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Overlay
01-06-2016, 07:04 PM
Ken Griffey, Jr. and Mike Piazza have been voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Stillriledup
01-06-2016, 07:10 PM
jKm5Y_i7U8g

The Herd on the HOF, this was today's show.

Overlay
01-06-2016, 07:27 PM
Here's a link to the story:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/griffey-elected-to-hall-of-fame-with-highest-percentage-piazza-in/ar-AAgrGpl?li=BBnb7Kz

cj
01-06-2016, 07:30 PM
Like both of these. Loved Piazza's swing.

MutuelClerk
01-06-2016, 08:24 PM
Anyone at this site could have stole a base off Piazza. I'm talking today not 30 years ago when most of us could run. Hall Of The Pretty Good.

Ocala Mike
01-06-2016, 09:02 PM
Anyone at this site could have stole a base off Piazza. I'm talking today not 30 years ago when most of us could run. Hall Of The Pretty Good.

He didn't get in for his defensive abilities, but I'm sure you're aware of that. Now if you want to say he used PEDs and therefore should not get in, you might have a better case.

barahona44
01-06-2016, 09:36 PM
Does anyone have the names of the 3 yoyos who decided Ken Griffey, Jr. wasn't good enough for the Hall of Fame. Baseball writers have always been the most pompous asses amongst the sports media

Stillriledup
01-06-2016, 09:45 PM
Does anyone have the names of the 3 yoyos who decided Ken Griffey, Jr. wasn't good enough for the Hall of Fame. Baseball writers have always been the most pompous asses amongst the sports media

I was just going to ask the same thing. These non voters need to be outed.

Valuist
01-06-2016, 10:47 PM
Does anyone have the names of the 3 yoyos who decided Ken Griffey, Jr. wasn't good enough for the Hall of Fame. Baseball writers have always been the most pompous asses amongst the sports media

Beat me to the punch on this. WTF were they thinking?

Zaf
01-06-2016, 10:47 PM
Its a shame Tim Raines didnt get in, He has one last shot in 2017.

Z

MutuelClerk
01-06-2016, 11:12 PM
The entire process needs to be reviewed. I'm a Tiger fan, it angers me that Trammell gets sucked along for 15 years and doesn't make it. If he only did backflips he would have been a lock. Ron Santo was sucked along the same way, dies and gets voted in. One vote, either you make it or you don't. Totally agree about the three writers leaving Griffey off their ballots. Take away their ballots. Barry Bonds at age 42 in his last season had an OPS of 1.042 We were arguing at work the other day about the two biggest "criminals" held out of the Hall and who was a better player. Bonds or Rose? It amazed me the majority took Rose. In my mind it isn't even close and I loved Rose as a player.

Inner Dirt
01-06-2016, 11:27 PM
How many here saw Griffey Jr play class A ball? He briefly played for The California league's San Bernardino Spirit when I lived in North San Bernardino in the late 80's. He wasn't even there a half season. He was the team's best hitter, including power and the best fielder without even trying. He was kind of a hot dog playing CF, purposely breaking slow on balls and then quickly running them down. Made a lot of over the shoulder and sliding catches. I have went to way more A-ball games than the Majors, just as entertaining to me and 1/5 the price for everything.

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 01:05 AM
I was just going to ask the same thing. These non voters need to be outed.

And publicly shamed. And have their HOF voting rights revoked.

cj
01-07-2016, 01:07 AM
Does anyone have the names of the 3 yoyos who decided Ken Griffey, Jr. wasn't good enough for the Hall of Fame. Baseball writers have always been the most pompous asses amongst the sports media

Same crap with Cal Ripken, Tom Seaver, and many other sure fire first ballot locks. It is ridiculous.

cj
01-07-2016, 01:13 AM
How many here saw Griffey Jr play class A ball? He briefly played for The California league's San Bernardino Spirit when I lived in North San Bernardino in the late 80's. He wasn't even there a half season. He was the team's best hitter, including power and the best fielder without even trying. He was kind of a hot dog playing CF, purposely breaking slow on balls and then quickly running them down. Made a lot of over the shoulder and sliding catches. I have went to way more A-ball games than the Majors, just as entertaining to me and 1/5 the price for everything.

I saw a tweet today, his Upper Deck Rookie Card was actually a picture from that minor league team "Photoshopped" or whatever they did back in 1989 with Mariners garb.

http://a2.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2016%2F0106%2Fmlb_griffeyCard_129 6x882.jpg&w=570

Story on how it came to be #1 in the set:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14515983/how-ken-griffey-jr-rookie-card-became-no-1-upper-deck

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 01:14 AM
How many here saw Griffey Jr play class A ball? He briefly played for The California league's San Bernardino Spirit when I lived in North San Bernardino in the late 80's. He wasn't even there a half season. He was the team's best hitter, including power and the best fielder without even trying. He was kind of a hot dog playing CF, purposely breaking slow on balls and then quickly running them down. Made a lot of over the shoulder and sliding catches. I have went to way more A-ball games than the Majors, just as entertaining to me and 1/5 the price for everything.

