Lakers; Magic was right

[ponyplayer]

They don't want it enough...History is against them winning out, so it looks pretty dismal. :p

[Valuist]

I love it. They may have 4 Hall of Fame players but Payton and Malone are anything but HOFers now. Its still about the TEAM.

[Wiley]

Exactly right. Team ball beats individual play in every case and the Lakers are the poorest example of a team since the 77 Sixers and this series is somewhat reminiscent. Walton's Blazer's team beat the individual play of the Sixers ala Doc, Free, Collins, Dawkins, McGinnis and Bryant (Kobe's dad). Funny thing, Doc was the only one playing for superstar loaded Sixers and poor Shaq is the only one playing on the Lakers. Pistons stingy selfless helping defense and efficient pick and roll, screen and motion offense wears the old timers down on the Lakers. Closeout in a blowout tomorrow night. Funny that Walton's son Luke is playing for the Lakers as well - he should be on the Pistons.

[SAL]

I'm happy for Larry Brown. His teams typically exhibit unselfish play and hustle. I'm rooting for him to take down his first NBA championship.

[Valuist]

Wiley--

I remember that Sixers team. If the game was played with 5 basketballs instead of 1, nobody would've beaten them.

[sq764]

I think Magic has it wrong.. If you watched the whole season, the Lakers were just not one of the best teams in the league. They got real hot at the right time and mowed through teams.

I don't think they took Detroit for granted, I just think they are an inferior basketball team.. period.. And they are getting their asses handed to them.. Take away the Kobe 3 pointer at the buzzer and its all over, swept.

[Bubbles]

The old saying rings loud and clear:

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.

The Lakers are getting 50+ combined points per game out of Shaq and Kobe, but are getting their faces torn off. If the rest of the team started clicking, maybe they would have made this a competitive series.

[freeneasy]

after the lakes lost thinking iam going to get at least 12-1 on the lakers to win the championship down 1-3 and trying to do something thats never been accomplished. so i call the offshore and said hey man whats the price you giv'n on the lakers to win the ring? they said they were giving 4-1. i go 4-1!!!!! you got to be kidding. lakers down 3-1 and trying to do something in basketball history thats never been done before with one game and possibly the deciding game still left to be played in detroit and thats that best price you guys can come up with on the lakers to still win the championship in the situation their up against? i said man thats one hell of a short price your giv'n on the lakers there bosco. i thought oh, maybe at 15-1 i'd take a couple of hundred but 4-1 thats not even tempting. oh dont worry, the lakers are going to win, and win it all

[sq764]

win it all? haha.. They better get Magic and Kareen to come out of retirement

[dav4463]

Could not believe Phil Jackson had the nerve to complain that the Lakers can't get any calls !!! From the same man whose teams got ALL THE CALLS for the past 10 years !! What a whiner ! Funny how the losers always complain about officiating. The Pistons are taking the ball to the basket, that's why they are shooting more free throws. The Lakers, except Shaq, are jacking up fadeaway shots from 20+ feet....It's not over yet though, I just hope the Pistons can put it away without having to go back to LA. You know Phil's comments will influence the officials to take a close look and give the Lakers the benefit in a close call. I just hope LA doesn't start getting all the calls and find a way to win this thing. If they come back from a 3-1 deficit to win, we won't be able to stand the Kobe lovefest on ABC television !

[GameTheory]

Phil Jackson has complained about the calls at some point in every playoff series he's ever been in. It's his standard M.O.

[sq764]

I wish basketball would have a lockout too.. That would leave the only 2 sports I care to watch, football and baseball..

(Actually the NFL has gotten very boring.. Give me MLB and college football)

[chickenhead]

give me baseball, boxing, and horseracing....I'm a throw back.

As for the Lakers, they didn't watch the Trailblazers over the last few years I guess, a team full of stars doesn't work very well. Especially with no bench.

It will be very nice to see Larry Brown win a well deserved championship.

