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macguy
11-26-2015, 09:40 PM
Interesting article interviewing Mark Casse about his training, how he got to where he was and his opinions on Lasix.

Didn't realize he was an American, just assumed with the big stable in Ontario that he was a Canuck.

Seems the people in the comments section didn't agree with him too much when it comes to Lasix and race day medications.

First Part
https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/mark-casse-key-factors-make-our-training-operation-so-strong

Second Part (Lasix Discussion)
https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/mark-casse-reasons-race-day-lasix-essential-america

Donttellmeshowme
11-26-2015, 11:17 PM
Casse is dead on 100% correct right about Lasix.

cj
11-27-2015, 11:53 AM
Lasix is fine for horses that need it. The problem is many don't. But, if you choose not to use it you put your horse at a disadvantage. Therefore, we are drugging many horses that simply don't need it.

I liked Jerry Brown's proposal...if you use Lasix, you get a five pound penalty. Maybe the number isn't exactly right but it could be worked out over time.

Donttellmeshowme
11-27-2015, 01:36 PM
Lasix is fine for horses that need it. The problem is many don't. But, if you choose not to use it you put your horse at a disadvantage. Therefore, we are drugging many horses that simply don't need it.

I liked Jerry Brown's proposal...if you use Lasix, you get a five pound penalty. Maybe the number isn't exactly right but it could be worked out over time.



Jerry Browns proposal is freakin stupid and hilarious all rolled into one.

All horses bleed at some point in time. They need the lasix. And its not drugging the horse. Carry on......

cj
11-27-2015, 01:42 PM
Jerry Browns proposal is freakin stupid and hilarious all rolled into one.

All horses bleed at some point in time. They need the lasix. And its not drugging the horse. Carry on......

Always great to get a post that states something is stupid without giving any reasons.

What is hilarious is saying lasix isn't drugging horses. It also slows recovery after racing, but that is another story.

Stillriledup
11-27-2015, 01:47 PM
I'm always looking it get 90 and 95 lb jocks and get rid of these 115 people.

But, maybe there's not enough 90 lb people who want to ride.

I care about horses running with no Lasix and then bleeding while racing poorly. If all horses had Lasix, this wouldn't be much of a problem.

cj
11-27-2015, 02:10 PM
I'm always looking it get 90 and 95 lb jocks and get rid of these 115 people.

But, maybe there's not enough 90 lb people who want to ride.

I care about horses running with no Lasix and then bleeding while racing poorly. If all horses had Lasix, this wouldn't be much of a problem.

I ran this though babblefish, but it can't figure out what language it is written in.

Donttellmeshowme
11-27-2015, 02:17 PM
I'm always looking it get 90 and 95 lb jocks and get rid of these 115 people.

But, maybe there's not enough 90 lb people who want to ride.

I care about horses running with no Lasix and then bleeding while racing poorly. If all horses had Lasix, this wouldn't be much of a problem.




99.9% of horses run on Lasix. Its a level playing field as far as lasix goes.

Tom
11-27-2015, 02:52 PM
Horses ran just fine without lasix on the 60's and 70's in NY. Some of the best horses anywhere. Many came to NY and had to run without it, and proved they were NOT so great. And those who did not use it ran more often.

Lasix is an excuse for today's trainers, who are not much compered to those of yesteryear. ( sounds like the Lone Ranger! :D ) Most trainers today are better suited to carrying out groceries at Piggly Wiggly.

The game would be better off with no lasix.
And without the alleged trainers who swear by it.

Stillriledup
11-27-2015, 03:10 PM
I ran this though babblefish, but it can't figure out what language it is written in.

Sorry, typo, the 4th word of the first sentence is 'to' not 'it'

cj
11-27-2015, 03:11 PM
Sorry, typo, the 4th word of the first sentence is 'to' not 'it'

It still doesn't make sense. Who said anything about 90 pound jockeys?

