Best/fastest tote provider?

[johnhenry81]

Hello All,

I am an Xpressbet user, and like looking for (pool) market inefficiencies. The pool flashes seems to lag more than ever, even with my manual refresh attempts. I know the simulcast money mixes late, but the xpressbet WPS pool seems to stall for a minute or two between loading and after the start, leaving me surprised by the final WPS handle.
Anybody have experience with Twinspires, Bris or other?

Thanks jh

[no breathalyzer]

Hello All,

I am an Xpressbet user, and like looking for (pool) market inefficiencies. The pool flashes seems to lag more than ever, even with my manual refresh attempts. I know the simulcast money mixes late, but the xpressbet WPS pool seems to stall for a minute or two between loading and after the start, leaving me surprised by the final WPS handle.
Anybody have experience with Twinspires, Bris or other?

Thanks jh


It's kind of ironic this thread appeared this morning because i was thinking to myself yesterday how fast the pools were updating for me yesterday. i kept waiting for an other update and they never came.. i had plenty of time to bet after the last late $$ flash yesterday... i think my adw i'm at now uses Twinspires software but not sure if he same when comes to how the simulcast $$$ mixes in... Maybe the whales were not betting the races i watched.. i don't know

[pondman]

It's just part of technology. No matter where you play. You can be at the track and think you are catching a 5-1 shot and by the end of he race it will be 4 to 5.

[thespaah]

Hello All,

I am an Xpressbet user, and like looking for (pool) market inefficiencies. The pool flashes seems to lag more than ever, even with my manual refresh attempts. I know the simulcast money mixes late, but the xpressbet WPS pool seems to stall for a minute or two between loading and after the start, leaving me surprised by the final WPS handle.
Anybody have experience with Twinspires, Bris or other?

Thanks jh
You can try this....I use it. It seems to update rather frequently. Not real time by any stretch. But useful.
http://basic.tvg.com/Open/RaceInformation/CurrentOddsResults.aspx

[azeri98]

It's just part of technology. No matter where you play. You can be at the track and think you are catching a 5-1 shot and by the end of he race it will be 4 to 5.
Exactly I had a horse the other day leave the gate at 6-1, going into the clubhouse turn he was 5-1 and going down the backstretch he went to 4-1 where he ended up at.

[cj]

Not that it helps with odds changes after the break, but the odds shown in TimeformUS PPs are updated as fast as you will find anywhere. I often see the changes there and then the ADWs show the same from 30 seconds to a minute later.

[tanner12oz]

Twinspires (at least mobile) doesn't update in anything close to real time so I wouldn't bother. Maybe the other Ts platforms work better but like I said mobile has delays

[BCOURTNEY]

:: tinfoil hat ::

Good luck solving this it's the providers and adws and the rest laying off action to their own accounts. You think they simply watch this cash stream and transactions flow by without dipping into it? In this day and age anything short of sub second responses are simply beyond suspect. This is like the flash boys in the stock market, except the flash is in 30 second increments - so they have time to calculate what to lay off, they solve the pool inefficiencies for us, no use trying to capitalize, they have been doing it for years.

ADW: Ok, so for every $12.4 bet on this horse we will bet $3.24 on this horse.. etc. you get the idea. This is exactly why the swings are so wild at the end, large wagers on a number of horses trigger a wave that is then matched by the ADW and providers as well, etc.

Bettor: What happened to my 5-1, he is 3-1 now? :confused:

[BCOURTNEY]

Not that it helps with odds changes after the break, but the odds shown in TimeformUS PPs are updated as fast as you will find anywhere. I often see the changes there and then the ADWs show the same from 30 seconds to a minute later.

:: tinfoil hat ::

So why does it take anything less than the speed of light to get these electrons to the ADWs? This deserves a hard look, most answers I have heard are excuses not reasons. People quickly dismiss this line of inquiry, it should be a frequent and persistent question asked by every player on the planet.

Why do we trade in a stock market with 1 minute updates is beyond insane.

[BCOURTNEY]

Hello All,

I am an Xpressbet user, and like looking for (pool) market inefficiencies. The pool flashes seems to lag more than ever, even with my manual refresh attempts. I know the simulcast money mixes late, but the xpressbet WPS pool seems to stall for a minute or two between loading and after the start, leaving me surprised by the final WPS handle.
Anybody have experience with Twinspires, Bris or other?

Thanks jh

:: tinfoil hat ::

How about we all organize a weekend phone call with 5 or 10 players or a War Room chat from different providers and we can score them in a few races. What will be interesting is to see if the "lag" time changes, race to race, even for different providers, which would suggest collusion between the data providers and certain unnamed entities. In fact I think one could model a profitable business around just delaying signal to some players and accelerating it to others .. right? Equal access in terms of speed to pool signal is required to conduct a fair market, it should be a legal requirement of operating a pari-mutel pool, is that a law, does anyone know? It was a big issue in the stock market recently, right?

[Fox]

What ever happen to the innovations mentioned in this article:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/81209/tracks-to-soon-launch-added-tote-security

And discussed in this PA thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107316

I can't say I am surprised that nothing came to fruition, but it really sounded like it was a done deal. That was over 2 years ago in 2013 and promised developments in 2014.

Two of the improvements that I was excited about were rapid odds updates near post and also access to the probables in presently blind pools such as the trifecta.

[Cratos]

:: tinfoil hat ::

So why does it take anything less than the speed of light to get these electrons to the ADWs? This deserves a hard look, most answers I have heard are excuses not reasons. People quickly dismiss this line of inquiry, it should be a frequent and persistent question asked by every player on the planet.

Why do we trade in a stock market with 1 minute updates is beyond insane.
I agree with you and a good read about moving data very fast for profit can be found in Brad Komsiuma's expose on front-running on the stock market.

[cj]

:: tinfoil hat ::

Good luck solving this it's the providers and adws and the rest laying off action to their own accounts. You think they simply watch this cash stream and transactions flow by without dipping into it? In this day and age anything short of sub second responses are simply beyond suspect. This is like the flash boys in the stock market, except the flash is in 30 second increments - so they have time to calculate what to lay off, they solve the pool inefficiencies for us, no use trying to capitalize, they have been doing it for years.

ADW: Ok, so for every $12.4 bet on this horse we will bet $3.24 on this horse.. etc. you get the idea. This is exactly why the swings are so wild at the end, large wagers on a number of horses trigger a wave that is then matched by the ADW and providers as well, etc.

Bettor: What happened to my 5-1, he is 3-1 now? :confused:

Wait, what? This is pretty out there IMO.

[Cratos]

Wait, what? This is pretty out there IMO.
Fairly simple with today's Telecom hubs moving away from copper and into fiber optics and other materials that allow for increased transmission volumes at much higher speeds.

Given that phenomena in a disorganized $11B handle market; it is a marriage made in heaven for the informed and equipped.

[formula_2002]

Consider developing formula's that work with the existing time delays. I have perhaps a thousand races of wps and exacta pools down loaded with one to three minuets to post.
I find working with that data is more entertaining compared to working with pp's

Note Horse racing pools are not stock markets. A 15 to 25% take out makes it more like a stock yard. You know what happens to stock yard animals, right :)

[biggestal99]

Fairly simple with today's Telecom hubs moving away from copper and into fiber optics and other materials that allow for increased transmission volumes at much higher speeds.


since I do the ordering of fiber and copper for a major provider in NYC.

used to be fiber 80% Copper 20%

This year

Fiber 100%

everything is fiber now.

Allan

[tanner12oz]

Were lucky we aren't still using a chalkboard in this game

[PICSIX]

Consider developing formula's that work with the existing time delays. I have perhaps a thousand races of wps and exacta pools down loaded with one to three minuets to post.
I find working with that data is more entertaining compared to working with pp's

Note Horse racing pools are not stock markets. A 15 to 25% take out makes it more like a stock yard. You know what happens to stock yard animals, right :)

Have you developed any formulas to determine if any tracks truly have "smart money?"

[NorCalGreg]

:: tinfoil hat ::

Good luck solving this it's the providers and adws and the rest laying off action to their own accounts. You think they simply watch this cash stream and transactions flow by without dipping into it? In this day and age anything short of sub second responses are simply beyond suspect. This is like the flash boys in the stock market, except the flash is in 30 second increments - so they have time to calculate what to lay off, they solve the pool inefficiencies for us, no use trying to capitalize, they have been doing it for years.

