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View Full Version : Robotic wagering -- something else bettors have to deal with


TheOracle
12-01-2015, 11:56 PM
I saw this from another post discussion and I saw the below report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/i-robot-the-future-of-horse-race-wagering/


What really disturbed me about the article was that it mentions something known as "Past posting" which is where tracks allow these bots to have the opportunity of getting their wagers in after the gates have opened.

If the report is correct my question is, how long after the gates open do the wagers keep coming in for that particular race? Is it right when the gates first open? Is it right before the finish line?

It stands to reason why this is probably what happens when I see the odds changing as the race is being run.

Overall the bettors now have to deal with the following:


The bots help the track by creating bigger pools
The computer teams get a rebate for generating high betting volume
These teams don't have to make a profit because they're getting a rebate
If or when these teams do make a profit they still get their rebate
At the end of the day it's a win win for the computer teams and a lose lose for the bettors!!

NorCalGreg
12-02-2015, 12:40 AM
Figured it had to be something like this that was going on---what else would explain the wild surges in betting pools in the last few blinks? Wasn't someone just last night, denying most of the money in the pools WASN'T coming in the last few minutes? Hell, all anyone has to do is watch the pools for a day at any track in America to see this happening. Thanks for posting O-man.

biggestal99
12-02-2015, 07:45 AM
Yep, the advent of crw was sure a tough break for the regular players.

And a blessing to any track allows it.

Allan

lamboguy
12-02-2015, 08:49 AM
all these fine innovations has turned me into a rank sucker and another bum in the ballpark.

thank you horse racing 2015

Robert Goren
12-02-2015, 09:20 AM
Even if they are not doing it yet, it is only a matter of time before the computers start manipulating the pools. It is just too profitable not to.

castaway01
12-02-2015, 09:40 AM
I saw this from another post discussion and I saw the below report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/i-robot-the-future-of-horse-race-wagering/


What really disturbed me about the article was that it mentions something known as "Past posting" which is where tracks allow these bots to have the opportunity of getting their wagers in after the gates have opened.

If the report is correct my question is, how long after the gates open do the wagers keep coming in for that particular race? Is it right when the gates first open? Is it right before the finish line?

It stands to reason why this is probably what happens when I see the odds changing as the race is being run.

Overall the bettors now have to deal with the following:


The bots help the track by creating bigger pools
The computer teams get a rebate for generating high betting volume
These teams don't have to make a profit because they're getting a rebate
If or when these teams do make a profit they still get their rebate
At the end of the day it's a win win for the computer teams and a lose lose for the bettors!!

Whether you believe it or not, the article repeatedly says there is no past posting, so why would you read the article and then believe that there is?

Capper Al
12-02-2015, 09:57 AM
I saw this from another post discussion and I saw the below report:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/i-robot-the-future-of-horse-race-wagering/


What really disturbed me about the article was that it mentions something known as "Past posting" which is where tracks allow these bots to have the opportunity of getting their wagers in after the gates have opened.

If the report is correct my question is, how long after the gates open do the wagers keep coming in for that particular race? Is it right when the gates first open? Is it right before the finish line?

It stands to reason why this is probably what happens when I see the odds changing as the race is being run.

Overall the bettors now have to deal with the following:


The bots help the track by creating bigger pools
The computer teams get a rebate for generating high betting volume
These teams don't have to make a profit because they're getting a rebate
If or when these teams do make a profit they still get their rebate
At the end of the day it's a win win for the computer teams and a lose lose for the bettors!!

Thanks for sharing.

Robert Goren
12-02-2015, 09:58 AM
What do you call a wager made that is made well before the gates open but is not entered into the pool until after the gates open? I suspect, but can not prove, this is happening some if not a lot. To be clear, I am talking about wagers made at 1MTP or 2MTP. Where there would be at least one tote flash that could show the bet if it went in right away.

1st time lasix
12-02-2015, 10:10 AM
about 20 seconds

Magister Ludi
12-02-2015, 11:42 AM
Whether you believe it or not, the article repeatedly says there is no past posting, so why would you read the article and then believe that there is?

.....Paris.....
....in the....
..the spring..

People see what they expect to see.

