THOUGHTS ABOUT AMERICAN PHAROAH

[NY BRED]

While I would normally agree Secretariat and his Belmont win
made him one of the greatest horses of all time, the fact remains he lost
to a claimer, Onion, trained by the Chief.

American Pharoah now stands, in my opinion at the top of the chart of all time greats by winning the Triple Crown AND the Breeders Cup.

Until that record is tied, I will stand by this statement.

By the way, this field proved how pitiful the "competition" truly was based on
the finish of Effinex, who might have wired the field were AP not in the race.

Perhaps the scratch of Beholder ,might have altered the finish, but
it is at it is......

Certainly, to the point of the owner of Keen Ice stating he would beat
AP in the BC, where was your wonder boy today??????

let the debate/ rants begin

:1: :1: :1: :1: :1: :1:
:jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:

[cj]

It is a different sport today. No horse in this current era is going to be able to win the number of big races those from the past did. But that doesn't mean today's horses aren't as talented. I'd put this one up there with any of them.

[v j stauffer]

In the top ten of the greatest horses to stand on this or any other planet.

[Kash$]

It is a different sport today. No horse in this current era is going to be able to win the number of big races those from the past did. But that doesn't mean today's horses aren't as talented. I'd put this one up there with any of them.

Hard to say as greats like Slew,Bid,Affirmed returned as 4 year olds,,,heck the Bid was carrying 130pds in gr1 races as a 4 year old

[thaskalos]

American Pharoah is unquestionably the best horse to race in this country in the past 53 years. I would say even longer...but that's how long I've been alive...and I'd rather not speculate about a time that I never saw.

[cj]

Hard to say as greats like Slew,Bid,Affirmed returned as 4 year olds,,,heck the Bid was carrying 130pds in gr1 races as a 4 year old

That is my point though. Unless a gelding wins the Triple Crown it will never happen again.

[Kash$]

American Pharoah is unquestionably the best horse to race in this country in the past 53 years. I would say even longer...but that's how long I've been alive...and I'd rather not speculate about a time that I never saw.

Best horse in lasts 53 years..Better then Affirmed,Bid,Slew?

[Bigadam119]

He is at the top of the charts. To win the Classic like that is incredible. No horse wins the classic like that!

[Kash$]

That is my point though. Unless a gelding wins the Triple Crown it will never happen again.


Estimate figure?..

LM and Beholder woudve gotten smoked..

[Donttellmeshowme]

He looked like he could go around the oval again after he crossed the wire.

[cj]

Estimate figure?..

LM and Beholder woudve gotten smoked..

No point in estimating, I'll be working on them soon.

[TJDave]

American Pharoah is unquestionably the best horse to race in this country in the past 53 years. I would say even longer...but that's how long I've been alive...and I'd rather not speculate about a time that I never saw.

You were alive in '73. No way better than Red.

[thaskalos]

You were alive in '73. No way better than Red.
Didn't you hear? Red lost to a "Claimer".

[Redboard]

What an amazing ending to an incredible year. I never thought I’d live to see another Triple Crown winner. So much can go wrong with these animals, and it usually does. Will probably never see another one like him again.

[Spalding No!]

He is at the top of the charts. To win the Classic like that is incredible. No horse wins the classic like that!
Skip Away in 1997.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I have saw many good and wonderful horses run,From "Big Red' to American Pharaoh.Times have changed so much since Big Red ran,He done it against many great horses that went on to be wonderful stallions and their offspring becoming wonderful runners.I had a tear in my eye watching this race tonight,Not for the horse but for the people who came to see greatness as many never saw Secretariat run.You dont have to be a owner or trainer to feel emotion for a superstar as bright as this horse.Sad thing is,When will we see another!
A perfect ending for America's Horse!

[Grits]

I have saw many good and wonderful horses run,From "Big Red' to American Pharaoh.Times have changed so much since Big Red ran,He done it against many great horses that went on to be wonderful stallions and their offspring becoming wonderful runners.I had a tear in my eye watching this race tonight,Not for the horse but for the people who came to see greatness as many never saw Secretariat run.You dont have to be a owner or trainer to feel emotion for a superstar as bright as this horse.Sad thing is,When will we see another!
A perfect ending for America's Horse!

So well written, Tom. You've captured the gift that is American Pharoah. :)

[zico20]

American Pharoah is unquestionably the best horse to race in this country in the past 53 years. I would say even longer...but that's how long I've been alive...and I'd rather not speculate about a time that I never saw.

I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you. Spectacular Bid would have dusted AP if he was in this race. SB ran 145.4 and 157.4 as a four year old. SB ran that 157.4 on 14 days rest. I am so happy AP won in convincing fashion and he should go down as a great race horse. However, AP never ran a time that fast. He may have if allowed to run as a four year old, but that is pure speculation, unfortunately.

[Tall One]

In the top ten of the greatest horses to stand on this or any other planet.


:ThmbUp:

[MonmouthParkJoe]

I am only 33, and have wished to see a triple crown winner, one deserving of it, all my years. AP brought me to tears this year, and today was the cherry on top.

There were alot of naysayers about his greatness. Much like comparing athletes from different eras, its just as hard to do it with horses from years past.

What we saw this year was special, and it was a privilege to see him in person this year.

People will always debate it, but he is the best ive ever seen. Scary to think how great he could be as an older horse. That being said, if i was the owner the money he could make as a stallion would make me do the same thing.

It was a great year, fo sho

[cj]

I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you. Spectacular Bid would have dusted AP if he was in this race. SB ran 145.4 and 157.4 as a four year old. SB ran that 157.4 on 14 days rest. I am so happy AP won in convincing fashion and he should go down as a great race horse. However, AP never ran a time that fast. He may have if allowed to run as a four year old, but that is pure speculation, unfortunately.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm from thask...he can correct me if I'm wrong.

[NY BRED]

Wow, guess we are pretty much on the same page.

I neglected to add that I'm pretty much over the Bayern scenario,
so I have to note the incredible work ethic and genius of Bob Baffert
in the conditioning of AP.

Any thoughts how this effort will the Eclipse awards for Trainer
of the year?

[cj]

Baffert should get top trainer I would think, but there will be support for Chad Brown.