ADW: Ok, so for every $12.4 bet on this horse we will bet $3.24 on this horse.. etc. you get the idea. This is exactly why the swings are so wild at the end, large wagers on a number of horses trigger a wave that is then matched by the ADW and providers as well, etc.

Bettor: What happened to my 5-1, he is 3-1 now? :confused:

So...Courtney, If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying certain ADW's--between late "blinks" of the toteboard--are electronically redistributing vast sums of money, to "smooth" the pools out, especially their own accts? How is this money accounted for? It's not? Azeri's 6-1 to 4-1 last blink odds drop--part of that money is gone, never to be explained?
Either this is too difficult for me to comprehend----or hard for me to stomach.
You don't seem to be trying to impress anyone, or grandstanding. You come off very believable--I may need my bottle of Maalox soon.

[cj]

Fairly simple with today's Telecom hubs moving away from copper and into fiber optics and other materials that allow for increased transmission volumes at much higher speeds.

Given that phenomena in a disorganized $11B handle market; it is a marriage made in heaven for the informed and equipped.

He is saying ADWs are actually betting the way I'm reading it in the post I quoted. You believe that?

What I quoted has nothing to do with transmission speeds and certainly didn't mention fiber optics. Reading is fundamental.

[formula_2002]

Have you developed any formulas to determine if any tracks truly have "smart money?"

I think "smart money" is used in some other endeavor.
However I have seen late money, most often in low handle races.

I think is was at Woodbine harness just a few nights ago a horse was 25% of the win pool at 2 mtp and then went to about 68%. Yes it won.
But I have seen such bets on horses lose.

No hard data, but someday if I extract the excel data into a dbase format I will get a better understanding.

[Cratos]

He is saying ADWs are actually betting the way I'm reading it in the post I quoted. You believe that?

What I quoted has nothing to do with transmission speeds and certainly didn't mention fiber optics. Reading is fundamental.
"Reading is fundamental", but understanding is the essence and apparently you clearly don't understand the technology of data transmission; he didn't have to explicitly talk about fiber optics because it was inferred and one whose technical acumen is acute in that area understands that to do what is being said happens because of the loopholes in the system and how data is being currently transmitted in a disorganized oligopoly; and I am not speaking for the poster, but I believe this is the thesis of his argument.

[cj]

"Reading is fundamental", but understanding is the essence and apparently you clearly don't understand the technology of data transmission; he didn't have to explicitly talk about fiber optics because it was inferred and one whose technical acumen is acute in that area understands that to do what is being said happens because of the loopholes in the system and how data is being currently transmitted in a disorganized oligopoly; and I am not speaking for the poster, but I believe this is the thesis of his argument.

He was saying the ADWs are betting. Not sure how you could miss that.

ADW: Ok, so for every $12.4 bet on this horse we will bet $3.24 on this horse.. etc. you get the idea. This is exactly why the swings are so wild at the end, large wagers on a number of horses trigger a wave that is then matched by the ADW and providers as well, etc.

You really believe that?

[Cratos]

He was saying the ADWs are betting. Not sure how you could miss that.



You really believe that?
Yes I do believe that; it is really not that hard to comprehend.
I am sure that the poster have the acumen to take his argument from the "what" to the "why" if he chooses too.

[cj]

Yes I do believe that; it is really not that hard to comprehend.
I am sure that the poster have the acumen to take his argument from the "what" to the "why" if he chooses too.

I don't see how anyone could possibly make a bet with an ADW if they truly believed this. This would be illegal I would think, it would have to be. I understand why a company would do it. That doesn't mean they can legally do it.

[ultracapper]

In the world of stock brokerages, it's known as hypotheticating. They hypothetically give you credit for the stock you have put money up to purchase, it even shows right there on your statement that indeed you do own 50 shares of XYZ Inc. But instead of purchasing the 50 shares and actually holding the shares for you, the brokerage purchases whatever it pleases, gives you credit for what you have ordered, and they hope to use that money you've given them in a way that gets an even larger return, keeping the grease for themselves. They are allowed a small portion of their book value to be used in this manner. Read the fine print in your next brokerage statement.