Tom
12-02-2015, 12:53 PM
Whether you believe it or not, the article repeatedly says there is no past posting, so why would you read the article and then believe that there is?

Because talk is cheap?
Saying it an proving it are two different things.

In God we trust.
All else bring data.

hyipro
12-02-2015, 08:58 PM
I do not believe there is, for the simple reason, and you can check this yourself, watch a race on a racing station on TV, then watch the same race on your chosen internet channel (TVG, TWINSPIRES Etc.) there will be a signal delay from the actual race and the internet view, which could lead one
to believe post betting is possible, but it really is an illusion of signal delay.............

lamboguy
12-02-2015, 09:41 PM
I do not believe there is, for the simple reason, and you can check this yourself, watch a race on a racing station on TV, then watch the same race on your chosen internet channel (TVG, TWINSPIRES Etc.) there will be a signal delay from the actual race and the internet view, which could lead one
to believe post betting is possible, but it really is an illusion of signal delay.............it can only be done live at race tracks or with c-band.

Stillriledup
12-02-2015, 10:10 PM
Even if they are not doing it yet, it is only a matter of time before the computers start manipulating the pools. It is just too profitable not to.

Nobody seems to care about manipulation, one day we will have no hopers sitting on the board at 2-5 and go off 80-1, nobody is stopping this, you read about this and all the tracs tell you that the person is a big bettor who just made a mistake or had a change of heart, has any bettor been tossed from his ADW for manipulating or banned from the track? If there's no punishment, they'll keep doing it.

thaskalos
12-02-2015, 10:31 PM
Nobody seems to care about manipulation, one day we will have no hopers sitting on the board at 2-5 and go off 80-1, nobody is stopping this, you read about this and all the tracs tell you that the person is a big bettor who just made a mistake or had a change of heart, has any bettor been tossed from his ADW for manipulating or banned from the track? If there's no punishment, they'll keep doing it.
At a time when the mutuel pools are in drastic decline...you expect the industry to punish the mega-bettors? The industry is bending way backwards to keep them in the game.

Dave Schwartz
12-02-2015, 10:41 PM
At a time when the mutuel pools are in drastic decline...you expect the industry to punish the mega-bettors? The industry is bending way backwards to keep them in the game.

And, ironically, from a mathematical standpoint, the whales hurt handle.

Tom
12-02-2015, 10:45 PM
Pretty soon,, it will be Whale Wars, and the rest of will have moved on.
I would much play poke than bet horses any day of the week. But live, not on the internet.

I want to see the other guy's eyes, see him sweet, smell his fear, hear his heart beating..........watch how he hold his cards. :cool:

Hoofless_Wonder
12-03-2015, 04:08 AM
Nobody seems to care about manipulation, one day we will have no hopers sitting on the board at 2-5 and go off 80-1, nobody is stopping this, you read about this and all the tracs tell you that the person is a big bettor who just made a mistake or had a change of heart, has any bettor been tossed from his ADW for manipulating or banned from the track? If there's no punishment, they'll keep doing it.

With such huge late swings in the odds being commonplace now, don't you think we've hit a limit on "manipulation"? I understand your example, and can't argue with the logic of it, but I think for many of us we're past the point of being "manipulated" by the tote. I have no fear, none, for the CRW teams. In terms of their robotic wagers. If it's really a problem, it can be easily addressed. Don't allow wagers to be canceled, or limit cancellations to three per month. I can't cancel a wager at Hong Kong, and it's not a big deal for me.

The rebates they receive are another story, but we know which side of the fence each of us is on there. Horse racing has many problems, but the impact of CRW is not a big one.

NorCalGreg
12-03-2015, 05:45 AM
Nobody seems to care about manipulation, one day we will have no hopers sitting on the board at 2-5 and go off 80-1, nobody is stopping this, you read about this and all the tracs tell you that the person is a big bettor who just made a mistake or had a change of heart, has any bettor been tossed from his ADW for manipulating or banned from the track? If there's no punishment, they'll keep doing it.


I've never seen this happen, SRU. Not saying it hasn't, I just personally never have. Of course I don't bet at the Hippodromo in Chile either.

If you, or anyone has a verified screen shot of this happening...I would like to see it.

