'Heart' in sports, does it exist?

[Stillriledup]

I would say most individual players in team sports have heart and guts, it's hard to get to that level if you don't have heart, especially in physical sports like hockey and football.

When I handicap though, I try and 'remember' situations where teams let me down in the heart department, I file that away and remember it for the future.

But what I'm remembering, is it lack of heart or something else?

Can every player on an individual team have heart but collectively not have it?

What gives a team a 'heartbeat' and what separates the 'gutless' teams from the fighters?

[cj]

Heart absolutely matters. There are plenty of professional athletes that don't really have it. They get there on physical ability alone. They make it through by being the best athlete and don't have to work hard when younger.

[MutuelClerk]

I think heart shows itself more these days because of the money these guys make now. A lot of athletes are very happy to settle and not make the sacrifice. They survive on natural talent. The true leaders of the team have heart.

[Stillriledup]

Excellent posts guys, totally agree.

[Robert Fischer]

Mike Tyson used to say good Cus D'amato quote that "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth ".

Sometimes teams need to regroup after getting punched in the mouth, and sometimes teams need to collectively punch the other team in the mouth.

Heart and leaders definitely come into play, I don't know how much they actually factor in. You have coaching, team strength, etc.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Sometimes this backfires for us in Horse Racing. I know the standard around Chicago was if the jockey wasn't feeling well, they'd try getting on one or two early in the card, and if they still weren't feeling well, they might take off the rest of the day. But that can screw over those who bet on those earlier horses if the jockey wasn't fully ready to ride at normal capabilities.

More than a decade ago, I had gotten word from a track regular and knows everybody that the leading rider at Sportsman's Park, Mark Guidry, was supposedly feeling really sick the morning of their big IL Red Letter Day(?) Stakes Day, and my friend looked at him in the paddock and tought he looked sicker than a dog. In fact, Guidry road and lost the first two races, non-stakes, on the card, both as 4/5 favorites. Of course, I took a stand against him for most of the next few races - and got burnt as he got better/more used to it and won a few of those stakes he didn't want to take off and lose the winning mount fees - oh well.

Anyway, sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. Sometimes you can speculate if they ride a race, do poorly and then take off the rest. Sometimes my friends and I keep notes on those horses ridden and failing earlier before the rider took off all later mounts.

[barahona44]

Heart absolutely matters. There are plenty of professional athletes that don't really have it. They get there on physical ability alone. They make it through by being the best athlete and don't have to work hard when younger.
A good explanation for why too many guys who are very high top 5 draft choices peter out when they get to the big time.The level of competition changes but the players aren't used to
changing their ways and aren't willing to pay the price to make those changes.

[burnsy]

"Heart" plays a huge role in sports but its almost impossible to handicap it. Until you see it in the athlete. You don't see it until the athlete is pushed to the absolute limit. That's what makes the Cus D'Amato quote so true. Heart doesn't show up until things don't go your way....like a punch in the face. Being superior and winning easy does not show heart. Going toe to toe with an equal or a " heavy favorite" and getting the best of them when you could of lied down and gone home when things were not going well......that's heart.

Mike Tyson didn't need much heart. He was stronger than most everyone. On the other hand, Mohamed Ali had a ton of it. He would lose his title and win it back against guys that were bigger and punched harder, with no fear. That's freaking heart! It cost him later in life but he took as many "whoopins" as he dished out and still kept coming, without biting the other guys ear off. Its something athletes don't even know they have until they need it.

When a horse repels multiple challengers and then holds off the late charge....that's heart. Or misses the break and wins anyway, that's heart. To me, it has to be taking on adversity and coming out on top. You guys are on to something, in todays society, its a rare commodity. These guys have the talent, the money, the ability but "heart" is harder to come by. Many of these folks ""mail it in" and wait for the check. Even though they are good at what they do. Pete Rose got black balled for betting, but that son of a bitch had more heart than a whole team of ball players in this day and age. Many of these guys would think he was a "nut" today and he was......He was a "nut" for winning.

[Johnny V]

Heart is the athlete who has overcome adversity. The earlier in his career he has had to do that the better it is IMO. The natural talent that has just breezed by on his ability and skills then "gets punched in the mouth" looks around and does not know what to do and it takes him awhile to get used to that new uncharted territory and hopefully overcome. The pitcher who has had to adapt to losing some of his "stuff" or whatever.
Boxing is a good example. Tyson to me never had heart. Talent yes. Heart no. He did not have to show heart because he rolled over everyone early in his career and never had to overcome any adversity.
Ali had heart. He was floored several times in his early career on the way to the title and overcame it. Frazier same thing. He was sent to the canvas two times in the second round by Bonavena when they were both upcoming contenders and he overcame and won that fight. You either have to or you don't.