[bcgreg]

I am only 33, and have wished to see a triple crown winner, one deserving of it, all my years. AP brought me to tears this year, and today was the cherry on top.

There were alot of naysayers about his greatness. Much like comparing athletes from different eras, its just as hard to do it with horses from years past.

What we saw this year was special, and it was a privilege to see him in person this year.

People will always debate it, but he is the best ive ever seen. Scary to think how great he could be as an older horse. That being said, if i was the owner the money he could make as a stallion would make me do the same thing.

It was a great year, fo sho

Joe...thanks for posting. :ThmbUp:

It will be because of YOU and the thousands of other racing fans that had a chance to see AP make history today that will help this sport survive.

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=McSchell_Racing]I have saw many good and wonderful horses run,From "Big Red' to American Pharaoh.Times have changed so much since Big Red ran,He done it against many great horses that went on to be wonderful stallions and their offspring becoming wonderful runners.I had a tear in my eye watching this race tonight,Not for the horse but for the people who came to see greatness as many never saw Secretariat run.You dont have to be a owner or trainer to feel emotion for a superstar as bright as this horse.Sad thing is,Wh
en will we see another!
A perfect ending for America's Horse![/QUOTE
Nice to hear from others in the business as you know what goes into the training and care of the horses day in and out .I have read some of the best compliments
People like yourself and it's also fantastic when I hear it from those from other continents too . Proud to be a Pharoah fan today , he does represent greatness !

[nijinski]

Wow, guess we are pretty much on the same page.

I neglected to add that I'm pretty much over the Bayern scenario,
so I have to note the incredible work ethic and genius of Bob Baffert
in the conditioning of AP.

Any thoughts how this effort will the Eclipse awards for Trainer
of the year?
What he accomplished this year should be rewarded with the Eclipse.

[nearco]

Hard to say as greats like Slew,Bid,Affirmed returned as 4 year olds,,,heck the Bid was carrying 130pds in gr1 races as a 4 year old

That in and off itself is meaningless though. It's all about weight conceded, and even 2yos regularly carry 130lbs+ sometimes conceding 5-10lbs to other 2yos around the world.

[cbp]

I don't see it. Where's this horse's against the grain race? Great horses can duel and hold off the likes of Keen Ice. Wiring the field, when you're lone, easy speed, and your chaser runs second, is not exactly something I'd get worked up about.

[zico20]

That in and off itself is meaningless though. It's all about weight conceded, and even 2yos regularly carry 130lbs+ sometimes conceding 5-10lbs to other 2yos around the world.

That is the problem with AP. He never conceded weight throughout this entire year. The Bid conceded weight numerous times.

[chadk66]

best horse that has ever stepped foot on a race track

[keithw84]

Curious to hear everyone's thoughts. I'll start and say Spectacular Bid

[Spalding No!]

Shared Belief

[handyman1968]

I have no doubt in my mind that AP is a great horse. Is he in the same league as past legends? I don't know...I'm not sure. I'd rate him the equal of Sea The Stars as both retired after their 3yr old campaign winning the biggest race of their short career. Legendary? Only time will tell...

[thaskalos]

Curious to hear everyone's thoughts. I'll start and say Spectacular Bid
IMO...the Pharoah is the best horse since 1996. I can't rate him higher than Cigar.

[Kash$]

I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you. Spectacular Bid would have dusted AP if he was in this race. SB ran 145.4 and 157.4 as a four year old. SB ran that 157.4 on 14 days rest. I am so happy AP won in convincing fashion and he should go down as a great race horse. However, AP never ran a time that fast. He may have if allowed to run as a four year old, but that is pure speculation, unfortunately.

Imo,Bid is a top 3 of all time..If he had won the Belmont may have been ranked one...
...He was incredible...

[nijinski]

I really don't like comparing horses today and beck when . Different breed these days . Different surfaces and steroids at one time were LEGAL.
Since its been well over 3 decades since we've seen a triple crown winner and since he"s done this and the classic as well ., he's a very special horse and a champion in my book .

[whodoyoulike]

I don't see it. Where's this horse's against the grain race? Great horses can duel and hold off the likes of Keen Ice. Wiring the field, when you're lone, easy speed, and your chaser runs second, is not exactly something I'd get worked up about.

Is this AP's fault?

Can't you just appreciate his races if not re-watch his replays?

[EMD4ME]

IMO...the Pharoah is the best horse since 1996. I can't rate him higher than Cigar.

If you were in NY right now, I'd hug you...

What next, you'll compliment Tom Durkin ;) ?

[EMD4ME]

PA,

Who would you take in a match race?

Holy Bull or AP?

EMD4ME

[RacingFan1992]

Didn't you hear? Red lost to a "Claimer".

Keen Ice was a maiden winner at Churchill Downs until he beat AP in the Travers and that is better than a claimer?

[ILovetheInner]

I think it is a struggle for those who have seen great horses in days gone by....and I have....to deal with how things tend to go in this newer game.

AP is a far better horse than I originally gave him credit for. I don't have a problem with him being called great, or coming up in conversations of the greats from days gone by. But I don't really think in the end we have a comprehensive understanding of who he is. It's not the fault of his connections. AP won the TC, had two G1 starts during the summer, and then freshened for the BCC. Not sure what else he could have done.

Still, watching this race. Odd for me. He certainly was commanding. Awesome effort. But Effinex finished clear of the rest of that "very good field." I have nothing against Effinex. Indeed, he was my get out horse for the day. I more thought it was because he would make a middle move, but whatever....a winning ticket is a winning ticket, lol But still can't fathom that he handled the rest of the field so easily. It's fine to say AP can make good horses look mediocre. But you can't say that here, for Effinex had the rest of the field sorted himself. From the turn for home, no doubt.

It would have been different of course if Beholder had moved on AP and he turned her back then Honor Code came flying and AP held him safe. But that is not what happened. Effinex was clearly second best, with the field well handled. Effin unreal. Another race that somehow didn't satiate.

So on one hand I feel fantastic that a TC winner, destined to have a short career, could go out so convincingly and deservedly on top. A very deserving TC winner indeed, who deserves his place in history. I still don't know what he beat, though. And now, I never will. So on the other hand, it all feels curiously empty.

