Why did Liam's Map retire?

[Bigadam119]

I know we hang on the retirement to early subject a lot, but seriously Liam's Map was relevant for from August to October and for three races. (Whitney, Woodward, BC Dirt Mile) he wasn't injured and seemed to be getting better. I don't get it.

[GatetoWire]

Biggest issue in racing. Do the math.
He is worth more in the breeding shed than on the racetrack.
He will make more breeding this year with zero risk. There is no incentive to race him when you can breed him and collect checks non stop

[Bigadam119]

Biggest issue in racing. Do the math.
He is worth more in the breeding shed than on the racetrack.
He will make more breeding this year with zero risk. There is no incentive to race him when you can breed him and collect checks non stop

Wouldn't he be worth more breeding with more than 3 revelant races? Nobody even knew who he was before the Whitney.

[cj]

Wouldn't he be worth more breeding with more than 3 revelant races? Nobody even knew who he was before the Whitney.

That is a bit of a stretch. Sure, he hadn't been winning G1s, but he had been very impressive before tackling the big boys.

[tucker6]

Nobody even knew who he was before the Whitney.
That is certainly NOT true.

Thread started a year ago on him.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118382&highlight=liam%27s

[Spalding No!]

Valid question, but the decision is not surprising given the fact he was rerouted from the BC Classic to the BC Dirt Mile.

Whoever was in managing the horse clearly has no regard for the sport beyond the business aspect. They had absolutely no interest in finding out how good the horse was. In fact, it looks as though they did everything in their power to "protect" him once he had even the slightest top class credentials after the Whitney.

It's just as well, he's by Unbridled's Song and already had major layoffs earlier in his career. He likely wouldn't have made it beyond next year's Met Mile.

[Bigadam119]

That is certainly NOT true.

Thread started a year ago on him.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118382&highlight=liam%27s

Fair enough, my statement may have been a bit overblown. It's very frustrating we saw him appear in only 3 G1's and seemingly got better in each. My thoughts is he would be worth more at stud with a few more G1's on the resume.

[cbp]

They figured he'd probably never get that perfect a trip again. So, why bother?

[woodbinepmi]

One of the main reasons I have switched all my plays to Hong Kong. All the horses that are stabled there are geldings, due to no breeding system there. Unlike here when we get a real runner, they get him to the brothel as soon as possible, there they continue to run. A horse like Able Friend would have been retired two years ago.

[Rex Phinney]

We need a cap on # of covers per season and no breeding until age 5.

I can't even count how many problems that fixes.

[whodoyoulike]

One of the main reasons I have switched all my plays to Hong Kong. All the horses that are stabled there are geldings, due to no breeding system there. Unlike here when we get a real runner, they get him to the brothel as soon as possible, there they continue to run. A horse like Able Friend would have been retired two years ago.

I didn't know this. Thanks.

Where do their horses come from?

[horses4courses]

They figured he'd probably never get that perfect a trip again. So, why bother?

Very strange post. :confused:

Did you even watch him win last Friday?

[woodbinepmi]

I didn't know this. Thanks.

Where do their horses come from?

Most of the horses are from Australian and New Zealand with a few English and Irish breds in there.

[nijinski]

Valid question, but the decision is not surprising given the fact he was rerouted from the BC Classic to the BC Dirt Mile.

Whoever was in managing the horse clearly has no regard for the sport beyond the business aspect. They had absolutely no interest in finding out how good the horse was. In fact, it looks as though they did everything in their power to "protect" him once he had even the slightest top class credentials after the Whitney.
This paragraph fro DRF , I believe they got advice from the last interest buyer before retiring from the BC mile .

It's just as well, he's by Unbridled's Song and already had major layoffs earlier in his career. He likely wouldn't have made it beyond next year's Met Mile.

You are underestimating the value of a good miler in the breeding shed

Let’s go ahead and agree that he did, if only because Nerud was responsible for the breeding of the greatest American miler in history, Dr. Fager. He also bred Fappiano, winner of the Met Mile, and champion sire Cozzene, winner of the 1985 Breeders’ Cup Mile at Aqueduct.

Drf and Bloodhorse have articles on this , they are in the business , I'm sure they are aware of Neruds success.


They can still be sent to mares with route wins l but breeders do not shy away from a fast miler and many would love a Frankel . :)

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=Bigadam119]I know we hang on the retirement to early subject a lot, but seriously Liam's Map was relevant for from August to October and for three races. (Whitney, Woodward, BC Dirt Mile) he wasn't injured and seemed to be getting better. I don't get it.[/QUOTE

I think the breeding farm is looking for talent , especially as their older studs pension and they are looking To replace with good prospects . Who knows what they were offered .