I never saw Griffey play in the minors, but I did see Piazza a lot. I was a minor league umpire in the Northwest League '89 and the California League in '91 when Piazza played in those leagues. It is amazing what hard work can do for a person. In 1989, Piazza was brand new to catching after having played 1B in junior college. He was raw in every aspect of playing the position. None of the umpires liked working a game behind him. He could not frame or block pitches, but was great at blocking the umpires' views. He had a strong arm, but terrible mechanics and accuracy when throwing. What he did have, even at that early stage, was power. He hit 8 home runs in 1989, not a huge total, but that is short season A ball.

When I saw him again in 1991, he was arguably the best player in the Cal League. He was still pretty raw behind the plate, but man he could rake! His power was amazing even then and I can tell you that he was still very thin. He filled out later and many accused him of using PEDs. In my opinion, this is a preposterous accusation. The guy was a tireless worker who got everything out of his talent. I think he played half of his career with bad knees.

People often talk of Ken Griffey Jr.s natural ability. I saw plenty of Griffey through much of his career as I live in the Seattle area. While Griffey is the best player I have ever seen, I am actually much more happy to see Piazza inducted into the HOF. That makes two players whose games I called (Pedro is the other) that have been inducted in the HOF. I am very proud to have shared the same field with them. If only my career could have been a fraction as good!

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 01:17 AM
The entire process needs to be reviewed. I'm a Tiger fan, it angers me that Trammell gets sucked along for 15 years and doesn't make it. If he only did backflips he would have been a lock. Ron Santo was sucked along the same way, dies and gets voted in. One vote, either you make it or you don't. Totally agree about the three writers leaving Griffey off their ballots. Take away their ballots. Barry Bonds at age 42 in his last season had an OPS of 1.042 We were arguing at work the other day about the two biggest "criminals" held out of the Hall and who was a better player. Bonds or Rose? It amazed me the majority took Rose. In my mind it isn't even close and I loved Rose as a player.

I agree with you about Trammell. One of the all time great shortstops, both offensively and defensively very solid. You could even argue that Lance Parrish is a HOFer. Bonds, in my opinion, is a HOFer with or without the PEDs. Once in a while, just for the hell of it, I view his stats at baseball-reference. They are that amazing.

Kash$
01-07-2016, 07:08 AM
Griffey top 10 all time.

rastajenk
01-07-2016, 07:12 AM
Like both of these. Loved Piazza's swing.
But Griffey's was sweeter. :)

barahona44
01-07-2016, 08:43 AM
Beat me to the punch on this. WTF were they thinking?
I remember reading that Dick Young, the long time NY Daily News baseball writer, said that he knew several writers who thought nobody should get in the Hall on the first ballot unless they were a Babe Ruth or a Ty Cobb.I also wonder if any of the 3 voters didn't have their derrieres sufficiently smooched by Griffey to get their vote.

Valuist
01-07-2016, 10:24 AM
I remember reading that Dick Young, the long time NY Daily News baseball writer, said that he knew several writers who thought nobody should get in the Hall on the first ballot unless they were a Babe Ruth or a Ty Cobb.I also wonder if any of the 3 voters didn't have their derrieres sufficiently smooched by Griffey to get their vote.

At least its not as bad as the R & R HOF. The Beatles, Rolling Stones and Zeppelin didn't get in on their first year of eligibility.

This year, Cooperstown got it right. Out here in the Bay area, they are trying to make a case for Jeff Kent....C'mon. Kent is a good player but Hall of Fame?? That's insanity.

Secondbest
01-07-2016, 11:18 AM
Look at Kent's numbers compared to other secondbasemen who were voted in.Not as insane as you think

Inner Dirt
01-07-2016, 11:26 AM
I never saw Griffey play in the minors, but I did see Piazza a lot. I was a minor league umpire in the Northwest League '89 and the California League in '91 when Piazza played in those leagues. It is amazing what hard work can do for a person. In 1989, Piazza was brand new to catching after having played 1B in junior college. He was raw in every aspect of playing the position. None of the umpires liked working a game behind him. He could not frame or block pitches, but was great at blocking the umpires' views. He had a strong arm, but terrible mechanics and accuracy when throwing. What he did have, even at that early stage, was power. He hit 8 home runs in 1989, not a huge total, but that is short season A ball.

When I saw him again in 1991, he was arguably the best player in the Cal League. He was still pretty raw behind the plate, but man he could rake! His power was amazing even then and I can tell you that he was still very thin. He filled out later and many accused him of using PEDs. In my opinion, this is a preposterous accusation. The guy was a tireless worker who got everything out of his talent. I think he played half of his career with bad knees.

