Is Tom Brady overrated?

[Stillriledup]

Forgetting all the cheating allegations against him and his team, would he still be viewed in the same light if he didnt play for the games greatest coach and owner combo, play in a soft division for a decade? He didn't have to play the Steelers twice per year, didnt have to play Ray Lewis and his boys twice a year, ended up playing weak sisters of the poor twice a year which let them get championship games at home.

Manning gets put behind Brady because of rings and payoff wins, but if Manning was the qb in New England for the last ten years, he would have done just as well as Brady if not better. Manning played under morons Dungy and Caldwell, why isn't any of this a factor when talking about legacy?

[thaskalos]

If Brady is overrated...then EVERYBODY is overrated.

[Stillriledup]

If Brady is overrated...then EVERYBODY is overrated.

My point is that when discussing Brady, nobody brings up his cupcake schedule and playing for a coach who's 10x better than everyone else.

[newtothegame]

Still,
I don't think we can control the circumstances on which we play. You mention a cupcake schedule for Brady.....
The AFC SOUTH isn't a barn full of contenders (I mean Houston, Jacksonville, tennesse etc etc ) aren't exactly the elite of the NFL.
I would suggest that Brady has done more with less (especially considering draft position).
Manning was supposed to be this good and ranked highly. Brady was a nobody essentially.
Right now, Brandon Lafell might be the best receiver the Pats have and still only TWO losses???? Come on, Brady deserves all of the accolades and then some (even though Rodgers is better) lmao

[thaskalos]

My point is that when discussing Brady, nobody brings up his cupcake schedule and playing for a coach who's 10x better than everyone else.
Is Belichick REALLY that much better as a coach than everybody else?

What was his record when he coached the Cleveland Browns for 5 years?

[Rookies]

SRU:

Crack is a terrible choice before you post here!

Honest to God, as a Bills fan, THAT is the most ridiculous comment I've seen here, on the Sports Topic- ever!

Let me get away from all his known great plays, Playoff records, 4th Quarter comebacks, Super Bowl appearances and value, etc.

Do you know what Brady's value is on 3rd/4th & 1? He gets the Cheatriots a first down NINETY-SIX % of the time!

96 on over 100 attempts. The NFL average is at least 15-20% off that.

That guy does virtually everything better than anyone else.

[Stillriledup]

Is Belichick REALLY that much better as a coach than everybody else?

What was his record when he coached the Cleveland Browns for 5 years?

He got better as he got older?

[thaskalos]

He got better as he got older?
Then...how come I get WORSE as I get older?

[Stillriledup]

Then...how come I get WORSE as I get older?

You're an outlier?

[Stillriledup]

SRU:

Crack is a terrible choice before you post here!

Honest to God, as a Bills fan, THAT is the most ridiculous comment I've seen here, on the Sports Topic- ever!

Let me get away from all his known great plays, Playoff records, 4th Quarter comebacks, Super Bowl appearances and value, etc.

Do you know what Brady's value is on 3rd/4th & 1? He gets the Cheatriots a first down NINETY-SIX % of the time!

96 on over 100 attempts. The NFL average is at least 15-20% off that.

That guy does virtually everything better than anyone else.

Say no to crack :lol: love it!!

I'm not saying Brady isn't exceptionally good, I'm just saying that nobody seems to mention cupcake schedules that permitted him to get bye weeks and home playoff games as well as the genius as his coach.

[thaskalos]

You're an outlier?
Yeah...lucky me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Say no to crack :lol: love it!!

I'm not saying Brady isn't exceptionally good, I'm just saying that nobody seems to mention cupcake schedules that permitted him to get bye weeks and home playoff games as well as the genius as his coach.

You can't be serious on this one. Nice try.

[Stillriledup]

You can't be serious on this one. Nice try.

A player is either underrated, overrated or properly rated. The guy has been put in the best possible situation to win, he's never had a clown for a coach and he's rarely had to win 2 or 3 road games to GET to the Super Bowl. Great player, but I'm thinking a bit overrated. Sorry Mike.

[proximity]

Forgetting all the cheating allegations against him and his team, would he still be viewed in the same light if he didnt play for the games greatest coach and owner combo, play in a soft division for a decade? He didn't have to play the Steelers twice per year, didnt have to play Ray Lewis and his boys twice a year, ended up playing weak sisters of the poor twice a year which let them get championship games at home.

Manning gets put behind Brady because of rings and payoff wins, but if Manning was the qb in New England for the last ten years, he would have done just as well as Brady if not better. Manning played under morons Dungy and Caldwell, why isn't any of this a factor when talking about legacy?

(1) tom brady IS a great player. but....

(2) manning gets put behind brady? uhhhh???? would brady have led the colts and broncos to as many wins? probably NOT.

(3) tony dungy is FAR from a moron. possibly the dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

(4) caldwell may not be a good head coach but he isn't a moron either.

[Rookies]

Say no to crack :lol: love it!!

I'm not saying Brady isn't exceptionally good, I'm just saying that nobody seems to mention cupcake schedules that permitted him to get bye weeks and home playoff games as well as the genius as his coach.

Here's the way the kooky NFL system works. If you pile up the Ws, from Labour Day- New Year's, you get to sit on your arse at Home awaiting the worst survivor. They have this whacky system in place every year and I guess, it's by mere chance that Brady, with his constantly changing Offensive parts, has been home waaaaay more often than not! The system is designed, that in addition to the AFC-E, when New England finishes first, they must play the #1 teams of all the remaining Division opponents. No, they don't play the best teams in the entire NFL, but my guess is that nobody EVER does!

In ANY honest survey of the greatest QBs in NFL history, the vast majority rate Brady in the top two- neck and neck with Joe.

I wish he wasn't that good, but FFS- he is.

[Stillriledup]

(1) tom brady IS a great player. but....

(2) manning gets put behind brady? uhhhh???? would brady have led the colts and broncos to as many wins? probably NOT.

(3) tony dungy is FAR from a moron. possibly the dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

(4) caldwell may not be a good head coach but he isn't a moron either.

I think Dungy is a moron as a coach, good guy, very likeable, not a good coach. Caldwell is worse.

[proximity]

I think Dungy is a moron as a coach, good guy, very likeable, not a good coach. Caldwell is worse.

get a clue.

[barahona44]

Is Belichick REALLY that much better as a coach than everybody else?

What was his record when he coached the Cleveland Browns for 5 years?
Bellichick became a .500 career head coach towards the end of his NINTH season as a head coach.5 of his first 6 seasons were losing ones and he made the playoffs once.Brady becomes the Qb and it's Super Bowl time.In addition his willingness to get way below market value saves the Patriots 8-10 million per year (I believe Brady is somewhere in the 13-14th position in QB salary).
Bellichick is good with personnel but until he proves he can win without Brady, I can't call him the greatest coach ever

[ReplayRandall]

Bellichick is good with personnel but until he proves he can win without Brady, I can't call him the greatest coach ever

Of course he's not the greatest coach ever, #1- Vince Lombardi....

2. Bill Walsh
3. Don Shula
4. Bill Belichick
5. Chuck Noll
6. Tom Landry
7. Joe Gibbs
8. John Madden
9. George Halas
10 Bill Parcells

[cj]

(1) tom brady IS a great player. but....

(2) manning gets put behind brady? uhhhh???? would brady have led the colts and broncos to as many wins? probably NOT.


Pure homerism. Brady is the greatest QB ever. Look at the "weapons" this guy has had to work with throughout his career. He makes players look good, not the other way around. Think about the players he was handing the ball to and throwing to throughout his career. Then think about what those players did before and after New England.

[proximity]

Pure homerism. Brady is the greatest QB ever. Look at the "weapons" this guy has had to work with throughout his career. He makes players look good, not the other way around. Think about the players he was handing the ball to and throwing to throughout his career. Then think about what those players did before and after New England.

don't really care about individual players but manning pretty much carried the team. that is a fact. (i wish it wasn't) over the span of his career he did have better receivers overall with marvin and reggie although brady had some time with moss and plenty of time with gronk. 2-14 after he left compared to 10-6, 11-5 or whatever new england was sans brady.

also for the bulk of his career brady had a better line and certainly a better defense, so all the pressure wasn't placed directly on his shoulders. it's also true that he did have better coaching although to say that tony dungy is a moron is completely ridiculous (and should be deleted from this website) as he twice entered losing cultures and transformed them into winners.

[cj]

I think Dungy is a moron as a coach, good guy, very likeable, not a good coach. Caldwell is worse.

This is ridiculous. Posting just to post again I think.

[ultracapper]

What was Cassell's record when Brady went down for that full season? 11-5? What's cassell done since? Good football team. Good coach.

[Stillriledup]

Of course he's not the greatest coach ever, #1- Vince Lombardi....

2. Bill Walsh
3. Don Shula
4. Bill Belichick
5. Chuck Noll
6. Tom Landry
7. Joe Gibbs
8. John Madden
9. George Halas
10 Bill Parcells


Lol parcels? Belichick was CARRIED OFF THE FIELD ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS as D coordinator , don't forget that.

[Stillriledup]

Pure homerism. Brady is the greatest QB ever. Look at the "weapons" this guy has had to work with throughout his career. He makes players look good, not the other way around. Think about the players he was handing the ball to and throwing to throughout his career. Then think about what those players did before and after New England.

The players don't do as good because the coaching doesn't put them in the positions that Belichick puts them in.

[rastajenk]

...2-14 after he (Manning) left ...That was intentional to get the first pick. No doubt about that. No way Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter were the best qb's they could get at that time.

[ManU918]

don't really care about individual players but manning pretty much carried the team. that is a fact. (i wish it wasn't) over the span of his career he did have better receivers overall with marvin and reggie although brady had some time with moss and plenty of time with gronk. 2-14 after he left compared to 10-6, 11-5 or whatever new england was sans brady.

also for the bulk of his career brady had a better line and certainly a better defense, so all the pressure wasn't placed directly on his shoulders. it's also true that he did have better coaching although to say that tony dungy is a moron is completely ridiculous (and should be deleted from this website) as he twice entered losing cultures and transformed them into winners.

+1. Dungy coached 13 years in the NFL and had one losing season.

[Kash$]

Pure homerism. Brady is the greatest QB ever. Look at the "weapons" this guy has had to work with throughout his career. He makes players look good, not the other way around. Think about the players he was handing the ball to and throwing to throughout his career. Then think about what those players did before and after New England.

Brady all time great QB...but Montana was up against some of the all time great defenses and played in a era where no qb was completing over 60%..

I ranked Elway ahead of Brady..Elway's 80's super bowl teams were stunk..

Montana
Elway
Brady

[Kash$]

This is ridiculous. Posting just to post again I think.

Dungy is good not great..

[tucker6]

Dungy is good not great..
we have a winner :ThmbUp:

[ManU918]

Dungy is good not great..

139-69 (.668) with 10 consecutive trips to the playoffs. What about that isn't great? The guy is most likely going into the Hall next season.

[tucker6]

I consider Belicheck great because he is innovative when it comes to understanding how the rulebook can benefit his team, and because he has a zero tolerance policy when it comes to mistakes. He doesn't give second chances.

That said, he's a convicted cheater and cannot be the best ever due to that alone. I have Lombardi, Shula, Halas, and Parcells ahead of him. They were just as good and didn't have to cheat to win.

[tucker6]

139-69 (.668) with 10 consecutive trips to the playoffs. What about that isn't great? The guy is most likely going into the Hall next season.
My problem with your stat is that Dungy had horrible defenses at Indy. He relied solely on one player for that record.

Take away Brady and Manning for a second, who are arguably top five QB's of all time. Do Dungy and Belicheck have the same winning record with Tony Romo and Eli Manning respectively? They are good QB's too.

[newtothegame]

My problem with your stat is that Dungy had horrible defenses at Indy. He relied solely on one player for that record.

Take away Brady and Manning for a second, who are arguably top five QB's of all time. Do Dungy and Belicheck have the same winning record with Tony Romo and Eli Manning respectively? They are good QB's too.
Tuck, do you realize what you wrote?
Yes they are GOOD. However, they will never be mistaken for top 5 all time!

[Kash$]

139-69 (.668) with 10 consecutive trips to the playoffs. What about that isn't great? The guy is most likely going into the Hall next season.
Did you count his first round playoffs to inferior teams....

He didn't draft Lynch,Brooks or Sapp..

His loyalty got him fired..I live in Tampa and watched every game he was brutal....

Got the job with the Colts and was the assistant coach to Peyton Manning..

So he gets in the HOF and Jimmy Johnson and Tom Flores wont...:confused:

[Kash$]

My problem with your stat is that Dungy had horrible defenses at Indy. He relied solely on one player for that record.

Take away Brady and Manning for a second, who are arguably top five QB's of all time. Do Dungy and Belicheck have the same winning record with Tony Romo and Eli Manning respectively? They are good QB's too.

Dungy's defenses with the Colts weren't terrible ranked top 10

[tucker6]

Tuck, do you realize what you wrote?
Yes they are GOOD. However, they will never be mistaken for top 5 all time!
I meant what I typed, so maybe I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that Belicheck and Dungy would have faltered even with good, but not great, QB's. In this day and age, the QB makes or breaks teams and coaches. Just look at Jeff Fisher. He's still living off Steve McNair long after he's dead.

[tucker6]

Dungy's defenses with the Colts weren't terrible ranked top 10
You are more correct than I was. Four of his seven teams at Indy had top 10 defenses. The other 3 were well below average.

Still, it was offense that won many of those games. Top 3 in 5 of the 7 years.

[tucker6]

Did you count his first round playoffs to inferior teams....

He didn't draft Lynch,Brooks or Sapp..

His loyalty got him fired..I live in Tampa and watched every game he was brutal....

Got the job with the Colts and was the assistant coach to Peyton Manning..

So he gets in the HOF and Jimmy Johnson and Tom Flores wont...:confused:
Jimmy Johnson not getting in is a travesty.

[ManU918]

I meant what I typed, so maybe I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that Belicheck and Dungy would have faltered even with good, but not great, QB's. In this day and age, the QB makes or breaks teams and coaches. Just look at Jeff Fisher. He's still living off Steve McNair long after he's dead.

So Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson were great? I disagree and Dungy still made the playoffs 4 out 6 years in Tampa and was 12 games over .500

[ManU918]

Jimmy Johnson not getting in is a travesty.

If Levy gets in with no Super Bowls, a .561 winning percentage and 143 regular season wins then I suppose Andy Reid is also a future HOF'er... So yes it is a travesty.

[tucker6]

So Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson were great? I disagree and Dungy still made the playoffs 4 out 6 years in Tampa and was 12 games over .500
No, and that is why Dungy wasn't great. The QB makes the coach, not the other way around. It is obvious we disagree, so let's just leave it at that.

[tucker6]

If Levy gets in with no Super Bowls, a .561 winning percentage and 143 regular season wins then I suppose Andy Reid is also a future HOF'er... So yes it is a travesty.
name a HOF coach in the last 40 years who didn't have a HOF qb other than Madden and Parcells? They are the only ones I can come up with, and even they had near HOF qb's in the Snake and Simms.

Edit to add that I consider Ditka to have gotten in as a player and not a coach.

[Kash$]

So Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson were great? I disagree and Dungy still made the playoffs 4 out 6 years in Tampa and was 12 games over .500

Not sure Dungy had Brad Johnson but the BUC defense were all time great d.

Gruden won Super Bowl with Johnson different era you can play with average qbs and still win..Todays nfl you cant win SB with average qb unless you have a great defense like Seattle had

[Kash$]

If Levy gets in with no Super Bowls, a .561 winning percentage and 143 regular season wins then I suppose Andy Reid is also a future HOF'er... So yes it is a travesty.

I agree Reid should be first ballot

[delayjf]

Gruden won Super Bowl with Johnson different era you can play with average qbs and still win..Todays nfl you cant win SB with average qb unless you have a great defense like Seattle had

Tampa's defense was every bit as dominate as Seattle's defense.

[Kash$]

Tampa's defense was every bit as dominate as Seattle's defense.

Tampa's defense all time great defense...

Seattle was good 3 years

[ronsmac]

Tampa's defense was every bit as dominate as Seattle's defense.Two great defenses, but has there ever been a better defense than the 76 steelers. Coming off of 2 superbowl wins they had superbowl hangover the first 4 or 5 games starting 1-4. Then preceeded to win 9 straight and gave up only 2 maybe 3 tds total in those 9 games. And no, Tom Brady is not underrated.

[Stillriledup]

139-69 (.668) with 10 consecutive trips to the playoffs. What about that isn't great? The guy is most likely going into the Hall next season.

That's Mannings record, Dungy was just along for the ride. I watched plenty of Dungy coached games and never thought 'wow, this guy is sharp'

[thaskalos]

That's Mannings record, Dungy was just along for the ride. I watched plenty of Dungy coached games and never thought 'wow, this guy is sharp'
They said the same thing about Michael and Phil Jackson. And then Jackson went to LA...and reorganized the dysfunctional family there...and did it AGAIN.

[tucker6]

They said the same thing about Michael and Phil Jackson. And then Jackson went to LA...and reorganized the dysfunctional family there...and did it AGAIN.
How is that in disagreement with SRU? Fact is that Bill flunked in Cleveland and shined in NE. Jury is out on whether that was caused by QB play. Your example is apples to oranges. When Bill succeeds long term with another QB, get back to me.

[thaskalos]

How is that in disagreement with SRU? Fact is that Bill flunked in Cleveland and shined in NE. Jury is out on whether that was caused by QB play. Your example is apples to oranges. When Bill succeeds long term with another QB, get back to me.

Why would I get back to YOU? I wasn't referring to you here in the first place.

[Stillriledup]

They said the same thing about Michael and Phil Jackson. And then Jackson went to LA...and reorganized the dysfunctional family there...and did it AGAIN.

My critique of Dungy has to do with my eyeballing many games he coached, I never thought they could have done without him, Mike Tomlin is another coach with a winning record and Super Bowls, but I don't think he's a particularly good coach either, I don't look at records, I watch guys coach, I 'follow along' with specific game mgmt decisions and make my call on what I think of a coach.

Belichick is obviously a great coach, so his Cleve record proves that even a great coach can have a losing stretch (as well as an average coach having a winning stretch)

I don't look at records, I watch guys coach and decide from the eyeball test.

[rastajenk]

Maybe Dungy's greatness is in the locker room and on the practice field Monday thru Saturday, putting his team in the right frame of mind for that week's particular opponent, or doing the X's and O's stuff with great efficiency.

Maybe.

[proximity]

* no team ever went 2-14 or tried to lose even a single game intentionally. ever.

* bill belichick is a great coach and better than tony dungy but tony dungy was better than good. he was at least in the very good range. what do former players say?

* the colts defenses were always poor throughout the manning era. and in some ways dungy's bend but don't break defenses hurt manning statistically by keeping him on the bench. bob sanders was great..... when he was on the field and not hurt. freeney and mathis were great pass rushers. team had atrocious run defense. 375 yards vs jacksonville?

* colts players who were better than their corresponding new england player during the manning era? harrison, wayne, saturday, sanders, mathis and freeney as situational pass rushers, vinny, our punters? diem?? glenn???

and outside of marvin and reggie how much better were these superior colts players to their new england counterparts? not much. their worst linebacker was better than our best. clearly. hell their entire roster was practically equal or superior.

[tucker6]

Why would I get back to YOU? I wasn't referring to you here in the first place.
If you don't want people to respond to your written word, maybe PM is best for you. :)

[Stillriledup]

Maybe Dungy's greatness is in the locker room and on the practice field Monday thru Saturday, putting his team in the right frame of mind for that week's particular opponent, or doing the X's and O's stuff with great efficiency.

Maybe.

This is a fair point.

[Valuist]

Two great defenses, but has there ever been a better defense than the 76 steelers. Coming off of 2 superbowl wins they had superbowl hangover the first 4 or 5 games starting 1-4. Then preceeded to win 9 straight and gave up only 2 maybe 3 tds total in those 9 games. And no, Tom Brady is not underrated.

Yes, there has. The 1985-1986 Bears.

I also agree Brady is not overrated. Didn't deserve that first Super Bowl MVP, but the media are idiots and automatically give it to the winning QB.

[MutuelClerk]

I think the reason Belichick is so good is the other coaches are just so freaking bad.

[Maximillion]

I know throughout the years Belichick has been a douchebag to the media....but he kind of leaves me with the impression that unlike a lot of the other"legendary" coaches, he may actually be a nice guy in real life.
Of course I could be wrong...

[Stillriledup]

I think the reason Belichick is so good is the other coaches are just so freaking bad.

This is one of my pet theories, that Belichick is really a 7 as a coach and he's beating 1's, 2's and so on, it's not like he's a 10 beating 8s

He's not Bo Derek.

[tucker6]

I know throughout the years Belichick has been a douchebag to the media....but he kind of leaves me with the impression that unlike a lot of the other"legendary" coaches, he may actually be a nice guy in real life.
Of course I could be wrong...
I have read that to his friends, he is a different person. Very likable. I think it was Jimmy Johnson that described him on a fishing trip. Nobody could believe Bill was so much fun. :D

[ronsmac]

Yes, there has. The 1985-1986 Bears.

I also agree Brady is not overrated. Didn't deserve that first Super Bowl MVP, but the media are idiots and automatically give it to the winning QB.The Bears defense was great but 28 pts in their final 9 games was amazing. It was a forgotten team because the 74 and 75 Steelers won the Superbowl. A number of players said the 76 team was better than the super bowl teams. Injuries to Franco harris and Rocky Bleier in the route of my beloved Baltimore Colts sealed their fate the following week against the Raiders. Speaking of Brady I loved what he showed when finally given a great wr in Randy Moss. Who was supposed to be washed up at the time.

[burnsy]

He's really good.......but the position itself is way over rated. Not the best arm, but he's really accurate, he's more of a dink and dunker. Really smart, no panic, all the things that make a great QB.

The thing people never understand on TV and many people that bet. This is a team sport. If the team sucks, is wounded or limping around. You can have Tom Brady or Johnny Unitas.......the team is still going to struggle. The better team almost always trumps the best QB. Many a Super Bowl QB are guys people never gave a chance.......one of them won two Super Bowls over Brady. Two years ago people made fun of Wilson vs. Peyton Manning.............Peyton got buried and Russell Wilson made him look stupid. But Russell Wilson is surrounded by great players, many of them are on the defensive side. The QB is like President, too much credit and too much blame. If you don't have 22 solid starters to field in this league..........good luck, playoff time. A Burnsy betting tip. Don't listen to "Jaws" and these other fools that never bet....the best teams usually rise to the top with an adequate QB. Most are pretty good but "they" make it sound like only 1 or 2 can win.....its been proven over and over again to not be true. The "big name" QB in championship games and the SB game, is many times the guy running for his life. If they don't get healthy, that would be Tom Brady and we are seeing that already.

[tucker6]

He's really good.......but the position itself is way over rated.
Saying that would go too far in the other direction. You cannot get to and through the playoffs without a good/great QB simply because the QB handles the ball more than any other position on the field. Similar to a pitcher in baseball. That alone makes it THE most important position in football. Name another position on the field that impacts the final score of a game over the long haul more than QB?

You cannot bring up two or three specific one game examples to support your argument in a discussion that involves a longer view. A great defense can win you games, but if the offense can't move the ball or turns it over a lot ( a la Peyton this year), the stress on even a great defense is high, and at some point they will break. Not to mention the locker room cancer that builds when one side of the team feels the other is not holding up their side of the ledger. Again, I am talking over the course of a season and not just one game. The playoffs usually involve good to great defenses, and so we end up discussing QB's who can defeat them.

[pandy]

I've always thought Brady is overrated, although he is a great player. But there are millions of people who think that the Patriots win because of Brady, but during the Belichick era, almost any top NFL QB would have been hugely successful. When Matt Cassell was the QB for 12 games they went 9-3, and Cassell is a second string QB.

Bottom line is, it's Belichick and the organization itself that has created this incredible success story. They take players that other teams cut and make them into quality players. Belichick is a genius. I wonder how good Brady would have been on another team, I bet not nearly as good.

[ReplayRandall]

I've always thought Brady is overrated, although he is a great player. But there are millions of people who think that the Patriots win because of Brady, but during the Belichick era, almost any top NFL QB would have been hugely successful. When Matt Cassell was the QB for 12 games they went 9-3, and Cassell is a second string QB.

Bottom line is, it's Belichick and the organization itself that has created this incredible success story. They take players that other teams cut and make them into quality players. Belichick is a genius. I wonder how good Brady would have been on another team, I bet not nearly as good.

Tom Brady will go down as the Greatest QB to ever play, here's why:

Super Bowl stats-
•Most career Super Bowls played and started (six)
•Most career Super Bowl wins as a QB (tied with Bradshaw/Montana)
•Most career Super Bowl attempts and completions
•Most career consecutive completions in a Super Bowl
•Most career Super Bowl passing yards

Playoff stats-
•Most career playoff passing TDs
•Most career playoff passing yards
•Most career postseason wins
•Most career starts in a conference championship game

Career stats-
•Career passing yards (5th, will likely retire 3rd or 4th)
•Career passing TDs (5th, will likely retire 3rd or 4th)
•Career QB Rating (5th)
•Career pass interception percentage (2nd, will retire 1st or 2nd)
•Game-Winning Drives (4th, could retire as high as 1st)
•Comebacks (4th, could retire 1st or 2nd)
•TD/INT Ratio (2nd, will retire 1st or 2nd)

I rest my case, the stats don't lie.

If Bill Belichick is the reason why Brady has been so successful, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that Tom Brady is the Greatest NFL QB of all-time.

[ebcorde]

However Belicheck is the best and smartest coach in Football, typical Preppie kid. I'd like to know why his team make so few mistakes.

Brady, I can't stand him as a QB, but he has perfected his game. I have to give him credit. He's making QB look easy from years of hard work.


I will say took me awhile to figure out why the Giants and Ravens give Brady the most problems. They don't let him step up in the pocket, he has long legs and likes to step forward to get power behind the ball. If the DE's take an inside route and push the OL back watch. when the DE's come from the outside , he kills you

[thaskalos]

I've always thought Brady is overrated, although he is a great player. But there are millions of people who think that the Patriots win because of Brady, but during the Belichick era, almost any top NFL QB would have been hugely successful. When Matt Cassell was the QB for 12 games they went 9-3, and Cassell is a second string QB.

Bottom line is, it's Belichick and the organization itself that has created this incredible success story. They take players that other teams cut and make them into quality players. Belichick is a genius. I wonder how good Brady would have been on another team, I bet not nearly as good.

He may be a "genius"...but his "genius" didn't surface until Brady took over as quarterback. If Drew Bledsoe didn't get hurt in the second game of the 2001 season...GOD knows when Brady would have ever gotten a chance to play. Bledsoe had signed a then-record 10-year, $103 million contract in March of that year...even after NE went 5-11 the prior year.

So...Belichick couldn't win in Cleveland...and he had a spotty record in NE with Bledsoe. And he is a "genius"...while Brady is "overrated"? Sorry...I don't buy it.

[Stillriledup]

He may be a "genius"...but his "genius" didn't surface until Brady took over as quarterback. If Drew Bledsoe didn't get hurt in the second game of the 2001 season...GOD knows when Brady would have ever gotten a chance to play. Bledsoe had signed a then-record 10-year, $103 million contract in March of that year...even after NE went 5-11 the prior year.

So...Belichick couldn't win in Cleveland...and he had a spotty record in NE with Bledsoe. And he is a "genius"...while Brady is "overrated"? Sorry...I don't buy it.