[Spalding No!]

You are underestimating the value of a good miler in the breeding shed
I made no mention of the horse's value as a stallion beyond saying his racing career was being managed with kid gloves once he had the Grade 1 placing, presumably in order to avoid being exposed (e.g., by distance limitations, other top class horses). Even if he retired this year, he could have started in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the BC Classic, and the Cigar Mile.

If your point is that his stud value would not be affected by his race record due to the sheer strength of his pedigree, then all the more reason to continue racing him, right?

Let’s go ahead and agree that he did, if only because Nerud was responsible for the breeding of the greatest American miler in history, Dr. Fager.
Let's go ahead and agree that he did what? What are we talking about?

FYI, Dr. Fager was more than just a great miler.

He also bred Fappiano, winner of the Met Mile, and champion sire Cozzene, winner of the 1985 Breeders’ Cup Mile at Aqueduct.
More horses from over 30 years ago. Here's another one: Quiet American. Where is this going? What? Because John Nerud was a successful breeder, and Liam's Map has some Tartan families in his pedigree, he's a slam dunk to be a success, thus necessitating early retirement? That's not what came to pass for another top class miler with Nerud bloodlines named Smile. What about Cahill Road? Muttering? Ogygian? Pentelicus? What if Liam's Map were to die young like Codex?

By the way, each of 3 horses you mentioned ran well over 8 career starts, unlike Liam's Map.

Drf and Bloodhorse have articles on this , they are in the business , I'm sure they are aware of Neruds success.
Yeah, I know. That's the problem.

They are in the business, not the sport .

[sandpit]

When you are offered north of $15M to stand him by the same farm that will stand BC Classic entrant Honor Code, the decision to run him in the Dirt Mile and then retire him probably came into focus quite quickly for his owners.

[nijinski]

I made no mention of the horse's value as a stallion beyond saying his racing career was being managed with kid gloves once he had the Grade 1 placing, presumably in order to avoid being exposed (e.g., by distance limitations, other top class horses). Even if he retired this year, he could have started in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, the BC Classic, and the Cigar Mile.

If your point is that his stud value would not be affected by his race record due to the sheer strength of his pedigree, then all the more reason to continue racing him, right?


Let's go ahead and agree that he did what? What are we talking about?

FYI, Dr. Fager was more than just a great miler.


More horses from over 30 years ago. Here's another one: Quiet American. Where is this going? What? Because John Nerud was a successful breeder, and Liam's Map has some Tartan families in his pedigree, he's a slam dunk to be a success, thus necessitating early retirement? That's not what came to pass for another top class miler with Nerud bloodlines named Smile. What about Cahill Road? Muttering? Ogygian? Pentelicus? What if Liam's Map were to die young like Codex?

By the way, each of 3 horses you mentioned ran well over 8 career starts, unlike Liam's Map.


Yeah, I know. That's the problem.

They are in the business, not the sport .

I would absolutely love to see more of Liam's Map , it's a shame .
Unfortunately the times have changed and some owners do put
more weight on the business aspect of racing for economic reasons .
I don't think its because they are all not sporting . But regardless
we need the owners .

I think. you have to be mega wealthy to be able to withhold from some
The offers to keep your horse healthy and racing . It certainly helped some
having that big farm years back and the revenue to be able to give your
runner the time off they might need ., keep the farm and run your other businesses ,Very different times and the trend seems like it will be with us
Very long.
And yes , I'm aware Dr Fager could go a distance :)

[Psychotic Parakeet]

We need a cap on # of covers per season and no breeding until age 5.

I can't even count how many problems that fixes.

^This.

[burnsy]

Yeah, I know. That's the problem.

They are in the business, not the sport .

That is the problem. No human athlete retires after two seasons, unless they get hurt. Hell, most of them don't even hit "prime" until after that. So right there, there's a name recognition problem and a fan following problem. There will be folks that don't even look at horse racing until another AP comes along.

Horse racing has become a totally different culture. I hate to say this but it kind of started with Secretariat and they way they marketed (sold) his stud fees. Before this the game was dominated by magnates, people that made all their money off of other endeavors. If they got a horse that was slow, they lowered it and claimed it off or sold it and took a loss...without a care. If they got a fast horse they raced it, showed up at the big races and bragged about it...........The money was secondary. They didn't care about money at the race track, it was a hobby. They expected to lose on many horses, that was a given and they would fund operations even if they felt they would only get a few fast horses out of the deal. Of course, some did better than others.

Once the breeding became a "business" like it is now, the sport itself is less of one because these horses are here today and gone tomorrow. The entire culture of this game has shifted. The racing pundits hype the handle and these ridiculous stud fees because in most cases Lord knows the horse ain't running no more. The mainstream media wants names and characters (stories). Plus, it takes a gelding or an owner with iron balls to bypass this nonsense. Stalwarts of other games stick around, once they have a following, its easy to hold fan interest. If there's a controversy it captivates the entire nation. Look at Tom Brady and the retiring of Derek Jeter. Horse racing: Liam's Map or American Pharoah cross the finish line and retire, the lights go out and cameras disappear until the next "flash in the pan", the fan tosses his program, spits on the floor and hits the exit. Some come back next season but others find something else to do. Oh, they may tune in and bet the next Derby, Preakness, Belmont or BC and that's about the only "business" the tracks do during the year unless you go to one of the two "Boutique" meets. The mainstream, is on the outside looking in on this sport. Once you can't capture the "mainstream" with fan interest not just the amount fewer people bet...........mainstream turns into "upstream". There probably won't be a national sports news story on horse racing until Derby preps and most of the folks out there could give a crap..........Where's their last hero racing?.....nowhere, and that's where the game is going. Stuck in a rut and spinning its wheels.

[Tom]

No breeding until age 5?
Talk about having a horse shortage.

These owner/breeders are NOT in the business to provide us racing.
We latch onto to their business for the ride.

You can't tell an owner when he can retire his horse and when he can breed him.

[woodbinepmi]

No breeding until age 5?
Talk about having a horse shortage.

These owner/breeders are NOT in the business to provide us racing.
We latch onto to their business for the ride.

You can't tell an owner when he can retire his horse and when he can breed him.

True, it's their property. They can do with it as they see fit.

[Spalding No!]

True, it's their property. They can do with it as they see fit.
Hopefully, they don't drag them down to Mexico to a bar in Tijuana and tie them to a pole.

[woodbinepmi]

Hopefully, they don't drag them down to Mexico to a bar in Tijuana and tie them to a pole.

That's funny, the way I look at it, that's not bad of a life for a donkey in Mexico. To finish off the rest of that story, he hit a groom the next day with the end of a lead shank and the stewards took his license away. It was a bad week for that boy.

[Redboard]

One of the main reasons I have switched all my plays to Hong Kong. All the horses that are stabled there are geldings.....

I’ve often thought this would be a good idea - require all males to be gelded before they can race. This would keep the athletes on the track longer and make it easier for fans to follow their careers. Owners would have to make a decision, either they’re in it to race or breed, not both.

We wouldn’t have to import horses either, at least, for the next 10 years or so. There are enough stallions in the country’s breeding sheds to last the sport for at least that time. A sire can last 20 years or more and service hundreds of mares per year. What determines the number of foals born is the number of broodmares available, which wouldn’t change because the females would be kept fertile - the incentive to “retire” a female isn’t as great as it is for a male.

Of course eventually, all of the stallions would disappear. My suggestion would only be for a 10-year period.

[nijinski]

It's not just here .
Even the Tsui family , originally from China did this. They take a lot of pride in their breeding . They owned Urban Sea and when she died they kept Sea The Stars in the family and he was going to the shed to right after his 3 yo campaign which drew plenty of criticism . For them it was very much business mixed with family pride and honor .
As far as limiting the amount of mares covered . Shuttling the way the large operations do , don't see that happening. I remember some worried about Uncle Mo when his health was fragile. Well he's doing ok :D I think he covered a record amount of mares this year !

[senortout]

Wowsa! Re: Hong Kong geldings..I doubted you, but stand corrected. Checking the H.K advance pps for 11-8-2015, I found 10 races, of which one horse, ONE, was entire! (He races in the second) I have a bit of friendly advice for him....when he comes to the end of the race, just keep on truckin'......
Also of note and also MIND BOGGLING. There was not a filly or mare entered in that entire card.

So, what else is new? ps am I the only guy here who facts checks statements like this? My apologies to the poster here! You could make the general statement that they race only geldings over there.





One of the main reasons I have switched all my plays to Hong Kong. All the horses that are stabled there are geldings, due to no breeding system there. Unlike here when we get a real runner, they get him to the brothel as soon as possible, there they continue to run. A horse like Able Friend would have been retired two years ago.