VeryOldMan
11-27-2015, 06:50 PM
Trying to get this thread back on track a little bit - thought that was a very interesting interview. I would love to see more trainers give such detailed explanations of their thinking. Casse gave reasoned answers for his views about Lasix, backing it up with examples from his years of training. He has been very successful and isn't known as a "needle" trainer. I thought he offered a persuasive case for his view. Doesn't mean he is the final word on the subject and clearly there is a range of opinion. But he struck me as someone whose opinion we should at least listen to and try to understand.

cj
11-27-2015, 06:55 PM
Trying to get this thread back on track a little bit - thought that was a very interesting interview. I would love to see more trainers give such detailed explanations of their thinking. Casse gave reasoned answers for his views about Lasix, backing it up with examples from his years of training. He has been very successful and isn't known as a "needle" trainer. I thought he offered a persuasive case for his view. Doesn't mean he is the final word on the subject and clearly there is a range of opinion. But he struck me as someone whose opinion we should at least listen to and try to understand.

The last thing the sport needs is to have horses that can't race because they bleed. Lasix usually works, so fine. I see his point. I just know it gives an edge to those that use it over those that don't.

VeryOldMan
11-27-2015, 07:02 PM
The last thing the sport needs is to have horses that can't race because they bleed. Lasix usually works, so fine. I see his point. I just know it gives an edge to those that use it over those that don't.
And here we are back on track. He gave examples of horses that were bleeders for whom Lasix salvaged their career. And about how prevalent some level of bleeding is.

I agree with your premise - shouldn't the sport be trying to breed out the bleeders?

He disagreed with your "edge" point. You have data to back your view. He has his training background. Makes for a robust discussion/disagreement and I wish this sport had more such informed arguments.

macguy
11-27-2015, 07:10 PM
Anybody have any thoughts on the story he told about the $500k mare he bought in Europe, supposedly never raced on Lasix, worked it here for the first time and blood was gushing out of both nostrils?

Why was it that horse wasn't bleeding in Europe?
Or was it bleeding, and that's why the owners sold it?

chadk66
11-27-2015, 07:36 PM
Casse pretty much echo's what I've been saying about Lasix. If you remove lasix you will basically end the racing industry. You think you have little fields now? LOL They would be running match races right up until the point there is no racing. CJ is right not all horses need it. But the myth it moves horses up forces many to run on it just to satisfy all involved so they are running horses on it that don't need it. I don't know why they got rid of "certifying" bleeders before using Lasix. Back when I trained that's how it was. And some jurisdictions didn't recognize another states certification. For example, some states required the horse to visibly bleed out the nostrils. Some certified via scoping with visible blood in the scope. I had instances where I entered numerous horses on Lasix in jurisdictions that didn't allow what the state I had them certified in to run. So I get to the track and find out they won't let me run on Lasix. Well my horses ran just as good without it as with it. They don't bleed every time if they are a bleeder and don't run on lasix. Of all my lasix horses I had zero bleed visibly from their nostrils. All were examined via scope.

I personally think the environmental conditions have more to do with horses bleeding than anything. But that is just an opinion. In my experience more horses bleed on hot/humid days than any other days. This theory has been supported by numerous vets over the years. They see the same thing.

chadk66
11-27-2015, 07:39 PM
Anybody have any thoughts on the story he told about the $500k mare he bought in Europe, supposedly never raced on Lasix, worked it here for the first time and blood was gushing out of both nostrils?

