Kerry on Iraq

[schweitz]

John Kerry speaking before the Senate on Oct. 9,2002.

"It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to the families of suicide murderers in Israel. WE SHOULD NOT GO TO WAR BECAUSE THESE THINGS ARE IN THE PAST, BUT WE SHOULD BE PREPARED TO GO TO WAR BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY TELL US ABOUT THE FUTURE.'

At least at one time he said something I can agree with.

[cj]

Like most libs, he says what he thinks will help him in the polls, not what he really believes. He obvioulsy attended the Gore school of flip-flop.

[Secretariat]

I guess I don't see the flip flop there..."we should be prepared to go to war" No one denies that...If you look at Bush's letter to Congress to go to war with Iraq specifically he ties in reference to 911. He seems to be flip flopping on that claim now.

Bush promised to work with the UN and allow inspections to run their course....Instead problem is Bush got impatient and flip flopped on that promise he made to Congress. Kerry's disagreement was that Bush's impatience has led to an unnecessary and costly war for which the Bush admin reasons keep continually changing. I've heard so many different reasons from this admin from one month to the next, I am not sure what they beleive anymore. Talk about flip flop.

[Secretariat]

I've listened to so many of these ridiculous flip flop claims on Kerry and since it seems to be a Bush campaign tactic I thought we'd look at who the real flip flopper is:

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

1. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES..."What I think the president ought to do is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price."

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds."

2. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004..."We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04"

…BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 “I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops.”

3. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'...“Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference.”

…BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: “Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony.”

4. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good."

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels."

5. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE"U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers."

6. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything."

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people."

7. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories…for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons. And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out."

8. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue."

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection."

9. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'"

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA “I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him… I truly am not that concerned about him.”

10. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... ", Governor Bush will work to…establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide."

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act."

11. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency."

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction."

12. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11."

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks."

13. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks."

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work."

14. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday."

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock."

15. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into."

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife."

16. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road."

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people."

17. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror."

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11."

18. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam."

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written."

19. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area."

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East."

20. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression."

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law."

-----------------------------------

Just think, there are some serious and current "flip-flops" in there, no distortion necessary. And these folks are wailing about whether Kerry used the term "medals" or "ribbons", and hope the American public is stupid enough to be manipulated into thinking that's worse.

Here's a bunch more from a message board, some of them I'm not sure about the facts surrounding them but here we go anyway just for kicks (hell it can't be any more of a stretch than the right's attack on Kerry):

Bush is for arsenic in drinking water. Then he's against it. Then he's FOR mercury in the drinking water.

Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.

Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.

Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it (but only if Dick can hold his hand while he testifies).

Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.

Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.

Bush is for a "humbler" foreign policy; then he implements an arrogant one.

Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.

Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.

Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a road map and a Palestinian State.

Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.

Bush first says hell provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.

Bush first says that help is on the way to the military. Then he cuts benefits and makes them pay for their own food while waiting for artificial limbs and kevlar vests.

Bush - "The Clinotn Administration spend too much time worrying about AlQaeda". Bush - "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden". Bush - "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care".

Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island and guts the Clean Air Act.

Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.

Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will.

Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then says he shouldn't have.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote.

Bush said the "Mission Accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. But after meeting with Presidente Fox, he's against it.

Bush is against Rice testifying, then he's for it.

Bush is for 365 day limits on military service in Iraq, now he's against it.

Bush is for using stress positioning techniques for interrogation, then he's against it.

He said we will stay the course in Falluja, then he gave it to the Ba'athists.

He said Al Sadr will be arrested and tried for murder. Then he let him off the hook.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority & we will not rest until we find him." -George W. Bush, Sept. 13, 2001

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea & I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." -George W. Bush, March 13, 2002

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/03/13/Bush.news.conference/

[schweitz]

Originally posted by Secretariat
I guess I don't see the flip flop there...

Flip-Flop?--I just said that at one time he said something that I could agree with. But now that you mention it I guess you're right---he has kind of flip-floped.

[JustRalph]

it is easy to post those things when you leave out the changes in conditions that allow him to make administrative changes.....

As in N.Korea. They agreed to certain things that brought us to the table to negotiate. Bush allowed that to happen. They met our demands. You can post his original position and then post the different position on a bunch of things, but you leave out the middle.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustRalph
it is easy to post those things when you leave out the changes in conditions that allow him to make administrative changes.....

...You can post his original position and then post the different position on a bunch of things, but you leave out the middle.


Thank you JR you have just made my point. But what applies to Bush certainly applies to Kerry doesn't it then?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Thank you JR you have just made my point. But what applies to Bush certainly applies to Kerry doesn't it then?

Oh...I agree that they do it to Kerry too........you can't spend all that time in the Senate and not be setup for this kind of stuff.

[Suff]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Like most libs,

No soup for you.

[Tom]

Sec. two questions"

Q1 - Did you forget the prior to the war, SH refused to let the UN inspectors do their jobs?

Q2 - Do you think anyone really reads those loooooong posts?

:confused:

[Figman]

How long are they?......Sec is one of the off the wall posters "culled" from my computer.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Tom
Sec. two questions"

Q1 - Did you forget the prior to the war, SH refused to let the UN inspectors do their jobs?


:confused:

Not really... he told them they had already destroyed all his weapons that fell under the resolution so there was no need for further inspections,,,

Turns out he was telling the truth

[Tom]

But he had no right to call the shots.
Let's assume he did not have any WMD for sake of discussion.
Then is he not the world's biggest idiot ever to allow the invasion to take place when all he had to do was comply and prove it to everyone?
He would still be in power today had he called Bush on the threat of war. He alone could have stopped the whole damn thing.
Now, I thinkg it is only approriat ehtat he be beheaded on live TV. I will pony up whatever they charge.