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by sq764
win it all? haha.. They better get Magic and Kareen to come out of retirement

yeah the lakers have been forced to do nearly all their shooting from outside as detroit's been doing a great job hacking the lakers to pieces on the defense. check the foul stats. i cant remember the last time ive seen such lobsided stats favoring one team, i mean 6, 7 minutes into the 1st quarter and the lakers are out of fouls, c'mon. i cant remember what the ratio was but it seemed like it was at least 4-1 against the lakers.
theyve been doing a great job on kobe thats for sure and the key to that will be to get the ball into shack and let him take 100 shots if he has to as larry brown has conceded to the fact that it would probably be better to stop kobe and let shack get his points then to stop shack and let the rest of the team run wild, and at the same time knowing that if he stops shack then all hes going to do is to stop shack from getting 30 or more points and hold him down to 18-20 points while the rest of the team is being given the opportunity to open up and take up the slack of having shack being held to 20 points. so let shack go.
larry brown was wise enough to see that hey you gotta cut the rope somewhere and he cut the rope with shack and decided to concentrate on shutting kobe down and hopes that that will put the rest of the team off balance and i have never seen the lakers, that is when they can field a full team, look so off balance.
but one thing is for sure. you cant just shut kobe down and expect to get away with just your defense. you have to score and detroit has added the one extra demention that has been giving them that extra opportunity to put those extra point on the board and thats been with their offensive rebounding. shut kobe down, give shack his points, and play hard for the offensive rebound.
but still like larry bird said after the lakers annililated the celtics by like 25-40 points in the 1st game of the championships, " i still believe its going to be a celtics championship" and it was.
so if'n anybody wants to give me that 15-1 iam looking for on a lakers championship then i'll be glad to put a hundred dollars where my mouth is. i mean the books are only giving 4-1 cause their afraid of the truth with the truth being they know lakers aint out of this by a longshot espeacially against detroit.:D

[GameTheory]

If they are not a longshot, then why do you need 15-1? It is the Pistons series to lose, and I don't think they are gonna. The Lakers don't even like each other, they'll be glad to have it over with....

[ranchwest]

As a McNeese State alumnus, I'm enjoying the success of the team Joe Dumars put together. Go Pistons!

[Wiley]

freeneasy

The foul disparity comes down to how you play defense - moving your feet and sliding with the offensive player (Pistons) or getting beat off the dribble and forced to slap and hack with your hands (Lakers). This series is not that difficult to figure out. The old guys Malone (even if not hurt), Payton and Shaq for that matter cannot stay with the young athletic Pistons - Billups, Hamilton, Prince and Wallaces and the backup Lakers aren't talented enough. Billups has always been the key to the Pistons and no one on the Lakers can stop him - Kobe tries and gets beat then slaps or bodies for a foul. The refs also give the breaks to the guys that are hustling to the ball as opposed to reaching - offensive rebounding difference.
The money to be made here was to play the Pistons at 5-1 before the series started. 4-1 now that the Lakers will win it is a joke. Shaq the only guy playing for LA tends to play less inspired after only a one day rest - reference game 3 so look for Kobe to put up his futile bombs over the long arms of Prince tonight. Pistons will roll.

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by GameTheory
If they are not a longshot, then why do you need 15-1? It is the Pistons series to lose, and I don't think they are gonna. The Lakers don't even like each other, they'll be glad to have it over with....

because the books know it and i know it that its still going to be a laker championship series but the fact still remains its something thats never been done before and they have to make the lakers the underdog in to at least a certain degree but why then are giving so short a price? i mean listen, if they made the lakers 15-1 to win the series at this point wouldnt you bet it. you and everybody else including the detroit piston fans.
dont you think 15-1 is a fair price to put up on something that has never been accomplished in the history of basketball? combined with the fact that there is one more game to be played in detroit as well as malone is almost as good as out and the momentum that the pistons have going for themselfs espeacilly with the one game left to be played tonight in their own homecourt. lakers playing 4 staight erratic games showing no indications of a turnaround, larry brown flat outcoaching phil jackson. man the lakers got at least 9-10 things going against them tonight and the rest of the series even if they win tonight and add to that at least 4 to 5-1 against them to come back from a 3 game deficet to win 3 straight and take the championship. i maen you add it all up with all the odds stacked up against them you dont think 15 to 1 is a fair price to give? cause iam tell'n everybody right now that down in your little pea picken handicapp'n hearts you know the lakers cant lose so get ready for the first of three straight and three great laker victories.
if anybody gives the lakers less then a 15-1 chance then that just means that you or they aint so sure about detroit as you all these claims seem to project. 15-1 iam still in the taking mood:D

[chickenhead]

dude, like you say yourself, if it was 15-1 they'd get too much action of the lakers. The book is not into losing money. If you think the Lakers are 15-1, then you've got an underlay with the Pistons.

[GameTheory]

I would not bet on the Lakers at any price. They're gonna lose. The Pistons are better than them. My point is if that if think the Lakers are a lock to win, then why do you need to get such a long price? You should be willing to take any price -- a lock is a lock.

