out of state tracks. It's easy to dog the small tracks and assume they won't be missed, but there are a lot of people who would miss those tracks.

[Mandrake]

Halv, and anyone else, when you can honestly tell me that you have invested a substanial amount in these minor tracks because you honestly believe how important they are and how you think it is a great investment, then I will listen. Convince me it is not wasted taxpayer, government largess, and then I will be the first to say I was wrong.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Halv, and anyone else, when you can honestly tell me that you have invested a substanial amount in these minor tracks because you honestly believe how important they are and how you think it is a great investment, then I will listen. Convince me it is not wasted taxpayer, government largess, and then I will be the first to say I was wrong.
I already gave you reasons for them to exist. More robust breeding industry, hundreds and perhaps thousands of jobs, and a place for announcers, racing officials, trainers, and others to learn their craft. I already pointed out where some announcers got a start. Where do you think D. Wayne Lukas and Bob Baffert started? Not every trainer gets an apprencticeship with the Toddster. Apparently all that's not real enough for you.

Early in my career, I made a substantial amount of money at Centennial Race Track at a time when your choice was (a) bet a local track or (b) travel to another state with a track that was open. I certainly have fond memories of a track few people have ever heard about. The trick is to remember two things. One, the money at small tracks comes in the same color and denominations as at other tracks, and two, being a big fish in a small pond can be profitable. You may have to adjust your wagering strategy, but like Wal-Mart you can overpower the small fish. I had a pari-mutuel strategy that allowed me to regularly take down superfecta pools for the simple reason coverage was not as broad as it is at larger tracks. If you look at certain small tracks, supers will often play to an "all" in the fourth slot, something that almost never happens at larger tracks. Even if you are only taking down $1,400, you can often get 15-20/1 for your money. That's not a reason for those tracks to exist, but you can certainly exploit them if you want.

Taxpayer/government largesse? You're going to have to explain that one since funding for necessary oversight is normally paid for out of the take. Although taxpayers do support racing, since they are paying 15-30% take every time they make a bet.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Also keep in mind that a triple crown winner took almost forty years to come around again. If we decided to close smaller tracks and wait for this to happen again, we could miss a whole generation.

If you dont believe in it, that is fine. To each their own. Like I said I do believe we need contraction, but some tracks have a unique purpose, Rillito being one of them. There were several reasons mentioned above so no need to rehash them.

[Mandrake]

Rillito's "winter meet" is 12 racing days. They need 3 million for improvements. I think the best thing is that UA uses it for their curriculum. But you can't honestly tell me this is viable operation when it hardly operates.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

They will be profitable, not blockbuster but they will make money.

Mandrake if you find yourself at Monmouth or Saratoga this summer, let me know. we can meet up for a drink and shoot the breeze

[Mandrake]

I assumed you relocated to Arizona based on your passion for that track. Bad assumption. Good for you because if you have that passion from 3000 miles away you are a noble guy. Will do on the MP or Sar invite.

[EMD4ME]

Halv, and anyone else, when you can honestly tell me that you have invested a substanial amount in these minor tracks because you honestly believe how important they are and how you think it is a great investment, then I will listen. Convince me it is not wasted taxpayer, government largess, and then I will be the first to say I was wrong.

It may seem small but I wagered $2500 into Sam Houston last night.

I love certain small tracks. Sam Houston. Portland Meadows. Emerald Downs.

[EMD4ME]

EMD, that is the fallacy of this small track create fans nonsense. American Pharaoh created more fans in one year than these minor tracks will create in the next 20. Do I have the stats? No. Do you have the stats that all these minor tracks create all these fans? No. But I would bet my money and yours on the former.

I hear your point.

Please don't forget, small tracks also help maintain existing fans. If Arapahoe closed, all 20-30-40 year horseplayers would be unable to bet on the SPA/DEL etc going forward as ADW wagering would be non existent.

Small tracks serve a purpose as simulcast centers. Big tracks don't mind getting those money into the pools.

[Mandrake]

Sam Houston is a different animal. They got the royal screw job because of a couple of shady politicians who seem to be in the palm of the casino business. And the casino's are in another state no less.

[Mandrake]

Yes they do. But if their focus is on that, then eventually they can't win. It's too easy to stay at home and make your bets. Once the old crew die off, simulcasting centers will as well.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I assumed you relocated to Arizona based on your passion for that track. Bad assumption. Good for you because if you have that passion from 3000 miles away you are a noble guy. Will do on the MP or Sar invite.