The U.S. ADW's have rules about this sort of thing--wouldn't they suspend your acct in a heartbeat if you tried to manipulate a pool this way? If you read about this again, please post the link--I'd be interested in it--thanks.

cj
12-03-2015, 10:36 AM
I've never seen this happen, SRU. Not saying it hasn't, I just personally never have. Of course I don't bet at the Hippodromo in Chile either.

If you, or anyone has a verified screen shot of this happening...I would like to see it.

The U.S. ADW's have rules about this sort of thing--wouldn't they suspend your acct in a heartbeat if you tried to manipulate a pool this way? If you read about this again, please post the link--I'd be interested in it--thanks.

It's happened a few times already. Not the 2-5 to 80-1 extent, but this isn't that exaggerated. There is always an "investigation" and the results are always the same. It was a mistake or just an honest cancel because the person changed their mind.

This is BS. You make it bet, that is it. Money should not be allowed out of the pools after a few minutes allowing for a real mistake. You want to wait to see the horses, then wait to bet. If you have time to cancel late, you have time bet late.

no breathalyzer
12-03-2015, 11:08 AM
Is Mr. 5000 to win a whale?

MonmouthParkJoe
12-03-2015, 11:13 AM
It was mentioned here but there are no bets that are posted once the gate opens. A steward locks betting once the gates open by pushing a button. Could they be a second or two late, possibly. It is the result of a signal delay and pulling in the remainder of the pools. I would love to see real time wagering odds reflected in the pools, but it would take a significant investment to do so.

These robots operate in the same way the ones on the stock market do. They are not used to handicap, but rather to find value in the pools. While I personally cant stand them, they tend to be more effective in short fields. On big days they usually lose money with the larger and more competitive fields. A four horse field at Aqueduct is right in their wheelhouse, a full field at Saratoga on Travers day isnt.

classhandicapper
12-03-2015, 01:51 PM
I want to see the other guy's eyes, see him sweet, smell his fear, hear his heart beating..........watch how he hold his cards. :cool:

You would enjoy playing against me live. That's why I enjoy internet. :lol:

Robert Goren
12-03-2015, 02:18 PM
With such huge late swings in the odds being commonplace now, don't you think we've hit a limit on "manipulation"? I understand your example, and can't argue with the logic of it, but I think for many of us we're past the point of being "manipulated" by the tote. I have no fear, none, for the CRW teams. In terms of their robotic wagers. If it's really a problem, it can be easily addressed. Don't allow wagers to be canceled, or limit cancellations to three per month. I can't cancel a wager at Hong Kong, and it's not a big deal for me.

The rebates they receive are another story, but we know which side of the fence each of us is on there. Horse racing has many problems, but the impact of CRW is not a big one.I don't have a problem with canceled wagers. It is about the only tool the bettor has to fight the people who dump large bets in last few seconds driving down the odds. A bet that is going to be canceled on horse either stops those bets or at least lessens them to point where the guy who cancels the bets get something resembling decent odds. Sure the average bettor might lose a bet now then, but is not as much of problem to me as the very late flow of a large amount of cash on a horse I bet, driving down the odds well below profitability. I might add the canceled bet is still pretty rare. The late crushing of the odds by a large bet must happen at least several hundred times more often.

Stillriledup
12-03-2015, 10:36 PM
I've never seen this happen, SRU. Not saying it hasn't, I just personally never have. Of course I don't bet at the Hippodromo in Chile either.

If you, or anyone has a verified screen shot of this happening...I would like to see it.

The U.S. ADW's have rules about this sort of thing--wouldn't they suspend your acct in a heartbeat if you tried to manipulate a pool this way? If you read about this again, please post the link--I'd be interested in it--thanks.

I'm not saying it's happened, I said 'one day' we will have this if there's no punishment to the manipulators.

Stillriledup
12-03-2015, 10:40 PM
I don't have a problem with canceled wagers. It is about the only tool the bettor has to fight the people who dump large bets in last few seconds driving down the odds. A bet that is going to be canceled on horse either stops those bets or at least lessens them to point where the guy who cancels the bets get something resembling decent odds. Sure the average bettor might lose a bet now then, but is not as much of problem to me as the very late flow of a large amount of cash on a horse I bet, driving down the odds well below profitability. I might add the canceled bet is still pretty rare. The late crushing of the odds by a large bet must happen at least several hundred times more often.

The tools a bettor has is if he's price sensitive to wait till there's one or 2 horses left to load before making his wager. The other tool is to know the talent of the runners as well as the tendencies of the betting public, if you know a horse is going to be 3-5 at post time, don't bet that horse thinking you're going to get the 2-1 you see at 1 mtp. I'd prefer bettors to be a little smarter at knowing 'market value' on their runners rather than being 'shocked' when they thought they were going to get 2-1 on a legit 3-5 shot.

Hoofless_Wonder
12-04-2015, 03:16 AM
...These robots operate in the same way the ones on the stock market do. They are not used to handicap, but rather to find value in the pools. While I personally cant stand them, they tend to be more effective in short fields. On big days they usually lose money with the larger and more competitive fields. A four horse field at Aqueduct is right in their wheelhouse, a full field at Saratoga on Travers day isnt.

Are you saying that CRW teams are like the High Frequency Trading teams with the stock market? In that case, they are making "false bids" to the stack to influence other computer trading. It is purely manipulation with speed to execution to gain profits.

In the case of horse racing CRW teams, they are definitely linked to algorithms which have handicapped the horse's chances, and are seeking overlays. How much they "manipulate" the pool's prices is up for debate. Only the ADWs would have their record of early wagers which then are canceled.

Hoofless_Wonder
12-04-2015, 03:17 AM
Is Mr. 5000 to win a whale?

A whale, a well-heeled square, or someone drinking. Take your pick.

Robert Goren
12-04-2015, 08:05 AM
The tools a bettor has is if he's price sensitive to wait till there's one or 2 horses left to load before making his wager. The other tool is to know the talent of the runners as well as the tendencies of the betting public, if you know a horse is going to be 3-5 at post time, don't bet that horse thinking you're going to get the 2-1 you see at 1 mtp. I'd prefer bettors to be a little smarter at knowing 'market value' on their runners rather than being 'shocked' when they thought they were going to get 2-1 on a legit 3-5 shot.Getting 2/1 on a legit 3/5 shot is the only way you can make money betting the ponies. It is math thing. If you can't find those kind of bets, you are going to be a long term loser who is constantly reloading his bankroll. When I see 2/1 on a horse I like, I expect the odds to drop, but not to 3/5. Do you have any idea how much money it takes to drop a horse going off at 2/1 in its last flash before the gates to become a 3/5 shot as they are racing down the backstretch? It takes far too much money to cause that kind of drop for the money to becoming from the barn. It has be coming from some big betting operation. If you expect other bettors to sit idly bye and take it, you are wrong. One way you can get decent odds on a horse that that big operation is going to dump on is canceling part of your bet at the last second. You might now get even money on a horse that otherwise would gone off at 3/5. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Of course I don't employ the canceled bet because I am way too small a bettor. But I don't want to see it outlawed either. I think in this day and age of the computer guys balancing the pools so only the people with high rebates and those very few with very special handicapping insight can make money, every tool that allows someone to eek out a few bucks in their war with the computer boys should be allowed. I put the people who don't want bet canceling in the same boat as people who don't want "check and raising" in poker. As far as I am concerned, it is a legit use of game theory in horse racing.

Robert Goren
12-04-2015, 08:13 AM
I do not think it is the CRW teams that are using bet canceling, at least not yet. It just does not happen often enough for them to be using it. The bet canceling is be done by a lone wolf(wolves) operation. At some point the CRW teams may employ it, but right now they raking in so much money, there is no need to make things more complicated and more risky.

lamboguy
12-04-2015, 08:42 PM
what i really don't understand is how can all these big computer guys pile into pools so small now?

Stillriledup
12-04-2015, 09:27 PM
Getting 2/1 on a legit 3/5 shot is the only way you can make money betting the ponies. It is math thing. If you can't find those kind of bets, you are going to be a long term loser who is constantly reloading his bankroll. When I see 2/1 on a horse I like, I expect the odds to drop, but not to 3/5. Do you have any idea how much money it takes to drop a horse going off at 2/1 in its last flash before the gates to become a 3/5 shot as they are racing down the backstretch? It takes far too much money to cause that kind of drop for the money to becoming from the barn. It has be coming from some big betting operation. If you expect other bettors to sit idly bye and take it, you are wrong. One way you can get decent odds on a horse that that big operation is going to dump on is canceling part of your bet at the last second. You might now get even money on a horse that otherwise would gone off at 3/5. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Of course I don't employ the canceled bet because I am way too small a bettor. But I don't want to see it outlawed either. I think in this day and age of the computer guys balancing the pools so only the people with high rebates and those very few with very special handicapping insight can make money, every tool that allows someone to eek out a few bucks in their war with the computer boys should be allowed. I put the people who don't want bet canceling in the same boat as people who don't want "check and raising" in poker. As far as I am concerned, it is a legit use of game theory in horse racing.

To clarify, I used 2-1 to 3-5 as an example, I agree with you that an odds swing that drastic doesn't happen too often.

Dave Schwartz
12-05-2015, 12:44 AM
what i really don't understand is how can all these big computer guys pile into pools so small now?

Lambo, I completely agree.

I cannot say how I have this number (or prove that it is true) but my calculation indicates that at the highest rebate tracks a little over 30% of the pool is the result of 6 players.

Fox
12-05-2015, 01:38 AM
Lambo, I completely agree.

I cannot say how I have this number (or prove that it is true) but my calculation indicates that at the highest rebate tracks a little over 30% of the pool is the result of 6 players.

Are all 6 players winners at those tracks from what you know?

lamboguy
12-05-2015, 03:45 AM
Lambo, I completely agree.

I cannot say how I have this number (or prove that it is true) but my calculation indicates that at the highest rebate tracks a little over 30% of the pool is the result of 6 players.without their tote advantages, there are plenty of races where their computer models go haywire as well. the maiden turf races and off tracks come to mind. also the races where someone goes in a pool and belts down a favorite to 1-9 throughout the whole wagering sequence. that bet is done strictly to coax a computer model into betting something else. most of those horses are legitimate 1-5's that the computer models make 2-5 or more.

with the large loss of handle lately, i suspect that some of these computer outfits have packed up their bags and went on to greener pastures like European and far east pools and will remain there until they wreck those games like they have done here.

Stillriledup
12-05-2015, 05:24 AM
Bill Benter didnt become Bill Benter by standing at a SAM machine with a big voucher betting the old fashioned way. He's and others like him (on smaller scales of course) are playing a completely different game than most of us. This is why tracks need to give the old fashioned player a way to go head to head against only players who are betting the same way as them.

You're not going to beat Benter or CRW players by standing at the SAM machine, betting verbally w live teller, etc but if the only way a player can get into a pool is to bet the old fashioned way, you wouldn't be getting beat by people who are experts at technology, which is what's happening now.

No reason to not have separate pools on the same race win pool A, win pool B, this way you can say the pool A is the CRW pool and pool B is not, would be amazing case study to see different prices on the same races. People would see that things normally pay less in the CRW pool which would mean it wouldn't take long for most smart bettors to avoid that pool altogether.

no breathalyzer
12-05-2015, 11:51 AM
Bill Benter didnt become Bill Benter by standing at a SAM machine with a big voucher betting the old fashioned way. He's and others like him (on smaller scales of course) are playing a completely different game than most of us. This is why tracks need to give the old fashioned player a way to go head to head against only players who are betting the same way as them.

You're not going to beat Benter or CRW players by standing at the SAM machine, betting verbally w live teller, etc but if the only way a player can get into a pool is to bet the old fashioned way, you wouldn't be getting beat by people who are experts at technology, which is what's happening now.

No reason to not have separate pools on the same race win pool A, win pool B, this way you can say the pool A is the CRW pool and pool B is not, would be amazing case study to see different prices on the same races. People would see that things normally pay less in the CRW pool which would mean it wouldn't take long for most smart bettors to avoid that pool altogether.

T^hen play the same game.. everyone complaining about this. why not just join in.. if its so easy.. do the same thing and work the bankroll up till you are wealthy . Start your own CRW crew.. the more $$ you pump thru im sure u can get bigger rebates :lol:........ Here's my point you still get paid when you pick the winner.. handicap better.. no one in particular but sometimes after reading things you would think no one wins betting horses Ever!

Stillriledup
12-05-2015, 01:50 PM
T^hen play the same game.. everyone complaining about this. why not just join in.. if its so easy.. do the same thing and work the bankroll up till you are wealthy . Start your own CRW crew.. the more $$ you pump thru im sure u can get bigger rebates :lol:........ Here's my point you still get paid when you pick the winner.. handicap better.. no one in particular but sometimes after reading things you would think no one wins betting horses Ever!

I'm of the camp that everyone has the same shot to be a CRW whale, and the system is fair for the most part, its just not feasible for most people who aren't pro bettors to risk that kind of money or pay for someone to get that setup for them. Its easier just to give people the option to bet like everyone else. Even if people had the ability to 'be like Benter' why would they want to if they can get better prices in the non crw pool?

davew
12-05-2015, 04:38 PM
I don't have a problem with canceled wagers. It is about the only tool the bettor has to fight the people who dump large bets in last few seconds driving down the odds. A bet that is going to be canceled on horse either stops those bets or at least lessens them to point where the guy who cancels the bets get something resembling decent odds. Sure the average bettor might lose a bet now then, but is not as much of problem to me as the very late flow of a large amount of cash on a horse I bet, driving down the odds well below profitability. I might add the canceled bet is still pretty rare. The late crushing of the odds by a large bet must happen at least several hundred times more often.

Would you have a problem if you liked 2 horses equally and one was 3/5 and the other 6/1. You bet the 6/1 and the guy who bet massive amounts on the 3/5 cancels 90% of their bet just before the off. Your 6/1 bet becomes a 4/5 and his 3/5 bet becomes a 4/1.

ReplayRandall
12-05-2015, 05:10 PM
Here is the reality of race wagering NOW and the immediate future----you have six options(best to worst):

1. Play online with rebates- can lower the vig to 10% or less

2. Play tournaments- vig can be as low as 10%

3. Play at the track with a rewards card- saves on admission, programs, food, parking, small cash back, etc....

4. Play online/at track, with little or no rebate/rewards

5. Wait for Fixed odds exchanges in US via Betfair...etal, before playing again

6. QUIT

Which option is your present reality? What options are the tracks, (ie-Stronach), forcing upon us or are trying to take away?

Fox
12-06-2015, 12:23 AM
No reason to not have separate pools on the same race win pool A, win pool B, this way you can say the pool A is the CRW pool and pool B is not, would be amazing case study to see different prices on the same races. People would see that things normally pay less in the CRW pool which would mean it wouldn't take long for most smart bettors to avoid that pool altogether.

Yeah......that sounds practical.

thaskalos
12-06-2015, 01:01 AM
Bill Benter didnt become Bill Benter by standing at a SAM machine with a big voucher betting the old fashioned way. He's and others like him (on smaller scales of course) are playing a completely different game than most of us. This is why tracks need to give the old fashioned player a way to go head to head against only players who are betting the same way as them.

You're not going to beat Benter or CRW players by standing at the SAM machine, betting verbally w live teller, etc but if the only way a player can get into a pool is to bet the old fashioned way, you wouldn't be getting beat by people who are experts at technology, which is what's happening now.

No reason to not have separate pools on the same race win pool A, win pool B, this way you can say the pool A is the CRW pool and pool B is not, would be amazing case study to see different prices on the same races. People would see that things normally pay less in the CRW pool which would mean it wouldn't take long for most smart bettors to avoid that pool altogether.

How do you plan to keep the mega-bettors out of pool B?

The mutuel pools are in a perpetual free-fall already, SRU. Do you really think that the tracks would ever consider reducing these pools even further...by splitting them in two groups?

Stillriledup
12-06-2015, 01:09 AM
How do you plan to keep the mega-bettors out of pool B?

The mutuel pools are in a perpetual free-fall already, SRU. Do you really think that that tracks would ever consider reducing these pools even further...by splitting them in two groups?

I'm not trying to keep anyone out of any pool, you just can't use CRW to wager in pool B.

Stillriledup
12-06-2015, 01:11 AM
Yeah......that sounds practical.

