American Pharoah $200k Initial Stud Fee!!

[Bigadam119]

Below is the article. Wow wonder how many they will book at that price.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/14063026/american-pharoah-stud-fee-set-200000

[horses4courses]

Below is the article. Wow wonder how many they will book at that price.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/14063026/american-pharoah-stud-fee-set-200000

A whole bunch, I'm betting :ThmbUp:
Fee will either rise, or fall, after his first couple of crops.
Until then, he's the biggest ticket out there, and deservedly so.

[Fager Fan]

Good luck with that.

They advertised for that amount but couldn't get that amount for Ghostzapper, even though he was superior in talent to AP and also has a far better pedigree.

They won't find many takers at that price.

[Fager Fan]

A whole bunch, I'm betting :ThmbUp:
Fee will either rise, or fall, after his first couple of crops.
Until then, he's the biggest ticket out there, and deservedly so.

No, the hottest ticket is Tapit. Then it's War Front. Empire Maker and Medaglia d'Oro will book up very quickly as well.

You don't put that kind of stud fee in less than a top mare. I'm guessing most of the owners with those kind of mares will much prefer the proven stallions above and others above a very expensive unproven stallion.

[Bigadam119]

Good luck with that.

They advertised for that amount but couldn't get that amount for Ghostzapper, even though he was superior in talent to AP and also has a far better pedigree.

They won't find many takers at that price.

I'm not sure about the superior in talent part.

[no breathalyzer]

I would rather breed my mare to City Place :lol:

[Mr.XXX]

Call me crazy, I'd price it at one million...for...four years of one breeding each, no live birth entitles an extra breeding.

Price goes up when babies start winning, so get in on it now.

[Stillriledup]

Good luck with that.

They advertised for that amount but couldn't get that amount for Ghostzapper, even though he was superior in talent to AP and also has a far better pedigree.

They won't find many takers at that price.

If he's worth 200k why announce it so soon? Seems like they want to cash in before the reality sets in.

[nijinski]

That's high for a first crop stallion . I heard projections of $100,000 to start..

Then again the long wait for the TC and then a Grand Slam will attract .

[Tall One]

Thanks for the link. That's a pretty quick decision I guess. I understood they weren't going to test fertility, or even a dry run in the shed, until next month?

[Donttellmeshowme]

1st year sire at $200K? They done fell off the turnip truck..

[Tall One]

No surprise Pioneerof the Nile's fee goes up to $125, and is still a good bargain. Good news for Winstar.. :ThmbUp:

[Bigadam119]

No surprise Pioneerof the Nile's fee goes up to $125, and is still a good bargain. Good news for Winstar.. :ThmbUp:
Shouldn't his fee be more than AP? He's already proven he can sure a great one.

[Fager Fan]

Shouldn't his fee be more than AP? He's already proven he can sure a great one.

Remove AP from his stats and he plummets to like 80. He's not worth six figures. Now Grandpa, that's a different story. Empire Maker will be hotter than either his son or grandson.

[horses4courses]

No, the hottest ticket is Tapit. Then it's War Front. Empire Maker and Medaglia d'Oro will book up very quickly as well.

You don't put that kind of stud fee in less than a top mare. I'm guessing most of the owners with those kind of mares will much prefer the proven stallions above and others above a very expensive unproven stallion.

Supply and demand.

His sire has a full book each year.
AP will too. In his first season, at least.

No first crop stallion is a proven commodity.
A TC winner will command a high fee, and have plenty of takers. :ThmbUp:

[RacingFan1992]

Wouldn't it be funny if they bred Beholder to American Pharoah? lol. That would piss off a lot of people. Are they going to cut Zayat a check if his fertility fails and he is retired from stud just as in the case of Cigar's fertility failure?

[whodoyoulike]

Wouldn't it be funny if they bred Beholder to American Pharoah? lol. That would piss off a lot of people. Are they going to cut Zayat a check if his fertility fails and he is retired from stud just as in the case of Cigar's fertility failure?

I know Cigar was older when he went to stud but if AP has fertility problems, can he come back since he'll be only 4 or 5?

Obviously, he'll have to have time for training etc.

[Stillriledup]

Wouldn't it be funny if they bred Beholder to American Pharoah? lol. That would piss off a lot of people. Are they going to cut Zayat a check if his fertility fails and he is retired from stud just as in the case of Cigar's fertility failure?

I would imagine she's going to be bred to a Spendthrift stallion, but that's just a guess.
http://www.spendthriftfarm.com/stallions.html

[Fager Fan]

Supply and demand.

His sire has a full book each year.
AP will too. In his first season, at least.

No first crop stallion is a proven commodity.
A TC winner will command a high fee, and have plenty of takers. :ThmbUp:

I disagree. Spectacular Bid, Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away, Ghostzapper... Even Affirmed and Secretariat.... None reached the upper echelon of sires that command 6 figures. We have to go back to Slew for the exception. And the upper tier stallions? Tapit, Mr. P, Storm Cat, Danzig... They weren't upper echelon on the track.

Breeders know that breeding is a totally different game, and the pedigree lacks. Maybe Coolmore will fill half of his book with their own mares but I really would be surprised to hear he booked full at that price. Hoopla from fans and the press doesn't equate to season contracts. I think the fee is more for appearances and the reality is that deals will be cut just as they found they had to do with Ghostzapper.

[FrankieFigs]

I'm really surprised by the $200k fee. Strike while the irons hot....

Give me $200k and I'd rather go to War Front than AP. WF already proven as a sire. Basic logic for me (did I just use the phrase "basic logic" in a horse racing thread? :D )

[tucker6]

I disagree. Spectacular Bid, Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away, Ghostzapper... Even Affirmed and Secretariat.... None reached the upper echelon of sires that command 6 figures. We have to go back to Slew for the exception. And the upper tier stallions? Tapit, Mr. P, Storm Cat, Danzig... They weren't upper echelon on the track.

Breeders know that breeding is a totally different game, and the pedigree lacks. Maybe Coolmore will fill half of his book with their own mares but I really would be surprised to hear he booked full at that price. Hoopla from fans and the press doesn't equate to season contracts. I think the fee is more for appearances and the reality is that deals will be cut just as they found they had to do with Ghostzapper.
Not sure this statement is true. Didn't Secretariat command a stud fee of around $125,000 for at least a portion of his career back in the 70's and 80's? If so, inflation would equate that to well over $300k in today's world.

[ManU918]

Call me crazy, I'd price it at one million...for...four years of one breeding each, no live birth entitles an extra breeding.

Price goes up when babies start winning, so get in on it now.

Not crazy...idiotic.

[chadk66]

at that price he will command the best mares. which will lead to the foals bringing enormous money at auction. so 200K isn't that much. People tend to forget stud fees are far lower than they were twenty five/thirty years ago when figured for inflation. And you also have to remember this business is full of people that just want to claim they have a foal by a certain so and so.

[Tall One]

Remove AP from his stats and he plummets to like 80. He's not worth six figures. Now Grandpa, that's a different story. Empire Maker will be hotter than either his son or grandson.

If it wasn't for his son, he'd probably stay at $60K.

Agreed on Empire Maker. Glad he's out on Paris Pike..:ThmbUp:


And you also have to remember this business is full of people that just want to claim they have a foal by a certain so and so.


Oh yeah..AP babies will be similar to finding a Wonka gold wrapper. We got one..! :D

[Fager Fan]

at that price he will command the best mares. which will lead to the foals bringing enormous money at auction. so 200K isn't that much. People tend to forget stud fees are far lower than they were twenty five/thirty years ago when figured for inflation. And you also have to remember this business is full of people that just want to claim they have a foal by a certain so and so.

I've heard such from time to time yet never heard it from a breeder or owner. They want a good individual or a good racehorse. I've never heard one who gives a flip what the pedigree is if it's neither of those things (except to maybe cry over the money down the drain).

Regarding stud fees, I think we're getting into dangerous territory again. I think we had 5 stallions at $100k+ last year (Tapit, War Front, Distorted Humor, Kitten's Joy and Medaglia). Now we're adding AP, POTN, Empire Maker, Speightstown and Curlin to that group, doubling the number. They're increasing Super Saver to $65k and a number of others are getting bumped up.

[AndyC]

.....Regarding stud fees, I think we're getting into dangerous territory again.

Dangerous for whom?

[Fager Fan]

Dangerous for whom?

The breeders.

Add Uncle Mo going up to $75k.

Small and medium breeders aren't being given reasonable fees on proven stallions and they're getting absolutely killed at the sales already.

[Tall One]

Word is kinda out that Super Saver is a win early sire.

Also, there's no doubt the breeders are banking on the success of AP, and if some of the results in the November sale is any indication, the industry might see a nice spike in interest.

[Robert Goren]

There is a sucker born every minute and some of them have inherited way too much money.

[AndyC]

The breeders.

Add Uncle Mo going up to $75k.

Small and medium breeders aren't being given reasonable fees on proven stallions and they're getting absolutely killed at the sales already.

How does one price going up make the others go down? It would seem that the higher fees demanded for the top sires would result in a greater demand for second tier sires just on the basis of price.

[Bigadam119]

I've heard such from time to time yet never heard it from a breeder or owner. They want a good individual or a good racehorse. I've never heard one who gives a flip what the pedigree is if it's neither of those things (except to maybe cry over the money down the drain).

Regarding stud fees, I think we're getting into dangerous territory again. I think we had 5 stallions at $100k+ last year (Tapit, War Front, Distorted Humor, Kitten's Joy and Medaglia). Now we're adding AP, POTN, Empire Maker, Speightstown and Curlin to that group, doubling the number. They're increasing Super Saver to $65k and a number of others are getting bumped up.

Scat Daddy is also $100k

[chadk66]

I've heard such from time to time yet never heard it from a breeder or owner. They want a good individual or a good racehorse. I've never heard one who gives a flip what the pedigree is if it's neither of those things (except to maybe cry over the money down the drain).

Regarding stud fees, I think we're getting into dangerous territory again. I think we had 5 stallions at $100k+ last year (Tapit, War Front, Distorted Humor, Kitten's Joy and Medaglia). Now we're adding AP, POTN, Empire Maker, Speightstown and Curlin to that group, doubling the number. They're increasing Super Saver to $65k and a number of others are getting bumped up.MN is a classic example. Breeders go down to KY and buy unraced or unproven mares that aren't worth $10. But they're bred to a fashionable stallion because the owner had shares in the stud. They then have a somewhat marketable mare that they can sell for 5K. So dude from MN buys it knowing people in MN don't give a rats azz about the dam side. Then they sell a marginal looking foal for 30K in the auction that never runs a lick. But they brag to all their buddies they have a horse by some super duper stud. I watched quite a few sell for three times what they were worth because they were sired by a certain sire. No matter the looks of the horse or the confirmation, etc.

[nijinski]

The breeders.

Add Uncle Mo going up to $75k.

Small and medium breeders aren't being given reasonable fees on proven stallions and they're getting absolutely killed at the sales already.

According to Coolmore he's on fire !

[Fager Fan]

According to Coolmore he's on fire !

He's doing fabulous, but I still think $75k is too much. There have been a lot of young stallions who cool down considerably after that first crop or two.

I think stud fees across the board are too high, not leaving room for the breeder to make a profit. I think Mo would've been more appropriately priced at $50k.

[Frost king]

Just hope that we don't have another FugPeg on our hands. Coolmore had this poor guy covering goats all over the world. He now stands for $7500.

[RXB]

Tapit and Storm Cat were G1 winners. Mr Prospector wasn't but did set a couple of track records while Danzig easily won all three of his starts.

15 of the top 16 sires on the 2015 earnings list are G1 winners.

[no breathalyzer]

City Place stud fee was 6000 last i looked.. seems like a much better value to me.. they do nothing but win on any surface. and you will get about the same results as you will breeding to AP.

[Fager Fan]

Tapit and Storm Cat were G1 winners. Mr Prospector wasn't but did set a couple of track records while Danzig easily won all three of his starts.

15 of the top 16 sires on the 2015 earnings list are G1 winners.

My point was that they worked themselves up the ladder. Practically any stallion will have shown some talent else they wouldn't be a stallion.

On the other hand, the horses who were termed "great" at the time they went to stud actually have a bad record. Perhaps worse than the normal odds given the mares they recieved over the normal stallions.

Also with not great stud records are those who start their career at six figures.

So as a breeder or buyer, you know the above to be true. Would you spend $200k and a year with a top mare that is worth that much or more by going to a proven or unproven stallion?

[RXB]

My point was that they worked themselves up the ladder. Practically any stallion will have shown some talent else they wouldn't be a stallion.

On the other hand, the horses who were termed "great" at the time they went to stud actually have a bad record. Perhaps worse than the normal odds given the mares they recieved over the normal stallions.

Also with not great stud records are those who start their career at six figures.

So as a breeder or buyer, you know the above to be true. Would you spend $200k and a year with a top mare that is worth that much or more by going to a proven or unproven stallion?

I agree that he's not nearly worth the risk at 200k, but I don't go along with the data mining.

Stallions that have initially stood for a 100k+ fee constitute a very small sample. I can offer a very small sample that makes just as much (or, just as little) sense for comparison: horses that have won the BC Classic and a Triple Crown race in the same year. There have been four previously: Sunday Silence, Unbridled, AP Indy, Curlin. That's a pretty darn fine foursome of sires right there.

The higher profile studs get more notice when they decline in value, but how about all of the ones that start at medium-high prices that decline just as badly on a percentage basis, such as Action This Day (20k to 1k) or The Cliff's Edge (30k to 2k)?