BB was a genius as D coordinator of the Giants way back in the day, the guy got carried off the field, he was a great football mind way before the Cleveland days.

[thaskalos]

BB was a genius as D coordinator of the Giants way back in the day, the guy got carried off the field, he was a great football mind way before the Cleveland days.

Buddy Ryan was carried off the field by the Super Bowl-winning Chicago Bears...SO WHAT? What does Brady have to do in order to impress you, SRU? If Belichick is such a 'genius"...why couldn't he win with Bledsoe? Wasn't Bledsoe a better quarterback than Matt Cassel?

[pandy]

Bledsoe filled in for Brady in the playoffs in Brady's rookie season and played an excellent game for the win. Matt Cassel won 8 games as the QB for New England in the 2008 season, and it was the first time he played NFL football. When Cassel started for the Patriots, it was his first start as a QB since he was in high school.

[Stillriledup]

Buddy Ryan was carried off the field by the Super Bowl-winning Chicago Bears...SO WHAT? What does Brady have to do in order to impress you, SRU? If Belichick is such a 'genius"...why couldn't he win with Bledsoe? Wasn't Bledsoe a better quarterback than Matt Cassel?

Brady is great, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that his greatness is in part due to right place, right team, right owner, right system, right coach, right division etc perfect storm.

[thaskalos]

Bledsoe filled in for Brady in the playoffs in Brady's rookie season and played an excellent game for the win. Matt Cassel won 8 games as the QB for New England in the 2008 season, and it was the first time he played NFL football. When Cassel started for the Patriots, it was his first start as a QB since he was in high school.
Pandy...if Brady is "overrated" and Belichick is a "genius", as you say...then, why wasn't Belichick able to win with Bledsoe at the quarterback position?

In the year 2000...the Patriots finished 5-11...even with the "genius" coach.

[cj]

Brady is great, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that his greatness is in part due to right place, right team, right owner, right system, right coach, right division etc perfect storm.

You could probably say the same thing about every great QB.

[cj]

Tom Brady will go down as the Greatest QB to ever play, here's why:

Super Bowl stats-
•Most career Super Bowls played and started (six)
•Most career Super Bowl wins as a QB (tied with Bradshaw/Montana)
•Most career Super Bowl attempts and completions
•Most career consecutive completions in a Super Bowl
•Most career Super Bowl passing yards

Playoff stats-
•Most career playoff passing TDs
•Most career playoff passing yards
•Most career postseason wins
•Most career starts in a conference championship game

Career stats-
•Career passing yards (5th, will likely retire 3rd or 4th)
•Career passing TDs (5th, will likely retire 3rd or 4th)
•Career QB Rating (5th)
•Career pass interception percentage (2nd, will retire 1st or 2nd)
•Game-Winning Drives (4th, could retire as high as 1st)
•Comebacks (4th, could retire 1st or 2nd)
•TD/INT Ratio (2nd, will retire 1st or 2nd)

I rest my case, the stats don't lie.

If Bill Belichick is the reason why Brady has been so successful, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that Tom Brady is the Greatest NFL QB of all-time.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

I'm FAR from a Patriots fan, but Brady is the greatest. I don't even think a reasonable debate can be made any longer.

[thaskalos]

Even now, in the twilight of Brady's career...whom else would you rather have at the helm as you are making one last drive...with 1:30 left in the game, and your team down by 2?

I am a Patriot HATER...but I take my hat off to him. Tom "Terrific" fits him to a T.

The best ever. :ThmbUp:

[pandy]

Brady is great, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that his greatness is in part due to right place, right team, right owner, right system, right coach, right division etc perfect storm.

Some people say, well since Brady wins super bowls he's the best, but that would mean that Terry Bradshaw is also the best, or second best, QB of all time. I love Bradshaw, and he certainly was a fine QB and deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, but there were a lot of quarterbacks that would have won with that incredible STeelers team.

[Dan Montilion]

Who gives a TUCK?

[Robert Fischer]

You have to acknowledge the opportunity and path he was given, but you also have to credit him for doing his job.

[Stillriledup]

Some people say, well since Brady wins super bowls he's the best, but that would mean that Terry Bradshaw is also the best, or second best, QB of all time. I love Bradshaw, and he certainly was a fine QB and deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, but there were a lot of quarterbacks that would have won with that incredible STeelers team.

Brady's defining moment was losing a SB to Eli Manning when Eli had the inferior team and HC, couldn't close out the undefeated season as what, a 12 pt fave?

He also loses last year if Pete Carroll hands the ball to beast mode and doesn't get cute.

They got a little lucky to beat Carolina and without stealing the walk thru. They lose to Stl.

Brady is very close to being 6-0 or 0-6 in SBs

Even with a perfect storm for him in his career, he's also been very lucky with injuries, he missed one season to leg injury but other than this, he's been pretty well protected.

I think some people get confused at being good and being overrated, some feel that by saying a player is overrated you're essentially saying he's not that good, but the way 'rated' works is the better a player is, the more likely he is to be overrated.

I'm pretty sure my work is done here and my point is proven, some of the smartest posters at PA Are in this thread sucking Brady's kneecaps which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

[ronsmac]

Brady's defining moment was losing a SB to Eli Manning when Eli had the inferior team and HC, couldn't close out the undefeated season as what, a 12 pt fave?

He also loses last year if Pete Carroll hands the ball to beast mode and doesn't get cute.

They got a little lucky to beat Carolina and without stealing the walk thru. They lose to Stl.

Brady is very close to being 6-0 or 0-6 in SBs

Even with a perfect storm for him in his career, he's also been very lucky with injuries, he missed one season to leg injury but other than this, he's been pretty well protected.

I think some people get confused at being good and being overrated, some feel that by saying a player is overrated you're essentially saying he's not that good, but the way 'rated' works is the better a player is, the more likely he is to be overrated.

I'm pretty sure my work is done here and my point is proven, some of the smartest posters at PA Are in this thread sucking Brady's kneecaps which is exactly the point I was trying to make.Was that the game Welker had the drop that would have sealed the win, or the miracle helmet catch superbowl. I can't remember which was which.

[Valuist]

Was that the game Welker had the drop that would have sealed the win, or the miracle helmet catch superbowl. I can't remember which was which.

Welker 2012 SB
Helmet Catch 2008 SB

Some pretty good catches by Manningham in the 2012 SB as well. And Beckham has bailed Eli's ass out with a few insane catches the past 2 years.

[Stillriledup]

Was that the game Welker had the drop that would have sealed the win, or the miracle helmet catch superbowl. I can't remember which was which.

It was the game where Tedi Bruschi (smiling and laughing) was hugging Jr Seau on the sidelines with under 2 mins left telling Jr (rest in peace) Seau that he finally got his ring.

It might have also Been THIS game:

5lk-wWUQKBg

[Stillriledup]

(1) tom brady IS a great player. but....

(2) manning gets put behind brady? uhhhh???? would brady have led the colts and broncos to as many wins? probably NOT.

(3) tony dungy is FAR from a moron. possibly the dumbest thing you've ever posted here.

(4) caldwell may not be a good head coach but he isn't a moron either.

We might get to find out who's better Manning or Brady in the Championship game barring any upsets.

[burnsy]

We might get to find out who's better Manning or Brady in the Championship game barring any upsets.

Maybe, but for under dogs I would look out for KC or possibly Cincy if they get their QB back. Brady is not really over rated, he's one of the best, but he can't walk on water either. That team has been limping for weeks. Too many holes unless they get healthy. They fought through a couple close games because of Brady but they are hurting now. The defense has been their standard and they got smoked for the second week in a row. They need to get healthy during the buy or its not going to be pretty. Brady may be able to force some offense but he doesn't play on the other side and they can't stop diddley right now. Plus, he's never been a home run kind of guy other than the "Moss years". That's his weakness if there is any on his part. The Philly loss was kind of a fluke of turn overs........the last two weeks, they have been exposed. Brady is Brady, they need 21 other guys or they will get ousted. They couldn't even run today and Miami is the worst at stopping it. The offensive line is "patch work", that won't hold up against some of these teams.

[proximity]

We might get to find out who's better Manning or Brady in the Championship game barring any upsets.


http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1bcf392908b64039bafd94fd8dcdb8ab/peyton-manning-both-transcendent-and-throwback

"he transformed the position." ---joe theismann

[cj]

We might get to find out who's better Manning or Brady in the Championship game barring any upsets.

We found this out long ago. Manning fans are clinging to some hope that a win when both are past their prime would somehow change history, but there is nothing Manning can due to be put on Brady's level any longer.

Results are what matters, the rest is just speculation.

[Stillriledup]

We found this out long ago. Manning fans are clinging to some hope that a win when both are past their prime would somehow change history, but there is nothing Manning can due to be put on Brady's level any longer.

Results are what matters, the rest is just speculation.

If results matter, than the result of their next matchup will tell a lot. Brady is younger and much more 'sound" so he has no excuses this time.

As far as level goes, Manning was the #1 overall pick, there's a reason Brady went 255th and didnt play until someone got hurt, Manning never had that.

Manning also didnt have the perfect storm of being in a patsy division with the games greatest coach for over a decade.

Peyton's little brother, who is not even in the same stratosphere as being as talented, owned Brady twice in the big game and in both games, Brady was heavily favored (or at least one).

If you switch situations, Manning easily accomplishes exactly what Brady accomplished, but if you put Brady in Peyton's situation, he wouldn't be in the top 20 all time.

You're right, Brady isn't on Mannings level, but not in the way you think.

[proximity]

We found this out long ago. Manning fans are clinging to some hope that a win when both are past their prime would somehow change history, but there is nothing Manning can due to be put on Brady's level any longer.

Results are what matters, the rest is just speculation.

if you are referring to the article i posted, i posit that the bird's-eye view of mr lynch's experience is more than "just speculation."

here's another recent article by charles woodson about the greatness of harrison that could help your case:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14478861/charles-woodson-recounts-best-moments-field-toughest-receiver-stop-nfl

in the end though these are still only two players in what is much more of a TEAM game than p.a. sports posters seem to think. much more.

and (yes, unfortunately because i'm a COLTS fan, not a "Manning" fan) we never had anything even APPROACHING a complete TEAM or even much depth during the manning era.

lmfao if you people think matt cassel was going to come into indianapolis and guide the colts to an 11-5 season. you're crazy.

[cj]

Brady is the greatest of all time. The rest are fighting for second. It isn't even close.

[proximity]

with #1 seed on the line your golden boy guides ne to twelve first downs and ten points today against miami??

hell the colts put up nearly double those numbers just last week in miami with a SEVERELY INJURED AND OLDER matt hasselbeck splitting time with clipboard jesus whitehurst! :faint:

[Chaka26]

Brady is the greatest of all time. The rest are fighting for second. It isn't even close.
Brady is well behind a few guys in a few statistical,categories so its not as unanimous as you think.
He has been beficiary of a short passing game that yields ton of yards after the catch which doesnt exactly reflect qb talent. Hes awesome but a case can be made for a couple guys.

[proximity]

Brady is well behind a few guys in a few statistical,categories so its not as unanimous as you think.
He has been beficiary of a short passing game that yields ton of yards after the catch which doesnt exactly reflect qb talent. Hes awesome but a case can be made for a couple guys.

he's also been a very frequent beneficiary of spotlessly clean "ten mississippi" pockets that allow him to easily complete those throws too.

[Stillriledup]

he's also been a very frequent beneficiary of spotlessly clean "ten mississippi" pockets that allow him to easily complete those throws too.

Brady has done nothing that 50 or 100 other competent QBs would have done given his exact 'perfect storm' situation. Brady gets a 10 out of 10 in being at the right time and the right place in history, if you wanted to have scripted a movie, you couldn't have scripted it any better.

[proximity]

Brady has done nothing that 50 or 100 other competent QBs would have done .....

now don't just lob 'em over the plate like this to a power hitter like cj but it is a fact that you could wear a patriots uniform to an eight race card at suffolk and probably get dirtier than brady does in an average game. :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

now don't just lob 'em over the plate like this to a power hitter like cj but it is a fact that you could wear a patriots uniform to an eight race card at suffolk and probably get dirtier than brady does in an average game. :rolleyes:

Exactly. He doesn't have a blemish on him and it's been that way for years, he's what, 37 and in his prime, that's due to the lack of hits he's absorbed.

[Rookies]

Brady has done nothing that 50 or 100 other competent QBs would have done given his exact 'perfect storm' situation. Brady gets a 10 out of 10 in being at the right time and the right place in history, if you wanted to have scripted a movie, you couldn't have scripted it any better.

:lol: :lol:

THIS is the equivalent of the barfly whinging on about the retired persons' Pension.

The answer:

"Yeah, all you have to do is show up and perform for 35 straight years and YOU'LL get one too! Try it and get back to me, when that happens."

The fact is, "50/100" don't do it! Not now...not tomorrow... not ever!

[cj]

with #1 seed on the line your golden boy guides ne to twelve first downs and ten points today against miami??

hell the colts put up nearly double those numbers just last week in miami with a SEVERELY INJURED AND OLDER matt hasselbeck splitting time with clipboard jesus whitehurst! :faint:

The Patriots are so beat up they brought back Steven Jackson from the scrap heap. This team has nobody outside of Gronk on offense. The rest are a bunch of cast offs, never weres and never will bes. Unless you want Brady to be the team doctor and trainer I'm not sure what else he can do. There defense isn't anything special either, and yet there they were with a chance to win the AFC.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Brady is the greatest of all time. The rest are fighting for second. It isn't even close.

The end.

[_______]

I didn't think there was anything that could make me root for New England but some of the more delusional anti-Brady diatribes come close.

Forget their entire careers folks. It all comes down to a single game for all the marbles if Denver plays New England.

And that actually makes sense to someone.

[Stillriledup]

The Patriots are so beat up they brought back Steven Jackson from the scrap heap. This team has nobody outside of Gronk on offense. The rest are a bunch of cast offs, never weres and never will bes. Unless you want Brady to be the team doctor and trainer I'm not sure what else he can do. There defense isn't anything special either, and yet there they were with a chance to win the AFC.

But this is an indictment of the AFC. If the Pats played Carolina, Az or Seattle tomorrow, they would get boat raced.

[Stillriledup]

I didn't think there was anything that could make me root for New England but some of the more delusional anti-Brady diatribes come close.

Forget their entire careers folks. It all comes down to a single game for all the marbles if Denver plays New England.

And that actually makes sense to someone.
It makes sense to people who watch the games and not people who make determinations on ring totals. Robert Horry is not better than Michail Jordan and Trent Dilfer is not better than Dan Marino, yet, this rings and titles argument seems to fly when you're trying to defend your POV.

That just doesn't work.

[cj]

But this is an indictment of the AFC. If the Pats played Carolina, Az or Seattle tomorrow, they would get boat raced.

Pure speculation.

[cj]

It makes sense to people who watch the games and not people who make determinations on ring totals. Robert Horry is not better than Michail Jordan and Trent Dilfer is not better than Dan Marino, yet, this rings and titles argument seems to fly when you're trying to defend your POV.

That just doesn't work.

Robert Horry was never anywhere near close to the most important player on the team. Tom Brady is 1000% the most important player on the Patriots every single year.

He could easily have six Super Bowls right now. His best weapon was hurt in one of the losses, and both losses took two miracle catches by the opposition. Of course, he could have easily lost last year.

The guy has never really had weapons. He makes so so players into them. The one time he had a star receiver the team went undefeated. Other than that, he has played with trash heap players at the skill positions.

[Stillriledup]

Robert Horry was never anywhere near close to the most important player on the team. Tom Brady is 1000% the most important player on the Patriots every single year.

He could easily have six Super Bowls right now. His best weapon was hurt in one of the losses, and both losses took two miracle catches by the opposition. Of course, he could have easily lost last year.

The guy has never really had weapons. He makes so so players into them. The one time he had a star receiver the team went undefeated. Other than that, he has played with trash heap players at the skill positions.

Except for the O line, which finds ways to give him all day to throw, not to mention the best coach.

Gronk is probably the best tight end we have ever seen.

[cj]

Except for the O line, which finds ways to give him all day to throw, not to mention the best coach.

Gronk is probably the best tight end we have ever seen.

Of course he has a good line, as does every really good QB.

As for the coach, chicken or egg type thing IMO. I don't remember Hoodie dominating in Cleveland, do you?

Gronk is really good. He is still a tight end though, not a RB or WR.

[proximity]

The Patriots are so beat up they brought back Steven Jackson from the scrap heap. This team has nobody outside of Gronk on offense. The rest are a bunch of cast offs, never weres and never will bes. Unless you want Brady to be the team doctor and trainer I'm not sure what else he can do. There defense isn't anything special either, and yet there they were with a chance to win the AFC.

they have a good defense with playmakers at every level and great coaching and they also have great interior line play overall.

[proximity]

Of course he has a good line, as does every really good QB.

As for the coach, chicken or egg type thing IMO. I don't remember Hoodie dominating in Cleveland, do you?

Gronk is really good. He is still a tight end though, not a RB or WR.

you don't consider andrew luck to be a really good qb? :confused:

and bb may or may not be a good football coach because of a w-l record in cleveland? :rolleyes:

that w-l record of bad browns players defines a guy's coaching ability?

and coaches just stay at the same level forever? they can never develop or get better?

player development, system creation, game planning, in game adjustments...... these are hallmarks of great football coaches.

[Stillriledup]

Of course he has a good line, as does every really good QB.

As for the coach, chicken or egg type thing IMO. I don't remember Hoodie dominating in Cleveland, do you?

Gronk is really good. He is still a tight end though, not a RB or WR.

Cleveland is Cleveland and I don't know much about culture there, Kraft lets Bill do whatever he wants, I don't know If he had the same reign in Cleveland. BB had been great for a long time now, maybe he learned some lessons in Cleveland, but it's not really up for debate that he's the games greatest coach and had been for a while now.

[thaskalos]

you don't consider andrew luck to be a really good qb? :confused:

and bb may or may not be a good football coach because of a w-l record in cleveland? :rolleyes:

that w-l record of bad browns players defines a guy's coaching ability?

and coaches just stay at the same level forever? they can never develop or get better?

player development, system creation, game planning, in game adjustments...... these are hallmarks of great football coaches.

How "great" was "bb" in New England...when he had Bledsoe as QB?

[thaskalos]

you don't consider andrew luck to be a really good qb? :confused:




Andrew WHO?

[Stillriledup]

How "great" was "bb" in New England...when he had Casell as QB?
Ftfy

[thaskalos]

Ftfy

SRU...we will never, ever agree on this topic. I am a confirmed NE hater...and I would like to see them lose every single game that they play. But I still agree with CJ that Brady is the best QB to ever play the game. And if I ran a football team, and my life depended on one last drive with 2 minutes left on the clock...Brady would be my QB choice, even now that he is 38 years old.

When you see "True Greatness", you take off your hat...even if you hate the player's team.

[ebcorde]

he's nothing compared to Elway, Marino, and even Peyton Manning. anyone see Peyton yesterday QB'ing , He alone fired up the running game with audible calls.

what Brady is great at is executing Belicheck's system and Brady worked hard to be what he is.

[thaskalos]

he's nothing compared to Elway, Marino, and even Peyton Manning. anyone see Peyton yesterday QB'ing , He alone fired up the running game with audible calls.

what Brady is great at is executing Belicheck's system and Brady worked hard to be what he is.

SURE! Peyton looks GREAT against porous defenses like San Diego's. But put him up against a GOOD defense...and he gets mysterious injuries...and is removed from the game.

[Chaka26]

He could easily have six Super Bowls right now. His best weapon was hurt in one of the losses, and both losses took two miracle catches by the opposition. Of course, he could have easily lost last year.

The guy has never really had weapons. He makes so so players into them. The one time he had a star receiver the team went undefeated. Other than that, he has played with trash heap players at the skill positions.

He could just as easily lost all 6 not just 1
Tuck rule biggest joke ever but saved brady or this thread never occurs
Everyone calling welker out for a drop is bs. Welker had to try to turn in the air
It wasnt a gimme it was bad pass

why isnt anyone talking about dropped int right in db gut before the catch

Brady fans forget to thank marlon mccree for not going down in san diego

Brees or roethlisberger just as good when game on line and a presurgery manning

[cj]

Ftfy


Not very, they didn't even make the playoffs.

[cj]

The funny thing is that I, like thask, don't like the Patriots at all. I'm thrilled my Giants beat them twice in the Super Bowl and ruined the perfect season.

But unlike many others here, I can see the real picture. All the all time greats had very good offensive lines. Most had really good running backs as well, something Brady has never had. And surely most had fabulous receivers much of the time, not retread never was types. Brady makes average players look good, then they go somewhere else and drop right back off the map where they were before they came to New England.

[proximity]

Andrew WHO?

if you don't know a quarterback who had 86 td passes and two 4000 yard plus seasons in his first three years then why are you posting on an nfl thread?

your golden boy brady never threw for 4,000 yards until his 6th year in the league and never threw more than 28 td passes until his 8th.

and your sru-esque opinion that bill belichick isn't a great football coach (every nfl player, coach, gm, and owner would disagree) is comic, sad, and certainly not in harmony with your posting body of work on this site.

[ebcorde]

SURE! Peyton looks GREAT against porous defenses like San Diego's. But put him up against a GOOD defense...and he gets mysterious injuries...and is removed from the game.


lol. Omaha Omaha

[proximity]

Not very, they didn't even make the playoffs.

what year during the manning era would matt cassel have went 11-5 with the colts?

maybe 7-9 with out 2005-6 teams? :confused:

[ebcorde]

SRU...we will never, ever agree on this topic. I am a confirmed NE hater...and I would like to see them lose every single game that they play. But I still agree with CJ that Brady is the best QB to ever play the game. And if I ran a football team, and my life depended on one last drive with 2 minutes left on the clock...Brady would be my QB choice, even now that he is 38 years old.

When you see "True Greatness", you take off your hat...even if you hate the player's team.


Elway lights out the best ever. Brady has Belicheat's offense, little midgets catching 2 yd passes. Elway was all Denver had until the end.

and the AFC east and AFC is the weakest brand of football I've seen in 20 years. Buffalo, NY , Miami did virtually nothing to build a team automatic 5-6 wins for NE every year for 15 years.

The AFC has been Manning, Pitt and Baltimore for 15 years, Pats get a bye and play the same 2 teams at home every year, and all the teams are scared of Belicheat.

No way they could beat the Dallas, NY, San Fran teams of the 80's,90's.

[thaskalos]

if you don't know a quarterback who had 86 td passes and two 4000 yard plus seasons in his first three years then why are you posting on an nfl thread?

your golden boy brady never threw for 4,000 yards until his 6th year in the league and never threw more than 28 td passes until his 8th.

and your sru-esque opinion that bill belichick isn't a great football coach (every nfl player, coach, gm, and owner would disagree) is comic, sad, and certainly not in harmony with your posting body of work on this site.
I'm sorry. The next time I contemplate about posting on an NFL thread...I'll make sure I ask you for your permission. :ThmbUp:

It distresses me that you don't approve of my opinion concerning BB's "genius"...but I'd like you to know that my posts here are guided only by my OWN approval. I am not worried in the LEAST about how my posts are perceived by others...nor do I particularly care about the "harmony points" that my "posting body" receives here. I post what I like, and I try to do it tastefully...and if my work is sometimes perceived as "sru-esque", "comic", or even "sad"...that's fine with me.

I'm a big boy...and I can take it. No one is perfect. :ThmbUp:

[proximity]

I'm sorry.

apology accepted.

[Stillriledup]

Elway lights out the best ever. Brady has Belicheat's offense, little midgets catching 2 yd passes. Elway was all Denver had until the end.

and the AFC east and AFC is the weakest brand of football I've seen in 20 years. Buffalo, NY , Miami did virtually nothing to build a team automatic 5-6 wins for NE every year for 15 years.

The AFC has been Manning, Pitt and Baltimore for 15 years, Pats get a bye and play the same 2 teams at home every year, and all the teams are scared of Belicheat.

No way they could beat the Dallas, NY, San Fran teams of the 80's,90's.

Yes, how many games did Brady win playing pitch and catch with a small white guy who snuck under the linebackers. That's coaching. He's winning on coaching. Historically weak division, O line not letting anyone get near him ever. Nothing he's doing isn't something that at least 50 all time top qbs woudnt be able to pull off. You don't think Aaron Rodgers or Brees (for example)could have mimic'd Brady's accomplishment on the same team, situation, coach, division, etc?

[cj]

what year during the manning era would matt cassel have went 11-5 with the colts?

maybe 7-9 with out 2005-6 teams? :confused:

If that makes you feel better about Manning only getting one ring, good for you! :)

[cj]

Elway lights out the best ever. Brady has Belicheat's offense, little midgets catching 2 yd passes. Elway was all Denver had until the end.

and the AFC east and AFC is the weakest brand of football I've seen in 20 years. Buffalo, NY , Miami did virtually nothing to build a team automatic 5-6 wins for NE every year for 15 years.

The AFC has been Manning, Pitt and Baltimore for 15 years, Pats get a bye and play the same 2 teams at home every year, and all the teams are scared of Belicheat.

No way they could beat the Dallas, NY, San Fran teams of the 80's,90's.

By the time Elway won Super Bowls, he wasn't even the best player on the Broncos.

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/6f39c0_cd31a8ddca9b4a5a8a0162c3097d2827.jpg_srb_p_ 640_480_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srb

[proximity]

If that makes you feel better about Manning only getting one ring, good for you! :)

i don't feel better about the fact that cassel would've been lucky to go 5-11 with the colts. i already said that. :confused:

would much rather have a complete roster like pittsburgh and new england usually do.

[cj]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GOCinry_LOs/hqdefault.jpg

[proximity]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GOCinry_LOs/hqdefault.jpg

don't you have variants to calculate?

maybe review the speed/pace charts for mahoning valley? :D

[cj]

don't you have variants to calculate?

maybe review the speed/pace charts for mahoning valley? :D

I'm already done, just waiting for Turf Paradise data to be complete so I can finish the day. Tom says I'm doing a good job! :ThmbUp: :lol:

[ReplayRandall]

i don't feel better about the fact that cassel would've been lucky to go 5-11 with the colts. i already said that. :confused:

would much rather have a complete roster like pittsburgh and new england usually do.

I love reading your exploits via the poker thread, please continue. As for your comments regarding Tom Brady, stick to poker......

[Stillriledup]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GOCinry_LOs/hqdefault.jpg

inQrMmh6QaE

[proximity]

I love reading your exploits via the poker thread, please continue. As for your comments regarding Tom Brady, stick to poker......

thank you for reading my poker reports and i'm glad you enjoy them. and please post there in the 2015 thread so i don't forget to let you know if i move the reports to another site.

as for my comments here, i never said that brady wasn't a hall of fame qb or one of the best ever so maybe others here with more extreme views would be better targets for "stick to poker" attacks? i don't agree with master cj's position that he's a slam dunk goat like jerry rice at wr.

if you think matt cassel would've had success with the colts then we'll just have to agree to disagree. if you think the colts consistently field top to bottom better rosters than teams like pittsburgh, new england, cincinnati, and baltimore then we'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

happy new year though!! :)

[Stillriledup]

I love reading your exploits via the poker thread, please continue. As for your comments regarding Tom Brady, stick to poker......

He's one of the few making sense. As for the "replay" in your name, you're just going on accomplishments of Brady and ignoring how he got from point A to Point B. Brady has had the most "dressed up" career and yet nobody seems to care. This proves my original post about him being overrated. Not saying he's not very good, just saying he's not as good as the dressed up career leads you to believe. Even his supporters and admirers like CJ and Gus fail to look at HOW Brady did what he did in a team game, they just are polarized and are tossing all logic out the window. with Zenyatta they'll tell you about the context of her career, but not with Brady, with him it's just about wins, losses and rings and it doesn't matter how he got them.

[thaskalos]

thank you for reading my poker reports and i'm glad you enjoy them. and please post there in the 2015 thread so i don't forget to let you know if i move the reports to another site.

as for my comments here, i never said that brady wasn't a hall of fame qb or one of the best ever so maybe others here with more extreme views would be better targets for "stick to poker" attacks? i don't agree with master cj's position that he's a slam dunk goat like jerry rice at wr.

if you think matt cassel would've had success with the colts then we'll just have to agree to disagree. if you think the colts consistently field top to bottom better rosters than teams like pittsburgh, new england, cincinnati, and baltimore then we'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

happy new year though!! :)

I never said that Belichick wasn't a great coach, either. My only "criticism" of him here was when I replied to SRU's post, that Belichick is "10X better than anybody else" in coaching. But you said that my opinion was "comical and sad...and out of harmony with the rest of my posting body here".

My Belichick opinion is comical and sad...but your Brady opinion isn't?

[ReplayRandall]

He's one of the few making sense. As for the "replay" in your name, you're just going on accomplishments of Brady and ignoring how he got from point A to Point B. Brady has had the most "dressed up" career and yet nobody seems to care. This proves my original post about him being overrated. Not saying he's not very good, just saying he's not as good as the dressed up career leads you to believe. Even his supporters and admirers like CJ and Gus fail to look at HOW Brady did what he did in a team game, they just are polarized and are tossing all logic out the window. with Zenyatta they'll tell you about the context of her career, but not with Brady, with him it's just about wins, losses and rings and it doesn't matter how he got them.

RE-READ POST #76.....END OF STORY

[ReplayRandall]

thank you for reading my poker reports and i'm glad you enjoy them. and please post there in the 2015 thread so i don't forget to let you know if i move the reports to another site.

as for my comments here, i never said that brady wasn't a hall of fame qb or one of the best ever so maybe others here with more extreme views would be better targets for "stick to poker" attacks? i don't agree with master cj's position that he's a slam dunk goat like jerry rice at wr.

if you think matt cassel would've had success with the colts then we'll just have to agree to disagree. if you think the colts consistently field top to bottom better rosters than teams like pittsburgh, new england, cincinnati, and baltimore then we'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

happy new year though!! :)

NO, you need to stick to poker....I don't care for your "I'm taking my thread to 2+2" threat. What's the need for that kind of comment?

[MJC922]

Is Belichick REALLY that much better as a coach than everybody else?

What was his record when he coached the Cleveland Browns for 5 years?

In the 90's he was a good defensive coordinator and that's about it. That he does any good at all today as a head coach should be a clear indication of how average the NFL has become since the late 90's salary cap. Guys like him were complete tosses in the playoffs back in the Walsh and Parcells days, he had no chance then, he was like a Pete Carroll or Jim Mora type, a decent record in the regular season with zero playoff chances.

There's also no way IMO anyone can compare QBs of today with what came before, it just isn't possible to make a true assessment. It's like saying a horse with one start won by 20 will be a graded stakes horse. Pure speculation. The offensive and defense lines it took to win NFC playoff games back then would steamroll any of these modern teams. These days if you have a decent offensive line that's about all you need to win a Super Bowl. Look at the Bills when they lost to Dallas in the early 90s, Dallas was about 30 points the better team, I'd take that Buffalo team at -7 to any modern team all day long. So that's the NFL today IMO about 35 points worse at the very top than it once was. :)

[proximity]

I never said that Belichick wasn't a great coach, either. My only "criticism" of him here was when I replied to SRU's post, that Belichick is "10X better than anybody else" in coaching. But you said that my opinion was "comical and sad...and out of harmony with the rest of my posting body here".

My Belichick opinion is comical and sad...but your Brady opinion isn't?

i get that you think brady's the goat and i don't but i don't see how my opinion that he's very high on the all time list equates with implications that belichick is just lucky that he has brady and that his real coaching ability is more in line with his w-l record in cleveland or with drew bledsoe.

and btw, if i misunderstood your posts to me I AM sorry.




How "great" was "bb" in New England...when he had Bledsoe as QB?

[woodtoo]

Make Tom Bradys'ankles great again. Heard at a Trump rally. :D

[proximity]

NO, you need to stick to poker....I don't care for your "I'm taking my thread to 2+2" threat. What's the need for that kind of comment?

it's not a threat, but it is a possibility that more people could read and comment on the thread including players who consistently play at the casinos i do. manu918 is the only player here does.

[thaskalos]

i get that you think brady's the goat and i don't but i don't see how my opinion that he's very high on the all time list equates with implications that belichick is just lucky that he has brady and that his real coaching ability is more in line with his w-l record in cleveland or with drew bledsoe.

and btw, if i misunderstood your posts to me I AM sorry.

Drew Bledsoe was a perennial Pro-Bowler in the mid to late 90s, and was regarded highly enough to be offered a then-record contract after the 2000 season...so, you can't really say that Belichick was hurting at the QB position with Bledsoe. So...why can't we take the Bledsoe years as a indication of Belichick's coaching ability?

He was a "good" coach with Bledsoe...and he became a "genius" with Brady. And that's what I've been saying all along here.

[proximity]

Drew Bledsoe was a perennial Pro-Bowler in the mid to late 90s, and was regarded highly enough to be offered a then-record contract after the 2000 season...so, you can't really say that Belichick was hurting at the QB position with Bledsoe. So...why can't we take the Bledsoe years as a indication of Belichick's coaching ability?

He was a "good" coach with Bledsoe...and he became a "genius" with Brady. And that's what I've been saying all along here.

what you're saying is fair and i'd also say it isn't unreasonable that his actual coaching did get better with time.

[Stillriledup]

RE-READ POST #76.....END OF STORY

Yes, quickly end the story and do you know why the story must be ended ASAP?

To limit the exposure. I'm digging deeper into the what, when, where how's and whys and all you're doing is parroting what the mainstream media thinks, there's no 'advanced math' that makes Brady better than dozens of QBs before and current, but if you let yourself judge this on emotion, you won't be thinking with a clear head.

[Stillriledup]

Drew Bledsoe was a perennial Pro-Bowler in the mid to late 90s, and was regarded highly enough to be offered a then-record contract after the 2000 season...so, you can't really say that Belichick was hurting at the QB position with Bledsoe. So...why can't we take the Bledsoe years as a indication of Belichick's coaching ability?

He was a "good" coach with Bledsoe...and he became a "genius" with Brady. And that's what I've been saying all along here.

The Belichick argument from his Cleveland days only flies if you think he's just an average coach and nothing special. It's universally accepted he's the best in the game today and has been the best for a very long time, also one of the top 5 coaches in history. Are you debating what's universally accepted about him?

[thaskalos]

The Belichick argument from his Cleveland days only flies if you think he's just an average coach and nothing special. It's universally accepted he's the best in the game today and has been the best for a very long time, also one of the top 5 coaches in history. Are you debating what's universally accepted about him?

I am not talking about the "Cleveland argument". I am talking about his tenure in New England, with Bledsoe as QB. Bledsoe went to the Pro Bowl three or four times during the mid to late 90s...and signed a record contract right before he got injured in 2001. If Bledsoe was the highest-paid player in the league and a Pro Bowl QB, and Belichick was a "genius"...then why was it necessary for BRADY to step in, so NE could experience their "glory years"?

Forget about Cleveland...and answer me THAT.

[Stillriledup]

I am not talking about the "Cleveland argument". I am talking about his tenure in New England, with Bledsoe as QB. Bledsoe went to the Pro Bowl three or four times during the mid to late 90s...and signed a record contract right before he got injured in 2001. If Bledsoe was the highest-paid player in the league and a Pro Bowl QB, and Belichick was a "genius"...then why was it necessary for BRADY to step in, so NE could experience their "glory years"?

Forget about Cleveland...and answer me THAT.

I think you can't bring up Cleveland unless you're prepared to debate whether or not you think Belichick is a Titan among coaching greats.

I don't know much about the Bledsoe years, but it really all comes down to whether or not you think Belichick is great. If you think he's average and Brady makes him great, you can say that. It seems that's what you are implying.

[thaskalos]

I think you can't bring up Cleveland unless you're prepared to debate whether or not you think Belichick is a Titan among coaching greats.

I don't know much about the Bledsoe years, but it really all comes down to whether or not you think Belichick is great. If you think he's average and Brady makes him great, you can say that. It seems that's what you are implying.

It was YOU who called Brady overrated...and you said that his accomplishments are primarily attributed to Belichick's "genius". And I am asking you where Belichick's "genius" was hiding while he had Bledsoe at QB.

What do you mean you don't know about the "Bledsoe years"? You know about Belichick's years in Cleveland...but you forgot about his Bledsoe years?

[proximity]

It was YOU who called Brady overrated...and you said that his accomplishments are primarily attributed to Belichick's "genius". And I am asking you where Belichick's "genius" was hiding while he had Bledsoe at QB.

What do you mean you don't know about the "Bledsoe years"? You know about Belichick's years in Cleveland...but you forgot about his Bledsoe years?

midway through the second year (about after the broncos game) i'd say belichick's imprint on the defense really started to show and THIS is what really got the ball rolling for new england. in the long run though they certainly were better off with brady no doubt.

[thaskalos]

midway through the second year (about after the broncos game) i'd say belichick's imprint on the defense really started to show and THIS is what really got the ball rolling for new england. in the long run though they certainly were better off with brady no doubt.

The original topic raised in this thread was that Brady was overrated. It is a RIDICULOUS argument, IMO...especially when you consider that most of the posters here seem to be of the opinion that Brady is/was "nothing special". We got people mentioning Elway, Manning, Marino and even Luck in this thread...and SRU stated that 50 or 100 QBs could do what Brady has done...given the same circumstances.

If this board is indicative of what the REST of the fans out there think...then, not only ISN'T Brady "overrated"...but he might be the most UNDERRATED quarterback in history.

[Stillriledup]

It was YOU who called Brady overrated...and you said that his accomplishments are primarily attributed to Belichick's "genius". And I am asking you where Belichick's "genius" was hiding while he had Bledsoe at QB.

What do you mean you don't know about the "Bledsoe years"? You know about Belichick's years in Cleveland...but you forgot about his Bledsoe years?

I don't know about belichicks years in Cleveland either, none of that has anything to do with his greatness. He's either great, or he's not. My position is that he's better than all the other coaches and has been the top coach in the NFL for quite a while. Your argument is that he's not necessarily better than a lot of coaches but Brady makes it seem that he's much better.

This isn't a thread that's trying to suggest Brady isn't great. He most definitely is one of the best ever. Overrated and great are two entirely different things, overrated has zero to do with actual football, it's the PERCEPTION of how good a player is in real life vs how good he's perceived to be.

Let me put it another way. If someone equal to Bledsoe replaced Brady tomorrow or replaced him for the last decade, the Patriots would not have been as good. If I asked you to list the top 5 qbs of all time in your opinion, you would place Tom first, right? Than you would have 4 other guys, my opinion is that all those guys would have been just as successful as Brady if they were put in Brady's shoes, but the PERCEPTION is that they wouldn't have, the perception is that Brady is somehow more physically gifted than Manning, Marino, Favre, Montana etc my point is that he's not, so that's why he's overrated.

[proximity]

The original topic raised in this thread was that Brady was overrated. It is a RIDICULOUS argument, IMO...especially when you consider that most of the posters here seem to be of the opinion that Brady is/was "nothing special". We got people mentioning Elway, Manning, Marino and even Luck in this thread...and SRU stated that 50 or 100 QBs could do what Brady has done...given the same circumstances.

If this board is indicative of what the REST of the fans out there think...then, not only ISN'T Brady "overrated"...but he might be the most UNDERRATED quarterback in history.

i think only one poster here thinks brady's "nothing special" and i only mentioned luck as an example of a good quarterback with a poor offensive line.

[Valuist]

How "great" would Belichek be if Brady wasn't his QB for the last decade and a half? He may still be a very good coach, but he needs Brady more than the other way around.

Brady had Moss for 2-3 years and has Gronk now. Other than that, who were the great receivers Brady had to throw to? Welker was a nobody when New England got him.

[Stillriledup]

How "great" would Belichek be if Brady wasn't his QB for the last decade and a half? He may still be a very good coach, but he needs Brady more than the other way around.

Brady had Moss for 2-3 years and has Gronk now. Other than that, who were the great receivers Brady had to throw to? Welker was a nobody when New England got him.

Do you know why NE got Welker?

Because Bill saw him on tape during his game planning and said 'I don't know how to cover this guy' so they went out and got him. He was a nobody but Belichick knew otherwise from the tape.

[Valuist]

Do you know why NE got Welker?

Because Bill saw him on tape during his game planning and said 'I don't know how to cover this guy' so they went out and got him. He was a nobody but Belichick knew otherwise from the tape.

Nobody is criticizing Belichek. I said he needed Brady more than vica versa. And going from a combo of Joey Harrington/Daunte Culpepper to Brady had to be like going to heaven for Welker.

[RXB]

If team results are used as a proxy for the ability of the quarterback-- as has been done in several posts within this thread-- then Archie Manning would be one of the worst QB's in NFL history.

Try floating that theory to his teammates, coaches or opponents.

As far as Brady being overrated, if somebody says he's the greatest by far then I'd say that's overrating him. If someone says he belongs within a small group of guys who are at the top of the all-time heap, I'd say that's accurate. I'm fairly sure that most people would subscribe to the latter rather than the former therefore I don't think Brady is overrated by the general public.

It's a team sport. QB is unquestionably the most important single position but nowhere near as important as the other positions combined. Which is how guys like Hostetler and Dilfer were starting QB's on teams that won the Super Bowl. It's why John Elway won two Super Bowl rings past his personal prime but didn't get any in his own best years.

