Remington Park Plans To Report Horse Weights

[whodoyoulike]

Per BloodHorse reported today.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96634/remington-park-plans-to-report-horse-weights


... Wells said it's simple information to collect and provides handicappers an extra tool while giving interesting information to new fans.

"It's one of the keys to transparency," Wells said. "Secondly it's a very important handicapping factor. And finally it's something that even novices can relate to." ...

I'm now convinced "people in the industry" do read the posts on this website. Good for Remington Park for taking the lead. And, there really shouldn't be any resistance for other tracks to follow since, after all "it's simple information to collect" which we've wondered about on here.

[Cratos]

Per BloodHorse reported today.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96634/remington-park-plans-to-report-horse-weights




I'm now convinced "people in the industry" do read the posts on this website. Good for Remington Park for taking the lead. And, there really shouldn't be any resistance for other tracks to follow since, after all "it's simple information to collect" which we've wondered about on here.
Hats off to Remington; a small step for the industry, but a giant step for the bettor.

[whodoyoulike]

Cratos, I was thinking of you when I read the article.

[schweitz]

Remington was doing this back in the 90s. I guess they stopped some point.

[lamboguy]

Hats off to Remington; a small step for the industry, but a giant step for the bettor.this is no small step, its a giant one. i guarantee this will add at least 25% to the handle next year.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I know the physiology of a dog and a horse are different, but doesn't greyhound racing report weights? When the greyhound's weight moves up or down, are there predictable performance changes? Maybe it's a bad analogy.

[cj]

this is no small step, its a giant one. i guarantee this will add at least 25% to the handle next year.

I'd take that bet, no way it adds 25%.

That said, glad it will be available.

[PhantomOnTour]

So, the horses will step on a scale in the pre race and that weight will be displayed somehow?
I suppose players can then compare the weight to pasr races, if they've been keeping records, but what about horses who ran at a different track in their last race? Aren't weights useless without access to past weights?
This will be good when other tracks follow suit, but I doubt many will.

[Cratos]

this is no small step, its a giant one. i guarantee this will add at least 25% to the handle next year.
I didn't make myself clear; the "small step" was referring to Remington being a small racetrack and the impact to the industry overall will not have the same impact as if NYRA had made such decision.

However I agree with you that the bettor will benefit and the handle at Remington should see an increase.

[raybo]

Cratos, I was thinking of you when I read the article.

I read it yesterday, and thought immediately of Cratos (although I was also thinking of myself, too, if it ever becomes widely distributed in the proper formats).

Unfortunately, other tracks will have to incorporate it, and Equibase will have to cooperate to make it available to the various data vendors, and then the vendors will have to cooperate and make it available in their products, and unless you want to do the calculations manually (for the various performance/energy/form analysis functions) , data files must be available. :bang:

[raybo]

this is no small step, its a giant one. i guarantee this will add at least 25% to the handle next year.

Next year? :lol:

[lamboguy]

I'd take that bet, no way it adds 25%.

That said, glad it will be available.with them dealing mostly to simulcast, having a wide verity of claiming races and running at night, it should add something by that move. there will be more claiming and that usually adds to handle.

in my opinion it will do more for handle than raising purses.

[raybo]

The real value will only be realized after each horse racing has several past race weights available. Without past weights available, the value is minimal, if at all.

A big hit would happen if each horse was weighed before every workout and before each race! Now, that would be valuable info!!

[Tom]

Like Trakus, this will be very limited in number of tracks and acceptable distribution of the data will be even more limited.

It will end up being a bit of information you can use when you play Remington.
Sliced bread is safe.

[raybo]

Like Trakus, this will be very limited in number of tracks and acceptable distribution of the data will be even more limited.

It will end up being a bit of information you can use when you play Remington.
Sliced bread is safe.

I agree, the entire industry will have to get behind this before it has any chance of impacting us significantly as handicappers. This is a factor that should have been available to the general racing public decades ago. There's no excuse for it not already being available. They weigh the jocks, pre-race and post-race, and people use that data frequently, but with the horse's current health status in question constantly, in the minds of handicappers, it never entered the industry's mindset at all? Ridiculous!