People often talk of Ken Griffey Jr.s natural ability. I saw plenty of Griffey through much of his career as I live in the Seattle area. While Griffey is the best player I have ever seen, I am actually much more happy to see Piazza inducted into the HOF. That makes two players whose games I called (Pedro is the other) that have been inducted in the HOF. I am very proud to have shared the same field with them. If only my career could have been a fraction as good!

Cool story, what Cal League venues did you ump at? For the record I may have drank a little too much at Cal League games but never heckled the umpires.

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 03:54 PM
Cool story, what Cal League venues did you ump at? For the record I may have drank a little too much at Cal League games but never heckled the umpires.

I may not remember the names of every stadium, but:

Salinas
Stockton
Reno
San Jose
Modesto

Palm Springs
Bakersfield (Sam Lynn)
San Bernardino
Visalia
Victorville (Mavericks Stadium)

No worries about the heckling. I seldom heard it anyway with the exception of Everett WA. It is part of the experience and learning how to be an umpire, but thanks for not doing it!

Inner Dirt
01-07-2016, 04:51 PM
I may not remember the names of every stadium, but:

Salinas
Stockton
Reno
San Jose
Modesto

Palm Springs
Bakersfield (Sam Lynn)
San Bernardino
Visalia
Victorville (Mavericks Stadium)

No worries about the heckling. I seldom heard it anyway with the exception of Everett WA. It is part of the experience and learning how to be an umpire, but thanks for not doing it!

Of those I was only went to Palm Springs and San Bernardino. Went to Elsinore after the Storm was there. The curious wants to know what did they pay minor league umps and what was the life like? Also how did you learn to tune people out? When I listen to ESPN radio in my work shop and they broadcast those annoying Don Le Batard show ads I have actually went over and punched the radio. I hate hearing that guy so much I have stopped listening to ESPN radio altogether.

MutuelClerk
01-07-2016, 06:59 PM
Bill James should be in the HOF. He really opened my eyes to baseball in the 80's. Couldn't wait for the Baseball Abstract every year.

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 09:06 PM
At least its not as bad as the R & R HOF. The Beatles, Rolling Stones and Zeppelin didn't get in on their first year of eligibility.

This year, Cooperstown got it right. Out here in the Bay area, they are trying to make a case for Jeff Kent....C'mon. Kent is a good player but Hall of Fame?? That's insanity.

Did you move? Weren't you once in Chicago or thereabouts?

horses4courses
01-07-2016, 09:26 PM
At least its not as bad as the R & R HOF. The Beatles, Rolling Stones and Zeppelin didn't get in on their first year of eligibility.

This year, Cooperstown got it right. Out here in the Bay area, they are trying to make a case for Jeff Kent....C'mon. Kent is a good player but Hall of Fame?? That's insanity.

I never liked Kent much as a Giant,
and I'm not alone among Giants fans.

Sure, he put up good numbers.
His attitude towards teammates?
Questionable.

The guy was very happy to become a Dodger.
That never sits well with Giants fans. :ThmbDown:

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 09:41 PM
Of those I was only went to Palm Springs and San Bernardino. Went to Elsinore after the Storm was there. The curious wants to know what did they pay minor league umps and what was the life like? Also how did you learn to tune people out? When I listen to ESPN radio in my work shop and they broadcast those annoying Don Le Batard show ads I have actually went over and punched the radio. I hate hearing that guy so much I have stopped listening to ESPN radio altogether.

The pay was very, very low throughout the minors and remains so to this day. When I started in short season A ball I made $1,600/month. I was also a driver and received a mileage allowance which paid for our gas from city to city. During my 1st and 2nd seasons, I had to pay all expenses out of my paycheck: food, motel, laundry, clubhouse tips, etc. Prior to the 2nd season, Commissioner Faye Vincent gave all minor league umpires an across the board $500/month raise! This was greatly appreciated and I told the Commish as much when I met him during spring training in 1991. I really like Mr. Vincent as our Commish.

One thing that helped to defray costs was that at least one or two of the umpires lived within the league that we worked. For example, I lived in Marysville, WA which was just north of Everett and about an hour from Bellingham, WA. All of the crews stayed at my (my parents' really) home gratis. This was the case in the Cal League as well...for the first year.

During my 3rd season (2nd in the Cal League), the teams cut a deal with the leagues and our hotels were provided for us. We thought that this was a great deal until we realized that our raise was gone. What made matters worse is that because the team was effectively required to provide a hotel room, we were required to stay in them. Even worse, the teams seemed to know whether we actually did stay in them and we would be fined if we didn't. One crew actually checked into the room, messed up the blankets and sheets on the bed ran water, got towels wet, then left and stayed at one of the crew members' actual residence. They were found out and fined. The kicker is that the umpire, now an MLB umpire, was married and had a new baby at home, but our league president, a major mofo named Joe Gagliardi, would not make an exception. Pay for that season was $1,800.