The more practical way would to either ban CRW like Oaklawn does, or, make it available to any bettor who wants it.

ReplayRandall
12-06-2015, 01:18 AM
I'm not trying to keep anyone out of any pool, you just can't use CRW to wager in pool B.

Let's just say for some wild reason the tracks implement your suggestion. How fast do you think the game would collapse without that CRW money? How fast do you think the take-out would be raised, after they've already raised it to implement your idea?.......It's an IMPOSSIBILITY, period. Why do you think I posted what the true reality and the options are for the player, back in post-40?....Those are the only real POSSIBILITIES that are left.....Oaklawn is only a temporary trial, their handle will suffer proportionately.

Stillriledup
12-06-2015, 01:29 AM
Let's just say for some wild reason the tracks implement your suggestion. How fast do you think the game would collapse without that CRW money? How fast do you think the take-out would be raised, after they've already raised it to implement your idea?.......It's an IMPOSSIBILITY, period. Why do you think I posted what the true reality and the options are for the player, back in post-40?....Those are the only real POSSIBILITIES that are left.....Oaklawn is only a temporary trial, their handle will suffer proportionately.

Has Oaklawn collapsed?

ReplayRandall
12-06-2015, 01:36 AM
Has Oaklawn collapsed?

The only track that posted handle increases for the last two years was Saratoga, every other track is in a nosedive.....We'll see the same nosedive at Oaklawn, unfortunately.

Stillriledup
12-06-2015, 02:16 AM
The only track that posted handle increases for the last two years was Saratoga, every other track is in a nosedive.....We'll see the same nosedive at Oaklawn, unfortunately.

But the nosedive (as you put it) at Oaklawn is not because of CRW being banned there.

Robert Goren
12-06-2015, 09:42 AM
Would you have a problem if you liked 2 horses equally and one was 3/5 and the other 6/1. You bet the 6/1 and the guy who bet massive amounts on the 3/5 cancels 90% of their bet just before the off. Your 6/1 bet becomes a 4/5 and his 3/5 bet becomes a 4/1. your 6/1 is more likely to become a 4/5 horse because of a massive wager than it is because of canceled bet. probably at least 50 times more likely. Go to 4/5 from 6/1 is pretty rare, but going to 5/2 from 6/1 isn't. I have had it happen to me a lot. It was never because of a canceled wager. I repeat never. If you looking to stop huge odds swings there are better places to look than canceled wagers.

PaceAdvantage
12-07-2015, 04:20 PM
The more practical way would to either ban CRW like Oaklawn does, or, make it available to any bettor who wants it.Define CRW.

I can use a computer to place bets within seconds of the race going off...many many bets in fact...how you gonna stop me? I've written programs to interact with online ADWs to do just this. And was doing it years ago as a matter of fact.

Point is, unless you have some sort of specifically defined version of CRW that you can actually REGULATE (and I don't believe it's possible), what you are suggesting can not be accomplished.

I hear Oaklawn did it? What did they really do? They banned an offshore ADW that catered to these types of players? OK. What about all the others? What about the genius who has his own independent setup working with an outlet that nobody knows about? Or better yet, the guy that has HIS OWN ADW or offshore establishment and uses THAT to CRW...who is going to ever find out and ban him?

biggestal99
12-07-2015, 05:45 PM
2Define CRW.

I can use a computer to place bets within seconds of the race going off...many many bets in fact...how you gonna stop me? I've written programs to interact with online ADWs to do just this. And was doing it years ago as a matter of fact.

Point is, unless you have some sort of specifically defined version of CRW that you can actually REGULATE (and I don't believe it's possible), what you are suggesting can not be accomplished.

I hear Oaklawn did it? What did they really do? They banned an offshore ADW that catered to these types of players? OK. What about all the others? What about the genius who has his own independent setup working with an outlet that nobody knows about? Or better yet, the guy that has HIS OWN ADW or offshore establishment and uses THAT to CRW...who is going to ever find out and ban him?

If at track wanted to stop crw they would just needto cut off betting to all off track bettors at 5 minutes and only allow punched bets at the track after that.

Simple solution but handle at tracks would suffer mightily.

However, That would solve the post time odds drop.