[ultracapper]

What an amazing ending to an incredible year. I never thought I’d live to see another Triple Crown winner. So much can go wrong with these animals, and it usually does. Will probably never see another one like him again.

Triple Crown winners come in groups. Probably have 2 more in the next 5 years.

Mark this post.

[ultracapper]

AP wouldn't be ranked as high on this very thread if he'd lost the Belmont and won the Travers.

Greatness is all timing.

[Waquoit]

Any jibes or criticism of AP today is just trolling. As far as where he rates historically I cite Bum Phillips when he said, "I don't know if he's in a class by himself, but whatever class he’s in, it don’t take long to call the roll.”

[ultracapper]

And I'm not trolling.

[Bigadam119]

Of the 6 major tracks in racing. Keeneland, Churchill, Del Mar, Santa Anita, Belmont, and the Spa. AP won a G1 at 5 and finished 2nd in a G1 at the other. That is legendary. I also believe they cost him the Travers by working him to fast leading up to it, like they said in the interview before the Classic.

[v j stauffer]

I'm 56. In my life I think there "may" have been two that we're better. And I stress may.

Secretariat & Spectacular Bid

[Dark Horse]

The BC Classic didn't make or break AP. With the scratches of the speeds this was basically a stroll in the park.

I don't know how good he is, but I do know that had he lost this race he would be dangling near the bottom of many people's TC winners list. So from that perspective the BC Classic win did make him.

These kind of things are so flighty. One bad day, and every horse has one, on the wrong day and the whole picture shifts. To me it's about enjoying the moment and appreciating the horse, much more so than comparing him against others in history.

If you just had sex with a smoking hot actress (can't think of a name in today's Hollywood), would you really light up a cigarette and start wondering how she compared to Marilyn Monroe?

[Stillriledup]

Of the 6 major tracks in racing. Keeneland, Churchill, Del Mar, Santa Anita, Belmont, and the Spa. AP won a G1 at 5 and finished 2nd in a G1 at the other. That is legendary. I also believe they cost him the Travers by working him to fast leading up to it, like they said in the interview before the Classic.

But does he get a pass just because an excuse (other than losing fair and square) was invented?

I think if you want to put him up in a pantheon of top 10 all time, a fair and square loss hurts his credentials. Many other all time greats have over 10 lifetime wins as well as major wins at 4 carrying truckloads of weight, all that is a factor In how greats of all time are compared.

[Dark Horse]

The first ever Grand Slam winner. They'll be talking about that 200 years from now.

[rastajenk]

There will be an Aidan O'Brien quote circulating soon that AP was the best one he's ever seen or ever will see. I imagine he's seen some good ones over there in the old world. Could be the hyperbole of the moment, but many serious people have said similar things. Why do people need to see a gut-check race, an against the grain race, a compromised but still winning effort, or any of that stuff?

When people remember the greatness of these benchmark heroes of racing's past, what are they really remembering? Are they recalling the athletic performances of them against quality rosters of opponents time after time (which probably didn't really happen that much), or are we remembering our own emotional reactions to those events? I believe there's a difference, which makes it that much harder to make comparisons over time.

As the Keeneland feed commentators were signing off, every one of them was honored, humbled, grateful for the opportunity to be a part of something obviously very special. It was a good thing none of them had the cold, rational analytical perspective of the handicapper, the backbone of the industry, that might have caused him to say, "Yes, but..."

[thaskalos]

There will be an Aidan O'Brien quote circulating soon that AP was the best one he's ever seen or ever will see. I imagine he's seen some good ones over there in the old world. Could be the hyperbole of the moment, but many serious people have said similar things. Why do people need to see a gut-check race, an against the grain race, a compromised but still winning effort, or any of that stuff?

When people remember the greatness of these benchmark heroes of racing's past, what are they really remembering? Are they recalling the athletic performances of them against quality rosters of opponents time after time (which probably didn't really happen that much), or are we remembering our own emotional reactions to those events? I believe there's a difference, which makes it that much harder to make comparisons over time.

As the Keeneland feed commentators were signing off, every one of them was honored, humbled, grateful for the opportunity to be a part of something obviously very special. It was a good thing none of them had the cold, rational analytical perspective of the handicapper, the backbone of the industry, that might have caused him to say, "Yes, but..."

Alas...the enthusiasm of the feed commentators doesn't pay the bills.

[Spalding No!]

There will be an Aidan O'Brien quote circulating soon that AP was the best one he's ever seen or ever will see. I imagine he's seen some good ones over there in the old world. Could be the hyperbole of the moment, but many serious people have said similar things.
The same Aidan O'Brien who trains for the Coolmore operation, which has the breeding rights to American Pharoah.

That quote might have been the only reason Gleneagles even ran in the race.

[keithw84]

AP wouldn't be ranked as high on this very thread if he'd lost the Belmont and won the Travers.

Greatness is all timing.

Certainly, we have assigned arbitrary importance to some races more than others, so I don't disagree. However, the Travers and Belmont are kind of apples and oranges. Winning at 12 f shows versatility. If he would've instead won at 10 f, it would've been something he'd already done.

[Bigadam119]

Has anyone seen the BSF from the race or any of the races?

[EMD4ME]

Has anyone seen the BSF from the race or any of the races?

Just checked formulator for you, as Tom Durkin said about Jerry Bailey and Cigar in 1995.............................................. no, not yet.

[nijinski]

The first ever Grand Slam winner. They'll be talking about that 200 years from now.
They already have his name in Gold background on BCC wiki page lol. That was fast .

[Bigadam119]

Just checked formulator for you, as Tom Durkin said about Jerry Bailey and Cigar in 1995.............................................. no, not yet.

I just saw a preliminary number of 116.

[Laminarman]

I think it is a struggle for those who have seen great horses in days gone by....and I have....to deal with how things tend to go in this newer game.

AP is a far better horse than I originally gave him credit for. I don't have a problem with him being called great, or coming up in conversations of the greats from days gone by. But I don't really think in the end we have a comprehensive understanding of who he is. It's not the fault of his connections. AP won the TC, had two G1 starts during the summer, and then freshened for the BCC. Not sure what else he could have done.