Why was it that horse wasn't bleeding in Europe?
Or was it bleeding, and that's why the owners sold it?Environment

senortout
11-27-2015, 08:02 PM
Do some remember a few years back(5-8 years maybe?) the pps for Illinois races would have a comment which VERY OFTEN included "bled" and it was natural to look and lo! and behold! the next time out they raced w/Lasix....Do any of you know how these comments could slip into the racing form without an intent to justify the anti-bleeder medication for nearly every horse in Illinois? Because, now that its allowed the "bled" comment is nearly non-existent. I was hoping a trainer or someone from the area might explain this further. Thanks

Spalding No!
11-27-2015, 08:15 PM
I found the logic weak at best:

1) He bought a bad bleeder from France for $500k, implies that illegal drugs were being used to control her bleeding and then concludes that he "has a tough time believing horses don't bleed in other countries." This is a straw man argument. No one suggested that horses don't bleed in other countries. Sure they do. Upwards of 90% of racehorses show evidence of bleeding. However, that does not mean that performance is effected. Only a small percentage of horses that bleed actually have significant issues with performance as a result. In other countries, they simply ban those horses. I would suggest that this protects horseplayers, as they have nothing to go on other than form. Who wants to deal with a horse who's form is confounded by medication?

2) His "biggest concern" is that the age old practice of drawing horses will be fashionable again and that some idiots will attempt to draw horses inhumanely for 3 or 4 days at a stretch. This is a totally different issue. Any moron who would starve a horse for 4 days does not deserve a trainer's license. Maybe we should look into making licensing procedures tougher if this is a real concern.

3) Humans run "straight up and down". Horses bash their organs. If any of this held water, horses would have a lot more physical problems than "bleeding".

4) Rest is not a cure-all. Neither are drugs. He then suggests that a way to get bleeders to a race is to train them lighter. Again, horseplayers now have to worry that their horse isn't as fit as other entrants to race.

5) Does not dispute that lasix is a performance enhancer, but since everyone is doing it, it should be OK.

6) Racing commissions shouldn't be strict with testing because trainers rely on vets to give hundreds of medications and can easily give the wrong drug.

7) Other countries skirt the bleeding issue by simply using other, presumably, illegal drugs.

nearco
11-28-2015, 10:26 AM
Lasix is and always has been about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Casse confirmed that.
You pay $500k for a horse and lasix saves your ass (and bank account).
It's never been about horse welfare, that is just a bunch of BS.

Turn on your TV right now and watch the racing from the UK and Ireland. There are horses going a stamina sapping 3 Miles+ in the mud around Newcastle, Newbury and Fairyhouse. They are doing it without Lasix. Surely if they can do it, you can train a horse to run 6-9f on the dirt without lasix.

- Every horse will bleed to some degree.
- Most can still race. A small minority bleed so bad that they can't compete at all.
- For some the bleeding will affect their performance and make them race at a level below what they would with lasix. But they can still compete. That is just a natural handicap they have. This is why a horse that is G3/listed level horse in Europe can be imported and become a G1 level horse stateside. His performance HAS BEEN ENHANCED. That horse could continue to race in Europe, just not at the higher levels, because he has a natural fault.


Now some will make the case that Lasix creates a level playing field.
But if you are going to use that logic, that why not allow EPO? Some horses produce a higher level of oxygen in the blood. Why not allow a drug that boosts ALL horses level of oxygen in the blood to level the playing level?

Cholly
11-28-2015, 12:09 PM
As for horses who can't race without Lasix, giving them lasix and allowing them to race is one question.

Allowing them to breed is a different question, and the answer to that should be a no-brainer.

cj
11-28-2015, 12:11 PM
As for horses who can't race without Lasix, giving them lasix and allowing them to race is one question.

Allowing them to breed is a different question, and the answer to that should be a no-brainer.

But how do we know who can't race without it anymore?

castaway01
11-28-2015, 12:35 PM
Casse pretty much echo's what I've been saying about Lasix. If you remove lasix you will basically end the racing industry. You think you have little fields now? LOL They would be running match races right up until the point there is no racing. CJ is right not all horses need it. But the myth it moves horses up forces many to run on it just to satisfy all involved so they are running horses on it that don't need it.

Isn't the "myth" that it's used to mask what does move the horse up? Since you trained back in the day, if that's not true in your opinion, then fine, but let's at least get the myth part right.

castaway01
11-28-2015, 12:36 PM
As for horses who can't race without Lasix, giving them lasix and allowing them to race is one question.

Allowing them to breed is a different question, and the answer to that should be a no-brainer.

Aren't we too far down the rabbit hole on that one? Can you just disregard half the breeding stock at the drop of a hat and hold the industry together?

While I agree Lasix is overused, to me it is about 97th on the list of problems facing horse racing anyway.

magwell
11-28-2015, 12:58 PM
Mark told it how it really is, something I've been saying here for years, good for him.....:ThmbUp:

CryingForTheHorses
11-28-2015, 02:42 PM
Lasix is fine for horses that need it. The problem is many don't. But, if you choose not to use it you put your horse at a disadvantage. Therefore, we are drugging many horses that simply don't need it.

I liked Jerry Brown's proposal...if you use Lasix, you get a five pound penalty. Maybe the number isn't exactly right but it could be worked out over time.


I agree with you CJ ,But here is the problem ,Lots of these horses (At least in Florida) are put on Lasix without being scoped ,A trainer can sign a paper for this.I think the biggest reason lots do go on lasix is because,many think they are at a disadvantage to the other horses that do get it, That's why the drug use is rampant..That horse has bute so I better use it because he has a advantage over me.What they need to stop is the bute 24hrs out and the banamine 48 hours out. Lasix does help a lot of horses but the amounts many get dry them up like prunes...Back to Mark ..He is a wonderful hardworking man who treats his help with class,Handles his horses like a wizard and wants nothing more then a good life..

chadk66
11-28-2015, 07:00 PM
Isn't the "myth" that it's used to mask what does move the horse up? Since you trained back in the day, if that's not true in your opinion, then fine, but let's at least get the myth part right.way back when it was believed it masked drugs. no longer an issue today with the insane testing ability they have now. so that argument holds absolutely no water anymore.

cj
11-28-2015, 07:05 PM
way back when it was believed it masked drugs. no longer an issue today with the insane testing ability they have now. so that argument holds absolutely no water anymore.

Right...but that is the myth. The fact it makes horse run faster than they would without it is not a myth.

Donttellmeshowme
11-28-2015, 07:32 PM
I agree with you CJ ,But here is the problem ,Lots of these horses (At least in Florida) are put on Lasix without being scoped ,A trainer can sign a paper for this.I think the biggest reason lots do go on lasix is because,many think they are at a disadvantage to the other horses that do get it, That's why the drug use is rampant..That horse has bute so I better use it because he has a advantage over me.What they need to stop is the bute 24hrs out and the banamine 48 hours out. Lasix does help a lot of horses but the amounts many get dry them up like prunes...Back to Mark ..He is a wonderful hardworking man who treats his help with class,Handles his horses like a wizard and wants nothing more then a good life..




So no bute and banamine either? Why would you eliminate these 2 legal drugs?

Donttellmeshowme
11-28-2015, 07:33 PM
Mark told it how it really is, something I've been saying here for years, good for him.....:ThmbUp:



Yep he told it like it is. Problem is some people will disagree with him yet dont have a clue.

pandy
11-29-2015, 07:36 AM
Lasix is fine for horses that need it. The problem is many don't. But, if you choose not to use it you put your horse at a disadvantage. Therefore, we are drugging many horses that simply don't need it.

I liked Jerry Brown's proposal...if you use Lasix, you get a five pound penalty. Maybe the number isn't exactly right but it could be worked out over time.


That's a good idea. As for many, I would say most horses don't need it.

CryingForTheHorses
11-29-2015, 10:04 AM
So no bute and banamine either? Why would you eliminate these 2 legal drugs?

Lots of horses only get the banamine and bute when they race,Most don't ever get it for training purposes,If they can train and breeze without it,Why need it race day?..Biggest reason its used is because nobody wants to give the other guy a edge...The vets make a killing on these 2 drugs.

Donttellmeshowme
11-29-2015, 10:37 AM
Lots of horses only get the banamine and bute when they race,Most don't ever get it for training purposes,If they can train and breeze without it,Why need it race day?..Biggest reason its used is because nobody wants to give the other guy a edge...The vets make a killing on these 2 drugs.



i agree with that. Bute is aspirin it has no performance enhancing. Banamine is different. If thers any little pain in the horse before race day or race day then that pain is gone competely. Horse feels super good because hes not feeling any pain and it runs a whole in the wind. To me thats a performance enhancer.

theiman
11-29-2015, 11:13 AM
When the BC started in the mid 80's there was no Lasix in NY.
When Secretariat ran and won the TC in 1973 he didnt have lasix

So what happened to the equines that race, that an entire breed(ok maybe 95%), both T-Bred and Standard Breds use it.

Someone explain what happened that it is a "must" use. I dont want to know how it helps. I want to know what happened that it "had" to be used.

Also, just curious, does anyone know where(state) lasix was allowed first as a race day medication and what were the reasons given back then.

chadk66
11-29-2015, 05:23 PM
Right...but that is the myth. The fact it makes horse run faster than they would without it is not a myth.I know of no horse that runs faster on Lasix than without it unless he is actually bleeding without it. I told you of numerous circumstances where I ran horses without it in places where I wasn't allowed to. And those horses performed no better. But we're all entitled to our opinion. There is actually no way to prove it without a doubt anyway. So for both sides it's simply speculation.

chadk66
11-29-2015, 05:27 PM
When the BC started in the mid 80's there was no Lasix in NY.
When Secretariat ran and won the TC in 1973 he didnt have lasix

So what happened to the equines that race, that an entire breed(ok maybe 95%), both T-Bred and Standard Breds use it.

Someone explain what happened that it is a "must" use. I dont want to know how it helps. I want to know what happened that it "had" to be used.

Also, just curious, does anyone know where(state) lasix was allowed first as a race day medication and what were the reasons given back then.very good questions. My personal opinion on bleeding is this. First-trainers don't train like they used to years ago. Second-I think the environment, including feed, etc. , is the biggest contributor to increased bleeding. The other thing most forget is that in 1973 there were other drugs being used to prevent bleeding that weren't being detected by the poor testing methods then. There were a lot of things being used that weren't being picked up in tests. So it's really hard to compare forty years ago to today.

lamboguy
11-29-2015, 05:34 PM
i think lasix does help horses run faster. first of all it does NOT stop bleeding. it helps eliminate fluids and salt from the lungs and kidney's.

therefore i think it only makes sense that a horse should run faster while being administered lasix.

i don't have the training experience like some do on this site, but i have been around a pretty large training operation for a very long time.

Spalding No!
11-29-2015, 05:59 PM
Aside from its effects on blood pressure which presumably mitigates (but does not stop) EIPH, lasix has been shown to cause a decrease in body weight of ~30 lbs, an increase blood pH (i.e., has an alkalinizing effect), and stimulates bronchodilation. It has also been demonstrated that there is an association between lasix use and superior racing performance.

cj
11-29-2015, 06:05 PM
Aside from its effects on blood pressure which presumably mitigates (but does not stop) EIPH, lasix has been shown to cause a decrease in body weight of ~30 lbs, an increase blood pH (i.e., has an alkalinizing effect), and stimulates bronchodilation. It has also been demonstrated that there is an association between lasix use and superior racing performance.