[thaskalos]

There is no "heart" in sports anymore, IMO...at least not collectively, as it applies to teams. You see proof of this everywhere you look. You see great teams take 25-point leads in the first quarter of games, against mediocre competition...and then struggle to hold on for the win, in OVERTIME. One team goes to the locker rooms at halftime...and a totally DIFFERENT team comes out 10 minutes later. Sometimes it's as if the two teams switched jerseys during the intermission. Players call it the "ability to play all-out for 48 minutes, 60 minutes...or whatever"...but there is a better name for it. HEART! The same "heart" that propelled the athlete to the grandest stage in the first place.

IMO...the big-money contracts have gone a long way towards ripping that "heart" OUT of our teams. You see it when a quarterback throws a silly interception at a crucial point of a close game...and he trots off the field with a grin on his face. Or when the coach whose team is down three touchdowns at the half, makes it a point to stop and give an accounting of the events to the pretty sideline reporter...instead of using that time to organize things with his struggling team.

When your paycheck comes from TV, then you are not an "athlete"; you are an ENTERTAINER. And those two are WORLDS apart.

[cj]

There is no "heart" in sports anymore, IMO...at least not collectively, as it applies to teams. You see proof of this everywhere you look. You see great teams take 25-point leads in the first quarter of games, against mediocre competition...and then struggle to hold on for the win, in OVERTIME. One team goes to the locker rooms at halftime...and a totally DIFFERENT team comes out 10 minutes later. Sometimes it's as if the two teams switched jerseys during the intermission. Players call it the "ability to play all-out for 48 minutes, 60 minutes...or whatever"...but there is a better name for it. HEART! The same "heart" that propelled the athlete to the grandest stage in the first place.

IMO...the big-money contracts have gone a long way towards ripping that "heart" OUT of our teams. You see it when a quarterback throws a silly interception at a crucial point of a close game...and he trots off the field with a grin on his face. Or when the coach whose team is down three touchdowns at the half, makes it a point to stop and give an accounting of the events to the pretty sideline reporter...instead of using that time to organize things with his struggling team.

When your paycheck comes from TV, then you are not an "athlete"; you are an ENTERTAINER. And those two are WORLDS apart.

Some players have heart. Steph Curry is one of them, Russell Westbrook another, and so is Tom Brady. The Royals, as a team, have heart. It isn't gone, the cream rises to the top.

[thaskalos]

Some players have heart. Steph Curry is one of them, Russell Westbrook another, and so is Tom Brady. The Royals, as a team, have heart. It isn't gone, the cream rises to the top.
Find me a team with "heart" in this year's NFL. Was there even a single team which wasn't afflicted by a "Jekyll and Hyde" personality this year? And I'm not talking about the types of games which can be attributed to the "parity of the league". I am talking about cases where teams undergo a complete METAMORPHOSIS...from one week to the other.

[Stillriledup]

Find me a team with "heart" in this year's NFL. Was there even a single team which wasn't afflicted by a "Jekyll and Hyde" personality this year? And I'm not talking about the types of games which can be attributed to the "parity of the league". I am talking about cases where teams undergo a complete METAMORPHOSIS...from one week to the other.

I talk about this here, nothing has changed, WHERE IS THE HEART?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108131&highlight=Football

[thaskalos]

I talk about this here, nothing has changed, WHERE IS THE HEART?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108131&highlight=Football

The one team that I thought had "heart", played a game at HOME yesterday...where they said that they wouldn't rest ANYONE...because they had a "statement" to make. And they got blown out by a team that had been written off earlier in the year...but which will now probably become the Super Bowl FAVORITE.

And I love all the EXCUSES that we invent in order to explain this bizarre team behavior. Seattle supposedly "underachieved" earlier in the year, because Kam Chancellor was hurt...and he proved that he was the "rock" of the Seattle defense, because the team became dominant as soon as Chancellor returned to the field.

And who was missing from the team yesterday...in what was one of the most dominating performances that we've ever seen? Kam Chancellor! :)

[Stillriledup]

The one team that I thought had "heart", played a game at HOME yesterday...where they said that they wouldn't rest ANYONE...because they had a "statement" to make. And they got blown out by a team that had been written off earlier in the year...but which will now probably become the Super Bowl FAVORITE.