Still, watching this race. Odd for me. He certainly was commanding. Awesome effort. But Effinex finished clear of the rest of that "very good field." I have nothing against Effinex. Indeed, he was my get out horse for the day. I more thought it was because he would make a middle move, but whatever....a winning ticket is a winning ticket, lol But still can't fathom that he handled the rest of the field so easily. It's fine to say AP can make good horses look mediocre. But you can't say that here, for Effinex had the rest of the field sorted himself. From the turn for home, no doubt.

It would have been different of course if Beholder had moved on AP and he turned her back then Honor Code came flying and AP held him safe. But that is not what happened. Effinex was clearly second best, with the field well handled. Effin unreal. Another race that somehow didn't satiate.

So on one hand I feel fantastic that a TC winner, destined to have a short career, could go out so convincingly and deservedly on top. A very deserving TC winner indeed, who deserves his place in history. I still don't know what he beat, though. And now, I never will. So on the other hand, it all feels curiously empty.

This is apt. I watched the race. My wife and my seven year old LOVE AP. I think that's just great. My daughter wanted me to bet $5 on Frosted because she thinks it's related to Frozen the movie. My wife then said, "Who the hell is Effinex??? Who is this horse?? He's going to beat my horse!!!" I realized then, this out of nowhere horse was making a run at the great AP and the ones I thought would press him late like Keen Ice and HC and Tonalist were nowhere to be found. I think the horse is great for the sport, I'm wondering in twenty to thirty years how he'll be looked upon. I think a little of his lore will be tempered by the fact that horses like Sea Biscuit and Secretariat were relief from troubled times (the Depression and Vietnam.) The world is different now, people are impatient and not as nostalgic. I made my kids watch it to experience history and they all thanked me afterward. That made me happy.

[Laminarman]

The first ever Grand Slam winner. They'll be talking about that 200 years from now.

200 years might be a stretch : )

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't see it. Where's this horse's against the grain race? Great horses can duel and hold off the likes of Keen Ice. Wiring the field, when you're lone, easy speed, and your chaser runs second, is not exactly something I'd get worked up about.You can't keep knocking this horse like that. Yeah, you can debate whether he belongs among the all time greats. But there is no question that this horse is something VERY SPECIAL.

You're all acting like we haven't gone through FORTY PLUS years of waiting for another horse to win the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how easy it is to LOSE the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how many seemingly great horses have lost it...even a few that looked like LOCKS to win it...

And then...to have him win the Breeders' Cup Classic like he did...he CRUSHED the track record...not only crushed the current track record (which albeit was only a year old), but he also CRUSHED the old track record of 2:02 1/5...

All this nonsense of "well, I want to see him tested and face adversity." Nonsense at this point. He's always been the kind of horse that NEGATES adversity with his running style...it's tough to get into trouble when you can run like he does, the way that he does.

CRITICS = SILENCED

[SuperPickle]

He's the best horse since the Bid. I'd still probably put Slew, Bid, Affirmed, and of course Big ahead but there's no question he's a class above Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and Sunday Silence.

For me the Travers was the moment I knew he was a different kind of horse. You could tell going into the first turn he was in trouble. On the backstretch he looked totally done. But then he just fought on and held them all off but one. For me it was the equine version of jordan's flu game. To run that well when something's wrong is incredible.

The race today, the Haskell and the Arkansas Derby were simple breath taking. He looked like a different animal.

[nijinski]

You can't keep knocking this horse like that. Yeah, you can debate whether he belongs among the all time greats. But there is no question that this horse is something VERY SPECIAL.

You're all acting like we haven't gone through FORTY PLUS years of waiting for another horse to win the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how easy it is to LOSE the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how many seemingly great horses have lost it...even a few that looked like LOCKS to win it...

And then...to have him win the Breeders' Cup Classic like he did...he CRUSHED the track record...not only crushed the current track record (which albeit was only a year old), but he also CRUSHED the old track record of 2:02 1/5...

All this nonsense of "well, I want to see him tested and face adversity." Nonsense at this point. He's always been the kind of horse that NEGATES adversity with his running style...it's tough to get into trouble when you can run like he does, the way that he does.

CRITICS = SILENCED

Great post !, :ThmbUp: to you you had confidence that he was going run a great race today and you posted this a while ago . Great insight PA!

[Stillriledup]

He's the best horse since the Bid. I'd still probably put Slew, Bid, Affirmed, and of course Big ahead but there's no question he's a class above Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and Sunday Silence.

For me the Travers was the moment I knew he was a different kind of horse. You could tell going into the first turn he was in trouble. On the backstretch he looked totally done. But then he just fought on and held them all off but one. For me it was the equine version of jordan's flu game. To run that well when something's wrong is incredible.

The race today, the Haskell and the Arkansas Derby were simple breath taking. He looked like a different animal.

He's a class above Cigar?

[Dahoss2002]

I'm 56. In my life I think there "may" have been two that we're better. And I stress may.

Secretariat & Spectacular Bid
:ThmbUp: Agreed!! Best post in this thread so far!

[thaskalos]

:ThmbUp: Agreed!! Best post in this thread so far!

The post claiming that the Pharoah might be as good as Secretariat is the best post of this entire thread? To me...it was BLASPHEMY!

[PaceAdvantage]

PA,

Who would you take in a match race?

Holy Bull or AP?

EMD4METough call. They are both speedy up front...AP would definitely have the advantage stamina-wise...but Bull was ALL HEART...

I can't make the call, honestly...anything shorter than 10 furlongs, and I'd say Holy Bull would win more than 75% of the time given he'd probably be in front and being in front is the key to winning a match race.

[thaskalos]

He's a class above Cigar?

Did he run as fast as Cigar ran? Do the speed ratings mean NOTHING in this game, all of a sudden?

[PaceAdvantage]

Did he run as fast as Cigar ran? Do the speed ratings mean NOTHING in this game, all of a sudden?He ran as fast as Cigar did when he ran today...if the preliminary 116 Beyer is correct.

Yes, Cigar ran faster than a 116 a good number of times...but a few of them were 117s...he ran a 118 once and a 121 once...those were his two fastest...

Then again, Cigar was older than AP when he ran those...and who knows what a 116 Beyer equates to in terms of back in 1995/1996...

So I'm pretty comfortable in stating that today, AP was as fast as Cigar.

