What rules are in place at the Big M for horses that break

[onefast99]

prior to the horses reaching the gate? I witnessed the 1 horse Twin B Sky in the 4th race on Saturday night break about 100 yards from the starting gate and there was no recall. I find this problematic as it leads one to believe the integrity of the game is in question as all horses weren't given a fair chance in the race and the horse that breaks should either be disqualified from any and all purse monies as well as all monies should be refunded that included the 1 horse. Maybe someone can shed some light on this...thank you.

[jtschmidt]

I am not positive but I think the Canandian and American rules may differ as I have never heard of a fair start pole for American racing.

[Ray2000]

The USTA rule book can be found here

http://www.ustrotting.com/pdf/USTARuleBook.pdf

but I don't know how it agrees or differs in NJ, if at all.




The Canadian side has a multi-opinionated discussion going on right now on a race ruled No Contest but the drivers kept on going.


http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/11-24-15/no-contest-woodbine.html

[Stillriledup]

There used to be recalls at M1 decades ago, they got rid of them because they were unfair to all the other horses.

The way it works is fair, every horse has the same chance to pace or trot behind the gate, if you break, that's on you, I haven't bet a Canadian harness race since they adopted they rule that gives winners money back to gamblers who bet on breakers and bad actors.

[onefast99]

There used to be recalls at M1 decades ago, they got rid of them because they were unfair to all the other horses.

The way it works is fair, every horse has the same chance to pace or trot behind the gate, if you break, that's on you, I haven't bet a Canadian harness race since they adopted they rule that gives winners money back to gamblers who bet on breakers and bad actors.I have to tell you SRU this race left a bad taste towards harness racing for me. I have been betting and watching it since the Big M had some of the best trotters and pacers in the world, like Niatross, Cam Fella, Nihilator, Mac Lobell etc. This horse was off stride a long way behind the gate there is no reason whatsoever that the judges should have allowed the horse to continue the recall light never came on. There was a table of about 12 people next to us at Pinks and they all were there for the first time ever enjoying a night at the track and also upset that "you don't get your monies worth" here! I would venture to say that most of them won't comeback!!!

[Stillriledup]

I have to tell you SRU this race left a bad taste towards harness racing for me. I have been betting and watching it since the Big M had some of the best trotters and pacers in the world, like Niatross, Cam Fella, Nihilator, Mac Lobell etc. This horse was off stride a long way behind the gate there is no reason whatsoever that the judges should have allowed the horse to continue the recall light never came on. There was a table of about 12 people next to us at Pinks and they all were there for the first time ever enjoying a night at the track and also upset that "you don't get your monies worth" here! I would venture to say that most of them won't comeback!!!

There are a lot of things that could put a bad taste in your mouth if you let it, I could probably list a dozen things that someone can find distasteful about a gambling game. But, that's the nature of the beast. You know the rules going in. Sometimes you'll be off stride and sometimes the other guys horse will be off stride to your benefit, you can't just be giving money back because the money you give back comes out of the pockets of the winners.

I've made some nice scores on harness races specifically betting against bad actors, 2 year old trotters who couldn't hit a trot in the warmups and horses who were 'off' warming up. Is it fair to me if you get your money back and I end up eating a wager that I made specifically because I hated a certain horse warming up ?

[Sea Biscuit]

There used to be recalls at M1 decades ago, they got rid of them because they were unfair to all the other horses.

The way it works is fair, every horse has the same chance to pace or trot behind the gate, if you break, that's on you, I haven't bet a Canadian harness race since they adopted they rule that gives winners money back to gamblers who bet on breakers and bad actors.

Man SRU you are a tough nut to crack.:bang:

[onefast99]

There are a lot of things that could put a bad taste in your mouth if you let it, I could probably list a dozen things that someone can find distasteful about a gambling game. But, that's the nature of the beast. You know the rules going in. Sometimes you'll be off stride and sometimes the other guys horse will be off stride to your benefit, you can't just be giving money back because the money you give back comes out of the pockets of the winners.

I've made some nice scores on harness races specifically betting against bad actors, 2 year old trotters who couldn't hit a trot in the warmups and horses who were 'off' warming up. Is it fair to me if you get your money back and I end up eating a wager that I made specifically because I hated a certain horse warming up ?You missed the point, the horse had zero chance in the race due to a break far behind the gate. Look at the chart he was 24 lengths back when the gate released. If he broke stride in the race and was given a "fair" chance to compete I am fine with the inherent risks involved with pacers and trotters. I am not fine when a horse breaks at a minimum 50 yards behind the gate and the other horses in the race are given a 24 length head start. That is the BS that keeps people away from this game!

[Stillriledup]

You missed the point, the horse had zero chance in the race due to a break far behind the gate. Look at the chart he was 24 lengths back when the gate released. If he broke stride in the race and was given a "fair" chance to compete I am fine with the inherent risks involved with pacers and trotters. I am not fine when a horse breaks at a minimum 50 yards behind the gate and the other horses in the race are given a 24 length head start. That is the BS that keeps people away from this game!

The horse was given a fair chance to compete, it's not like the guy was in the paddock getting equipment repair and the gate left without him.