[cj]

I agree, the entire industry will have to get behind this before it has any chance of impacting us significantly as handicappers. This is a factor that should have been available to the general racing public decades ago. There's no excuse for it not already being available. They weigh the jocks, pre-race and post-race, and people use that data frequently, but with the horse's current health status in question constantly, in the minds of handicappers, it never entered the industry's mindset at all? Ridiculous!

Just a prediction, it won't tell us much about form. I remember when they did this at Freehold years ago and you'd see big swings in weight, but they didn't really have any correlation to performance.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Just a prediction, it won't tell us much about form. I remember when they did this at Freehold years ago and you'd see big swings in weight, but they didn't really have any correlation to performance.

Weight shifts are an excellent indicator of form on the Hong Kong circuit. Knowing a horse's size also (in theory) can help determine trip, though the ratio in differences isn't nearly as great as puppy racing.

I'll be interested to see if the magnitude of weight shifts provide any indication on differences in race day meds.

[Cratos]

Weight shifts are an excellent indicator of form on the Hong Kong circuit. Knowing a horse's size also (in theory) can help determine trip, though the ratio in differences isn't nearly as great as puppy racing.

I'll be interested to see if the magnitude of weight shifts provide any indication on differences in race day meds.
Weight (mass) is a fundamental input in determining the output of a moving object; that is physics 101.

However the "wannabes" is hung up on using an output, speed which show nothing without the required inputs.

[ronsmac]

Weight (mass) is a fundamental input in determining the output of a moving object; that is physics 101.

However the "wannabes" is hung up on using an output, speed which show nothing without the required inputs.
It'll be difficult to quantify without expert visual analysis which most of us don't have. Is the added weight muscle,water or fat? The same thing with the weight loss.

[Cratos]

It'll be difficult to quantify without expert visual analysis which most of us don't have. Is the added weight muscle,water or fat? The same thing with the weight loss.
Wrong, quantitated mass doesn't need visual inspection. Mass is mass and it doesn't make any difference of its composition in determining its quantity.

What I believe you are attempting to debate is the disposition of mass over time with respect to distance.

This would take us from the mechanics of physics to thermodynamics to calculate burn rates which at this time is beyond the thesis of this thread.

[Tom]

However the "wannabes" is hung up on using an output, speed which show nothing without the required inputs.

And yet it is used successfully ever day by many people.To say it shows nothing only shows how little some people know about the game. They just wanna pretend they know it all.

[TJDave]

Remington was doing this back in the 90s. I guess they stopped some point.

Wasn't that part of the data set from the short-lived DRF competitor?

Can't even remember the name.

[Stillriledup]

I approve. Hopefully other tracks will follow suit.

[Cratos]

It is very interesting that the poster on this forum who probably have more posts than any other never say anything but rhetoric.

However to this poster if speed is alone is as successful as you claim then prove it with fact.

[ronsmac]

Wrong, quantitated mass doesn't need visual inspection. Mass is mass and it doesn't make any difference of its composition in determining its quantity.

What I believe you are attempting to debate is the disposition of mass over time with respect to distance.

This would take us from the mechanics of physics to thermodynamics to calculate burn rates which at this time is beyond the thesis of this thread.You know more than me. I'll take an in shape horse you take a skinny horse. Good luck.

[cj]

Wasn't that part of the data set from the short-lived DRF competitor?

Can't even remember the name.

Racing Times...not sure they ever published weight though, but I could be wrong.

[Cratos]

You know more than me. I'll take an in shape horse you take a skinny horse. Good luck.
This is not about who know the most; it is about the weight of the horse from a quantitative value.

Also I believe what you are saying about the difference between water weight and muscle weight, but that is as I stated a different calculation.

[whodoyoulike]

I know the physiology of a dog and a horse are different, but doesn't greyhound racing report weights? When the greyhound's weight moves up or down, are there predictable performance changes? Maybe it's a bad analogy.

This reference to greyhounds is mentioned in the article.

[whodoyoulike]

I read it yesterday, and thought immediately of Cratos (although I was also thinking of myself, too, if it ever becomes widely distributed in the proper formats).

Unfortunately, other tracks will have to incorporate it, and Equibase will have to cooperate to make it available to the various data vendors, and then the vendors will have to cooperate and make it available in their products, and unless you want to do the calculations manually (for the various performance/energy/form analysis functions) , data files must be available. :bang:

Sorry, I also thought of you also since you, Cratos and myself plus several others have been proponents of this type of info being made available in the pp's. We've discussed the availability of this info since it's currently avail in HKJC pp info and that it should be easily implemented. In the article they were going to pass the info along to Equibase if I remember correctly. Hopefully, they take the lead because it's usefulness will only be realized if the practice becomes widespread, IMO.

[schweitz]

Racing Times...not sure they ever published weight though, but I could be wrong.

I don't think they did either. Remington had prior weights on their racing programs (at least for horses who had raced at Remington before).

[whodoyoulike]

Just a prediction, it won't tell us much about form. I remember when they did this at Freehold years ago and you'd see big swings in weight, but they didn't really have any correlation to performance.

I don't even remember a track called Freehold but was the info being provided over a lengthy period of time.

And, what about horses shipping into the track were they reported with no info?

I remember the Racing Times and can't recall a horse's weight being reported in them.

[whodoyoulike]

You know more than me. I'll take an in shape horse you take a skinny horse. Good luck.

I don't believe this is what Cratos or anyone else has suggested.

[BreadandButter]

I know the physiology of a dog and a horse are different, but doesn't greyhound racing report weights? When the greyhound's weight moves up or down, are there predictable performance changes? Maybe it's a bad analogy.

Greyhounds can't drop more than appx. 2.5 lbs and not be scr unless they are designated as weight losers (at one time they would carry the WL designation in the program). The racing sec will try and get those greyhounds into earlier on the card so they aren't sitting waiting as long. These dogs often drop the weight in the few hours preceding the race in the ginny pit etc.

Likewise with weight gains, i.e., a greyhound can only go up or down a few pounds off their designated weight with the racing sec. You won't see one run at 65lbs and then at 72lbs the following week.

That being said racing weights with greyhounds can be used as a strong handicapping aid in regards to specific kennel maintenance that is required and done by all racing kennels to keep the greyhounds active. This doesn't translate to horses as they are not carnivores.

[maddog42]

Just a prediction, it won't tell us much about form. I remember when they did this at Freehold years ago and you'd see big swings in weight, but they didn't really have any correlation to performance.

I don't know about Freehold, but The Woodlands racetrack in KC did show weight at the track on their monitors in the late 80's. I was driving up on weekends from okc and making notes and trying to correlate weight with performance. I was using Sartin pace ratings and found them much more predictive, but my data was limited to only a few pages of hand written notes and there WERE gaps in my notes about weight. I don't think weight will be the panacea that many here think it will be, but it can't hurt. I eventually only used it as a partial elimination factor with mixed results.

[Tom]

It is very interesting that the poster on this forum who probably have more posts than any other never say anything but rhetoric.

However to this poster if speed is alone is as successful as you claim then prove it with fact.

Lots of studies out there showing speed figures work. Where is your proof of this inane statement?

YOU are the one making the claims YOU prove it, or just disappear again, as always.

However the "wannabes" is hung up on using an output, speed which show nothing without the required inputs.

Put up or shut up. Your constant put down of anyone not doing it your way is just classless. And not true.

[cj]

I don't even remember a track called Freehold but was the info being provided over a lengthy period of time.

And, what about horses shipping into the track were they reported with no info?

I remember the Racing Times and can't recall a horse's weight being reported in them.

It is a harness track. Horses raced basically every week and they did it for a few years at least. Only weights for horses that raced at Freehold were reported, but that was the vast majority of them.

[whodoyoulike]

It is a harness track. Horses raced basically every week and they did it for a few years at least. Only weights for horses that raced at Freehold were reported, but that was the vast majority of them.

I'm unfamiliar with Harness racing. Again, for TB's it's usefulness IMO, will depend on it being widespread reporting.

[maddog42]

It is a harness track. Horses raced basically every week and they did it for a few years at least. Only weights for horses that raced at Freehold were reported, but that was the vast majority of them.

I believe there was another non-harness track showing weight besides The Woodlands at one time. Been at least 20+ years ago.

[cj]

I'm unfamiliar with Harness racing. Again, for TB's it's usefulness IMO, will depend on it being widespread reporting.