And I love all the EXCUSES that we invent in order to explain this bizarre team behavior. Seattle supposedly "underachieved" earlier in the year, because Kam Chancellor was hurt...and he proved that he was the "rock" of the Seattle defense, because the team became dominant as soon as Chancellor returned to the field.

And who was missing from the team yesterday...in what was one of the most dominating performances that we've ever seen? Kam Chancellor! :)

Interesting.

Seems like a Seattle Pats rematch has a chance to happen.

[thaskalos]

Some players have heart. Steph Curry is one of them, Russell Westbrook another, and so is Tom Brady. The Royals, as a team, have heart. It isn't gone, the cream rises to the top.
Here is a perfect illustration of a "very good team"...with no "heart".

Oklahoma City losing by 9 at home, late in the game against Sacramento...as 8 point favorites.

What do Kamikaze pilots do on their days off? They lay the points with the Thunder. :)

[Stillriledup]

Charlotte is the most gutless team in the NBA. Bar none.

[cj]

Here is a perfect illustration of a "very good team"...with no "heart".

Oklahoma City losing by 9 at home, late in the game against Sacramento...as 8 point favorites.

What do Kamikaze pilots do on their days off? They lay the points with the Thunder. :)

I'll say this for the Thunder, they always play hard and they don't give up. This was probably the worst game I've seen them play in a long time. The thing with the Thunder is that they are two superstars and a bunch of role players. When one of the superstars is out, the other better play great or they are going to struggle. Westbrook had a bad shooting night, though he certainly played with heart, and they lost.

I'd say in this case it was more of a bad line. The Thunder seems to be a team the public likes and they get overbet. I'm learning that this year since I've actually paid attention to point spreads. Quick example, I was shocked to see the Clippers were only 2.5 point favorites over the Blazers tonight. The Blazers STINK. You would never see that line for OKC against a bad team.

[thaskalos]

I'll say this for the Thunder, they always play hard and they don't give up. This was probably the worst game I've seen them play in a long time. The thing with the Thunder is that they are two superstars and a bunch of role players. When one of the superstars is out, the other better play great or they are going to struggle. Westbrook had a bad shooting night, though he certainly played with heart, and they lost.

I'd say in this case it was more of a bad line. The Thunder seems to be a team the public likes and they get overbet. I'm learning that this year since I've actually paid attention to point spreads. Quick example, I was shocked to see the Clippers were only 2.5 point favorites over the Blazers tonight. The Blazers STINK. You would never see that line for OKC against a bad team.

Is Portland worse than Sacramento?

I agree that you'll never see the Thunder at -2.5 against a bad team, as the Clippers were...but that's only because the Thunder is regarded as a better team than the Clippers. My own line makes the Thunder a 5 point favorite over the Clippers, on a neutral court.

[Stillriledup]

Is Portland worse than Sacramento?

I agree that you'll never see the Thunder at -2.5 against a bad team, as the Clippers were...but that's only because the Thunder is regarded as a better team than the Clippers. My own line makes the Thunder a 5 point favorite over the Clippers, on a neutral court.

The Clippers are better than the Thunder. Butttttt, you didnt hear that from me. ;)

Btw, Portland isn't that bad, they play hard, they were ok tonight all things considered, if the Clippers didnt play well they would have lost.

[cj]

The Clippers are better than the Thunder. Butttttt, you didnt hear that from me. ;)

Btw, Portland isn't that bad, they play hard, they were ok tonight all things considered, if the Clippers didnt play well they would have lost.

We'll see if the Clippers are better, I doubt it personally. Already beat LAC on the road.

Come on, Portland stinks.

As for Thask's question, Sacramento is better IMO. They took Dallas to double OT the next night on the road, second of a back to back, without Rondo. They have a lot of talent if they can ever put it together. Portland has two good guards and that is about it.

My only point was teams sometimes just play bad games. Losing to the Kings had nothing to do with heart. I've been going to OKC games since the inception, nearly all of them, and have watched every single game. Maybe twice in that time I've thought they just mailed it in.

[thaskalos]

My only point was teams sometimes just play bad games. Losing to the Kings had nothing to do with heart. I've been going to OKC games since the inception, nearly all of them, and have watched every single game. Maybe twice in that time I've thought they just mailed it in.
I was only kidding with that "heart" remark. There is great inconsistency in the performances of most of these NBA teams...and the excuses that we sometimes come up with to explain these improbable outcomes are just that -- EXCUSES.