If I see a 2 year old filly trotter at 4-5 galloping around in the warmups refusing to trot acting like a little brat, should I bet against that horse or pass the race?

[onefast99]

SRU,
It's not the first time you missed the point and I'm sure it won't be the last. My original question was what rules are in affect when a horse breaks far back from the starting gate. I didn't ask for how horses look during warm ups or anything else you decided to write that made you look like you had zero knowledge of this subject. :eek:

[camluck49]

When i bet a horse that breaks that far back from the start. I run to a machine put my tickect or tickets in. Press cancel and hope i can get them all in.That is why i like betting Canada. You dont have to run to the machine :ThmbUp:

[onefast99]

When i bet a horse that breaks that far back from the start. I run to a machine put my tickect or tickets in. Press cancel and hope i can get them all in.That is why i like betting Canada. You dont have to run to the machine :ThmbUp:Finally an answer, thank you. I never thought about that since the betting window was 200 feet away.

[Stillriledup]

SRU,
It's not the first time you missed the point and I'm sure it won't be the last. My original question was what rules are in affect when a horse breaks far back from the starting gate. I didn't ask for how horses look during warm ups or anything else you decided to write that made you look like you had zero knowledge of this subject. :eek:

In your original post you said not all horses are given a fair chance, I disagree and posted as such. That was the part of your post I was debating. If you want to know specific questions, don't add in your opinions. If horses weren't given a fair start, they get refunded. Everyone has the same chance to get behind the gate, its fair for everyone, if you don't show up behind the gate, that's a you problem. It's very similar to t bred racing when the gate opens and a horse refuses to leave the gate, they don't refund the horse who stood in the gate if that horse caused his own problems.

[onefast99]

In your original post you said not all horses are given a fair chance, I disagree and posted as such. That was the part of your post I was debating. If you want to know specific questions, don't add in your opinions. If horses weren't given a fair start, they get refunded. Everyone has the same chance to get behind the gate, its fair for everyone, if you don't show up behind the gate, that's a you problem. It's very similar to t bred racing when the gate opens and a horse refuses to leave the gate, they don't refund the horse who stood in the gate if that horse caused his own problems.You need to re-read the post. I asked what rules are in affect for when a horse breaks far behind the gate, you deflected and didn't respond but came up with some bs about the 2 year old trotters that you watch warm up before hand and that seems to be the basis of who you bet on or don't. Then you came up with this gem "There used to be recalls at M1 decades ago, they got rid of them because they were unfair to all the other horses." Where is the rule that applies here? That's my original question, do you or don't you know?

[showbet]

16.06 Reasons For Recall.—The starter may sound a recall only for the following reasons:
(a) A horse scores ahead of the gate.
(b) There is interference.
(c) A horse has broken equipment.
(d) There is a malfunction of the starting gate.
(e) A horse falls before the word “go” is given.
(f) A horse comes to the gait out of position.

16.07 No Recall After the Word “Go.”—There shall be no recall after the word “go” has been given and any horse regardless of his position or an accident shall be deemed a starter from the time he entered into the starter’s control unless dismissed by the starter.
(a) Breaking Horse.—The starter shall endeavor to get all horses away in position and on proper gait but no recall shall be had for a breaking horse.

[Sea Biscuit]

16.06 Reasons For Recall.—The starter may sound a recall only for the following reasons:
(a) A horse scores ahead of the gate.
(b) There is interference.
(c) A horse has broken equipment.
(d) There is a malfunction of the starting gate.
(e) A horse falls before the word “go” is given.
(f) A horse comes to the gait out of position.

16.07 No Recall After the Word “Go.”—There shall be no recall after the word “go” has been given and any horse regardless of his position or an accident shall be deemed a starter from the time he entered into the starter’s control unless dismissed by the starter.
(a) Breaking Horse.—The starter shall endeavor to get all horses away in position and on proper gait but no recall shall be had for a breaking horse.

Can't be more clearer than that for Onestop.

Thanks showbet.

[Stillriledup]

You need to re-read the post. I asked what rules are in affect for when a horse breaks far behind the gate, you deflected and didn't respond but came up with some bs about the 2 year old trotters that you watch warm up before hand and that seems to be the basis of who you bet on or don't. Then you came up with this gem "There used to be recalls at M1 decades ago, they got rid of them because they were unfair to all the other horses." Where is the rule that applies here? That's my original question, do you or don't you know?

Your original question talked about some unfairness and some refunds you thought should have been issued. You tossed something in there about integrity for good measure. You asked about a rule but then offered some opinions, I was responding to your opinions. There's no need for the abrasive tone when you don't hear the answer that you're looking for.

[onefast99]

Your original question talked about some unfairness and some refunds you thought should have been issued. You tossed something in there about integrity for good measure. You asked about a rule but then offered some opinions, I was responding to your opinions. There's no need for the abrasive tone when you don't hear the answer that you're looking for.I asked you for the rule from the Big M that you referred to, you also took the time to enlighten me on your handicapping methodology all good but I really wanted to know the rule and showbet posted it, thank you showbet.

[Overcall]

sheeeesh SRU has missed a lot of good races! a couple of breeders crowns etc. if not for stake races, I wouldn't play