Triple AAA umpires received $3,000 prior to the raise and $3,500 after. I am not sure about the hotel situation, but they do fly from city to city. The last time I checked on wages, about two years ago - they had not changed very much at all!

Life is actually pretty hard on the road, but it doesn't seem that way when you are in the moment because you are focused on advancement and, hopefully, an opportunity to make The Show. The NW League was better because you got to stay in each town for a 5 game series. It was also not as hot as the Cal League. The Cal League was much better in the north because it was not as hot. The south was brutal, especially Palm Springs. In the Cal League the drives were shorter, but you moved every 2-3 days. There were even a few 1-game series.

The worst things that happened to me when I worked were injury and illness. The 1991 season was a nightmare as I was injured about a month into the season and had to be out for 6-weeks (broken collarbone). When I called the Umpire Development HQ to report the injury the next day, the question that I was asked was, "Did you finish the game?" Thanks for the concern! For the record, I did finish the game even though I could not lift my right arm to call strikes. The game finished with a tag play at the plate. I got an awful sore throat in the desert and had to find an urgent care and a doctor for treatment. Fortunately, minor league umps have decent health insurance, but it is still being sick when you are away from home.

Dealing with team personnel can be hit and miss. Some are very nice and great to work with while others consider umpires to be a necessary evil. Even the trainers can be rough. For example, you could break your collarbone and not even have them come out to check on you. Or you could catch a foul ball off your forearm and think your arm is broken and not get a check. There is a guy by the name of Geoff Clark who was great. He was the trainer for the Salem Dodgers. Not only did he procure a Raul Mondesi bat for me, but he made sure that he got us food, and went out with us after games. Anybody reading this should Google him. He became a trainer for NBA teams and actually gave one of his kidneys to a complete stranger. Definitely a good person!

Learning to tune out fans is not that difficult because umpiring requires total focus and concentration. Baseball is such a fast game that you have to be careful not to blink at the wrong time or you can miss something very important; a pitch, check swing, etc. Once in a while, you do hear fans when either the stadium is deserted and sound carries, or when they say things that are funny and creative. One trick that that I also learned was to find a target in the stands, ideally a pretty girl, and direct strike calls to them. The weirdest thing I ever heard was a radio announcer calling the game in the press box behind me in a low press box. At the beginning of the game, he was naming me as the plate umpire and telling where I was from. It was actually pretty cool until I heard him referring to pitches as close. Tuned him out.

One thing that the average fan does not know is that mascots or their handlers will consult with the umps before the game to let them know how the act will go. They don't want the umps to be surprised. They especially do not want to be physically injured by the umpires. For example, one mascot, the Miami Miracle or something to that effect, asked me to punch in the nose. He was careful to ask me to pull the punch as he had been knocked out by an umpire in the past. It sucked when we worked with The Chicken. He focuses his act on the plate umpire, but I had the based that night so was left out of most of the act. I was really pissed to learn later that my partner got a tip from the Chicken while I got zip. The worst mascot that I ever encountered was Max Patkin, the Clown Prince of Baseball. He was the guy featured in Bull Durham. He ended up sharing our dressing room. He was a vulgar, bitter man and his act was not funny at all. In fact, I heard that the fans were so offended by him that the team did not ask him back.

Hope this helps. I doubt that much has changed over the years with the exception of the ballparks getting much, much nicer.

kingfin66
01-07-2016, 09:48 PM
I am overall very dissatisfied with the HOF voting process. There really does not seem to be any transparency with the vote or any type of set criteria for what gets somebody in. I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that somebody should automatically get in for 500 HRs, 3000 hits, 300 wins etc., but those are some awfully good achievements. Of course, great fielders are important as well and do not put up those great numbers. The HOF discriminates against those types of players.

In my opinion, guys like Edgar Martinez, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Trevor Hoffman are HOFers. I also think that Clemens and Bonds should get in. Pete too. At some point, it has to be determined how the players in the steroids era will be dealt with. Nothing has been proven yet some players are being blackballed.

NJ Stinks
01-08-2016, 12:22 AM
I am overall very dissatisfied with the HOF voting process. There really does not seem to be any transparency with the vote or any type of set criteria for what gets somebody in. I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that somebody should automatically get in for 500 HRs, 3000 hits, 300 wins etc., but those are some awfully good achievements. Of course, great fielders are important as well and do not put up those great numbers. The HOF discriminates against those types of players.

In my opinion, guys like Edgar Martinez, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Trevor Hoffman are HOFers. I also think that Clemens and Bonds should get in. Pete too. At some point, it has to be determined how the players in the steroids era will be dealt with. Nothing has been proven yet some players are being blackballed.

