Question about Drug testing and purses

[dragon49]

I am curious about how the system works:

Am I correctly guessing that drug testing results come out before prizes clear? If so, what happens to that part of the purse, when a horse tests hot? Does it go to the next finisher? Does it go the track?

[chadk66]

generally yes. And they just move everybody up one step in the payouts. At least anywhere that I've raced.

[dragon49]

generally yes. And they just move everybody up one step in the payouts. At least anywhere that I've raced.


Thanks for the quick reply.

You stated, "At least anywhere that I've raced."

Are you an owner, or a trainer, or a jockey?

[v j stauffer]

I am curious about how the system works:

Am I correctly guessing that drug testing results come out before prizes clear? If so, what happens to that part of the purse, when a horse tests hot? Does it go to the next finisher? Does it go the track?

Purse money is distributed before any findings on a test.

If the horse comes back for any positive the investigators will initiate a complaint packet and investigate the possible infraction.

The complaint will be mailed to the address of the defendant as well as a person to person serving at the barn of the suspected violator.

An extensive barn search will then take place with the accused there to facilitate and answer questions.

The accused will be asked if they wish to exercise their right to a split sample.

Following will include many interviews with anybody that might have knowledge of the case.

A hearing date will be set.

The case by the board will be presented by the investigators to the stewards.

They will hear the case and usually a couple of days later issue a decision.

If the complainant is found guilty they have 72 hours to file an appeal.

If the sanctions involve a re-distribution of purse money the paymaster will be notified on the day the ruling is published.

Any funds that were accrued from the race are expected to be returned quickly including fees paid to jockeys and their agents.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for the quick reply.

You stated, "At least anywhere that I've raced."

Are you an owner, or a trainer, or a jockey?

He's a retired trainer.

[Donttellmeshowme]

All states and tracks probably have different rules but generally if your horse goes to the test barn you dont get any purse revenue till your test comes back clean.

[burnsy]

Purse money is distributed before any findings on a test.

If the horse comes back for any positive the investigators will initiate a complaint packet and investigate the possible infraction.

The complaint will be mailed to the address of the defendant as well as a person to person serving at the barn of the suspected violator.

An extensive barn search will then take place with the accused there to facilitate and answer questions.

The accused will be asked if they wish to exercise their right to a split sample.

Following will include many interviews with anybody that might have knowledge of the case.

A hearing date will be set.

The case by the board will be presented by the investigators to the stewards.

They will hear the case and usually a couple of days later issue a decision.

If the complainant is found guilty they have 72 hours to file an appeal.

If the sanctions involve a re-distribution of purse money the paymaster will be notified on the day the ruling is published.

Any funds that were accrued from the race are expected to be returned quickly including fees paid to jockeys and their agents.


That all sounds "0fficial" and above board for everyone involved except for the bettor. The people that support the game, bet on the game, pretty much are the life's blood of this game because its a wagering game. They are not in one step of this procedure, never a thought, never a mention, never a way for some sort of justice. Then the industry wonders why people think horse racing is fixed or full of cheats. The bettors in these circumstances pretty much bend over, "take it you know where" and are expected to bet their money with confidence up until the next "incident" gets noticed. These same people probably get away with it at times too or they would not be doing it. People bitch because these people give the money back, get a fine and the same clowns are back at it in 30-60 days. There is absolutely nobody really representing the bettor at these hearings. They make it sound like someone is (like the Stewards) but has anyone (a Bettor) ever gotten a dime back from cheating or the Stewards' taking the wrong horse down? Running a horse with the wrong number tattoo? If people saw lifetime bans and 10 years, this could be nipped with way less incidence but it seems like the people betting their money always come last and its not like they don't realize this.

I believe the only people that ever got their money were the Pick Six people that rightfully won with 5 right at the Breeders Cup......and the "cheaters" were 3 guys selling wagers not horse people, they have a way of protecting "their own". And that stinks to high heaven.

[green80]

I am curious about how the system works:

Am I correctly guessing that drug testing results come out before prizes clear? If so, what happens to that part of the purse, when a horse tests hot? Does it go to the next finisher? Does it go the track?

It depends on what state you are in. Most places do not give you access to your purse money until the test clears. The money will be placed in your horsemans account but on hold until the test clears. In a few places you are paid up front when you win a share of the purse but if you get a bad test you owe the track the money back. Most of the time this just applies to winners but occasionally they will test the second, third or on back. Any horse in the race is subject to a random test. This also depends on what chemical was found in the horse's test. I have seen cases where lighter infractions such as an overage of bute was subject to a $1000 fine but the owner was allowed to keep the purse. The number of bad test a trainer has also will come into play on these infractions.
IN any bad test that results in a disqualification the following horses are all awarded the next place higher up.