I would be stunned beyond belief if an ADW was allowed to do this with bets earmarked for US pari-mutuel pools, and I would run like hell if I thought my TVG account was being handled like this.

[biggestal99]

so I am watching the New York stock exchange updating every second and tracks and ADW companies can't because.....

Allan

[RedMeansGo]

I'd like to jump in with a question...

Are there any rules/regulations that prohibit the ADW firm (Twinspires, TVG, Xpressbet, etc) from betting into the pools themselves? I just considered, if the ADW firm locates an account with a "proven record of winning," as defined in their terms (whatever that might be), why not bet with the "proven winner" into that pool?

If any one has any actual knowledge of the legality of this, and/or actual knowledge of this happening, I would be interested in hearing it.

As far as speculation about it happening and whether it should be illegal, I can handle that on my own.

[cj]

In the world of stock brokerages, it's known as hypotheticating. They hypothetically give you credit for the stock you have put money up to purchase, it even shows right there on your statement that indeed you do own 50 shares of XYZ Inc. But instead of purchasing the 50 shares and actually holding the shares for you, the brokerage purchases whatever it pleases, gives you credit for what you have ordered, and they hope to use that money you've given them in a way that gets an even larger return, keeping the grease for themselves. They are allowed a small portion of their book value to be used in this manner. Read the fine print in your next brokerage statement.

I would be stunned beyond belief if an ADW was allowed to do this with bets earmarked for US pari-mutuel pools, and I would run like hell if I thought my TVG account was being handled like this.

Right, this is exactly my point, you just said it better. :)

[johnhannibalsmith]

... one whose technical acumen is acute in that area ...

Is this like an expert or just a really smart bastard on a topic?

[thaskalos]

Is this like an expert or just a really smart bastard on a topic?

Perhaps someone with an advanced academic degree. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

so I am watching the New York stock exchange updating every second and tracks and ADW companies can't because.....

AllanIn the stock market it's necessary. Because you can buy and sell at that price right then.

In ADW world, it's not necessary, because we don't get the odds guaranteed to us at the time we place the bet. Only after the race closes do we know the final price.

Let's say you had tick by tick ADW updates. What good would it really do you versus updates every 20-30 seconds?

[BCOURTNEY]

In the stock market it's necessary. Because you can buy and sell at that price right then.

In ADW world, it's not necessary, because we don't get the odds guaranteed to us at the time we place the bet. Only after the race closes do we know the final price.

Let's say you had tick by tick ADW updates. What good would it really do you versus updates every 20-30 seconds?

If we were playing chess and my computer chess playing program gets constant information to calculate or make a move every second against a human player making a decision once every 20 seconds without access to the same timely information with large gaps in between, whom in turn has to respond immediately...

Are you suggesting that this time lag has no value?

[formula_2002]

Hello All,

I am an Xpressbet user, and like looking for (pool) market inefficiencies. The pool flashes seems to lag more than ever, even with my manual refresh attempts. I know the simulcast money mixes late, but the xpressbet WPS pool seems to stall for a minute or two between loading and after the start, leaving me surprised by the final WPS handle.
Anybody have experience with Twinspires, Bris or other?

Thanks jh
I have an experiment going on in the selection forum that compares the results of my formulas using wps and exacta data downloaded at 4 min to post and then again at 1 min to post.
of course I'm writing this note because in no more than 4 race comparisons, the 4 minuets results EXCEED the 1 minuet to post ;)

they are exacta plays

[PaceAdvantage]

If we were playing chess and my computer chess playing program gets constant information to calculate or make a move every second against a human player making a decision once every 20 seconds without access to the same timely information with large gaps in between, whom in turn has to respond immediately...

Are you suggesting that this time lag has no value?No, I'm asking YOU what value it has to YOU!

As I have already pointed out the obvious...that NONE of us knows EXACTLY what the final price will be on a horse we bet until the race closes, what good, exactly, does it do to have immediate tick-by-tick updates on the prices while the race is open? As opposed to updates every 20-30 seconds?

What EDGE would that give you?