[GameTheory]

Chickenhead brings up a good point. I hate when the media says, "The Vegas oddsmakers think so-and-so has a greater chance to win blah blah blah." But the oddsmakers aren't trying to predict the winner or give a "fair" price. They are trying to get the books balanced -- same amount of money bet on each side. So if the Lakers are really popular and people are going to bet on them no matter what chance they have, they are gonna have a low price. Odds are fairly predictive, but they are just a popularity meter really...

[CapperLou]

I'm hoping Larry Brown wins his first championship--he deserves it!!! He's one of the best coaches and teachers in the NBA for yrs.

And===this coming from an old Celtic fan who moved to Florida some years back.

So I agree with Sal and also believe that defense and wanting to Win makes the difference. The Lakers don't want it bad enough--so it seems to this point and the Pistons are playing defense like the championship team that Dumars played on with Thomas and Rodman etal.

Finally----Phil Jackson is no Red Auerbach!!!!!!!

All the best,

CapperLou

[Tom]

I was in Detroit yesterday...the place is buzzing. Sad part is, win or lose, Detroit will burn tonight. Again.:mad:

[sq764]

FREENEASY, I hope you are thankful that the books were not offering 15/1 on the lakers coming back from 3-1 :-)

This is getting ugly.

[JustRalph]

Free..........Glad you kept your money in your pocket...........

[chickenhead]

I never thought I'd say it, but these NBA playoffs ended way too soon.....I would have watched the Lakers get spanked for at least another 10 games. That was great.

:D :p :D :p :D :p :D :p

[dav4463]

Wiley,

You have the greatest post on the Pistons/Laker series I have ever seen. As a basketball official at the high school level, you said it best. The team that plays defense with their feet and hustles the most after loose balls gets more calls....plain and simple, from 3rd grade to the NBA...everybody thinks the refs care who wins...we don't ! Pistons deserved the win because they simply played better ball.

[Wiley]

David,
Thanks. I live in the Detroit area and have watched this team jell and play hard all year. I felt they were contenders to win it all early and then when they picked up Rasheed Wallace thought they could win it all. Got really tired of hearing the innane comments from Michaels and Rivers on ABC (Where was Doug Collins?). I did did not hear them once mention the Pistons set an all time league mark by not allowing a team to score above 70 points in a game for something like 9 straight games - an incredible feat. I enjoyed the ride and this truly was a team victory. Glad the city did not get too crazy in victory. You must really love the game to ref in high school, I know that is truly one thankless job. I've been playing B'ball going on 40 years. Horse racing about 25 years.
Bill

[sq764]

Ihave to say, the defense was very good.. BUT..the players anymore are just fundmentally TERRIBLE. The shooting is horrible, simply horrible.

They keep saying the scoring is in the 70s and 80s because of great defense.. That's a bunch of crap. The scoring is down because no one can shoot. I'd love to know the disparity from shot attempts between now and the 80s when you commonly had 120-116 games.. I would be willing to guess the actual amount of shots aren't that far off.. The amount made certainly might be..

[chickenhead]

I hope you're better than the refs we had in high school, never missed an opportunity to blow a call.

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
Ihave to say, the defense was very good.. BUT..the players anymore are just fundmentally TERRIBLE. The shooting is horrible, simply horrible.

They keep saying the scoring is in the 70s and 80s because of great defense.. That's a bunch of crap. The scoring is down because no one can shoot. I'd love to know the disparity from shot attempts between now and the 80s when you commonly had 120-116 games.. I would be willing to guess the actual amount of shots aren't that far off.. The amount made certainly might be..

There is no way the shooting percentages have fallen enough to account for the drop in scores. They have probably dropped a little, but not that much. The problem is two-fold.

First, they don't push the ball anymore. They players settle into their half court offense, give the ball to the star of the team, watch him dribble endlessly as the shot clock ticks down, then try to grab the rebound when he hoists up a shot as the clock nears zero. They just don't shoot as fast, and thus don't shoot as often.

The other problem is the three point line. It has made the mid-range jumper, the one MJ thrived on, almost obsolete. Most shots are from beyond the arc, or in the paint, both of which are heavily defended most times. Any team can get a decent 15 foot jumper almost every trip down the floor, but they just won't take them.

[chickenhead]

Good call CJ. Don't forget too, shooting generally improves with age (MJ a good example). Average age has gone down, that hasn't helped the % any either.

[sq764]

CJ, I agree with your first point, to some degree..

The other point I disagree with.. 3 point attempts have dropped drastically from 5-10 years ago. Teams aren't shooting them because they can't..There are very few pure shooters.. And in a dunking/layup league like this, I guess if you can't shoot AND you don't push the ball, it will result in low scores.

[BillW]

I think they changed foul shot rules awhile back also. In the 70's every foul was at least one shot at the line, bonus was 3 chances to make 2. This probably has contributed a 5 to 10 point slip in team scoring average.

But probably lack of shooting is the biggest reason. Just look at the rebounding stats. A power forward such as Jerry Lucas or Bob Petit would average closer to 20/game. Now 10 -13 a game is a solid number.

Bill

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by chickenhead
dude, like you say yourself, if it was 15-1 they'd get too much action of the lakers. The book is not into losing money. If you think the Lakers are 15-1, then you've got an underlay with the Pistons.

why wouldnt you want to take all the action you could handle on the lakers? why should it even matter what kind of an underlay you got on the pistons. past history already dictates that you know how the outcome is going to turn out. the 5th game was already played the second the 4th quarter ended in game #4. betting the pistons was an absolute situation of come and get your free money. so how would the pistons be an underlay at any price?

[GameTheory]

Vegas was already taking a beating from the Pistons winning; I'm sure they didn't want to increase their exposure.

[chickenhead]

there are no sure things in sports.

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by GameTheory
I would not bet on the Lakers at any price. They're gonna lose. The Pistons are better than them. My point is if that if think the Lakers are a lock to win, then why do you need to get such a long price? You should be willing to take any price -- a lock is a lock.

why shouldnt i look to get my price? i mean it makes sense to give 15-1 on the lakers didnt it? i thought so. when you got a lock on the lakers and a lock on the pistons, then whats the difference? i saw a 15 to 1 difference. your locked on to a horse at 20-1, 2 minutes to post he gets bet down to 4-1, are yiou going to bet him? not if you made him 12-1.

[chickenhead]

this is like a match race, if the odds are out of whack then bet the other horse. It works out to the same thing either way, right?

[cj]

Next year's odds are already out, and the Lakers are 9-5!

Detroit, 5-1, along with Minnesota and Sacramento. Spurs are 9-2.

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Free..........Glad you kept your money in your pocket...........

i bet em anyway, degenrate that i am:D what the heck it was a fun bet while it lasted and sho didnt last very long. as soon as they brought the big wheel out with two fouls in the first quarter and the pistons quickly came from down 9 to up and at em, well i let go at the end of the 3rd quarter, went down to the conar liquor sto and gots me my racing foams.
actually when i took the lakers they went down a dime from 4-1 to 3.9
i thought this has got to be one of the greatest opportunities any team could ever come up against and that the lakers would be coming out with their nose hairs on fire. oh well. history still awaits

[chickenhead]

Minnesota at 5-1 sounds kinda juicy...

[GameTheory]

What "makes sense" does not matter. How much money bet on each side is what matters. Vegas could care less who has the better chance to do what. They want to have balanced books and take no risk at all. If many people bet on the Lakers, the Lakers price will go down. Just like in horse-racing, except it happens manually, not automatically, and the prices are locked in once you make your bet.

[dav4463]

Officiating basketball is so subjective that somebody (usually the losers) think the refs are out to get them....every call against them is what they think is a "blown call". There are times to make the call and times to let a foul go based on the way a team plays. For example, if there is a hand check, but has no effect on the play...or a player is over the back, but doesn't affect the ability of the player to get a rebound...let it go. It keeps the game flowing and keeps it from being a free throw contest. Unfortunately, some people want something called everytime downcourt....it's up to the official to manage the game.

NBA shots attempted in the late 70's and most of the 80's were around 90 to 100 per game, today it is about 70 to 80.

What I like about Detroit is that even though they are not great shooters, they take good shots and make the extra pass. I think the Spurs would have given them a harder time than LA, but the scores may have looked like 62-58 !

[Bubbles]

You guys are all forgetting about the Pistons's key weapon. Rip Hamilton is one of the best pure shooters around. He thrives on the mid-range game, something everyone seems to have forgotten about, and knows when to pass the ball. Mitch Albom, one of Detroit's best sportswriters, never passes up an opportunity to praise Rip during the playoffs, as he has for the last two years. And he has just cause for this.

[freeneasy]

and dave says, well whadayathink chancy? after this loss it kinda looks like the lakers are having a sale at Costco's. funny