[Stillriledup]

Did he run as fast as Cigar ran? Do the speed ratings mean NOTHING in this game, all of a sudden?

Speed ratings? Do you think AP has faster 'sheet' numbers than say, Ghostzapper? Or are we talking about Beyers?

[Bigadam119]

But does he get a pass just because an excuse (other than losing fair and square) was invented?

I think if you want to put him up in a pantheon of top 10 all time, a fair and square loss hurts his credentials. Many other all time greats have over 10 lifetime wins as well as major wins at 4 carrying truckloads of weight, all that is a factor In how greats of all time are compared.

It was a fair and square loss. I disagree that the loss hurts his credentials. He was off form that day (maybe because he was overworked going into it) and ran second in the Travers. When thinking about putting him as an all time great, I ask myself the question. Did we ever see AP's best race? Even today, I honestly think he could have hit another gear. Every race he was in good form he was geared down in the stretch, because no horse could come near him.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't think he was geared down today...Espinoza even said (or was it Baffert) that they let him loose at the end...it was his last race and they were going to put on a show...or something to that effect...glad they did!

[iceknight]

You can't keep knocking this horse like that. Yeah, you can debate whether he belongs among the all time greats. But there is no question that this horse is something VERY SPECIAL.

You're all acting like we haven't gone through FORTY PLUS years of waiting for another horse to win the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how easy it is to LOSE the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how many seemingly great horses have lost it...even a few that looked like LOCKS to win it...

And then...to have him win the Breeders' Cup Classic like he did...he CRUSHED the track record...not only crushed the current track record (which albeit was only a year old), but he also CRUSHED the old track record of 2:02 1/5...

All this nonsense of "well, I want to see him tested and face adversity." Nonsense at this point. He's always been the kind of horse that NEGATES adversity with his running style...it's tough to get into trouble when you can run like he does, the way that he does.

CRITICS = SILENCED Agree with you. I don't compare raw times myself.. and while I see that this record was slower than Ghostzapper, multiple hundredths slower than Skipaway and Cigar etc...

One has to be fair to AP, no one in this field could keep up with him. You can only beat the competition that exists in your time period!

I am also quite confident he would handle fields containing top horses like Skippy, Ghostzapper, Silver Charm, Roses in May, Cigar, Tiznow etc..and probably beat almost all of them except maybe Ghostzapper. Left out Holy Bull as he did not contest <s>--cut--Travers--</s>. BC Classic.

[iceknight]

Speed ratings? Do you think AP has faster 'sheet' numbers than say, Ghostzapper? Or are we talking about Beyers? Why don't we compare him to Man O' War while you are at it.. Speed nos - with all due respect to CJ, Beyer, Mr. Bris etc - are still "post mortem" numbers - they dont tell you how great horses run in actual competition.

[thaskalos]

He ran as fast as Cigar did when he ran today...if the preliminary 116 Beyer is correct.

Yes, Cigar ran faster than a 116 a good number of times...but a few of them were 117s...he ran a 118 once and a 121 once...those were his two fastest...

Then again, Cigar was older than AP when he ran those...and who knows what a 116 Beyer equates to in terms of back in 1995/1996...

So I'm pretty comfortable in stating that today, AP was as fast as Cigar.

Let's see now. Cigar had a phenomenal winning streak, while traveling widely, and posting a "good number" of higher speed figures than the Pharoah ever did...right? But if I ask you the direct question. my suspicion is that you would opine that the Pharoah should be rated higher than Cigar on the "best-ever" list.

May I know the reason(s) why?

[PaceAdvantage]

Left out Holy Bull as he did not contest Travers.He didn't? :lol:

Was only his greatest effort of all time... :faint:

[thaskalos]

Speed ratings? Do you think AP has faster 'sheet' numbers than say, Ghostzapper? Or are we talking about Beyers?

No matter whose numbers you look at...Cigar was faster than the Pharoah.

[PaceAdvantage]

No matter whose numbers you look at...Cigar was faster than the Pharoah.His 116 Beyer at 3yo at 10f says otherwise. (If indeed it is a 116 as someone reported here...I have no idea if that is accurate).

[Poindexter]

You can't keep knocking this horse like that. Yeah, you can debate whether he belongs among the all time greats. But there is no question that this horse is something VERY SPECIAL.

You're all acting like we haven't gone through FORTY PLUS years of waiting for another horse to win the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how easy it is to LOSE the Triple Crown. YOU KNOW how many seemingly great horses have lost it...even a few that looked like LOCKS to win it...

And then...to have him win the Breeders' Cup Classic like he did...he CRUSHED the track record...not only crushed the current track record (which albeit was only a year old), but he also CRUSHED the old track record of 2:02 1/5...

All this nonsense of "well, I want to see him tested and face adversity." Nonsense at this point. He's always been the kind of horse that NEGATES adversity with his running style...it's tough to get into trouble when you can run like he does, the way that he does.

CRITICS = SILENCED


No question he is very special. That being said, whether you want to call him the best every, a top 10 or top 20 of all time, we just do not have enough evidence to even fathom a guess. We know when allowed on a loose lead going soft fractions, he is unbeatable. But wouldn't the other top 30 horses of all time fit that bill. We don't know what he would have done if he was chasing or pressing Liams Map and had to deal with a strong far turn push from Beholder and Smooth Roller. We assume he would have won and probably pretty easily, but we do not know and will never know. There are 2 ways to look at this. 1) the triple crown champion demolished a very respectable breeders cup classic field and went out like a true champion. I have no argument with this. 2) The triple crown Champion in a chance to show his greatness would face a a Breeders Cup Classic field(one time only), only due to circumstances he was gifted the race because there wasn't even a hint of early speed to go with him. I have no arugment with this.

That is the whole point. No question he is very special, we just were not able to see just how special he is. What horses do unchallenged on loose leads does not determine their greatness. A simple stalking Liams Map and blowing by, or strong push by Beholder far turn and leaving here 5 lengths behind, would have been ample. But this was just too easy. Very impressive, but just too easy.

[iceknight]

He didn't? :lol:

Was only his greatest effort of all time... :faint: OOps that was a brain fart.. I was comparing all horses in past BC classic races and when I thought of Holy Bull - my brain immediately switched to the Travers and Durkin's call "But there is cause for Concern"... and my brain typed Travers instead of BCC! :bang:

[ronsmac]

He's the best horse since the Bid. I'd still probably put Slew, Bid, Affirmed, and of course Big ahead but there's no question he's a class above Cigar, Skip Away, Holy Bull and Sunday Silence.

For me the Travers was the moment I knew he was a different kind of horse. You could tell going into the first turn he was in trouble. On the backstretch he looked totally done. But then he just fought on and held them all off but one. For me it was the equine version of jordan's flu game. To run that well when something's wrong is incredible.

The race today, the Haskell and the Arkansas Derby were simple breath taking. He looked like a different animal.
No question? I'd question it, and I think Ap is a very good horse, but I'd still take Holy Bull and Skip away on their best day, but not Cigar or Sunday Silence. Just my opinion.

[thaskalos]

His 116 Beyer at 3yo at 10f says otherwise. (If indeed it is a 116 as someone reported here...I have no idea if that is accurate).

Even if the 116 was legitimate...it only occurred once. Cigar ran these types of figures with impressive regularity...and often ran even faster than AP's fastest ever race.

I don't feel that rating Cigar higher than the Pharoah is "knocking" the Pharoah, PA; I readily acknowledge that AP is a "Great Horse". But Cigar was even better.

[Stillriledup]

It was a fair and square loss. I disagree that the loss hurts his credentials. He was off form that day (maybe because he was overworked going into it) and ran second in the Travers. When thinking about putting him as an all time great, I ask myself the question. Did we ever see AP's best race? Even today, I honestly think he could have hit another gear. Every race he was in good form he was geared down in the stretch, because no horse could come near him.

It does hurt his credentials if you're trying to argue he's top 5 or 10 all time. He has less than 10 lifetime wins, he only beat Older horses once, most of his wins were at equal weights. The majority of his Beyer figs are significantly lower than many all timers, his 'sheet' numbers are slower too, so if you want to place him ahead of horses who won many more lifetime starts than AP, has win streaks longer than AP has had races, beat older more than once, won a race out of the country (DWC), etc you have to come up with some other reason why he's better. I'm certainly willing to listen to any argument, but when you are arguing top 5 all time, that argument better be pretty darn good.

[PaceAdvantage]

Even if the 116 was legitimate...it only occurred once. Cigar ran these types of figures with impressive regularity...and often ran even faster than AP's fastest ever race.

I don't feel that rating Cigar higher than the Pharoah is "knocking" the Pharoah, PA; I readily acknowledge that AP is a "Great Horse". But Cigar was even better.OK, but you have to be objective when saying that, and I thought I was. I pointed out in detail the number of times Cigar ran faster than a 116. He did it exactly 6 times: 121, 117, 118, 117, 117, 117

He did that at ages 5 and 6.

So again, if the 116 is legit, I have no problem stating AP is as fast as Cigar. Yes, he only did it once, but he did it at 3yo at the classic distance.

Cigars Beyers at 10f are (in chronological order): 116, 118, 111, 117, 111, 115, 115

You can see for yourself: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf

[thaskalos]

OK, but you have to be objective when saying that, and I thought I was. I pointed out in detail the number of times Cigar ran faster than a 116. He did it exactly 6 times: 121, 117, 118, 117, 117, 117

He did that at ages 5 and 6.

So again, if the 116 is legit, I have no problem stating AP is as fast as Cigar. Yes, he only did it once, but he did it at 3yo at the classic distance.

Cigars Beyers at 10f are (in chronological order): 116, 118, 111, 117, 111, 115, 115

You can see for yourself: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf

Does the Pharoah deserve to be rated higher than Cigar on the "best-ever" list?

[Bigadam119]

136 was the timeform rating officially.

[Stillriledup]

Does the Pharoah deserve to be rated higher than Cigar on the "best-ever" list?

uuAqzle-sBs

Cigar BCC 20 years ago.

[SuperPickle]

OK, but you have to be objective when saying that, and I thought I was. I pointed out in detail the number of times Cigar ran faster than a 116. He did it exactly 6 times: 121, 117, 118, 117, 117, 117

He did that at ages 5 and 6.

So again, if the 116 is legit, I have no problem stating AP is as fast as Cigar. Yes, he only did it once, but he did it at 3yo at the classic distance.

Cigars Beyers at 10f are (in chronological order): 116, 118, 111, 117, 111, 115, 115

You can see for yourself: https://www1.drf.com/hcponline/samples/269.pdf


Oh god we've stumbled into the grand daddy of awful debates. The "using Beyers across different time periods to evaluate horses against other horses."

Now CJ has address this across about 10,000 threads that the weak spot on Beyers is they make no sense when you compare them across different decades. Let's use the wikipedia entry as an example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyer_Speed_Figure

Now Formal Gold broke 124 thee times. Does anyone think he's better than AP or Cigar? Probably not.

Beyers a decent measuring stick when measuring horses in a small time frame at a similar distance. Once you go beyond the scope your data simply isn't credible.

Beyer himself has said the fastest figures ever run were probably 150's run by Count Fleet. Count Fleet was one of the greatest horses ever but I don't think he was 35 Beyer points or 10-15 lengths better than AP.

What makes AP special is he put up a figure today we have not seen in a while. Cigar's figures were achieved at a time when 110+ Beyers were almost a monthly occurrence.

Btw... Andy has never really given a decent reason why Beyers are slowing down.

[thaskalos]

Oh god we've stumbled into the grand daddy of awful debates. The "using Beyers across different time periods to evaluate horses against other horses."

Now CJ has address this across about 10,000 threads that the weak spot on Beyers is they make no sense when you compare them across different decades. Let's use the wikipedia entry as an example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyer_Speed_Figure

Now Formal Gold broke 124 thee times. Does anyone think he's better than AP or Cigar? Probably not.

Beyers a decent measuring stick when measuring horses in a small time frame at a similar distance. Once you go beyond the scope your data simply isn't credible.

Beyer himself has said the fastest figures ever run were probably 150's run by Count Fleet. Count Fleet was one of the greatest horses ever but I don't think he was 35 Beyer points or 10-15 lengths better than AP.