I certainly don't mind more information, the more the merrier for me. I would say it needs to be widespread, and more importantly, accurate and consistent. Are we going to get weights from the morning, as they enter the paddock, or some other time?

[cj]

I believe there was another non-harness track showing weight besides The Woodlands at one time. Been at least 20+ years ago.


I remember the Woodlands by name, but that is about it.

[raybo]

I certainly don't mind more information, the more the merrier for me. I would say it needs to be widespread, and more importantly, accurate and consistent. Are we going to get weights from the morning, as they enter the paddock, or some other time?

As far as handicapping goes, IMO, they should be weighed in time for that data to get into the PPs, the same as when meds and equipment are reported to Equibase, and again before they reach the paddock, and reported with the late changes, like jockey changes, overweights etc..

[whodoyoulike]

I certainly don't mind more information, the more the merrier for me. I would say it needs to be widespread, and more importantly, accurate and consistent. Are we going to get weights from the morning, as they enter the paddock, or some other time?

As far as Remington, I thought the plan mentioned in the article was, as the horses entered the paddock and then there would be an announcement on track. Someone can correct me if I'm incorrect since I'm going off my failing memory.

[ronsmac]

I don't believe this is what Cratos or anyone else has suggested.The point I was making is all weight is not the same. There's a reason trainers used steroids to build muscle for about 40 years or so. Water weight and fat don't help you run faster muscle does. But hey if anyone can make money using the horses weight without knowing the individual horse has all my respect.

[Valuist]

This will be a big angle for horses making their 3 year old debut off a lengthy layoff.

[Tom]

And going into the BC after a hard year.

It could be a good component of form for individual horses, but until ti get put in the PPs, it will be hard to use. MY two cents, no more improvements will be made to racing information. Trakus seems stalled - anyone hear of any track considering it? I think we have peaked for information.

[Stillriledup]

I know the physiology of a dog and a horse are different, but doesn't greyhound racing report weights? When the greyhound's weight moves up or down, are there predictable performance changes? Maybe it's a bad analogy.

I was under the impression that the weight of the dog needed to be consistent so that trainers couldn't let the dog overeat or overdrink right before a race and run with a full belly full of food/water which might make them run slower. If they're always at the same weight you know that no manipulation from food/fluids has taken place.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I was under the impression that the weight of the dog needed to be consistent so that trainers couldn't let the dog overeat or overdrink right before a race and run with a full belly full of food/water which might make them run slower. If they're always at the same weight you know that no manipulation from food/fluids has taken place.

I'd be stunned if this was true. What's to prevent a kennel from not watering their dog for a day, then giving it three bowls of water prior to the weigh in to stay "consistent"?

Unlike horses, the weight of a dog is a HUGE trip handicapping factor. Take that 89 lb speed dog from the 8 box and just watch him crush his opponents to the inside......

[Greybase]

I'd be stunned if this was true. What's to prevent a kennel from not watering their dog for a day, then giving it three bowls of water prior to the weigh in to stay "consistent"?
Right, the whole weight thing in greyhound racing was set-up 60+ years ago along with the Grading System, and Lockout Kennel "Ginny Pit", just a few of the built-in protections that made dogs different from horses.

The whole game was developed and sold as a "bettor" alternative to T-breds. Faster, and more fun without those jockeys throwing races.. And the dogs caught on BIG, in Florida and California, Chicago, Boston, and began moving to other states... drove the Horse people absolutely NUTS! :D

Imagine FIVE dog tracks around L.A. and S.F.. after a few short years the Hollywood horse owners used their money and influence.. In the 1940s Gov. Earl Warren had his boys raid the dog tracks "Take your dogs and get OUT of California!" 60 years later greyhound racing is ALMOST gone in the U.S.A.

Weight is mainly another distraction in handicapping, IMHO - A minor factor at best, dogs or horses.. hardly worth the time you'd spend following weight changes. Hot trainers, in both breeds operate regardless of weight as the animals are routinely juiced and stiffed. Woopee, Remington announces "Weight" and the pubic says ho-hum... Meanwhile Karl Broberg dominates off a claim. Super trainers in dogs same thing!! :eek: