Cancel big bet at Del Mar sparks investigation

[Kash$]

A large wager that was canceled just minutes before the first race on Saturday at Del Mar prompted an investigation by officials from the racetrack, the California Horse Racing Board, and TVG, through which the wager was placed and then canceled.

The subject of the bet was Tale of a Champion, a former graded stakes winner who was returning from a layoff of more than two years in a $40,000 claiming race. He was 3-5 in the early betting, was 2-1 just minutes before first post, but so much money came out of the win pool on him as the horses arrived at the gate that his odds jumped to 10-1 at the off. He finished last.

TVG reported to the CHRB that a customer made five $1,000 win bets on Tale of a Champion just after 7 a.m. on Saturday. According to the report provided by the racing board via TVG, “wagers of that size are not unusual for this customer.”

The customer canceled all five bets at 12:28 p.m., two minutes before post, and, according to TVG, did not make any other bets on the race.

The report said the customer “occasionally cancels wagers, but not disproportionately when comparing to his overall activity.”

[theiman]

Can you link a source to your post, or is it your own investigation?

[Rise Over Run]

On Paulick website:
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/del-mar-mysterious-last-minute-canceled-bet-prompts-investigation/

[RunDustyRun]

noticed this at the time and as I had a pick 5 ticket, I was somewhat alarmed that I had somehow left that horse off my ticket when he was 3/5 early...as I saw him go to 10/1 at post, I figured it was a whale attempting to get pick 5 player to put him on their ticket as the expense of other horses in the sequence

[ronsmac]

Guy gets up at the crack of dawn to bet 5 grand on a horse who hasn't run in two years. That alone raises all kinds of red flags. Then he cancels the wager two minutes to post? They'll probably end up saying he just changed his mind or he made a mistake or something. That's hard to believe. This was going on with an xpressbet account earlier in the year. I can't wait to hear the results of this investigation.

[Kash$]

Inspector Gadget as always is on it

[Stillriledup]

Like the thread in the other section said 'del mar gets it'

[dilanesp]

Like the thread in the other section said 'del mar gets it'

The CHRB is investigating, What, exactly, has either track management or racing officials done wrong in this story?

I mean, if you are going to say they shouldn't accept cancellations of big tickets right before post time, I agree with that, but that's beyond the scope of this controversy.

[Stillriledup]

The CHRB is investigating, What, exactly, has either track management or racing officials done wrong in this story?

I mean, if you are going to say they shouldn't accept cancellations of big tickets right before post time, I agree with that, but that's beyond the scope of this controversy.

I'm jumping the gun and assuming nothing will happen to this 'customer'. Unless you think this bettor gets banned from the track or banned from being able to have an adw account. The tvg person who cancelled the bet also could have just stalled and said let me check with my mgr and put the guy on hold for 2 mins, you know, have some integrity for a change.

[dilanesp]

I'm jumping the gun and assuming nothing will happen to this 'customer'. Unless you think this bettor gets banned from the track or banned from being able to have an adw account. The tvg person who cancelled the bet also could have just stalled and said let me check with my mgr and put the guy on hold for 2 mins, you know, have some integrity for a change.

I agree that unless there's something we don't know that exonerates the customer, that this is grounds for a serious sanction. But they have to investigate before they punish, so you are jumping the gun. Let's wait until nothing gets done about this before implying that the track or the state got it wrong.

[Stillriledup]

I agree that unless there's something we don't know that exonerates the customer, that this is grounds for a serious sanction. But they have to investigate before they punish, so you are jumping the gun. Let's wait until nothing gets done about this before implying that the track or the state got it wrong.

But doesn't nothing ever get done? Has anyone, anywhere at anytime ever sanctioned a bettor for cancelling a ticket? I don't remember one bettor ever being punished for this, so it's past history why I just figure nothing will get done.

[nijinski]

There was a Vet voided claim in the the same race on the co favorite who came in next to last place . No consolation for the bettors just the potential buyers . Tough one for chalk players .

[nijinski]

I'm jumping the gun and assuming nothing will happen to this 'customer'. Unless you think this bettor gets banned from the track or banned from being able to have an adw account. The tvg person who cancelled the bet also could have just stalled and said let me check with my mgr and put the guy on hold for 2 mins, you know, have some integrity for a change.
Maybe he just didn't like what he saw in the warmup or at least he can say something like this . How do you prove he had other intentions ?

[SG4]

From the TVG website, under FAQ's - this is obviously BS since there were 5 different $1000 wagers, which according to this should not be allowed to be cancelled, especially in such a dubious situation.

Can I cancel my wager? customers may cancel up to 20 wagers a day and 200 wagers per month. The total amount per wager cannot exceed $500, $5,000 per day or $15,000 per month.

[dilanesp]

From the TVG website, under FAQ's - this is obviously BS since I believe I had read the wagers were done as 5 different $1000 wagers, which according to this should not be allowed to be cancelled, especially in such a dubious situation.

Can I cancel my wager? customers may cancel up to 20 wagers a day and 200 wagers per month. The total amount per wager cannot exceed $500, $5,000 per day or $15,000 per month.

One of the possibilities here is that TVG violated their rules (and even their contract with Del Mar) and canceled a wager that should not have been canceled. This is why there needs to be an investigation.

[Stillriledup]

Maybe he just didn't like what he saw in the warmup or at least he can say something like this . How do you prove he had other intentions ?

If he's the type that watches warmups and THEN decides, why not wait till you see the warmup?

[thaskalos]

One of the possibilities here is that TVG violated their rules (and even their contract with Del Mar) and canceled a wager that should not have been canceled. This is why there needs to be an investigation.
"Rules" are like spider webs. They catch the fly...but they are laughed at by the elephant.

[nijinski]

If he's the type that watches warmups and THEN decides, why not wait till you see the warmup?
Just sayin they can investigate him but can they prove his intentions .

[thaskalos]

Just sayin they can investigate him but can they prove his intentions .
TVG is who should be investigated...not the guy who did the betting. TVG has rules in place...and THEY are the ones who broke their own rules...to accommodate this big bettor. All the guy did was cancel a few big bets...something that can be readily explained. But how will TVG explain the fact that they broke the cancellation rules that they THEMSELVES had instituted?

[TJDave]

But how will TVG explain the fact that they broke the cancellation rules that they THEMSELVES had instituted?

That's not how I read it. What if you only bet in 1k increments?

[nijinski]

TVG is who should be investigated...not the guy who did the betting. TVG has rules in place...and THEY are the ones who broke their own rules...to accommodate this big bettor. All the guy did was cancel a few big bets...something that can be readily explained. But how will TVG explain the fact that they broke the cancellation rules that they THEMSELVES had instituted?

That's a problem then , was not aware there was a rule broken since I've only cancelled and/or changed small bets close to post time while wagering was still open .

[Stillriledup]

Just sayin they can investigate him but can they prove his intentions .



His intentions don't matter to me because the end result is exactly the same whether he knowingly tried to manipulate or not.

Now, I will be a little more willing to chalk this up to a 'don't let it happen again' moment if this pattern of large wagers and late cancels isn't a habit that this guy has gotten himself into. Tvg has all his records, they could easily see if he has ever done anything remotely similar, and if he has, he needs his account cancelled and banned from other ADWs as well as banned from visiting live tracks, I have no patience for this kind of nonsense.

[Track Phantom]

There was also a big place bet on this horse (I believe $2,000) along with the $5,000 wagered to win. I noticed it right away and felt it was tote manipulation until I saw the place bet. I thought, why would they bet place, as well, if they were going to try to manipulate the tote since people rarely notice that pool.

No one makes a $5,000 win wager on a horse coming off a two-year break and cancels two minutes to post. If you're making that size of a wager on a horse like this, you know he is ready to roll and nothing you see in the post parade would change your mind.

I think it was a wager made to possibly get interest in someone claiming this big class dropper. I'd be curious if the bettor had ties to the horse in any way.

[no breathalyzer]

I know when i used TVG. you had to call to cancel large bets like this over the phone and they wanted to know why.

[Stillriledup]

There was also a big place bet on this horse (I believe $2,000) along with the $5,000 wagered to win. I noticed it right away and felt it was tote manipulation until I saw the place bet. I thought, why would they bet place, as well, if they were going to try to manipulate the tote since people rarely notice that pool.

No one makes a $5,000 win wager on a horse coming off a two-year break and cancels two minutes to post. If you're making that size of a wager on a horse like this, you know he is ready to roll and nothing you see in the post parade would change your mind.

I think it was a wager made to possibly get interest in someone claiming this big class dropper. I'd be curious if the bettor had ties to the horse in any way.

It's also screwing with California's biggest pool, the pick 5. Race 1 is the only race you can manipulate the pick 5 with a fake-out win bet.

If his intentions were to spark interest in that runner amongst pick 5 fans, i would love to see his pick 5 wagers (if applicable) and if this cancelled runner was part of his pick 5s.

Also would love to know if his cancels tend to be on race 1.

Also, the winning pick 5 was a massive signer, would love to see the names on those WG2s on this particular pick 5.

Lots to investigate.

[Track Phantom]

It's also screwing with California's biggest pool, the pick 5. Race 1 is the only race you can manipulate the pick 5 with a fake-out win bet.

If his intentions were to spark interest in that runner amongst pick 5 fans, i would love to see his pick 5 wagers (if applicable) and if this cancelled runner was part of his pick 5s.

Also would love to know if his cancels tend to be on race 1.

Also, the winning pick 5 was a massive signer, would love to see the names on those WG2s on this particular pick 5.

Lots to investigate.

You'll never know any of that...."Nothing to see here...move on"

[Stillriledup]

You'll never know any of that...."Nothing to see here...move on"

The people doing the investigating have this info or could easily get it, I'm not sure what you mean.

[no breathalyzer]

The people doing the investigating have this info or could easily get it, I'm not sure what you mean.

he means he expects you and me will not hear an explanation or and very possible '' there was no wrong doing in this matter'' if history repeats itself..

[Stillriledup]

he means he expects you are me will not hear an explanation or and very possible '' there was no wrong doing in this matter'' if history repeats itself..

Aah, got it, thx NB

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I am not sure what the players intentions were, but i doubt anything will happen to him, and rightfully so. Big deal, he placed a $5k wager on the horse and decided to cancel. Maybe he had second thoughts and decided to cancel. Everyone had the info on this horse and if you thought the horse wasnt live, then dont bet him. It seems this guy was a big bettor, so his $5k might be compared to say a $500 wager for some people. Big enough to make you think twice. I have cancelled many sizable bets, with only one time being screwed at Yonkers. Didnt like the warm up on the horse, had a $50 ticket on him, and the clerk wouldnt cancel until they took down my driver license number. Needless to say the the race went off, he broke, and I lost because they didnt cancel. This was 6 years ago when I swore off the track.

[Stillriledup]

I am not sure what the players intentions were, but i doubt anything will happen to him, and rightfully so. Big deal, he placed a $5k wager on the horse and decided to cancel. Maybe he had second thoughts and decided to cancel. Everyone had the info on this horse and if you thought the horse wasnt live, then dont bet him. It seems this guy was a big bettor, so his $5k might be compared to say a $500 wager for some people. Big enough to make you think twice. I have cancelled many sizable bets, with only one time being screwed at Yonkers. Didnt like the warm up on the horse, had a $50 ticket on him, and the clerk wouldnt cancel until they took down my driver license number. Needless to say the the race went off, he broke, and I lost because they didnt cancel. This was 6 years ago when I swore off the track.

If a bettor makes a mistake and wants his money back, I have no problem IF this is not a habitual pattern, it's only 'rightfully so' if this player had no history of manipulation.