Portland plays horribly for several games, and just when you make up your mind that they are a bad team...they string together several improbable victories. Phoenix showed convincing signs that they might be the NBA's worst team...but they won impressively last night...and who knows what we can expect from them from now on? Utah is decimated by injuries...but, just when you write them off...they start winning again. Sacramento sucked...but then they started blowing out teams that they had no business beating. The Bulls, Indiana, Houston, Toronto, Memphis, the Clippers, Boston, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington...etc...all supposedly "good teams", who lose game after game that they should, by all accounts, be able to win.

I blame the big-money contracts...but what do I know? The answer could easily be something that none of us have ever thought of.

[cj]

I blame the big-money contracts...but what do I know? The answer could easily be something that none of us have ever thought of.

I think there is a lot more parity in the NBA today than many people realize, outside of Golden State and San Antonio.

[thaskalos]

I think there is a lot more parity in the NBA today than many people realize, outside of Golden State and San Antonio.
True.

But when a team like Sacramento can go into Toronto, Indiana and Oklahoma City, and win...I can't say that this is just "parity" at work.

[Stillriledup]

True.

But when a team like Sacramento can go into Toronto, Indiana and Oklahoma City, and win...I can't say that this is just "parity" at work.

SAc isn't the best example because they have very good players who are head cases. They now have a PG who has the ability to play an elite game, so Sacs "poor record" isn't due to a weak roster, it's due to heart and mind. When the heart and mind are right, these guys are decent not to mention have a legendary coach. Look how much improved phi is with the addition of Ish Smith, it's night and day, so if you get an upgrade at PG, you can do some damage.

[Stillriledup]

We'll see if the Clippers are better, I doubt it personally. Already beat LAC on the road.

Come on, Portland stinks.

As for Thask's question, Sacramento is better IMO. They took Dallas to double OT the next night on the road, second of a back to back, without Rondo. They have a lot of talent if they can ever put it together. Portland has two good guards and that is about it.

My only point was teams sometimes just play bad games. Losing to the Kings had nothing to do with heart. I've been going to OKC games since the inception, nearly all of them, and have watched every single game. Maybe twice in that time I've thought they just mailed it in.

Portland seems to have more heart and they have Lillard, it's close, I wouldn't say sac is better than Portland and if they are, it's not by much.

[cj]

Basketball is an extremely physical game, and these guys put a ton of wear and tear on their bodies in an 82 game season. Sometimes the heart is willing, but the body just doesn't cooperate.

[thaskalos]

Basketball is an extremely physical game, and these guys put a ton of wear and tear on their bodies in an 82 game season. Sometimes the heart is willing, but the body just doesn't cooperate.
Yes...but, looking at it another way...basketball should be the one sport in which the "better" team should be able to assert its superiority over the weaker team, to a greater extent than in any other sport. Every team has more than a hundred scoring opportunities in a given game...and the game's outcome doesn't come down to a single play, or a single mistake...as it does in other sports.

A soccer game can be lost because of a single defender mistake...and a football game can be lost because of a single quarterback interception. But in a basketball game...over a hundred shots are taken by each team...and the "luck factor" is greatly diminished.

I understand about the wear and tear caused by the 82-game season...but this affects every team alike.

[cj]

Yes...but, looking at it another way...basketball should be the one sport in which the "better" team should be able to assert its superiority over the weaker team, to a greater extent than in any other sport. Every team has more than a hundred scoring opportunities in a given game...and the game's outcome doesn't come down to a single play, or a single mistake...as it does in other sports.

A soccer game can be lost because of a single defender mistake...and a football game can be lost because of a single quarterback interception. But in a basketball game...over a hundred shots are taken by each team...and the "luck factor" is greatly diminished.

I understand about the wear and tear caused by the 82-game season...but this affects every team alike.

Yeah, but not everybody is in the same cycle and travel schedule, and even the best players have off shooting nights even when feeling good. I've heard KD say several times, "shots felt great just didn't go in"...has nothing to do with desire IMO. I've been there myself though obviously nowhere near that level of play.

[Stillriledup]

There are nfl 2 teams left with heart. Seattle and New England. Woulda been 3 if GB had won, but now we are down to 2.

[Stillriledup]

Charlotte is the most gutless team in the NBA. Bar none.

Funny how if you replaced NBA with NFL in the above sentence you might not be far off SRU. :lol:

[tucker6]

Funny how if you replaced NBA with NFL in the above sentence you might not be far off SRU. :lol:
the water maybe??

[Grits]

Funny how if you replaced NBA with NFL in the above sentence you might not be far off SRU. :lol:

No, you're way off.