Doubt any track owner wants to make enemies with their best customers

Allan

baconswitchfarm
12-07-2015, 06:21 PM
Define CRW.

I can use a computer to place bets within seconds of the race going off...many many bets in fact...how you gonna stop me? I've written programs to interact with online ADWs to do just this. And was doing it years ago as a matter of fact.

Point is, unless you have some sort of specifically defined version of CRW that you can actually REGULATE (and I don't believe it's possible), what you are suggesting can not be accomplished.

I hear Oaklawn did it? What did they really do? They banned an offshore ADW that catered to these types of players? OK. What about all the others? What about the genius who has his own independent setup working with an outlet that nobody knows about? Or better yet, the guy that has HIS OWN ADW or offshore establishment and uses THAT to CRW...who is going to ever find out and ban him?


Oaklawn cut off crw wagering from the off shore sites. That's all it takes to fix the problem. Crw based in the USA is not the problem. I will explain. When a crw sends a suspicious bet from a Oregon based adw , the state parimutuel steps in and sees if the bet was sent in a timely manner. Thus a third party with no financial interest to intervene on behalf of fairness. If you are a crw playing in st Kitts and you send a batch wager ten seconds after the start , no one cares. That's why you can win at a far greater rate. The adw accepting the bet is also the regualorty agency to investigate . No one watching who is not getting rich on those bets and no watchdog at all.

Stillriledup
12-07-2015, 07:13 PM
Define CRW.

I can use a computer to place bets within seconds of the race going off...many many bets in fact...how you gonna stop me? I've written programs to interact with online ADWs to do just this. And was doing it years ago as a matter of fact.

Point is, unless you have some sort of specifically defined version of CRW that you can actually REGULATE (and I don't believe it's possible), what you are suggesting can not be accomplished.

I hear Oaklawn did it? What did they really do? They banned an offshore ADW that catered to these types of players? OK. What about all the others? What about the genius who has his own independent setup working with an outlet that nobody knows about? Or better yet, the guy that has HIS OWN ADW or offshore establishment and uses THAT to CRW...who is going to ever find out and ban him?

I don't know any of that, you'll have to ask the head guy at Oaklawn how they determine bets they accept aren't being placed by CRW.

Hoofless_Wonder
12-07-2015, 09:46 PM
I don't know any of that, you'll have to ask the head guy at Oaklawn how they determine bets they accept aren't being placed by CRW.

It's my understanding that Oaklawn and Tampa take bets from CRW mechanisms.

What they have not done is offer larger rebates to whales based on handle, with their view that in the long run it will hurt handle.

Don't lump CRW into the same pile as whales or the same pile as large rebate receivers.....

Stillriledup
12-07-2015, 11:36 PM
It's my understanding that Oaklawn and Tampa take bets from CRW mechanisms.

What they have not done is offer larger rebates to whales based on handle, with their view that in the long run it will hurt handle.

Don't lump CRW into the same pile as whales or the same pile as large rebate receivers.....

I was under the impression that Oaklawn doesn't take CRW bets as well as bets from certain places, if what you say is true (and I'm not doubting you) than those places are misguided in their thinking. It's not the rebates that are hurting their ontrack customers, it's CRW because CRW makes the pools efficient and sucks the value out, not the rebates.

Poindexter
12-08-2015, 04:20 PM
Oaklawn cut off crw wagering from the off shore sites. That's all it takes to fix the problem. Crw based in the USA is not the problem. I will explain. When a crw sends a suspicious bet from a Oregon based adw , the state parimutuel steps in and sees if the bet was sent in a timely manner. Thus a third party with no financial interest to intervene on behalf of fairness. If you are a crw playing in st Kitts and you send a batch wager ten seconds after the start , no one cares. That's why you can win at a far greater rate. The adw accepting the bet is also the regualorty agency to investigate . No one watching who is not getting rich on those bets and no watchdog at all.

So if this is the case then obviously past posting from this venue is going on.

baconswitchfarm
12-08-2015, 09:26 PM
So if this is the case then obviously past posting from this venue is going on.


So that is the question , isn't it. Or are the crw players there superior to everyone else on the planet. But not able to hit at the same rate when using a USA based adw.I think you can figure out the answer.