Of course it does, for all the reasons you state. Chad?

chadk66
11-30-2015, 05:10 PM
Of course it does, for all the reasons you state. Chad?I'd love to see that demonstration. Lasix can also be detrimental to performance by dehydrating the muscle tissue in a horse which therefore can hinder performance. Lasix cannot make a horse run faster than his god given ability. And there is absolutely no way to prove Lasix helps or hinders horses. It's just not scientifically provable. You cannot run a horse simultaneously with itself lol. You can never put a horse in an identical situation with identical parameters to prove it. It just can't happen. So all that's left is speculation.

cj
11-30-2015, 05:24 PM
I'd love to see that demonstration. Lasix can also be detrimental to performance by dehydrating the muscle tissue in a horse which therefore can hinder performance. Lasix cannot make a horse run faster than his god given ability. And there is absolutely no way to prove Lasix helps or hinders horses. It's just not scientifically provable. You cannot run a horse simultaneously with itself lol. You can never put a horse in an identical situation with identical parameters to prove it. It just can't happen. So all that's left is speculation.

It has been done, it isn't speculation.

I'm sure it is often a detriment to horses, that is why 99% of them or on it for no real reason (other to to level the playing field).

chadk66
11-30-2015, 07:17 PM
show me this undesputable evidence. " It has also been demonstrated that there is an association between lasix use and superior racing performance."

classhandicapper
11-30-2015, 07:27 PM
show me this undesputable evidence. " It has also been demonstrated that there is an association between lasix use and superior racing performance."

CJ and I have studied this independently. I believe we even discussed it a little years ago.

It's not indisputable evidence, but it's enough for me to be willing to let the moths out my wallet to make some of the largest wagers I make these days. CJ knows me well enough to know that must be pretty good evidence. :lol:

(though I'm hoping he does not elaborate too much about that evidence because it still has betting value in some cases)

chadk66
11-30-2015, 07:49 PM
CJ and I have studied this independently. I believe we even discussed it a little years ago.

It's not indisputable evidence, but it's enough for me to be willing to let the moths out my wallet to make some of the largest wagers I make these days. CJ knows me well enough to know that must be pretty good evidence. :lol:

(though I'm hoping he does not elaborate too much about that evidence because it still has betting value in some cases)I can understand that. But like I said, this is all opinion at this point. And there is honestly no way to scientifically prove this. If lasix was such a performance enhancer every pro athlete would be getting prescriptions for it and using it. especially runners, motocrosss racers etc. That's not happening.

cj
11-30-2015, 07:54 PM
I can understand that. But like I said, this is all opinion at this point. And there is honestly no way to scientifically prove this. If lasix was such a performance enhancer every pro athlete would be getting prescriptions for it and using it. especially runners, motocrosss racers etc. That's not happening.


Lol...it is banned for humans in sports.

chadk66
11-30-2015, 08:04 PM
Lol...it is banned for humans in sports.there are lots of things banned that people use lol.

chadk66
11-30-2015, 08:13 PM
I've been involved with motocross racing since 1981. Aside from the years I trained horses. Two of my best friends raced professionally. There is little to no testing in motocross. They test some to start the season. Do a couple randoms during the year. It's trivial at best. If Lasix was an enhancer, you can bet they'd be using it. Especially considering if they random it's in the morning a few hours before a race. Take lasix a short time before a race and you have little to no chance to ever get caught.

cj
11-30-2015, 11:30 PM
I've been involved with motocross racing since 1981. Aside from the years I trained horses. Two of my best friends raced professionally. There is little to no testing in motocross. They test some to start the season. Do a couple randoms during the year. It's trivial at best. If Lasix was an enhancer, you can bet they'd be using it. Especially considering if they random it's in the morning a few hours before a race. Take lasix a short time before a race and you have little to no chance to ever get caught.