Kingfin, it's great to read about your umpiring days. Thanks for taking the time to tell us. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

But - yep, the proverbial but - I can't understand your leniency with drug users. You said Piazza was a hard-working guy. Great. Too bad he couldn't even give a straight answer on the day he made the HOF. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

IMO, throwing guys out who cheat with drugs is the only way the game stays pure. (I'm baffled that you still think baseball has to figure out how to deal with the steroid era. :confused: )

Stillriledup
01-08-2016, 01:14 AM
I am overall very dissatisfied with the HOF voting process. There really does not seem to be any transparency with the vote or any type of set criteria for what gets somebody in. I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that somebody should automatically get in for 500 HRs, 3000 hits, 300 wins etc., but those are some awfully good achievements. Of course, great fielders are important as well and do not put up those great numbers. The HOF discriminates against those types of players.

In my opinion, guys like Edgar Martinez, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Trevor Hoffman are HOFers. I also think that Clemens and Bonds should get in. Pete too. At some point, it has to be determined how the players in the steroids era will be dealt with. Nothing has been proven yet some players are being blackballed.

As Colin Cowherd has said the HOF vote is 'silly old men holding grudges'

Baseball is a statistics game, the elite 5 pct statswise get in, I don't know if MLB has an official record book or not, but when I Went to mlb.com and put in Barry Bonds stats, up came 762 HR. It didn't have an asterisk next to it,his HR total was sitting there unblemished, which got me thinking that there must be some other reason he's not in the HOF.

Mlb recognizes his achievements on their official website, there's nothing that says his stats have been 'disqualified' or anything else.

Seems odd that he didn't get voted in.

ManU918
01-08-2016, 03:42 AM
As Colin Cowherd has said the HOF vote is 'silly old men holding grudges'

Baseball is a statistics game, the elite 5 pct statswise get in, I don't know if MLB has an official record book or not, but when I Went to mlb.com and put in Barry Bonds stats, up came 762 HR. It didn't have an asterisk next to it,his HR total was sitting there unblemished, which got me thinking that there must be some other reason he's not in the HOF.

Mlb recognizes his achievements on their official website, there's nothing that says his stats have been 'disqualified' or anything else.

Seems odd that he didn't get voted in.

I couldn't agree more with Cowherd. Honestly outside of the players do fans give a shit about the Hall of Fame? If so, then why? When some of the best players of all-time like Rose, Bonds and Clemens are on the outside looking in, then I can't take an organization like that seriously. Mike Schmidt talks about how amphetamines were everywhere in baseball clubhouses during the 80's in his book. Why do those players get a pass? PED's are PED's. If every Hall of Fame closed tomorrow I wouldn't give two ****s.

Stillriledup
01-08-2016, 04:50 AM
I couldn't agree more with Cowherd. Honestly outside of the players do fans give a shit about the Hall of Fame? If so, then why? When some of the best players of all-time like Rose, Bonds and Clemens are on the outside looking in, then I can't take an organization like that seriously. Mike Schmidt talks about how amphetamines were everywhere in baseball clubhouses during the 80's in his book. Why do those players get a pass? PED's are PED's. If every Hall of Fame closed tomorrow I wouldn't give two ****s.

Couldn't agree more.

If the stats say you're good enough, you get in, if you are a committee that's hiring Men to 'pass judgment' than you're only as good as your weakest link.

We don't need silly old men 'disqualifying' baseball statistics when the employers of the athletes didnt see fit to disqualify them.

If the stats are in good standing on MLBs website, I'm going to assume they're as legit as everyone else's.

ebcorde
01-08-2016, 08:37 AM
I couldn't agree more with Cowherd. Honestly outside of the players do fans give a shit about the Hall of Fame? If so, then why? When some of the best players of all-time like Rose, Bonds and Clemens are on the outside looking in, then I can't take an organization like that seriously. Mike Schmidt talks about how amphetamines were everywhere in baseball clubhouses during the 80's in his book. Why do those players get a pass? PED's are PED's. If every Hall of Fame closed tomorrow I wouldn't give two ****s.

I'm not into the Hall of Fame anymore. The Standard to get in is too low. I get it, you need a lot of people in the HOF to sell tickets

I recall the media labeling the Pete Rose era Philies team "The Pillies"
I'd be afraid to take on a fastball on speed. Must be a very small dose.

ebcorde
01-08-2016, 08:48 AM
The entire process needs to be reviewed. I'm a Tiger fan, it angers me that Trammell gets sucked along for 15 years and doesn't make it. If he only did backflips he would have been a lock. Ron Santo was sucked along the same way, dies and gets voted in. One vote, either you make it or you don't. Totally agree about the three writers leaving Griffey off their ballots. Take away their ballots. Barry Bonds at age 42 in his last season had an OPS of 1.042 We were arguing at work the other day about the two biggest "criminals" held out of the Hall and who was a better player. Bonds or Rose? It amazed me the majority took Rose. In my mind it isn't even close and I loved Rose as a player.

whoa! backflips? you talking about the wiz? The wiz is in, a much better SS than Trammell. I remember Alan Trammel guessing a .290 hitter, Whitaker at 2nd.
Those type guys are a dime a dozen. Please, Santo was not that good. Hit cleanup for the cubs after Banks slowed down. And they fell apart every fall.


My childhood SS were Harreleson , Bowa, Belanger, Davey Concepcion, they're not in and maybe they're right

Inner Dirt
01-08-2016, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the story Kingfin66. I lived in Palm Desert a dozen miles from Palm Springs for about 5 years, the summer heat was brutal, but at least it was a dry heat. Used to go to a lot of the Angel spring training games there. Did any of the minor league umps work the major league spring training games in their area?

MutuelClerk
01-08-2016, 09:55 AM
whoa! backflips? you talking about the wiz? The wiz is in, a much better SS than Trammell. I remember Alan Trammel guessing a .290 hitter, Whitaker at 2nd.
Those type guys are a dime a dozen. Please, Santo was not that good. Hit cleanup for the cubs after Banks slowed down. And they fell apart every fall.


My childhood SS were Harreleson , Bowa, Belanger, Davey Concepcion, they're not in and maybe they're right

No. Olga Korbut. Who could have had a lifetime .666 OPS too. If Ozzie played his entire career in San Diego he wouldn't be in the HOF. Where you play means almost as much as what your career stats are. Ozzie was a great fielder. No question. But playing in St. Louis helped him a lot. Like others here I really don't care about the HOF anymore. It's keeping out the greats and letting in the very good. If you're putting in Ozzie, that's fine. But he was one dimensional. I think there were better all around SS's. Trams being one of them. I'm admittedly partial to Trammell. The fact that Whitaker was only the ballot only one time was laughable. The two of them will probably be inducted later by the veterans committee as a double play combo. Maybe that's fitting. Not worth arguing over. You love Ozzie, that's fine he made some truly amazing plays and won some titles. The Santo reference wasn't about on the field it was inducting him after he died. He got better all of a sudden? The entire process bothers me.

Inner Dirt
01-08-2016, 11:35 AM
I am overall very dissatisfied with the HOF voting process. There really does not seem to be any transparency with the vote or any type of set criteria for what gets somebody in. I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that somebody should automatically get in for 500 HRs, 3000 hits, 300 wins etc., but those are some awfully good achievements. Of course, great fielders are important as well and do not put up those great numbers. The HOF discriminates against those types of players.

In my opinion, guys like Edgar Martinez, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Trevor Hoffman are HOFers. I also think that Clemens and Bonds should get in. Pete too. At some point, it has to be determined how the players in the steroids era will be dealt with. Nothing has been proven yet some players are being blackballed.

Definitely agree there. My baseball fandom has waned over the years,
the players I am really familiar with played long ago. I can remember Yankee 3rd baseman Greg Nettles seemed to rob an opposing team of at least one down the line double a game. He hardly got any HOF votes. He may have only hit around .250 but to me every hit he stole from the other team was as good as him getting one himself. To me he was more of an asset than a .300 guy with power who was an average fielder. Some guys are a lot better than the numbers show.

kingfin66
01-09-2016, 01:22 AM
Nettles is a really good example of that type of player, although he had some great power. By today's standard of 3B, he would be a HOFer! My fandom has decreased quite a bit over the years as well. I am much more of a football and MMA fan these days. Baseball really blew it for me when they went on strike. The steroid era - despite my earlier post being what I would call neutral about some players being in the HOF - also diminished by enthusiasm. Unfortunately, it exists in every sport to some degree :(

kingfin66
01-09-2016, 01:31 AM
Kingfin, it's great to read about your umpiring days. Thanks for taking the time to tell us. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

But - yep, the proverbial but - I can't understand your leniency with drug users. You said Piazza was a hard-working guy. Great. Too bad he couldn't even give a straight answer on the day he made the HOF. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

IMO, throwing guys out who cheat with drugs is the only way the game stays pure. (I'm baffled that you still think baseball has to figure out how to deal with the steroid era. :confused: )

I don't know if I would say that I am "lenient" with drug users. My bigger point is probably more that we don't really know who the users are or were. Others have taken up my argument as well. There have always been users of PEDs of some type. Hell, when McGwire was hitting 70 HRs, he was interviewed iwth the andro in a container sitting in open view in his locker. The stuff was not banned. I cannot prove it, but I suspect a well-known catcher who played in the 70s and 80s for two American League teams to be perhaps our first steroid abuser.

I really do think that baseball needs to figure out what to do with these guys. Barry Bonds was clearly on a HOF track in his career before his body changed. He had power, but his hits started traveling further. I watched Clemens strike out 20 Mariners in 1986. Years later, he is accused of using and is still not in the HOF despite winning 354 games. Bottom line, I think that there are guys in the HOF who used PEDs and others who are being shunned because of voters being the upholder of some warped morality.

As for the Piazza press conference, I have not seen hims speak, but will try to find some video (should not be hard). It is surprising that he would be asked about that at his HOF presser? All of the coverage in my area has been about Griffey.

kingfin66
01-09-2016, 01:33 AM
As Colin Cowherd has said the HOF vote is 'silly old men holding grudges'

Baseball is a statistics game, the elite 5 pct statswise get in, I don't know if MLB has an official record book or not, but when I Went to mlb.com and put in Barry Bonds stats, up came 762 HR. It didn't have an asterisk next to it,his HR total was sitting there unblemished, which got me thinking that there must be some other reason he's not in the HOF.

Mlb recognizes his achievements on their official website, there's nothing that says his stats have been 'disqualified' or anything else.

Seems odd that he didn't get voted in.

They have their stats and then they have the Mitchell Report. They really do not know what to do, so nothing is done. No asterisk. Of course, the HOF voters are the sportswriters, but one would think that MLB would want their greatest players to be represented in the HOF.

kingfin66
01-09-2016, 01:40 AM
Thanks for the story Kingfin66. I lived in Palm Desert a dozen miles from Palm Springs for about 5 years, the summer heat was brutal, but at least it was a dry heat. Used to go to a lot of the Angel spring training games there. Did any of the minor league umps work the major league spring training games in their area?

Minor league umps work spring training games, but they are almost all minor league games. A few lower classification umps might get to work an occasional "B" game early in spring training, but for the most part they are working A and AA games. Minor league umps' spring is spent at one team's complex and all the games involve those teams. There are typically four umpires assigned to each camp; one AAA, one AA, and two A. Sometimes there might be three A ball umps. You stay in a hotel near the complex and commute in every day.

Major League games are umpired by veteran MLB umps who are on a partial schedule (lots of days off and limited plate jobs), and vacation umpires who are competing for permanent jobs. When camp breaks, the final exhibition games in MLB cites are usually worked by MLB umpires if in a MLB city or by AAA umpires if in a AAA city. For example, the Los Angeles Angels break camp and go to Las Vegas for 1 or 2 games. Those games would be worked by Pacific Coast League umps as the MLB umps would be heading to the first city that they will be working in.

I hope that answers the question.

NJ Stinks
01-09-2016, 01:54 AM
As for the Piazza press conference, I have not seen hims speak, but will try to find some video (should not be hard). It is surprising that he would be asked about that at his HOF presser? All of the coverage in my area has been about Griffey.

Here's a bit from Thursday's NY Post - the sportswriter is Ken Davidoff:
_____________________________

I’m not here to vouch for the chemical purity of Piazza’s body of work. You would have to be naïve to not at least wonder how a 62nd-round draft pick (by the Dodgers, in 1988) muscled his way into the record books, and in his first post-election session with the Baseball Writers Association of America, he danced around questions on the matter.

“Fans understand there’s no flawless institution,” he said. “We all make mistakes as far as … We all need to understand that the game is healed and they’ve addressed the issue and we’re moving on and being as positive as can be.”


Link to entire article: http://nypost.com/2016/01/07/why-mike-piazzas-hall-of-fame-election-is-highest-form-of-justice/

EasyGoer89
12-19-2016, 10:52 PM
Its a shame Tim Raines didnt get in, He has one last shot in 2017.

Z


http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a-letter-to-bbwaa-voters-why-tim-raines-deserves-to-be-in-the-hall-of-fame/

Robert Fischer
12-20-2016, 12:02 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a-letter-to-bbwaa-voters-why-tim-raines-deserves-to-be-in-the-hall-of-fame/

that's a heck of a case for Rock Raines :ThmbUp:


I don't know man... I'm a cynic who feels the HOFs are too easy to get into, and I kind of see Raines as an All-Star rather than a HOF player. Maybe I'm wrong on Raines? I don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other.

EasyGoer89
12-20-2016, 12:58 AM
that's a heck of a case for Rock Raines :ThmbUp:


I don't know man... I'm a cynic who feels the HOFs are too easy to get into, and I kind of see Raines as an All-Star rather than a HOF player. Maybe I'm wrong on Raines? I don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other.