What makes AP special is he put up a figure today we have not seen in a while. Cigar's figures were achieved at a time when 110+ Beyers were almost a monthly occurrence.

Btw... Andy has never really given a decent reason why Beyers are slowing down.

I am confident that Beyer credited SECRETARIAT with the highest figure ever recorded...which he estimated to be in the mid-130s range.

[PaceAdvantage]

And BTW, a 116 Beyer is still shitty for the kind of race AP ran today.

A race like that back in the day? One of the fastest 10f times in recent memory at a non-SoCal track?

Something like that would have gotten a 125 back in the day...easily...

Is anybody claiming the track was juiced today? Was the track playing super-fast?

116 seems very light.

[thaskalos]

And BTW, a 116 Beyer is still shitty for the kind of race AP ran today.

A race like that back in the day? One of the fastest 10f times in recent memory at a non-SoCal track?

Something like that would have gotten a 125 back in the day...easily...

Is anybody claiming the track was juiced today? Was the track playing super-fast?

116 seems very light.

Is Andy Beyer getting sloppy?

[sharkie187]

Wish he could run in the Dubai World Cup, but I know theres too much money involved for his breeding to take that chance to send him over to Dubai

[SuperPickle]

I am confident that Beyer credited SECRETARIAT with the highest figure ever recorded...which he estimated to be in the mid-130s range.

Click the link in my last post and be prepared to lose your confidence.

[Stillriledup]

Wish he could run in the Dubai World Cup, but I know theres too much money involved for his breeding to take that chance to send him over to Dubai

That would be incredible if they raced him as a 4yo. Hats off to the connections for racing him a few times after the TC, they could have retired him right then and there.

[thaskalos]

Click the link in my last post and be prepared to lose your confidence.
I don't trust Wikipedia in this instance. I would like to see Beyer's own declaration. :)

[nijinski]

Wish he could run in the Dubai World Cup, but I know theres too much money involved for his breeding to take that chance to send him over to Dubai
Cigars infertlity insurance was a record high , interesting isn't it .

[tucker6]

I'm 56. In my life I think there "may" have been two that we're better. And I stress may.

Secretariat & Spectacular Bid
On his best day against their best days, AP doesn't compare to those two. I am a big AP fan, but I just don't drink as much koolaid as some do.

[v j stauffer]

On his best day against their best days, AP doesn't compare to those two. I am a big AP fan, but I just don't drink as much koolaid as some do.

Isn't the first two sentences of your post comparing them?

[rastajenk]

Oh god we've stumbled into the grand daddy of awful debates. The "using Beyers across different time periods to evaluate horses against other horses."It took six hours to get there! I thought it would be much quicker than that. :p

[rastajenk]

Alas...the enthusiasm of the feed commentators doesn't pay the bills.I guess that means something profound to you, but it means nothing to me.

[tucker6]

Isn't the first two sentences of your post comparing them?
No, just the first sentence.

[stuball]

BUCKPASSER

[thaskalos]

I guess that means something profound to you, but it means nothing to me.
My friend...you seem bothered by the horseplayer's "analytical perspective"...but our game is run solely because of the wagered dollar. And the wagered dollar wouldn't be there without the discriminating player's "analytical perspective". Cut the "backbone of the industry" a little slack, please...and learn to take the good with the bad.

Don't get mad at ME because your eloquent post was otherwise ignored. I NOTICED it. :)

[rgustafson]

No matter whose numbers you look at...Cigar was faster than the Pharoah.

Evidently Andy Beyer is finally convinced about American Pharoah's greatness. Officially a 120 (according to derbytrail website) for the Breeders Cup Classic. I think that would match up with Cigar's figures pretty well.

[zico20]

I'm 56. In my life I think there "may" have been two that we're better. And I stress may.

Secretariat & Spectacular Bid

I just don't see how you can rate AP ahead of Slew and Affirmed. Those two proved their greatness at 4. Slew defeated Affirmed in a remarkable 145.4 off of an 11 days rest then came back in 14 days and ran 200 flat winning the Woodward. One can clearly make the case that AP can't do that based on losing the Travers to a horse of Keen Ice ability. Also, how does anyone know if AP would not have regressed as a four year old like Bayern did or others. I don't think he would have but you never know.

AP just hasn't proven he belongs with the all time greats.

[thaskalos]

Evidently Andy Beyer is finally convinced about American Pharoah's greatness. Officially a 120 (according to derbytrail website) for the Breeders Cup Classic. I think that would match up with Cigar's figures pretty well.
I doubt that Beyer's intention was to discriminate against the Pharoah, when he assigned his prior figures to him; the speed figure-maker goes strictly by the data that he sees. When the "brilliance" is in full display...then the noticeable speed figure is there as well.

I have no problem saying that the Pharoah is as great a horse as Cigar was. It's when he is placed at the top of the "best-ever" chart that I revolt. This is a sport with the richest of histories...and some LEGENDARY horses have graced us with their presence through the years. These spectacular animals may now be a distant memory...but they occupy a special place in the heart. And they need to be acknowledged from time to time...IMO.

[NY BRED]

Ugh, my post was simply to celebrate this incredible thoroughbred
and , for the record , all of my previous posts echoed this opinion.

The speed or pace #'s being tossed about have zero meaning
as to who the Best horse is now or ever.

Simply getting the horse to the races and winning is a difficult task
regardless of breeding/owner/trainer.

Winning the Triple Crown after all these years stamps this thought.
Winning the Breeders Cup in tandem with the Triple Crown now sets the standard for T Breds, Owners, and Breeders to duplicate, which in turn
may create a better racing product.

On any given day horses can run gigantic #'s based upon the
pace scenario, wind, surface etc, and then regress.

AP has met all those factors and proven his unique abilities.

If there is a negative to this story, inmho running in the
Haskell/Travers was a big mistake.

Sometimes the bounce is "the pause that refreshes" per Jerry Brown.

That thought was demonstrated on BC Day.

[zico20]

Ugh, my post was simply to celebrate this incredible thoroughbred
and , for the record , all of my previous posts echoed this opinion.

The speed or pace #'s being tossed about have zero meaning
as to who the Best horse is now or ever.

Simply getting the horse to the races and winning is a difficult task
regardless of breeding/owner/trainer.