[no breathalyzer]

I am not sure what the players intentions were, but i doubt anything will happen to him, and rightfully so. Big deal, he placed a $5k wager on the horse and decided to cancel. Maybe he had second thoughts and decided to cancel. Everyone had the info on this horse and if you thought the horse wasnt live, then dont bet him. It seems this guy was a big bettor, so his $5k might be compared to say a $500 wager for some people. Big enough to make you think twice. I have cancelled many sizable bets, with only one time being screwed at Yonkers. Didnt like the warm up on the horse, had a $50 ticket on him, and the clerk wouldnt cancel until they took down my driver license number. Needless to say the the race went off, he broke, and I lost because they didnt cancel. This was 6 years ago when I swore off the track.


wow

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I understand manipulation, but still even if he had connections to the horse, what would he gain?

As I recall the horse was dropping from graded stakes or some stakes into a claimer and hadnt run in a long time. This raises flags for me as a bettor, but im sure trainers know alot more than I do. Even if the horse was live on the board, it still smells bad and I wouldnt think too many people would claim the horse.

Was he ever claimed? Most times you have to have claim tickets in by a certain time.

[Donttellmeshowme]

Yall are making a big old to do about nothing. Too many paranoid people on this subject.

[trifecta]

I understand manipulation, but still even if he had connections to the horse, what would he gain?

As I recall the horse was dropping from graded stakes or some stakes into a claimer and hadnt run in a long time. This raises flags for me as a bettor, but im sure trainers know alot more than I do. Even if the horse was live on the board, it still smells bad and I wouldnt think too many people would claim the horse.

Was he ever claimed? Most times you have to have claim tickets in by a certain time.

He wasn't claimed.

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=DMR&raceDate=11/14/2015&cy=USA&rn=1

[Stillriledup]

Yall are making a big old to do about nothing. Too many paranoid people on this subject.

It's got nothing to do with paranoia, paranoia would suggest there's some underlying motive, most of just care that money that wasnt ever intended to stay in the pool was sitting there till late in the game. Some of the wagers were specifically made to 'bet against' this terrible underlay, this is a sore subject with me, someone who can afford to make 5k win bets should be smart enough to not be placing wagers hours in advance and then wait till so late to cancel.

When you are a very large bettor, you have to know these things.

[SG4]

Do you think this sort of pool manipulation leads to more money being bet on this horse or less? Are more people likely to look up & see an unexpected horse taking money & therefore think they need to get in on this "hot" money, or will less people bet thinking what a ridiculous underlay. All I know is if I could take 5k out of the win pool at the last second on horses I were betting on, I'd be quite psyched about my advantage.

[Stillriledup]

So I guess nothing happened to our 'big bettor friend' just an honest mistake that took hours to rectify?

[no breathalyzer]

no one really truly gives a shit that's why until you bumped this thread no one even remembered about it ..

[cj]

no one really truly gives a shit that's why until you bumped this thread no one even remembered about it ..

You know, I actually don't think this is true.

I think there are plenty of good people in racing that care. The problem is it is a tough business to be in right now. Betting is stagnant at best and the future doesn't look bright. Two things racing can't afford are negative publicity and ticking off a big bettor or a group of them. It is a dilemma. Doing the right thing could have positive implications in the future, but struggling businesses are worried about now, not the future.

I don't know what the answer is. I think being transparent is always best, but it is almost never done is in this game.

[Stillriledup]

no one really truly gives a shit that's why until you bumped this thread no one even remembered about it ..

No one remembered because the tracks do a fantastic job of covering things up, is that what you want in thus game, lack of transparency?

[therussmeister]

No one remembered because the tracks do a fantastic job of covering things up, is that what you want in thus game, lack of transparency?
I have no problem with lack of transparency as long as I don't know it.

[burnsy]

They will never know who bet on the winner :4: Downtown C.T., shipping in, going wire to wire at 7.5 to 1. Someone actually thinks this happens everyday.....at Del Mar? How many horses go from 3-5 to 10-1....not only is he in the rear, so is the first, second and third choice. I can see why they are interested. People are paranoid? Yeah, no one never manipulates nothing....that's my story and I'm sticking to it........... :lol: