Older male Liams Map vs Honor Code?

[Kash$]

Who wins older male Honor Code or Liams Map?

[Spalding No!]

Why aren't they contesting the Cigar Mile along with Private Zone to figure it out?

Oh, yeah, don't want to disrupt the stud plans.

If the requirement is a pair of top class wins this year, I'll take Shared Belief.

Or give it to The Pizza Man or something.

[Bigadam119]

Hard not to like Private Zone, he brought it every race this year. Liked the Run Happy story on Saturday now looking at it really with Private Zone would have held on.

[cj]

I'm with Spalding. Unambitious campaigns for both. I mean Honor Code ran in the Kelso on the same day as the JCGC, and that gets rewarded? Lame. Same with Liam's Map ducking the Classic AND not going in the Cigar Mile. Lame.

[Kash$]

I'm with Spalding. Unambitious campaigns for both. I mean Honor Code ran in the Kelso on the same day as the JCGC, and that gets rewarded? Lame. Same with Liam's Map ducking the Classic AND not going in the Cigar Mile. Lame.

Your vote?

[cj]

Your vote?

Shared Belief, Big Blue Kitten, anybody but them. I'm not saying one of the two in the thread title won't win, just hate seeing that kind of scheduling rewarded.

[ronsmac]

Although he took the easy way out, Liam's Map ran 3 of the most impressive races I've seen all year. I give it to him, hands down.Honor code wasn't even competitive in his last two races. He never looked like a winner.

[Redboard]

I’d vote for Liam's Map. His win in the Breeders Cup dirt mile was electrifying, a man among boys. It’s not like he skipped the entire Breeders Cup – at least he showed up.

Although the east coast biased will never be the same. Here is the Woodward winner ducking the BCC because he’s afraid of a west coast mare and west coast 3YrOld!

[Rex Phinney]

I’d vote for Liam's Map. His win in the Breeders Cup dirt mile was electrifying, a man among boys. It’s not like he skipped the entire Breeders Cup – at least he showed up.

Although the east coast biased will never be the same. Here is the Woodward winner ducking the BCC because he’s afraid of a west coast mare and west coast 3YrOld!

He was a man among boys, it was the Breeders Cup Dirt Mile...

I just can't stomach giving the award to connections who clearly ducked the big race. Especially when the horse looked that good on Friday. He deserved a shot at the big one.

[Spalding No!]

Meanwhile, Tonalist is pointing to the Cigar Mile. With a win in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and several placings elsewhere, he at least deserves mention for champion older horse were he to win the Cigar.

He will also be in training next year, so perhaps he can emulate Cryptoclearance and run 5th in 3 straight BC Classics.

Tonalist is by world renowned, in-demand sire Tapit from the female family of HOY Havre De Grace and a classic winner (2014 Belmont Stakes), so given the claims of the apologists for the Liam's Map camp, this is no mean feat by Robert Evans to keep him in training.

[Hoops McCann]

vacate the award this year. or give it to Effinex because he was the only one able to finish within 7 lengths of American Pharaoh.

[ronsmac]

Meanwhile, Tonalist is pointing to the Cigar Mile. With a win in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and several placings elsewhere, he at least deserves mention for champion older horse were he to win the Cigar.

He will also be in training next year, so perhaps he can emulate Cryptoclearance and run 5th in 3 straight BC Classics.

Tonalist is by world renowned, in-demand sire Tapit from the female family of HOY Havre De Grace and a classic winner (2014 Belmont Stakes), so given the claims of the apologists for the Liam's Map camp, this is no mean feat by Robert Evans to keep him in training.Tonalist is a joke.

[cj]

Tonalist is a joke.

A joke? He isn't a champion, but he did win the Belmont and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. I'd take that joke anyday if were mine.

[classhandicapper]

Honor Code and Liam's Map both have two Grade 1 victories.

Honor Code has the H2H edge 1-0.

That would tilt it towards Honor Code.

After that it starts getting into trips, weight, figures etc...

Some would say Liam's Map was better when they met given the pace and others would point out that HC was carrying 7 more pounds in that race.

Honor Code had some pace help in the Met, but Liam's Map had pace help in the Woodward.

I'm not sure who should get the award but imo Liam's Map is the better horse.

[cj]

Honor Code and Liam's Map both have two Grade 1 victories.

Honor Code has the H2H edge 1-0.

That would tilt it towards Honor Code.

After that it starts getting into trips, weight, figures etc...

Some would say Liam's Map was better when they met given the pace and others would point out that HC was carrying 7 more pounds in that race.

Honor Code had some pace help in the Met, but Liam's Map had pace help in the Woodward.

I'm not sure who should get the award but imo Liam's Map is the better horse.

Breeders' Cup win, even if in a minor BC race, probably bumps Liam's Map over Honor Code in my opinion.

[ronsmac]

A joke? He isn't a champion, but he did win the Belmont and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. I'd take that joke anyday if were mine.jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1. A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing. For God sakes commisioner ran 2nd. I don't want to get started on what's a grade one. There probably should be no more than 25 or 30 gr. I's. The grade 2 San antonio was tougher than the grade I Big Cap just like the Grade 3 Phoenix was deeper than the Grade I Kings Bishop. The whole system needs to be revamped. Who wouldn't want to own Tonalist. I would like to own Moreno and he sucks. Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.

[cj]

jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1. A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing. For God sakes commisioner ran 2nd. I don't want to get started on what's a grade one. There probably should be no more than 25 or 30 gr. I's. The grade 2 San antonio was tougher than the grade I Big Cap just like the Grade 3 Phoenix was deeper than the Grade I Kings Bishop. The whole system needs to be revamped. Who wouldn't want to own Tonalist. I would like to own Moreno and he sucks. Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.

[ronsmac]

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.JCGC has had better years, but Tonalist won the last two and he was an6easy toss in both Breeders Cups. I just remember a lot of great or very good horses skipping it, like Holy Bull, Ghostzapper and St.Liam. I must mention Cigar and Skip away running though .

[Kash$]

I agree about the graded system. This was a weak JCGC this year, agreed, but it isn't typically weak. I have no problem with it being a G1.


Cj JCGC was weak this year. BC mile didn't exactly have world beaters.

[cj]

Cj JCGC was weak this year. BC mile didn't exactly have world beaters.

Very true, the JCGC was stronger race IMO.

[zico20]

Tonalist is a joke.

Yes he is, except if he is running in New York. I called him an easy toss for the BC after his win in the JCGC. However, he could be tough in the Cigar being back in NY.

[Pine Tree Lane]

If Private Zone wins the Cigar Mile, he should win the Eclipse for older horse. Danced every dance, brought his game every time.

[Spalding No!]

jcgc is a grade 3 even though they call it a grade 1.
What did you call the Woodward then, Copernicus? Nearly identical fields substituting Liam's Map for Tonalist.

A mile and a half for today's 3yos in June means nothing.
Really? Let's see:
2015- American Pharoah- won Haskell, BC Classic
2014- Tonalist- won JCGC twice, etc.
2013- Palace Malice- won Met Mile, etc.
2010- Drosselmeyer- won BC Classic
2009- Summer Bird- won Travers, JCGC

Prior years saw Rags To Riches, Afleet Alex, Birdstone, Empire Maker, Point Given, Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, Touch Gold, Thunder Gulch, AP Indy, Easy Goer.

What on earth are you talking about?

I don't want to get started on what's a grade one.
Apparently if it has Liam's Map and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 1. If it has Tonalist and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 3.

Makes sense.

Putting Tonalist in the older horse discussion is the joke.
There are always 3 finalists for the Eclipse award titles. If you don't think there's a good chance Tonalist is one of those (granted highly unlikely to win) then you are as out of touch as the rest of your post.

[reckless]

I'd have to give it to Liam's Map over Honor Code if I had a vote.

Liam's Map got zapped at the wire in the quickly-run Whitney Handicap, then followed that up with smashing, fast wins in the Woodward and BC Mile.

Honor Code did win over LM in the Whitney, but basically didn't run a jump in the Kelso Handicap and BC Classic.

I am disappointed (again) about Liam's Map's people not running in the Cigar Mile. I was under the impression that the reason his people put him in the BC Mile and not the Classic was because a BC Mile win, plus a win in the Cigar Mile, would guarantee an Eclipse Award as top older handicap horse.

He probably will still win the Eclipse Award.

[ronsmac]

What did you call the Woodward then, Copernicus? Nearly identical fields substituting Liam's Map for Tonalist.


Really? Let's see:
2015- American Pharoah- won Haskell, BC Classic
2014- Tonalist- won JCGC twice, etc.
2013- Palace Malice- won Met Mile, etc.
2010- Drosselmeyer- won BC Classic
2009- Summer Bird- won Travers, JCGC

Prior years saw Rags To Riches, Afleet Alex, Birdstone, Empire Maker, Point Given, Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, Touch Gold, Thunder Gulch, AP Indy, Easy Goer.

What on earth are you talking about?


Apparently if it has Liam's Map and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 1. If it has Tonalist and Effinex, Coach Inge, and Wicked Strong its a Grade 3.

Makes sense.


There are always 3 finalists for the Eclipse award titles. If you don't think there's a good chance Tonalist is one of those (granted highly unlikely to win) then you are as out of touch as the rest of your post.Call it a grade1 if you like. It's not. As far as the Belmont is concerned, unless a TC is on the line, you may have two decent horses in the field. If that. The only part of your post I agree with was your point about this years Woodward. The graded system is for breeding purposes , to artificially inflate the value of these horses. Imo the very best races only should be grade 1s.

[Spalding No!]

Call it a grade1 if you like. It's not. As far as the Belmont is concerned, unless a TC is on the line, you may have two decent horses in the field. If that.

You really are going to contest the importance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup? OK...last several renewals:

Tonalist- Belmont winner
Ron The Greek- Big Cap winner, Stephen Foster winner, top horse in Saudi Arabia, beat Flat Out, Palace Malice, Alpha, Orb
Flat Out- multiple JCGC, multiple Suburbans, Cigar Mile, he has a lot of seconds and thirds like Tonalist (because he danced every dance), so I guess he sucks, too; in his first JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Drosselmeyer; in his second JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Fort Larned
Haynesfield- 10 for 19 top NY-bred, beat subsequent BC Classic winner Blame
Summer Bird- Belmont and Travers winner, beat Quality Road (Donn, Met Mile, Woodward)
Curlin- Classic winner, DWC winner, BC Classic winner, etc.

Wow. That's a lot of BC Classic winners coming out of that race. Combine that with the Woodward, which since 2001 produced subsequent BC Classic winners Tiznow, Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, and Curlin (again) and you account for a lot of BC Classics.

Perhaps the BC Classic should be a Grade 3, too?

Meanwhile, the Belmont Stakes is a North American Classic restricted to 3yos. It's purpose is to identify the top class horses from that year's 3yo crop. In that sense, it is not uncommon to see fields with several unheralded runners, lest you expect the majority of 2yo stakes winners around one-turn making it to the race. If the race does its job, then several good runners will come out of the race.

2015- aside from American Pharoah, Frosted, Keen Ice, and Madefromlucky all won major stakes subsequently
2014- aside from Tonalist, California Chrome, Commissioner, and Wicked Strong all won stakes
2013- aside from Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Overanalyze, Revolutionary, and Vyjack all won stakes
2012- Paynter, Dullahan, and Optimizer all won stakes
2011- Stay Thirsty, Shackleford, Brilliant Speed, Animal Kingdom, Mucho Macho Man all won stakes
2010- Drosselmeyer, First Dude, Game On Dude, all won major stakes

[ronsmac]

You really are going to contest the importance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup? OK...last several renewals:

Tonalist- Belmont winner
Ron The Greek- Big Cap winner, Stephen Foster winner, top horse in Saudi Arabia, beat Flat Out, Palace Malice, Alpha, Orb
Flat Out- multiple JCGC, multiple Suburbans, Cigar Mile, he has a lot of seconds and thirds like Tonalist (because he danced every dance), so I guess he sucks, too; in his first JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Drosselmeyer; in his second JCGC he defeated subsequent BC Classic winner Fort Larned
Haynesfield- 10 for 19 top NY-bred, beat subsequent BC Classic winner Blame
Summer Bird- Belmont and Travers winner, beat Quality Road (Donn, Met Mile, Woodward)
Curlin- Classic winner, DWC winner, BC Classic winner, etc.

Wow. That's a lot of BC Classic winners coming out of that race. Combine that with the Woodward, which since 2001 produced subsequent BC Classic winners Tiznow, Ghostzapper, Saint Liam, and Curlin (again) and you account for a lot of BC Classics.

Perhaps the BC Classic should be a Grade 3, too?

Meanwhile, the Belmont Stakes is a North American Classic restricted to 3yos. It's purpose is to identify the top class horses from that year's 3yo crop. In that sense, it is not uncommon to see fields with several unheralded runners, lest you expect the majority of 2yo stakes winners around one-turn making it to the race. If the race does its job, then several good runners will come out of the race.

2015- aside from American Pharoah, Frosted, Keen Ice, and Madefromlucky all won major stakes subsequently
2014- aside from Tonalist, California Chrome, Commissioner, and Wicked Strong all won stakes
2013- aside from Palace Malice, Will Take Charge, Overanalyze, Revolutionary, and Vyjack all won stakes
2012- Paynter, Dullahan, and Optimizer all won stakes
2011- Stay Thirsty, Shackleford, Brilliant Speed, Animal Kingdom, Mucho Macho Man all won stakes
2010- Drosselmeyer, First Dude, Game On Dude, all won major stakesNow we're touting Ron the greek and tonalist. Ok buddy you're right. JCGC is the greatest race in the history of racing.

[cj]

Now we're touting Ron the greek and tonalist. Ok buddy you got it. JCGC is the greatest race in the history of racing.

I think you are confusing a champion and G1 winner. What was wrong with Ron the Greek? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Sunshine Millions, The Foster, and the Santa Anita Handicap along with numerous other G1 placings. Your standards must be through the roof.

[ronsmac]

I think you are confusing a champion and G1 winner. What was wrong with Ron the Greek? He won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the Sunshine Millions, The Foster, and the Santa Anita Handicap along with numerous other G1 placings. Your standards must be through the roof.Grade 1s aren't what they used to be, he was solid. I remember that Big Cap ,Insane pace meltdown. I'm just saying the last 6 or 7 JCGC winners aren't a great lot.

[Tom]

What races were any better?

[Spalding No!]

Grade 1s aren't what they used to be, he was solid. I remember that Big Cap ,Insane pace meltdown. I'm just saying the last 6 or 7 JCGC winners aren't a great lot.
Yawn. You're changing goal posts all over the place.

The JCGC shouldn't be a Grade 1 even though, along with the Woodward, it has been the key stakes race in terms of producing BC Classic winners for the last decade and a half.

In addition, because the winners of the JCGC haven't been to your liking, that means the race that year sucked. Never mind that several of the aforementioned BC Classic winners lost the race.

It also is interesting that you seem to denigrate good, top class horses like Ron The Greek, Flat Out, Tonalist, even Curlin. Horses that displayed class, longevity, stamina, and speed. It's like they are being docked for showing up to run every month, rather than sitting around bullet breezing, skipping races, finalizing early stud deals before their careers are over, running once every 2 or 3 months, and never straying beyond 9f.

The good news for you is, there isn't too many of those types of horses around anymore. So sit back and enjoy when they cut back the JCGC to 9f so your favorite stretch-out speedball with multiple layoffs and dicey, fragile joints can dazzle the eye with open length romps in 5 horse fields to get that 4th or 5th straight win before calling it a day after less than 10 starts and on to greater glory siring 6- and 7-figure yearlings that turn out to do nothing.

Pretty soon, if your perspective takes hold, the Keeneland Yearling Sales will generate more fanfare than the Triple Crown.

[ronsmac]

Yawn. You're changing goal posts all over the place.

The JCGC shouldn't be a Grade 1 even though, along with the Woodward, it has been the key stakes race in terms of producing BC Classic winners for the last decade and a half.

In addition, because the winners of the JCGC haven't been to your liking, that means the race that year sucked. Never mind that several of the aforementioned BC Classic winners lost the race.

It also is interesting that you seem to denigrate good, top class horses like Ron The Greek, Flat Out, Tonalist, even Curlin. Horses that displayed class, longevity, stamina, and speed. It's like they are being docked for showing up to run every month, rather than sitting around bullet breezing, skipping races, finalizing early stud deals before their careers are over, running once every 2 or 3 months, and never straying beyond 9f.

The good news for you is, there isn't too many of those types of horses around anymore. So sit back and enjoy when they cut back the JCGC to 9f so your favorite stretch-out speedball with multiple layoffs and dicey, fragile joints can dazzle the eye with open length romps in 5 horse fields to get that 4th or 5th straight win before calling it a day after less than 10 starts and on to greater glory siring 6- and 7-figure yearlings that turn out to do nothing.

Pretty soon, if your perspective takes hold, the Keeneland Yearling Sales will generate more fanfare than the Triple Crown.Did Tonalist even run in the Breeders cup these last two years? I changed the channel before he finished the race he was so far behind . I guess Effinex should be nominated for top older horse since he beat Tonalist twice.

[Spalding No!]

Did Tonalist even run in the Breeders cup these last two years? I changed the channel before he finished the race he was so far behind . I guess Effinex should be nominated for top older horse since he beat Tonalist twice.
Give it up. Tonalist is a very good horse.

Is your last name Coburn?

[ronsmac]

Give it up. Tonalist is a very good horse.

Is your last name Coburn? Ok he's very good, but as my original post states. He's a joke when considered for top older horse as one poster mentioned. It's a two horse race, just as the thread suggests. Tonalist 0-3 vs Honor Code and 0-1 vs Liams map. Great in slop at Belmont I'll give you that.

[Spalding No!]

Ok he's very good, but as my original post states. He's a joke when considered for top older horse as one poster mentioned. It's a two horse race, just as the thread suggests. Tonalist 0-3 vs Honor Code and 0-1 vs Liams map. Great in slop at Belmont I'll give you that.
That was me.

As I said before, if he won the Cigar Mile, he would deserve mention for champion older horse, and more than likely would be the 3rd finalist for the Eclipse (Effinex and Shared Belief also being possibilities).

I brought him up because he's scheduled to run again this year and he'll be running next year, which was relevant because the two frontrunners for the award had very tailored campaigns and went straight to the breeding shed after their respective last starts.

The only race Tonalist skipped all year was the Woodward, and he is arguably more accomplished over his entire career than the other two, and he has arguably the better (or at least more fashionable) pedigree than the other two (yet is not being whisked off to stud). Combine that with his longevity (presuming he continues to race) and clearly superior stamina to those two and you have the type of horse that fans of horse racing should be hoping to see more of.

None of that says he deserves an Eclipse for 2015, though.

[SuperPickle]

Breeders' Cup win, even if in a minor BC race, probably bumps Liam's Map over Honor Code in my opinion.

CJ's right. If you don't weigh the World Championships as more than one race than they're not really World Championships.

I realize Honor Code beat him head-to-head but considering Liam's Map went 1:09 3/5 for six going a mile eighth and got nailed in the last jump I'm not letting that own my opinion.

Also Honor Code's two races out of NY were really bad.

[Spalding No!]

Also Honor Code's two races out of NY were really bad.
He beat Private Zone at Gulfstream at a flat mile in March.

[Fager Fan]

I wouldn't reward LM for the win in the lesser race. Of course he won that race impressively - because the best horses were in the other race, the one he dodged. I'd give it to Honor Code. Private Zone is a sprinter so that's his category. It's too bad that horse has to go without an award, he was so good this year.

[LottaKash]

It's too bad that horse has to go without an award, he was so good this year.

Kash can be, it's own well deserved reward ... :jump: ...