[Stillriledup]

If team results are used as a proxy for the ability of the quarterback-- as has been done in several posts within this thread-- then Archie Manning would be one of the worst QB's in NFL history.

Try floating that theory to his teammates, coaches or opponents.

As far as Brady being overrated, if somebody says he's the greatest by far then I'd say that's overrating him. If someone says he belongs within a small group of guys who are at the top of the all-time heap, I'd say that's accurate. I'm fairly sure that most people would subscribe to the latter rather than the former therefore I don't think Brady is overrated by the general public.

It's a team sport. QB is unquestionably the most important single position but nowhere near as important as the other positions combined. Which is how guys like Hostetler and Dilfer were starting QB's on teams that won the Super Bowl. It's why John Elway won two Super Bowl rings past his personal prime but didn't get any in his own best years.

Good post. To touch on your middle paragraph, the guys in this thread who support Brady are saying greatest by far. There are mostly three schools of thought on Brady, you either think he's the best by far, you think he's the best but it's close or you think he's in the mix with the 5 or 10 best. In a small sample of intelligent posters at PA, the consensus in this thread is that he's better than the 'in the mix' group, which is where he belongs.

If everyone placed him in the 'in the mix' group, than he would be properly rated. If this thread is any indication of the perception of Brady, he's being overrated by the public at large.

[ebcorde]

Belicheck goes against the trend. He's a defensive coach therefore he knows what defenses don't like or are not prepared for.

example: his clear preference for small elusive receivers in his short passing game.
why? IMHO, As the league moved to more tall wr's, defenses responded with tall db's. But Belicheck does the opposite, goes with small elusive WR guys, throws short passes and viola! Belicheck gives himself an advantage against taller defenders. Makes Brady look better than what he is, all Tom has to learn is a quick drop and throw.

[ManU918]

NO, you need to stick to poker....I don't care for your "I'm taking my thread to 2+2" threat. What's the need for that kind of comment?

There was never any threat made. He thanked you for reading his thread and told you to check in just in case he brings his poker writing to another site. That is unless you were being sarcastic about liking his thread.

As far as the best QB goes it's all opinion. You're never going to walk into a bar, restaurant, etc ask this question and get a near anonymous decision from the patrons (unless your in the New England or San Francisco area).

[ReplayRandall]

There was never any threat made. He thanked you for reading his thread and told you to check in just in case he brings his poker writing to another site. That is unless you were being sarcastic about liking his thread.

As far as the best QB goes it's all opinion. You're never going to walk into a bar, restaurant, etc ask this question and get a near anonymous decision from the patrons (unless your in the New England or San Francisco area).

What's not to like about Proxy's thread on poker? Simple solution, no need to tell us about 2+2, just continue to post daily exploits here, copy and paste over there. This way, he has the best of both sites. The follow-ups at the different sites will take their own twists and turns, Proxy will be twice as engaging and informative.

[ManU918]

What's not to like about Proxy's thread on poker? Simple solution, no need to tell us about 2+2, just continue to post daily exploits here, copy and paste over there. This way, he has the best of both sites. The follow-ups at the different sites will take their own twists and turns, Proxy will be twice as engaging and informative.

He was probably doing it as a courtesy for those of us who do post at 2+2.

[proximity]

What's not to like about Proxy's thread on poker? Simple solution, no need to tell us about 2+2, just continue to post daily exploits here, copy and paste over there. This way, he has the best of both sites. The follow-ups at the different sites will take their own twists and turns, Proxy will be twice as engaging and informative.

or be wearing a straitjacket in a padded room by derby day. ;)

ttt 4 tom terrific.....

[ReplayRandall]

or be wearing a straitjacket in a padded room by derby day. ;)

ttt 4 tom terrific.....

Trust me Proxy, you're one of the GOOD ones, here at PA.. ;)

[Secondbest]

Boomer Easison on Inside the NFL tonight. Tom Brady is the greatest QB ever.No argument
from Phil Simms

[thaskalos]

Boomer Easison on Inside the NFL tonight. Tom Brady is the greatest QB ever.No argument
from Phil Simms

Is Proximity aware of this? :)

[cj]

Is Proximity aware of this? :)

What do those guys know about football? ;)

[thaskalos]

What do those guys know about football? ;)
And then Proximity tells me to stop posting in the NFL threads here.

How do I know that Esiason and Simms didn't get this idea about Brady's "greatness", from my posts here?

[proximity]

Is Proximity aware of this? :)

no, he's over at 2+2....... :)

[thaskalos]

no, he's over at 2+2....... :)
Go to 2+2...and tell them that you sit at the 1/2 NL tables with only a 20bb buy-in, while refusing to rebuy...and see what sort of reaction you will get. :)

[proximity]

Go to 2+2...and tell them that you sit at the 1/2 NL tables with only a 20bb buy-in, while refusing to rebuy...and see what sort of reaction you will get. :)

in our last nl games i bought for 50 and you bought for 60. not that big of a difference. especially since i hadn't been playing too much nl.

let's remember too that (albeit only 1 bb a game) i also have a losing record in nl so sans comps it isn't clear that i should play period.

[thaskalos]

in our last nl games i bought for 50 and you bought for 60. not that big of a difference. especially since i hadn't been playing too much nl.

let's remember too that (albeit only 1 bb a game) i also have a losing record in nl so sans comps it isn't clear that i should play period.
I bought in for 60 because they won't allow you to sit down with more in that game. I've already written plenty about the importance of sitting down with an adequate sum...but I don't know if you've read what I've posted.

I've never criticized your buy-in...I've disagreed with you about your reluctance to rebuy when you get really short. There is a difference...

[Valuist]

Greatest regular season QB? Peyton Manning. Greatest overall QB? Its Brady.

Montana was great but was surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers. When he left and Steve Young took over, the team hardly missed a beat.

1. Brady 2. Peyton 3. Montana 4. Elway 5. tie between Unitas and Staubach

Its easy to overlook the old timers because their numbers pale in comparison, but the rules weren't stilted to favor the offense, like today.

[proximity]

I bought in for 60 because they won't allow you to sit down with more in that game. I've already written plenty about the importance of sitting down with an adequate sum...but I don't know if you've read what I've posted.

I've never criticized your buy-in...I've disagreed with you about your reluctance to rebuy when you get really short. There is a difference...


why nit-pick over something that's a situation i'm only in in a small percentage of my time at the tables? just to show i'm a loser? haven't the two threads made that clear enough?

winners, and big winners on there make even more egregious errors. hell, in the cuserounder thread he's made two recent hero calls with ten high, lol.

and of course i do read what you post and i do appreciate what you share here as i've said already.

[thaskalos]

why nit-pick over something that's a situation i'm only in in a small percentage of my time at the tables? just to show i'm a loser? haven't the two threads made that clear enough?

winners, and big winners on there make even more egregious errors. hell, in the cuserounder thread he's made two recent hero calls with ten high, lol.

and of course i do read what you post and i do appreciate what you share here as i've said already.

I think you are getting a little too sensitive. Am I trying to "show that you are a loser", every time I make a suggestion to you? How many times this past year have I posted a comment to you? When we talk poker theory...a little "nit-picking" is always par for the course. It doesn't mean what you seem to think that it does.

You keep on writing in your poker thread that everyone is a winner here but you. I used to think that you were joking about this in a good-natured way...but I am starting to think that there is a somewhat deeper meaning to those comments of yours.

If you don't want us to comment on your play...then just say so.

[proximity]

I think you are getting a little too sensitive. Am I trying to "show that you are a loser", every time I make a suggestion to you? How many times this past year have I posted a comment to you? When we talk poker theory...a little "nit-picking" is always par for the course. It doesn't mean what you seem to think that it does.

You keep on writing in your poker thread that everyone is a winner here but you. I used to think that you were joking about this in a good-natured way...but I am starting to think that there is a somewhat deeper meaning to those comments of yours.

If you don't want us to comment on your play...then just say so.

the whole thing was pretty much meant to be in a good-natured way for the most part and i was lucky to get a pretty good crowd here of both higher level nl and lim winners, yourself included.

and comments were always encouraged, this one just seemed a little out of place to me since it's something i haven't really been doing and it's a tom brady thread.

[RXB]

Good post. To touch on your middle paragraph, the guys in this thread who support Brady are saying greatest by far. There are mostly three schools of thought on Brady, you either think he's the best by far, you think he's the best but it's close or you think he's in the mix with the 5 or 10 best. In a small sample of intelligent posters at PA, the consensus in this thread is that he's better than the 'in the mix' group, which is where he belongs.

If everyone placed him in the 'in the mix' group, than he would be properly rated. If this thread is any indication of the perception of Brady, he's being overrated by the public at large.

So then, why in an earlier post did you add 0's to both the "5" and the "10" when you estimated the number of "competent" QB's that could've accomplished what Brady has?

[Stillriledup]

Boomer Easison on Inside the NFL tonight. Tom Brady is the greatest QB ever.No argument
from Phil Simms

Why would Phil Simms argue, there's no bigger Pats fan than him.

[Stillriledup]

So then, why in an earlier post did you add 0's to both the "5" and the "10" when you estimated the number of "competent" QB's that could've accomplished what Brady has?

Because Brady gets credit for actually doing it. He gets credit for being in the right place at the right time.

[mountainman]

Greatest regular season QB? Peyton Manning. Greatest overall QB? Its Brady.

Montana was great but was surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers. When he left and Steve Young took over, the team hardly missed a beat.

1. Brady 2. Peyton 3. Montana 4. Elway 5. tie between Unitas and Staubach

Its easy to overlook the old timers because their numbers pale in comparison, but the rules weren't stilted to favor the offense, like today.

Terry Bradshaw is not the goat, but he is, hands down, the most underappreciated QB in history.

[Valuist]

Terry Bradshaw is not the goat, but he is, hands down, the most underappreciated QB in history.

Isn't Bradshaw in the Hall of Fame? And didn't he have TWO Hall of Fame receivers and a HOF running back, as well as a defense, that arguably, was the best ever over at least 5 consecutive years? I would strongly disagree with your assertion.

[kingfin66]

Greatest regular season QB? Peyton Manning. Greatest overall QB? Its Brady.

Montana was great but was surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers. When he left and Steve Young took over, the team hardly missed a beat.

1. Brady 2. Peyton 3. Montana 4. Elway 5. tie between Unitas and Staubach

Its easy to overlook the old timers because their numbers pale in comparison, but the rules weren't stilted to favor the offense, like today.

That is one helluva top 5, but I think Steve Young is the greatest of all time and Brady is number 2. You could make an argument for any those guys though.

[kingfin66]

Terry Bradshaw is not the goat, but he is, hands down, the most underappreciated QB in history.

Can you be under appreciated if you are in the HOF? If so, then my under appreciated QB is Len Dawson. For non HOFs, I think that former Bengals QB Ken Anderson is very under appreciated and should be in the HOF.

[Stillriledup]

Greatest regular season QB? Peyton Manning. Greatest overall QB? Its Brady.

Montana was great but was surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers. When he left and Steve Young took over, the team hardly missed a beat.

1. Brady 2. Peyton 3. Montana 4. Elway 5. tie between Unitas and Staubach

Its easy to overlook the old timers because their numbers pale in comparison, but the rules weren't stilted to favor the offense, like today.

Can't you say that Montana made those hall of famers hall of famers?

[Stillriledup]

Isn't Bradshaw in the Hall of Fame? And didn't he have TWO Hall of Fame receivers and a HOF running back, as well as a defense, that arguably, was the best ever over at least 5 consecutive years? I would strongly disagree with your assertion.

On the one hand, you're holding Bradshaws accomplishments against him because he played with HOF players but not holding anything against Brady when he's played in an incredibly weak division that afforded him essentially 6 free wins per year which got him the bye week and 2 cushy home games in the playoffs as well as the games all time best coach. What's the difference?

[cj]

On the one hand, you're holding Bradshaws accomplishments against him because he played with HOF players but not holding anything against Brady when he's played in an incredibly weak division that afforded him essentially 6 free wins per year which got him the bye week and 2 cushy home games in the playoffs as well as the games all time best coach. What's the difference?

That isn't what Valuist is saying at all.

[cj]

Can't you say that Montana made those hall of famers hall of famers?

How many of Brady's "weapons" will join him in the Hall of Fame? Maybe Gronk? Maybe Moss, though he had him like a year and a half. That's it.

[thaskalos]

On the one hand, you're holding Bradshaws accomplishments against him because he played with HOF players but not holding anything against Brady when he's played in an incredibly weak division that afforded him essentially 6 free wins per year which got him the bye week and 2 cushy home games in the playoffs as well as the games all time best coach. What's the difference?
Esiason and Simms have gone on record to declare that Brady is the best QB ever...and you are still trying to paint him as "overrated"? You are fighting a losing battle here, SRU. You ain't up against just me and Cj anymore. :)

[Stillriledup]

Esiason and Simms have gone on record to declare that Brady is the best QB ever...and you are still trying to paint him as "overrated"? You are fighting a losing battle here, SRU. You ain't up against just me and Cj anymore. :)

Simms is the biggest Pats fan going, so what he thinks is irrelevant.

Your obsession w Brady is proof positive that he's overrated, don't forget that the thread is about public perception and has zero to do with football talent. The 'best ever' can only possibly be overrated, Michael Jordan for example could never be underrated or properly rated but his rating has nothing to do with his greatness as a player it's just the perception people have of him, two different things entirely.

I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to understand that calling someone overrated is in no way taking a shot at their talent even though many people often use the term overrated to suggest a person isn't that good at their craft, that's not my position.

[Stillriledup]

How many of Brady's "weapons" will join him in the Hall of Fame? Maybe Gronk? Maybe Moss, though he had him like a year and a half. That's it.

Maybe if Brady was better he would have more 'weapons' joining him? Lotsa ways to look at it.

[Stillriledup]

That isn't what Valuist is saying at all.

He's saying That you need to keep Terry's teammates in mind, but isn't saying you need to keep Brady's coach or weak division/schedules In mind. That's what I think he's saying. If not, I'm sure he can set the record straight

[MutuelClerk]

How many of Brady's "weapons" will join him in the Hall of Fame? Maybe Gronk? Maybe Moss, though he had him like a year and a half. That's it.

Belichick is a pretty good weapon.

[Stillriledup]

Belichick is a pretty good weapon.

Ya think? 😃

Also a factor is team chemistry and teamwork, hall of fames are for individual stars not for players who did things for the good of the team.

Sharp post MC 👊

[RXB]

Brady's coach or weak division/schedules

You are overplaying the "weak division" angle. The aggregate record of the other teams in the Patriots' division since 2001 is 331-405 (45% wins). Against the Patriots, they went 21-71 (23% wins), against everyone else 310-334 (48% wins). In the Patriots' four championship seasons the second team in the division was 11-5, 10-6, 10-6, 9-7.

[Stillriledup]

You are overplaying the "weak division" angle. The aggregate record of the other teams in the Patriots' division since 2001 is 331-405 (45% wins). Against the Patriots, they went 21-71 (23% wins), against everyone else 310-334 (48% wins). In the Patriots' four championship seasons the second team in the division was 11-5, 10-6, 10-6, 9-7.

Seems like I'm underplaying it. Thanks for the numbers. :ThmbUp:

[RXB]

Seems like I'm underplaying it. Thanks for the numbers. :ThmbUp:

Brilliant conclusion, Albert. If you take out the top team, most divisions are going to be sub-.500.

Patriots vs. AFC East: 71-21 (77%)
Patriots vs. others: 111-37 (75%)

Yeah, it's that weak AFC East that has been propping up the Patriots' record.

[cj]

Brilliant conclusion, Albert. If you take out the top team, most divisions are going to be sub-.500.

Patriots vs. AFC East: 71-21 (77%)
Patriots vs. others: 111-37 (75%)

Yeah, it's that weak AFC East that has been propping up the Patriots' record.

Without that 2% Brady is practically Dan Pastorini. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Brilliant conclusion, Albert. If you take out the top team, most divisions are going to be sub-.500.

Patriots vs. AFC East: 71-21 (77%)
Patriots vs. others: 111-37 (75%)

Yeah, it's that weak AFC East that has been propping up the Patriots' record.

You're just looking at numbers, do you think the pats would have won as many games if they played the Ravens and steelers twice a year instead of buffalo and Miami? Do you think the physical nature of those games might have taken a toll ? If you watch the games you know the bills and fins rolled over on those games they were physical cake walks, they weren't playing teams who weren't scared of them.

[RXB]

You're just looking at numbers, do you think the pats would have won as many games if they played the Ravens and steelers twice a year instead of buffalo and Miami? Do you think the physical nature of those games might have taken a toll ? If you watch the games you know the bills and fins rolled over on those games they were physical cake walks, they weren't playing teams who weren't scared of them.

Blah-blah, you're just building strawmen as usual. Patriots under Belichick are 8-3 vs the Ravens and also 8-3 vs the Steelers.

[Stillriledup]

Blah-blah, you're just building strawmen as usual. Patriots under Belichick are 8-3 vs the Ravens and also 8-3 vs the Steelers.

As usual? What's that supposed to mean?

Your argument is that playing the bills and dolphins twice a year is just as hard as playing Ray Lewis's Ravens and the Steelers twice a year. Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.

[RXB]

As usual? What's that supposed to mean?

Your argument is that playing the bills and dolphins twice a year is just as hard as playing Ray Lewis's Ravens and the Steelers twice a year. Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.

"As usual" is obvious to everyone. As shown yet again when you cherry pick the two worst teams from the East over the past 15 years for comparison with the two top teams from the North. And you do realize that the Steelers didn't have to play themselves, right? And that the Ravens didn't have to play themselves? They only had to play each other, and the Bengals, and the hapless Browns.

Ravens vs. Steelers, 17-17 since 2001. Patriots 15-6 against those two teams in that time. So if they'd all been in the same division, we know who'd have been top dog more often than not. And in three of their four Super Bowl winning seasons, the Patriots won playoff games against those teams (two of those playoff wins on the road in Pittsburgh). Obviously, the effort of playing those big nasty Ravens and Steelers didn't kill off Brady & Co.

[Stillriledup]

"As usual" is obvious to everyone. As shown yet again when you cherry pick the two worst teams from the East over the past 15 years for comparison with the two top teams from the North. And you do realize that the Steelers didn't have to play themselves, right? And that the Ravens didn't have to play themselves? They only had to play each other, and the Bengals, and the hapless Browns.

Ravens vs. Steelers, 17-17 since 2001. Patriots 15-6 against those two teams in that time. So if they'd all been in the same division, we know who'd have been top dog more often than not. And in three of their four Super Bowl winning seasons, the Patriots won playoff games against those teams (two of those playoff wins on the road in Pittsburgh). Obviously, the effort of playing those big nasty Ravens and Steelers didn't kill off Brady & Co.

Playing each team twice every single year would have fueled a rivalry, thus, more hard hitting games, more quality efforts would have been needed. I'm not cherry picking anything, I'm using the Ravens and Steelers as an example, pick any division you want, it's better than getting a vacation in Miami every year vs the soft as charmin dolphins.

Everyone knows Brady has been in a weak division his entire career, a perfect storm where none of the division teams had an elite QB, it was the perfect division to be in if you wanted to win divisions and get bye weeks and only have to win 2 playoff home games to GET to the Super Bowl.

[lamboguy]

Playing each team twice every single year would have fueled a rivalry, thus, more hard hitting games, more quality efforts would have been needed. I'm not cherry picking anything, I'm using the Ravens and Steelers as an example, pick any division you want, it's better than getting a vacation in Miami every year vs the soft as charmin dolphins.

Everyone knows Brady has been in a weak division his entire career, a perfect storm where none of the division teams had an elite QB, it was the perfect division to be in if you wanted to win divisions and get bye weeks and only have to win 2 playoff home games to GET to the Super Bowl.you just proved why Brady is so great. he certainly has been able to keep his top form no matter what level he has had to play.in horseracing its very impossible for horses to go from very weak fields and win in tough ones.Brady answered the bell almost all the time throughout his career, just like Terry Bradshow and Rodger Staubach did for years before him. if anything Brady is way underated

[Stillriledup]

you just proved why Brady is so great. he certainly has been able to keep his top form no matter what level he has had to play.in horseracing its very impossible for horses to go from very weak fields and win in tough ones.Brady answered the bell almost all the time throughout his career, just like Terry Bradshow and Rodger Staubach did for years before him. if anything Brady is way underated

I've never said he wasn't great.

Also, you can't be underrated if everyone thinks you're far better than the 2nd best player.

[thaskalos]

Also, you can't be underrated if everyone thinks you're far better than the 2nd best player.
"Everyone" doesn't think that. Here YOU are, telling us that 50-100 quarterbacks could have done what Brady has done.

[rastajenk]

I think his post #190 is proof positive that he's merely trollin' trollin' trollin', his fingers must be swollen, from trollin'! Doesn't matter what anyone says, he'll move the goalposts, misdirect, maybe even contradict himself, and thirteen pages into it, he's still at it. :p

[Stillriledup]

"Everyone" doesn't think that. Here YOU are, telling us that 50-100 quarterbacks could have done what Brady has done.
I'm the only one. Everyone else is suckin his kneecaps.

[Stillriledup]

"Everyone" doesn't think that. Here YOU are, telling us that 50-100 quarterbacks could have done what Brady has done.

Do you think we would be talking about best of all time had Brady been drafted by the Cleveland Browns and played his entire career there with 0 titles and probably 0 playoff wins?

[cj]

Do you think we would be talking about best of all time had Brady been drafted by the Cleveland Browns and played his entire career there with 0 titles and probably 0 playoff wins?

As I've said many times, pure speculation. No way to ever know. He also could have won 8 Super Bowls in Cleveland...we'll never know. Great QBs have been in great organizations before and none have been to six Super Bowls.

[RXB]

Playing each team twice every single year would have fueled a rivalry, thus, more hard hitting games, more quality efforts would have been needed. I'm not cherry picking anything, I'm using the Ravens and Steelers as an example, pick any division you want, it's better than getting a vacation in Miami every year vs the soft as charmin dolphins.

Everyone knows Brady has been in a weak division his entire career, a perfect storm where none of the division teams had an elite QB, it was the perfect division to be in if you wanted to win divisions and get bye weeks and only have to win 2 playoff home games to GET to the Super Bowl.

Guess which division has the most regular season wins and also the most post-season wins since the current divisions were implemented in 2002.

The Jets have six playoff wins during that span which is the fifth highest total in the AFC. Five of those wins came on the road, which is second most after the Ravens who have six road playoff wins.

So, you've tried to claim that the Patriots have fed on a weak division, even though their winning percentage is almost identical outside their division compared to inside it. You've tried to claim that things would be different against the Ravens and Steelers but the Patriots are 15-6 against those two clubs during their run of success and twice won the AFC Championship game in Pittsburgh (against 13-3 and 15-1 Steelers teams) before winning the Super Bowl.

You might also try to remember that by finishing first almost every year the Patriots get a schedule that has them playing the other AFC division winners from the previous year instead of lower-placed teams.

In other words, almost everything you've said can be refuted with FACTS.

[Stillriledup]

As I've said many times, pure speculation. No way to ever know. He also could have won 8 Super Bowls in Cleveland...we'll never know. Great QBs have been in great organizations before and none have been to six Super Bowls.

But if a great QB is in a bad organization, he wins zero SBs like Dan Marino. So Brady is winning multiple SBs in Cleveland but Marino wins 0 in Miami. C'mon CJ.

[proximity]

with joe thomas and alex mack on the line i think in the last few years that brady would've done really well in cleveland. if brady's there maybe josh gordon stays focused too?

[Stillriledup]

with joe thomas and alex mack on the line i think in the last few years that brady would've done really well in cleveland. if brady's there maybe josh gordon stays focused too?

Organizations with no heart aren't going to find heart with Tom Brady. Look at Cincinnati tonight, gutless filth they have always been gutless filth, same as Cleveland. In fact the entire city of Cleveland is gutless they don't win titles, Tom Brady wouldn't have changed that.

[Stillriledup]

Guess which division has the most regular season wins and also the most post-season wins since the current divisions were implemented in 2002.

The Jets have six playoff wins during that span which is the fifth highest total in the AFC. Five of those wins came on the road, which is second most after the Ravens who have six road playoff wins.

So, you've tried to claim that the Patriots have fed on a weak division, even though their winning percentage is almost identical outside their division compared to inside it. You've tried to claim that things would be different against the Ravens and Steelers but the Patriots are 15-6 against those two clubs during their run of success and twice won the AFC Championship game in Pittsburgh (against 13-3 and 15-1 Steelers teams) before winning the Super Bowl.

You might also try to remember that by finishing first almost every year the Patriots get a schedule that has them playing the other AFC division winners from the previous year instead of lower-placed teams.

In other words, almost everything you've said can be refuted with FACTS.

You could talk about the facts, but here's another fact. If New England was in the Pitt division, there would be some animosity towards the Pats, they woud get into these vicious twice a year physical rivalries w these teams, look what happened tonight, the bills, fins and jets don't play this 'personal hate' game with the Pats, the Pats division, wins and losses aside, isn't filled with this much animosity, a guy like Big Ben has been involved in many more physical wars than Brady, the game tonight is a game New England has never known.

[thaskalos]

You could talk about the facts, but here's another fact. If New England was in the Pitt division, there would be some animosity towards the Pats, they woud get into these vicious twice a year physical rivalries w these teams, look what happened tonight, the bills, fins and jets don't play this 'personal hate' game with the Pats, the Pats division, wins and losses aside, isn't filled with this much animosity, a guy like Big Ben has been involved in many more physical wars than Brady, the game tonight is a game New England has never known.

And that's a BAD thing? I wish the game tonight was one that NONE of us had ever known.

[RXB]

You could talk about the facts, but here's another fact. If New England was in the Pitt division, there would be some animosity towards the Pats, they woud get into these vicious twice a year physical rivalries w these teams, look what happened tonight, the bills, fins and jets don't play this 'personal hate' game with the Pats, the Pats division, wins and losses aside, isn't filled with this much animosity, a guy like Big Ben has been involved in many more physical wars than Brady, the game tonight is a game New England has never known.

You're just talking more nonsense. The Patriots have played in lots of heated, important games-- and they've won the vast majority of them. They also aren't nearly as prone to doing stupid things in such situations.

The Patriots' record against the entire league in the regular season and the postseason speaks for itself. You're operating on nothing but inferior reasoning primed with your usual anti-Boston emotion.

[Stillriledup]

You're just talking more nonsense. The Patriots have played in lots of heated, important games-- and they've won the vast majority of them. They also aren't nearly as prone to doing stupid things in such situations.

The Patriots' record against the entire league in the regular season and the postseason speaks for itself. You're operating on nothing but inferior reasoning primed with your usual anti-Boston emotion.

The Pats aren't involved in heated games, who is their biggest rival? The Jets? They don't even have one . You're right about them not doing stupid things, they're pretty smart in that regard, but they're not involved in personal blood wars, they have 6 cushy games each year vs the soft fins, soft bills and mostly soft jets. Who's been the best QB those pats division teams have had in the last decade? Mark Sanchez?

[RXB]

The Pats aren't involved in heated games, who is their biggest rival? The Jets? They don't even have one . You're right about them not doing stupid things, they're pretty smart in that regard, but they're not involved in personal blood wars, they have 6 cushy games each year vs the soft fins, soft bills and mostly soft jets. Who's been the best QB those pats division teams have had in the last decade? Mark Sanchez?

The Patriots go out to win football games, not to involve themselves in blood wars. They leave that to fools like Burfict.

Because the Patriots play a lot of first-place teams from the previous year's regular season, and a lot of postseason games, they've got a large sample of meaningful games against the stronger franchises. So no matter how you try to get away from it: 15-6 vs. Steelers and Ravens, 11-5 Brady vs Manning, 4-2 in the Super Bowl against the NFC champs.

Finally, subtract the team that has won the most games from each of the eight divisions in the NFL starting with 2002, and add up the wins of the three other teams in each division during that span. The AFC East threesome (Jets, Dolphins and Bills) places fifth out of the eight divisions. Just slightly below the median, so your repeated claims that the Patriots have been playing in a super-soft division are not true. And as I noted earlier, with the Patriots included the AFC East has the most regular season wins and the most postseason wins.

[Stillriledup]

The Patriots go out to win football games, not to involve themselves in blood wars. They leave that to fools like Burfict.

Because the Patriots play a lot of first-place teams from the previous year's regular season, and a lot of postseason games, they've got a large sample of meaningful games against the stronger franchises. So no matter how you try to get away from it: 15-6 vs. Steelers and Ravens, 11-5 Brady vs Manning, 4-2 in the Super Bowl against the NFC champs.

Finally, subtract the team that has won the most games from each of the eight divisions in the NFL starting with 2002, and add up the wins of the three other teams in each division during that span. The AFC East threesome (Jets, Dolphins and Bills) places fifth out of the eight divisions. Just slightly below the median, so your repeated claims that the Patriots have been playing in a super-soft division are not true. And as I noted earlier, with the Patriots included the AFC East has the most regular season wins and the most postseason wins.

Thanks for the info and the writeups, I'm not questioning your data, all I know is what my eyes tell me, teams roll over for the Pats physically, they aren't involved in these blood wars, smart on their part, Brady doesn't get hit all that often and when he does, he's not getting slammed to the ground he's being placed down gently by the defender.

If Brady was on Cleveland or some other organization with poor culture he would take more hits and win less games, less playoff games and less titles. guys like Marino (for example) don't get into the conversation of best of all time simply due to his time in history and the team that drafted him, It's pretty easy to open up the stats book and determine that the guy with the 'best career' is the best player, I'd rather dig deeper instead of just anointing the guy who fell into the perfect storm of a career.

There's a reason Brady is looking like a 20 year old at his age, It's because he rarely gets hit and when you rarely get hit, it's because of your teammates.

[cj]

The Patriots go out to win football games, not to involve themselves in blood wars. They leave that to fools like Burfict.

Because the Patriots play a lot of first-place teams from the previous year's regular season, and a lot of postseason games, they've got a large sample of meaningful games against the stronger franchises. So no matter how you try to get away from it: 15-6 vs. Steelers and Ravens, 11-5 Brady vs Manning, 4-2 in the Super Bowl against the NFC champs.

Finally, subtract the team that has won the most games from each of the eight divisions in the NFL starting with 2002, and add up the wins of the three other teams in each division during that span. The AFC East threesome (Jets, Dolphins and Bills) places fifth out of the eight divisions. Just slightly below the median, so your repeated claims that the Patriots have been playing in a super-soft division are not true. And as I noted earlier, with the Patriots included the AFC East has the most regular season wins and the most postseason wins.

I mentioned on Twitter yesterday that intelligence is often vastly underrated in pro sports. The Patriots seem to favor smart players and it pays off.

[Secondbest]

I mentioned on Twitter yesterday that intelligence is often vastly underrated in pro sports. The Patriots seem to favor smart players and it pays off.
Very true

[thaskalos]

I mentioned on Twitter yesterday that intelligence is often vastly underrated in pro sports.

In gambling too. And in online posting. ;)

[Valuist]

That isn't what Valuist is saying at all.

You are 100% correct in your response to SRU.

[Stillriledup]

I mentioned on Twitter yesterday that intelligence is often vastly underrated in pro sports. The Patriots seem to favor smart players and it pays off.

This is 100 pct true, Belichick will take a smaller and or slower player over a more physically gifted one knowing that the smarter player can overcome that by being football smart. A guy like Tedi Bruschi was no where near the biggest guy, but he was one step ahead in intelligence, same for guys like Welker, Amendoala, wood head and of course Brady who's probably the smartest of them all.

[proximity]

no coffee for tom terrific.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tom-brady-coffee_56940beae4b0c8beacf7fac7?

possible sru soulmate in the comments? :D

Susan Hottinger · UW-Whitewater
Would Tom Brady be as awesome if he couldn't just sit protected back in the pocket? I don't think so.

[Stillriledup]

no coffee for tom terrific.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tom-brady-coffee_56940beae4b0c8beacf7fac7?

possible sru soulmate in the comments? :D

Susan Hottinger · UW-Whitewater
Would Tom Brady be as awesome if he couldn't just sit protected back in the pocket? I don't think so.

You gotta admit it's a lot easier playing QB while on your feet vs on your back.

Of course, probably a coincidence that 'the best ever' was also the guy who got hit and hurried the least. ;)

[Robert Fischer]

This is 100 pct true, Belichick will take a smaller and or slower player over a more physically gifted one knowing that the smarter player can overcome that by being football smart. A guy like Tedi Bruschi was no where near the biggest guy, but he was one step ahead in intelligence, same for guys like Welker, Amendoala, wood head and of course Brady who's probably the smartest of them all.

Everyone should have a basketball TE (or in the Pat's case a WWF superstars TE)
and everyone should have a Welker/Amendola/Woodhead WR.

Those types of wide receivers not only fit a role (over the middle, agility routes) - they also build a rapport and a chemistry type of relationship with your typical QB.

[Stillriledup]

Everyone should have a basketball TE (or in the Pat's case a WWF superstars TE)
and everyone should have a Welker/Amendola/Woodhead WR.

Those types of wide receivers not only fit a role (over the middle, agility routes) - they also build a rapport and a chemistry type of relationship with your typical QB.
Woodhead was giving Denver fits in the last game of year for SD.

SD has that basketball player TE and Woodhead, finished 4-12 but these guys were tough to play against because of that.

[jballscalls]

looked back at the beginning of this thread and really Thaskalos ended the discussion in post #2 with the answer to the original question. Entertaining nonetheless

[Stillriledup]

looked back at the beginning of this thread and really Thaskalos ended the discussion in post #2 with the answer to the original question. Entertaining nonetheless

Overrated is a perception, which is completely separate from actual talent. You're right, the thread ended in post two which was just more proof that the question 'is he overrated' was emphatically answered. A level headed older gentlemen such as Thaskalos turned into a giggling schoolgirl at the mere mention of Brady's name.

[thaskalos]

A level headed older gentlemen such as Thaskalos turned into a giggling schoolgirl at the mere mention of Brady's name.
Hey...who are you calling "older"?

[Stillriledup]

Hey...who are you calling "older"?

I meant it as a compliment :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

I meant it as a compliment :ThmbUp:

"Older" is a compliment?

Then I'd rather have you INSULT me. :)

[cj]

"Older" is a compliment?

Then I'd rather have you INSULT me. :)

Agree...wiser or smarter works a lot better. :)

[thaskalos]

Agree...wiser or smarter works a lot better. :)

Yes...there is no doubt about it. SRU needs to work on his "compliments". :)

[dartman51]

If you go by STATS, it's pretty much a TOSS UP.

MANNING
Career (1998-2015)
COMP %_______65.3
YARDS________71,940
TD'S__________539
INT___________251
RTG___________96.5
44 4th QTR COMEBACKS
55 GAME WINNING DRIVES

BRADY
Career (2000-2015)
COMP%________63.6
YARDS_________58,028
TD'S___________428
INT____________150
RTG____________96.4
37 4th QTR COMEBACKS
48 GAME WINNING DRIVES

[Chaka26]

As I've said many times, pure speculation. No way to ever know. He also could have won 8 Super Bowls in Cleveland...we'll never know. Great QBs have been in great organizations before and none have been to six Super Bowls.
Hes no gale gilbert, gale went to the superbowl 5 straight years if thats your barometer. Jim kelly went 4 straight bradshaw won 4 of 5 or 6yrs but his stats suck so do his 4 rings mean more than toms 4 as his come with 2 losses??

Great players dont always get there or win if they do...trent dilfer and hostetler have rings are they better than marino fouts or tarkenton?

[Stillriledup]

Hes no gale gilbert, gale went to the superbowl 5 straight years if thats your barometer. Jim kelly went 4 straight bradshaw won 4 of 5 or 6yrs but his stats suck so do his 4 rings mean more than toms 4 as his come with 2 losses??

Great players dont always get there or win if they do...trent dilfer and hostetler have rings are they better than marino fouts or tarkenton?

Brady has been in what, 6 SBs?

Not one of the 6 did he put his team in position to enjoy the 4th quarter because the game was over. All 6 times they were in a perilous position to lose. Could have won all or lost all but never dominated and had an epic performance, plenty of Super Bowls have been won in laughers but Brady's never done it.

He's also lost twice as heavy favorite to Eli Manning who is not considered as good at Peyton.

And this is not even getting into the cheating allegations.

[thaskalos]

Brady has been in what, 6 SBs?

Not one of the 6 did he put his team in position to enjoy the 4th quarter because the game was over. All 6 times they were in a perilous position to lose. Could have won all or lost all but never dominated and had an epic performance, plenty of Super Bowls have been won in laughers but Brady's never done it.

He's also lost twice as heavy favorite to Eli Manning who is not considered as good at Peyton.

And this is not even getting into the cheating allegations.

You are absolutely right, SRU...I never thought of that. And now that I've read this post of yours...I want to change my vote for the best QB ever to DAN FOUTS.

Not only was Fouts a prolific passer at a time when defenses dominated...but he also never put his team through the agony of being involved in a "perilous" Super Bowl situation. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

You are absolutely right, SRU...I never thought of that. And now that I've read this post of yours...I want to change my vote for the best QB ever to DAN FOUTS.

Not only was Fouts a prolific passer at a time when defenses dominated...but he also never put his team through the agony of being involved in a "perilous" Super Bowl situation. :ThmbUp:

You're a smart guy, rethink your position on Brady, there's no need to hold him in any higher esteem than a pretty good QB. He's not even the best guy CURRENTLY so I'm pretty sure that means he's not the best ever.

[thaskalos]

You're a smart guy, rethink your position on Brady, there's no need to hold him in any higher esteem than a pretty good QB. He's not even the best guy CURRENTLY so I'm pretty sure that means he's not the best ever.

You are losing me, SRU...are you even aware that the guy is 38 years old? Who is the best QB currently...if it isn't Brady? In who else's hands would you entrust the ball on a critical drive? Rodgers? Cam? Roethlisberger? These guys have a more impressive body of work...in your opinion?

You started the thread by calling Brady a "great QB"...and now you are back to calling him "pretty good"? I can't tell if you are serious, or if you are yanking my chain here.

[cj]

You're a smart guy, rethink your position on Brady, there's no need to hold him in any higher esteem than a pretty good QB. He's not even the best guy CURRENTLY so I'm pretty sure that means he's not the best ever.

"Pretty good"...now you're just being a troll. Stop.

[Robert Fischer]

Actor/Observer Asymmetry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor%E2%80%93observer_asymmetry)

Except that SRU is kind of doing it in reverse, having internalized the Brady gravy train.

[ReplayRandall]

Tom Brady has an intense ritual where he makes receivers prepare to stare into the sun during afternoon games. Only the mind of an all-time great would think of this:

http://www.businessinsider.com/tom-brady-ritual-for-receivers-before-games-2016-1

[Chaka26]

You are losing me, SRU...are you even aware that the guy is 38 years old? Who is the best QB currently...if it isn't Brady? In who else's hands would you entrust the ball on a critical drive? Rodgers? Cam? Roethlisberger? These guys have a more impressive body of work...in your opinion?

You started the thread by calling Brady a "great QB"...and now you are back to calling him "pretty good"? I can't tell if you are serious, or if you are yanking my chain here.

2 minute drills you lose nothing using Roethlisberger or brees - they are on par with brady

[cj]

2 minute drills you lose nothing using Roethlisberger or brees - they are on par with brady


Good thing games aren't four minutes long for Brady then, he'd only be one of the greatest.

[Stillriledup]

"Pretty good"...now you're just being a troll. Stop.

#199

[Rookies]

You are losing me, SRU...are you even aware that the guy is 38 years old? Who is the best QB currently...if it isn't Brady? In who else's hands would you entrust the ball on a critical drive? Rodgers? Cam? Roethlisberger? These guys have a more impressive body of work...in your opinion?

You started the thread by calling Brady a "great QB"...and now you are back to calling him "pretty good"? I can't tell if you are serious, or if you are yanking my chain here.

THIS is an interesting question- not the troll question about whether Brady is the greatest QB ever. (I stand with my original position on that one that he is 1A to Joe's 1.)

I would say that on the current question, Rodgers is a more pinpoint Passer. He can hit a dime between the numbers from 20 yards away. I would trust both him & Brady to move their teams in the final two minutes for a winning score. However, both teams are hampered presently by critical wideout issues.

Roth won't be able to throw more than 10 yards properly this week & Peyton is clearly past his BBD.

None of these or Breese, E. Manning, Rivers or Wilson is even close to Brady in the 'Best Ever' category!

[Stillriledup]

THIS is an interesting question- not the troll question about whether Brady is the greatest QB ever. (I stand with my original position on that one that he is 1A to Joe's 1.)

I would say that on the current question, Rodgers is a more pinpoint Passer. He can hit a dime between the numbers from 20 yards away. I would trust both him & Brady to move their teams in the final two minutes for a winning score. However, both teams are hampered presently by critical wideout issues.

Roth won't be able to throw more than 10 yards properly this week & Peyton is clearly past his BBD.

None of these or Breese, E. Manning, Rivers or Wilson is even close to Brady in the 'Best Ever' category!

Rodgers is more talented than Brady, even Tedi Bruschi said so :D