Trust me, the only reason I am here is for the masters in race track management program here at the U of A. Otherwise I never would have left jersey. Although with the 3 feet of snow they are getting at the moment, it being 80 degrees here is nice.

[Mandrake]

Joe, you don't know, 2 feet + in SI. States of emergency, you are allowed to laugh at idiots like me.

[Track Collector]

Rillito's "winter meet" is 12 racing days. They need 3 million for improvements. I think the best thing is that UA uses it for their curriculum. But you can't honestly tell me this is viable operation when it hardly operates.

Rillito "only" averages about 4,000 to 5,000 fans each race day. Maybe if you visited there you might have a different appreciation. (I've been there at least six times of the past few years and I live 2500 miles away. When visiting I was specifically there for the races and nothing else.).

There is a whole unknown world of "bush" tracks that I suspect you would turn up your nose at. For me, I LOVE seeking out and visiting as many of these small/unique racing venues as possible. Stamp collectors collect stamps. Track Collectors collect track (visits). I would choose most of these places any day over the well-known places like Saratoga and Del Mar. Anyway, to each his/her own. :)

[EMD4ME]

[QUOTE=Track Collector]Rillito "only" averages about 4,000 to 5,000 fans each race day.

That's more than BELMONT GETS (in attendance), 90% of the racing days in October!

Shoot, that's more than Belmont gets on any WED, THUR or FRI in May or June!

I'm jealous!

[Mandrake]

First of all, you don't even know me, I don't thumb my nose at anything or anyone. I wasn't brought up like that and wouldn't insult my parents by turning into someone like that. I'm bringing up a discussion, a debate, but like too many people today, you make it and take it personal.

[Mandrake]

Also, sometimes to get discussions going you have to stir the pot, bait the hook. Do I think RP is a dump and want to see it go out of business? That is for you to decide, but a good discussion got going, and good points were made and people got involved by calling it a dump. Was it the most polite way of starting a debate? No. But it seemed to have worked.

[thaskalos]

While I do think some contraction is needed, Rillito has its place.
If Rillito "has its place"...then, what sort of "contraction" would you recommend?

[Track Collector]

First of all, you don't even know me, I don't thumb my nose at anything or anyone. I wasn't brought up like that and wouldn't insult my parents by turning into someone like that. I'm bringing up a discussion, a debate, but like too many people today, you make it and take it personal.

I was not trying to make it personal.......only responding to your (implied) opinion that places like Rillito were not worth keeping around. Sorry to use the phrase "thumbing your nose", as I should have chosen other words to convey that I did not think you would like them.

I also did not take it personally, but I do have a great passion for these small and unique racing venues. Many have been around upwards to 100 years and are struggling to exist. They offer a different kind of experience where owners race for the joy of it because purses are meager, and often volunteers make it possible to put on these events. Quite different from the pure commercialism of big tracks.

[Track Collector]

If Rillito "has its place"...then, what sort of "contraction" would you recommend?

I believe contraction really applies more to competing places that are within "close" proximity of each other. Most of the horses at Rillito would not be competitive at Turf Paradise, thus they can co-exist.

On the other hand, take some tracks like Parx, Delaware Park, Penn National, and Presque Isle Downs. They often run on top of each other. As difficult as it is in the racing world where most look out only for their own interests, working together to develop a seasonal racing calendar where everyone gets their turn would be an improvement.

Then again, "improvement" is in the eye of the beholder. Horseplayers like larger fields, while Horsemen prefer small fields where chances of getting a check are improved.

[cj]

First of all, you don't even know me, I don't thumb my nose at anything or anyone.

You mean other than female sideline reporters?

[Mandrake]

Nothing against them personally, just the cookie cutter mentality that everyone has to have them. The process. The women coaches are coming next. That should be interesting. And once that starts, all teams will have them too. The same process.

[Stillriledup]

Nothing against them personally, just the cookie cutter mentality that everyone has to have them. The process. The women coaches are coming next. That should be interesting. And once that starts, all teams will have them too. The same process.

I have a hunch they would take it personally.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

I believe contraction really applies more to competing places that are within "close" proximity of each other. Most of the horses at Rillito would not be competitive at Turf Paradise, thus they can co-exist.

On the other hand, take some tracks like Parx, Delaware Park, Penn National, and Presque Isle Downs. They often run on top of each other. As difficult as it is in the racing world where most look out only for their own interests, working together to develop a seasonal racing calendar where everyone gets their turn would be an improvement.

Then again, "improvement" is in the eye of the beholder. Horseplayers like larger fields, while Horsemen prefer small fields where chances of getting a check are improved.

I think this is an excellent and insightful point. Many small and even medium tracks are as much about state breds.

You can probably add Mountaineer, Finger Lakes and some others to the list of tracks cannibalizing each other.

I actually think contraction needs to be the mid-size tracks, especially those with casino pumped up purses. They are the ones pulling horses from major venues, not the puny tracks like Rilito or Arapahoe. You close those sorts of tracks and no one will notice, and nothing changes. You know how many horses from Arapahoe make it to a major league track? A very small handful. Parx managed to get the Derby winner, and two eventual Breeder's Cup winners in 2014. Close it and one of the big players benefits. As much as I like Monmouth, without that track Belmont and Saratoga would get more horses and fuller fields. Same with Delaware. GG fields in California. Tampa Bay Downs. Pimlico. Closing those tracks would have enormous impact on field quality and size at the large venues that would remain. Of course the problem with closing those tracks is two-fold and there is no obvious solution. First, the state breeding programs that are dependent on having a track in state. Second, is the live track experience. Although America is football crazy and there are only 30 professional teams, and most people don't attend NFL games live.

Having a smaller number of primary tracks might also solve peripheral problems. Better horses, perhaps the ability to reduce medications. It would then make sense to have a central authority to take care of scheduling and other issues. Better jockey colonies. The list goes on. And if you could figure out a way to card races for NJ breds somewhere else, you might be on your way.

But to answer the question, if not Rilito, who - the answer is not Rilito, but the tracks that are actually keeping racing from being as good as it can be.

[ultracapper]

EMD, that is the fallacy of this small track create fans nonsense. American Pharaoh created more fans in one year than these minor tracks will create in the next 20. Do I have the stats? No. Do you have the stats that all these minor tracks create all these fans? No. But I would bet my money and yours on the former.

No way American Pharaoh created more fans than the existence of a hometown race track. You're in NY? Stand out on the street tomorrow and ask the first 100 people that walk past you who won the Preakness this year. I'd bet less than 20% will be able to name AP. Some of those might be able to tell you who won the triple crown, but because they never really became fans, they have no idea that the Preakness is part of that series.

A little 3rd tier track will get 500 to 1000 people a day in attendance. I would bet you would have to interview 100,000 people in order to find 500 people that never bet on the horses before June and have now bet over $500 on horses because AP "made them a fan". This time next year, stand out on the corner and ask the first 100 people who won the triple crown in 2015, I'd bet $1000 you wouldn't get the correct answer from 10 of them. This time next year, AP is totally forgotten by the general public, if he hasn't been already.

[Mandrake]

That is like asking me who won the Emmy for best album of the year. I would pick 20 people that wouldn't even know what the Preakness is. We would need a group of people who had an experience with horse racing for the first time this year. Then what was the experience, and why. Otherwise I would be on the street for a very, very long time.

[Mandrake]

And yes, I was being facetious, I know Grammy is the award.

[therussmeister]

EMD, that is the fallacy of this small track create fans nonsense. American Pharaoh created more fans in one year than these minor tracks will create in the next 20. Do I have the stats? No. Do you have the stats that all these minor tracks create all these fans? No. But I would bet my money and yours on the former.
That means minor tracks create more fans than AP, because we have an AP less than once every 20 years.

[andtheyreoff]

I actually think contraction needs to be the mid-size tracks, especially those with casino pumped up purses. They are the ones pulling horses from major venues, not the puny tracks like Rilito or Arapahoe. You close those sorts of tracks and no one will notice, and nothing changes. You know how many horses from Arapahoe make it to a major league track? A very small handful. Parx managed to get the Derby winner, and two eventual Breeder's Cup winners in 2014. Close it and one of the big players benefits. As much as I like Monmouth, without that track Belmont and Saratoga would get more horses and fuller fields. Same with Delaware. GG fields in California. Tampa Bay Downs. Pimlico. Closing those tracks would have enormous impact on field quality and size at the large venues that would remain. Of course the problem with closing those tracks is two-fold and there is no obvious solution. First, the state breeding programs that are dependent on having a track in state. Second, is the live track experience. Although America is football crazy and there are only 30 professional teams, and most people don't attend NFL games live.


Yeah, removing racing from the Philadelphia market would be just a blast. So would ending the NJ racing industry, and removing the Maryland industry's metropolitan track. Tampa Bay Downs would also be a great track to close--that way, Gulfstream can get more horses that they're apparently entitled to, and run even more maiden claiming races!

In all seriousness, the big tracks don't "deserve" better horses and races any more than the medium-sized tracks do. That's bullshit. **** that.

[Mandrake]

120,000 at the Derby, another 80,000 at the Preakness, 60,000 at Belmont, because of cutoff, Breeders cup maxed at Keenland. There were more people that showed up for AP workouts then did at a minor track for a card of racing. I will take my chances.

[Mandrake]

The tracks, or states they are in, or owners want to do it. They have their casinos, card rooms, simulcasting, all the things they needed to "survive", and now say their horse racing can't survive. Hollywood, gone. Pimlico, falling apart, Stronach would close that place in a minute before he put a dime into it. West Virginia, in trouble. New Jersey, tough casino lobby, losing money. Texas, another tough casino lobby. Illinois, hurting bad. Finger Lakes, just about gone. Delaware, parx less dates. Suffolk, gone. It's tough not to see the writing on the wall.

[EMD4ME]

I guess it's NOT "a very slow time of the year" when it comes to opinions of contraction.....:cool:


Let's not beat up on Mandrake. I owe him 2 drinks before all this contraction happens :lol:

In all seriousness. Out of all these people at the Derby, Preakness, Belmont BC etc, I'd love to know how many actually have bet an additional race since attending the "racing event".

I'd say it's less than POINT 1%. Yes, 0.10%

Find a newbie at the racetrack in some small track, odds are they are coming back.

Get a newbie to some small track in nowhere town, odds are they are coming back.

Bottom line, this game needs someone, any track, any management to advertise to the people who's IQ's are 140 or higher. High IQ people need mental stimulation and a challenge. This game will give you that eternally.

Alas, we get .10% of the advertising that we should get :bang:

[EMD4ME]

Yeah, removing racing from the Philadelphia market would be just a blast. So would ending the NJ racing industry, and removing the Maryland industry's metropolitan track. Tampa Bay Downs would also be a great track to close--that way, Gulfstream can get more horses that they're apparently entitled to, and run even more maiden claiming races!

In all seriousness, the big tracks don't "deserve" better horses and races any more than the medium-sized tracks do. That's bullshit. **** that.

If I hit the mega millions, I will buy a monster sire, breed him to 100,000 mares ASAP and just give the horses away TO SMALL OUTFITS.

I'd then buy a racetrack and make the purse structure as such:

12 horse field, 100% of purse.
11 horse field 95 of purse.
10 horse field 80% of purse
9 horse field 65% of purse.
8 horse field 55% of purse.

Anything under, 35% of purse.

Trust me, we'd find more 12 horse fields. Even if 5 are "no go's".

Anyway, I agree, shutting down those tracks is a BAND AID that covers up the real on coming overall death.

Real solutions are needed, not contraction of the heart to make some other body part look more healthy than it is really is.

[thespaah]

Yeah, removing racing from the Philadelphia market would be just a blast. So would ending the NJ racing industry, and removing the Maryland industry's metropolitan track. Tampa Bay Downs would also be a great track to close--that way, Gulfstream can get more horses that they're apparently entitled to, and run even more maiden claiming races!

In all seriousness, the big tracks don't "deserve" better horses and races any more than the medium-sized tracks do. That's bullshit. **** that.
I maintain this observation. There are too many racetracks operating simultaneously in close geographic proximity competing for similar quality racing stock.
With the number of foals dropped on a continuing slide something has to give.
What the something is, I have no idea. The most simple of reactions is 'contraction'....JMHO

[thespaah]

If I hit the mega millions, I will buy a monster sire, breed him to 100,000 mares ASAP and just give the horses away TO SMALL OUTFITS.

I'd then buy a racetrack and make the purse structure as such:

12 horse field, 100% of purse.
11 horse field 95 of purse.
10 horse field 80% of purse
9 horse field 65% of purse.
8 horse field 55% of purse.

Anything under, 35% of purse.

Trust me, we'd find more 12 horse fields. Even if 5 are "no go's".

Anyway, I agree, shutting down those tracks is a BAND AID that covers up the real on coming overall death.

Real solutions are needed, not contraction of the heart to make some other body part look more healthy than it is really is.
Ok...I concur with your observations. But there has to be a solution other than what not to do. There has to be a solution of what to do.
One thing is for certain. The status quo is not the answer.
Change is inevitable. The current business model is non functional.

[EMD4ME]

Ok...I concur with your observations. But there has to be a solution other than what not to do. There has to be a solution of what to do.
One thing is for certain. The status quo is not the answer.
Change is inevitable. The current business model is non functional.

Intelligent Marketing is step 1. Step 2 step 3.....step 100.

There is ZERO marketing of the greatest game on earth (IMHO). But you can't market what you are bleeding to death for selfish gain.

You can't invite people over when the house is even relatively dirty..... :bang:

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Yeah, removing racing from the Philadelphia market would be just a blast. So would ending the NJ racing industry, and removing the Maryland industry's metropolitan track. Tampa Bay Downs would also be a great track to close--that way, Gulfstream can get more horses that they're apparently entitled to, and run even more maiden claiming races!

In all seriousness, the big tracks don't "deserve" better horses and races any more than the medium-sized tracks do. That's bullshit. **** that.
You can be against contraction or believe it won't work, and that's a perfectly legitimate position, but if you want to have fewer tracks, some have to close. You understand the reason why people favor the idea, right?

The point was that, assuming contraction would improve the industry (and it almost certainly would improve field size), closing the smaller tracks would have almost no impact on whatever problems are associated with having too many tracks. That for contraction to make a difference, you have to close some of the "mid-majors" and structure things so that one track at a time had exclusivity within a certain geographic area. What you can't have is tracks competing for the same horses (e.g., both Monmouth and Saratoga trying to get the best three year olds in August) at the same time, and you can't have tracks in such close proximity (Pennsylvania, Delaware, West Virginia, Maryland, Ohio) cannabalizing each other.

It's a purely academic discussion. The idea of actually working out contraction would be brain damaging. It isn't about pumping up the big tracks, it's about getting rid of some tracks, or at least keeping them from competing with each other. You can't have contraction, by definition, otherwise.

Nobody will seriously try to implement contraction. It will just be an esoteric discussion topic on forum boards. What we'll do in the meantime is just let tracks slowly become non-viable and wait to see which one is the next Hollywood or Suffolk. The market will ultimately figure out contraction, it just may take decades, and it may come too late.

As Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, deserve's got nothing to do with it.

[Mandrake]

Once states started to mandate less and less live dates to keep racino operations open, well that was the last hurdle these tracks were looking for. Suffolk had 3 cards last year, the Meadowlands, once with a nice fall meet, runs a couple of weeks of turf racing, and if cancelled because of weather, doesn't even reschedule the card, harness racing is two days a week currently. Pimlico's meet is now Preakness centric. We will have to live through this coming wave of contraction of meets, before we ever get to contraction of tracks.

[Mandrake]

Meant to say racino and simulcast operations, for the tracks with no racinos.

[ultracapper]

I'll stand by this.

A winning day at the track will create a horse player more reliably than a triple crown winner. Hell, a winning bet might do it.

[Kash$]

According to Steve Crist theres no evidence of American Pharoah's triple crown season bringing one more $1 at the pari-mutuel windows.

[Stillriledup]

According to Steve Crist theres no evidence of American Pharoah's triple crown season bringing one more $1 at the pari-mutuel windows.

I call it my 'yay, and than what' theory.

So 'racing' got a Triple Crown winner.

Yay.

Now what?

Lots of experts said this would be good for racing.

[thaskalos]

According to Steve Crist theres no evidence of American Pharoah's triple crown season bringing one more $1 at the pari-mutuel windows.

You can easily get someone to watch your product for FREE...from the comfort of his own home. But when you are asking him to actually put his MONEY down on your product...then you have to make sure that you have something that's worth buying. And that's something that the racing industry hasn't been considering these days.

Even the great American Pharoah isn't able to "sell" this game...in its current form.

[Stillriledup]

You can easily get someone to watch your product for FREE...from the comfort of his own home. But when you are asking him to actually put his MONEY down on your product...then you have to make sure that you have something that's worth buying. And that's something that the racing industry hasn't been considering these days.

Even the great American Pharoah isn't able to "sell" this game...in its current form.
Great points. its one thing to get people to watch for free, quite another to turn them into some form of paying customer. Not easy.

[Mandrake]

I don't know what Steve is referring to as triple crown season? Just the three races? Possibly because the crowds would be there anyway. But the Haskell broke all records, attendance and handle. Without AP, it would have never happened. But I don't know if he would include that race as part of the triple crown season.