I thought we were talking about humans in sports.

no breathalyzer
12-01-2015, 12:29 AM
give lasix to a sound horse with speed ... and it jumps out the screen.. how can people dispute this . its ABC of horse racing.. don't be silly stats don't lie

magwell
12-01-2015, 10:22 AM
I thought we were talking about humans in sports.So you don't think football players aren't hyped up on energy drinks ? Try given Red Bull and Monster etc. (even coffee) to race horses and your down the road.........;)

chadk66
12-01-2015, 07:42 PM
I thought we were talking about humans in sports.well many people don't think Motocross racers can be human by how physically demanding the sport is. So I'll certainly give you that man:ThmbUp:

cj
12-01-2015, 08:07 PM
well many people don't think Motocross racers can be human by how physically demanding the sport is. So I'll certainly give you that man:ThmbUp:

I was just joking. I have no doubt it it very tough.

cj
12-02-2015, 09:37 AM
Another view:

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/oped-lasix-why-the-effinex-team-just-said-yes/

magwell
12-02-2015, 10:35 AM
Another view:

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/oped-lasix-why-the-effinex-team-just-said-yes/OK you made your point, but that's his opinion and most other vets and trainers believe it helps horses from bleeding as do I.........;)

cj
12-02-2015, 10:38 AM
OK you made your point, but that's his opinion and most other vets and trainers believe it helps horses from bleeding as do I.........;)


As with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle. I've said I believe it helps with bleeding.

nearco
12-02-2015, 10:54 AM
Of course it helps with bleeding. That much is generally accepted. I don't believe that is being debated.
The issue is do horses NEED TO BE helped with bleeding? The rest of the world thinks they don't and gets along just fine without Lasix. Yes, if you have a bad bleeder in one of those countries, then you are screwed. But the number of horses that bleed so badly that they can't race at all is small.

Lasix is NOT about helping horses and horse welfare. That is a smokescreen.
It is about protecting people's bank accounts. If you fork out $20k on a yearling and put six months or a year of training fees into and then find out he either can't race or won't race at the top level, then lasix is your insurance policy against that.

Redboard
12-02-2015, 11:10 AM
If it were really about the health of the horse, then why does the current t-bred have fewer lifetime starts than they did before Lasix, and why does it take longer for the horse to recover between starts. Lasix did not help the customer who likes full fields as some claimed that it was going to.

cj
12-02-2015, 11:21 AM
I'll leave it at this...based on a 12 year database and the data within, Effinex would have been no better than 5th in the Clark if he raced without Lasix, a G1 race he won. This of course assumes all the other horses still were injected with it.

chadk66
12-02-2015, 04:57 PM
If it were really about the health of the horse, then why does the current t-bred have fewer lifetime starts than they did before Lasix, and why does it take longer for the horse to recover between starts. Lasix did not help the customer who likes full fields as some claimed that it was going to.very easy to explain. training/owning philosophies have changed drastically in the past 20-30 years. has nothing to do with Lasix. I ran many lasix horses every 14 days for a very long time. Had zero issues or complications. Look this horse up and see, it's one example. She rarely missed the board. "Hula Song"

chadk66
12-02-2015, 05:03 PM
Of course it helps with bleeding. That much is generally accepted. I don't believe that is being debated.
The issue is do horses NEED TO BE helped with bleeding? The rest of the world thinks they don't and gets along just fine without Lasix. Yes, if you have a bad bleeder in one of those countries, then you are screwed. But the number of horses that bleed so badly that they can't race at all is small.

Lasix is NOT about helping horses and horse welfare. That is a smokescreen.
It is about protecting people's bank accounts. If you fork out $20k on a yearling and put six months or a year of training fees into and then find out he either can't race or won't race at the top level, then lasix is your insurance policy against that.Lasix is NOT about helping horses and horse welfare. That is a smokescreen.-It is and it isn't in my opinion. If there wasn't any lasix, those owners would still run those horses to their grave trying to make money with them. If they bleed every other race then so be it. That's a hell of a lot worse on a horse than lasix ever could be. Humans take lasix all the time without issues. And on a regular basis. Horses get it on race day. An occasional horse may work out with it but it's pretty rare. If not for lasix I think most would be given other stuff that would be very harmful in the long run. But bottom line is this. People pay big money for these horses. They will run them for a very long time if they are bleeding, trying to bleed out every dollar out of them. Bleeding is far worse on a horse than lasix could ever be.