PS. Different states have different medication rules, so what is legal to run on in one state may not be in another.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Purse money is distributed before any findings on a test.

If the horse comes back for any positive the investigators will initiate a complaint packet and investigate the possible infraction.

The complaint will be mailed to the address of the defendant as well as a person to person serving at the barn of the suspected violator.

An extensive barn search will then take place with the accused there to facilitate and answer questions.

The accused will be asked if they wish to exercise their right to a split sample.

Following will include many interviews with anybody that might have knowledge of the case.

A hearing date will be set.

The case by the board will be presented by the investigators to the stewards.

They will hear the case and usually a couple of days later issue a decision.

If the complainant is found guilty they have 72 hours to file an appeal.

If the sanctions involve a re-distribution of purse money the paymaster will be notified on the day the ruling is published.

Any funds that were accrued from the race are expected to be returned quickly including fees paid to jockeys and their agents.

Wow, Cali has well defined procedures. How long does it take for a test to come back in Cali? In the midatlantic, it's about 5 to 7 days, at which point the winner's purse monies are released (not before that). It sounds like the winner's purses monies are made available in Cali right away?

[v j stauffer]

All states and tracks probably have different rules but generally if your horse goes to the test barn you dont get any purse revenue till your test comes back clean.

I would expect for overnight races very few if any do it this way. Some states, Arkansas is one, have what they call super testing for Graded Races. In those cases the purse money was held up until and clean test came back.

Happened when I had Garcia. We won a stakes there on a horse named Conveyance. Took forever to get paid.

[whodoyoulike]

That all sounds "0fficial" and above board for everyone involved except for the bettor. The people that support the game, bet on the game, pretty much are the life's blood of this game because its a wagering game. They are not in one step of this procedure, never a thought, never a mention, never a way for some sort of justice. Then the industry wonders why people think horse racing is fixed or full of cheats. The bettors in these circumstances pretty much bend over, "take it you know where" and are expected to bet their money with confidence up until the next "incident" gets noticed. These same people probably get away with it at times too or they would not be doing it. ...

I don't know what the solution should be other than include a hefty fine related to the amount bet on the guilty horse and connections (on the owner, vet, trainer and maybe include the jockey if they're involved). The fine can be applied to a fund to reduce take out at that track. An example of the extent of the fine would be something like .... if $150k was bet to win and the horse won then that would be the fine or some significant % which the connections would be liable and owe. They can sue each other and each can attempt to recover anything if they weren't part of it.

[green80]

That would never stand. Why should the jockey or the owner be fined if the trainer decides to give some illegal med? They most likely would never know about it. I would agree that the betting public is getting a bad deal when a horse runs with illegal substances in his bloodstream but no one has come up with a viable solution.

[Stillriledup]

That would never stand. Why should the jockey or the owner be fined if the trainer decides to give some illegal med? They most likely would never know about it. I would agree that the betting public is getting a bad deal when a horse runs with illegal substances in his bloodstream but no one has come up with a viable solution.

Demerits.

[whodoyoulike]

That would never stand. Why should the jockey or the owner be fined if the trainer decides to give some illegal med? They most likely would never know about it. I would agree that the betting public is getting a bad deal when a horse runs with illegal substances in his bloodstream but no one has come up with a viable solution.

Which is the reason I stated, they can sue each other and leave the bettor out of it which is our current status. If the owner had no part of the decision then he wouldn't utilize the trainer or vets services in the future and collect damages from the guilty party(ies). Once it becomes known, I doubt very many owners would pay those trainers or vets for their future services (ever!!). I can see requiring some type of bonding insurance (which is used in the independent contracting field) against liability and if they can't purchase the bond they can't set foot on the given track grounds.

The jockey would be included if there were questions about a buzzer being found or something similar.

[chadk66]

Thanks for the quick reply.

You stated, "At least anywhere that I've raced."

Are you an owner, or a trainer, or a jockey?Trainer. But haven't done that since 1991 so things could have changed.

[green80]

Which is the reason I stated, they can sue each other and leave the bettor out of it which is our current status. If the owner had no part of the decision then he wouldn't utilize the trainer or vets services in the future and collect damages from the guilty party(ies). Once it becomes known, I doubt very many owners would pay those trainers or vets for their future services (ever!!). I can see requiring some type of bonding insurance (which is used in the independent contracting field) against liability and if they can't purchase the bond they can't set foot on the given track grounds.

The jockey would be included if there were questions about a buzzer being found or something similar.

There is so much wrong with that plan I don't know where to start.

[whodoyoulike]

There is so much wrong with that plan I don't know where to start.

Then it's a good thing I haven't been appointed Czar of US racing not that I would accept the position.

Btw, just in case you didn't notice....

I don't know what the solution should be ...

[onefast99]

It depends on what state you are in. Most places do not give you access to your purse money until the test clears. The money will be placed in your horsemans account but on hold until the test clears. In a few places you are paid up front when you win a share of the purse but if you get a bad test you owe the track the money back. Most of the time this just applies to winners but occasionally they will test the second, third or on back. Any horse in the race is subject to a random test. This also depends on what chemical was found in the horse's test. I have seen cases where lighter infractions such as an overage of bute was subject to a $1000 fine but the owner was allowed to keep the purse. The number of bad test a trainer has also will come into play on these infractions.
IN any bad test that results in a disqualification the following horses are all awarded the next place higher up.

PS. Different states have different medication rules, so what is legal to run on in one state may not be in another.Penn National will give you the purse monies prior to the tests coming back with a full disclosure that in the event the horse tests positive the monies will need to be given back to the horsemans book within 30 days of receipt..

[onefast99]

That all sounds "0fficial" and above board for everyone involved except for the bettor. The people that support the game, bet on the game, pretty much are the life's blood of this game because its a wagering game. They are not in one step of this procedure, never a thought, never a mention, never a way for some sort of justice. Then the industry wonders why people think horse racing is fixed or full of cheats. The bettors in these circumstances pretty much bend over, "take it you know where" and are expected to bet their money with confidence up until the next "incident" gets noticed. These same people probably get away with it at times too or they would not be doing it. People bitch because these people give the money back, get a fine and the same clowns are back at it in 30-60 days. There is absolutely nobody really representing the bettor at these hearings. They make it sound like someone is (like the Stewards) but has anyone (a Bettor) ever gotten a dime back from cheating or the Stewards' taking the wrong horse down? Running a horse with the wrong number tattoo? If people saw lifetime bans and 10 years, this could be nipped with way less incidence but it seems like the people betting their money always come last and its not like they don't realize this.

I believe the only people that ever got their money were the Pick Six people that rightfully won with 5 right at the Breeders Cup......and the "cheaters" were 3 guys selling wagers not horse people, they have a way of protecting "their own". And that stinks to high heaven.So the bettors who won money on the horse that tested positive should give their monies back also? There is no solution to this problem for those who manipulate the system on a daily basis.

[green80]

Penn National will give you the purse monies prior to the tests coming back with a full disclosure that in the event the horse tests positive the monies will need to be given back to the horsemans book within 30 days of receipt..

I wouldn't want the job to try to collect. With half those guys the money is gone within 24 hours.

[onefast99]

I wouldn't want the job to try to collect. With half those guys the money is gone within 24 hours.agree.

[EMD4ME]

So the bettors who won money on the horse that tested positive should give their monies back also? There is no solution to this problem for those who manipulate the system on a daily basis.


Here's my idea.........

If a horse tests positive, the trainer and owner are subject to a fine EQUAL to that of the handle on the race.

They should pay for the monies that other people lost on a rigged race.

That would hinder the juicing that goes on.

To the bettors who cashed erroneously on a drugged horse: Let them keep the money they made. Why? Because I am sure they have lost money on a race where a doped up horse beat them in their lifetime.

After all, they all even out ;) don't they? Time to even it out.

[green80]

Here's my idea.........

If a horse tests positive, the trainer and owner are subject to a fine EQUAL to that of the handle on the race.

They should pay for the monies that other people lost on a rigged race.

That would hinder the juicing that goes on.

To the bettors who cashed erroneously on a drugged horse: Let them keep the money they made. Why? Because I am sure they have lost money on a race where a doped up horse beat them in their lifetime.

After all, they all even out ;) don't they? Time to even it out.

I wouldn't run anything, couldn't afford to chance it.
Give your bute a little too late and it could result in a bad test.

[EMD4ME]

I wouldn't run anything, couldn't afford to chance it.
Give your bute a little too late and it could result in a bad test.

I know I sound crazy green80 and I like you. Didn't mean it against the good guys. However, it seems that the "bad" people have destroyed the game so why not turn the globe around?

Get them out, clean the game up and everyone will absolutely learn to make sure they run a clean shop. A totally clean shop.

For the instances where a non performance enhancing drug was present in somewhat understandable levels (with a solid excuse) an exception can be made.