I agree with you that the perception is sometimes different from reality, I think rock wasn't 'flashy' for lack of a better word he wasn't 'Ricky Henderson' so maybe he didn't get noticed as much, I know what you're saying he doesn't FEEL like a HOF player but maybe statistically, he is. I think the walks and base hits is a big factor should he be punished because he had an amazing eye at the plate? He no doubt could have gotten 3k hits if he was more of a free swinger who just didn't like to get walks, 3k hits gets him in, this article sold me, hard to argue with

FakeNameChanged
12-20-2016, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by Robert Fischer
that's a heck of a case for Rock Raines


I don't know man... I'm a cynic who feels the HOFs are too easy to get into, and I kind of see Raines as an All-Star rather than a HOF player. Maybe I'm wrong on Raines? I don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other.


http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a-letter-to-bbwaa-voters-why-tim-raines-deserves-to-be-in-the-hall-of-fame/
Loved this guy. I remember one year he held out and missed the entire spring training. They finally signed him early on, maybe it was their first game at Philadelphia. He hits for the cycle with no games or spring training under his belt. Richie Ashburn was doing the broadcast and said, Put this guy in the Hall of Fame.

andtheyreoff
12-20-2016, 03:26 PM
that's a heck of a case for Rock Raines :ThmbUp:


I don't know man... I'm a cynic who feels the HOFs are too easy to get into, and I kind of see Raines as an All-Star rather than a HOF player. Maybe I'm wrong on Raines? I don't have a very strong opinion one way or the other.

Among other things, Raines has a higher success rate on stealing bases than Rickey Henderson. He's absolutely deserving of the HOF.

Valuist
12-20-2016, 04:31 PM
Part of his problem is stolen bases have become devalued. But don't compare Raines to Henderson. Henderson: 297 HRs, 2190 walks, 2295 runs & 1406 stolen bases. By comparison, Raines: 170 HRs, 1330 walks, 1571 runs & 808 stolen bases. A very good player, but not HoF worthy, IMO.

EasyGoer89
01-18-2017, 11:57 PM
Rock is IN!

NJ Stinks
01-19-2017, 01:53 AM
I believe Vladimir Guerrero was a better ballplayer than all three guys who were voted in. I don't think there was anything Vlad could not do on a baseball field.

He even earned 126 assists as an outfielder!

barahona44
01-19-2017, 06:52 AM
I believe Vladimir Guerrero was a better ballplayer than all three guys who were voted in. I don't think there was anything Vlad could not do on a baseball field.

He even earned 126 assists as an outfielder!
He was guilty of playing most of his career for the mostly irrelevent Montreal Expos and never blowing his own horn.I read even among his teammates he was very quiet Also didn't walk that much for such a feared hitter,which is a cardinal sin for the stats geeks.Don't recall any controversy surrounding him except he had 8 kids by 5 different women.

Agree one of the best all around players of the past 30 years.Should have been voted in.

MutuelClerk
01-19-2017, 09:42 AM
Love Raines, wish Vlad would have made it. The HOF has lost me. The last World Series team without a HOF member was the 1984 Tigers. Trams should be there. I love sabremetrics but that community really screwed over Jack Morris. After leaving the Tigers Morris went to two other teams as their ace and won a World Series. Not to mention a ten inning shutout in the seventh game of a World Series. Personally I hope the Tigers trade Cabrera it's his only chance of making the HOF.

Pudge is a Ranger not Tiger. I guess catchers get a PED pass to the HOF. Take Selig out.

HoofedInTheChest
01-19-2017, 09:49 AM
He was guilty of playing most of his career for the mostly irrelevent Montreal Expos and never blowing his own horn.I read even among his teammates he was very quiet Also didn't walk that much for such a feared hitter,which is a cardinal sin for the stats geeks.Don't recall any controversy surrounding him except he had 8 kids by 5 different women.

Agree one of the best all around players of the past 30 years.Should have been voted in.
You could say the same thing about Tim Raines, minus the 8 kids by 5 wives part. He was an Expo as well, and ran the bases with a hyper-aggressiveness on a team that played high octane baseball. While he wasn’t a prototypical HOF candidate, you can’t deny he was one of the most thrilling players in baseball history, the man was a lot of fun to watch.

The baseball geeks take issue with every player voted into the HOF, and i expect this year to be no different.

Vladi deserves to be included in the HOF, and just about made it in with 71.7% of the votes in his first year of eligibility. Speaking of Vladi, his son Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is in the Jays system, and has been named the organization's top prospect by Baseball America, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

barahona44
01-19-2017, 11:20 AM
You could say the same thing about Tim Raines, minus the 8 kids by 5 wives part. He was an Expo as well, and ran the bases with a hyper-aggressiveness on a team that played high octane baseball. While he wasn’t a prototypical HOF candidate, you can’t deny he was one of the most thrilling players in baseball history, the man was a lot of fun to watch.

The baseball geeks take issue with every player voted into the HOF, and i expect this year to be no different.

Vladi deserves to be included in the HOF, and just about made it in with 71.7% of the votes in his first year of eligibility. Speaking of Vladi, his son Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is in the Jays system, and has been named the organization's top prospect by Baseball America, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Vlad also (horrors) swung at the first pitch too often.He hit 126 first pitch home runs (believed to be the most ever but records of the old timers are incomplete) and put nearly 1800 first pitch balls in play.I can hear the outrage already from the sabremetric crowd when he eventually gets into Cooperstown. :)