Winning the Triple Crown after all these years stamps this thought.
Winning the Breeders Cup in tandem with the Triple Crown now sets the standard for T Breds, Owners, and Breeders to duplicate, which in turn
may create a better racing product.

On any given day horses can run gigantic #'s based upon the
pace scenario, wind, surface etc, and then regress.

AP has met all those factors and proven his unique abilities.

If there is a negative to this story, inmho running in the
Haskell/Travers was a big mistake.

Sometimes the bounce is "the pause that refreshes" per Jerry Brown.

That thought was demonstrated on BC Day.

That was not a mistake. The truly ELITE horses can easily come back in three weeks or shorter and dominate. AP could not do it, unfortunately. Point Given did it, and they had the same trainer, so it is easily attainable.

[EMD4ME]

And BTW, a 116 Beyer is still shitty for the kind of race AP ran today.

A race like that back in the day? One of the fastest 10f times in recent memory at a non-SoCal track?

Something like that would have gotten a 125 back in the day...easily...

Is anybody claiming the track was juiced today? Was the track playing super-fast?

116 seems very light.

Let's not go overboard.....

He ran 1 race on a track that carried well to speed as a lone F to get his 120.

According to many on here, a three wide trip around all turns is a tough trip. That was Cigar's trip in most of his races. He ran 117's with a hand ride past horses while really wide.

Who can forget his mana a mano challenge in Dubai where soul of the matter headed him and he came back like a bull (no pun intended).

Those are much more earned figs vs. being a lone F on a speed track with 1/3 of the field defecting for various reasons ;)

AP set the same pace that the legendary Riker did an hour earlier. He had a soft set up as lone F to "earn his 120".

Not super legendary stuff we're talking here. Nice race, very good race, somewhat impressive race. All time best race? Absolutely not.

[bcgreg]

We have our favorites from the past. We have gone through 37 years without a Triple Crown Winner. We now have a Triple Crown Winner and a Classic winner!

FACT: American Pharoah accomplished what few have done in our sport.

FACT: American Pharoah became a cultural icon to thousands of racing fans.

FACT: American Pharoah was great for our sport.

Whether we agree or not on his greatness, or his placing among the greats, he has earned the right to be compared to the greats of the past, and those in the future will now be compared to him.

This is all good stuff, ladies and gentlemen. Watch one of the greats in our sport, once again:

http://www.nbcsports.com/video/triple-crown-winner-american-pharoah-gallops-win

[cj]

Let's not go overboard.....

He ran 1 race on a track that carried well to speed as a lone F to get his 120.

According to many on here, a three wide trip around all turns is a tough trip. That was Cigar's trip in most of his races. He ran 117's with a hand ride past horses while really wide.

Who can forget his mana a mano challenge in Dubai where soul of the matter headed him and he came back like a bull (no pun intended).

Those are much more earned figs vs. being a lone F on a speed track with 1/3 of the field defecting for various reasons ;)

AP set the same pace that the legendary Riker did an hour earlier. He had a soft set up as lone F to "earn his 120".

Not super legendary stuff we're talking here. Nice race, very good race, somewhat impressive race. All time best race? Absolutely not.

Let's put this in perspective. Before yesterday, Beyer had ALL these horses faster than American Pharoah this year:

Beholder
Liam's Map
Honor Code
Constitution
Shared Belief
Smooth Roller
Lea
Materiality
Souper Lucky
Tonalist

These were tied with American Pharoah's best:

Commissioner
Race Day
Sr. Quisqueyano

...and this is the guy we want to use as the benchmark for judging this horse historically? He was dead wrong about him all year and finally, when he is retiring, he basically admits it with one good number.

That is comical. Souper Luck? Tonalist? Materiality? Constitiution? Honor Code? Sr. Quisqueyano? I can't stop laughing.

Almost as funny is you saying Keeneland was a speed track yesterday.

[EMD4ME]

Let's put this in perspective. Before yesterday, Beyer had ALL these horses faster than American Pharoah this year:

Beholder
Liam's Map
Honor Code
Constitution
Shared Belief
Smooth Roller
Lea
Materiality
Souper Lucky
Tonalist

These were tied with American Pharoah's best:

Commissioner
Race Day
Sr. Quisqueyano

...and this is the guy we want to use as the benchmark for judging this horse historically? He was dead wrong about him all year and finally, when he is retiring, he basically admits it with one good number.

That is comical. Souper Luck? Tonalist? Materiality? Constitiution? Honor Code? Sr. Quisqueyano? I can't stop laughing.

Almost as funny is you saying Keeneland was a speed track yesterday.

Let's be clear. I'm not saying it was a speed biased track. I am saying it was a track that was conducive TO speed. Meaning if you were lone speed as Songbird and AP were, it didn't hurt you and it in fact allowed you to carry it.

Am I wrong?

Beyer's numbers aren't performance numbers. They are speed figures. You of all people know the difference.

AP didn't run 1 race all year that was awesome from a speed figure perspective, except for the Haskell.

Am I wrong on that one as well? I'd be happy to debate it as adults.

Please don't blame the facts for delivering the black and white message in terms of pure speed figures.

His Derby was slow.

His Preakess was unmeasureable but not fast.

His Belmont was a half a second faster than Coach Inge's stressful 12 F run.

His Travers wasn't fast.

What am I missing? Where is Beyer's, according to you, bias towards AP?

Where did Beyer miss giving AP a 120, again from a speed figure perspective and show his bias against the horse?

[cj]

Let's be clear. I'm not saying it was a speed biased track. I am saying it was a track that was conducive TO speed. Meaning if you were lone speed as Songbird and AP were, it didn't hurt you and it in fact allowed you to carry it.

Am I wrong?

Beyer's numbers aren't performance numbers. They are speed figures. You of all people know the difference.

AP didn't run 1 race all year that was awesome from a speed figure perspective, except for the Haskell.

Am I wrong on that one as well? I'd be happy to debate it as adults.

Please don't blame the facts for delivering the black and white message in terms of pure speed figures.

His Derby was slow.

His Preakess was unmeasureable but not fast.

His Belmont was a half a second faster than Coach Inge's stressful 12 F run.

His Travers wasn't fast.

What am I missing? Where is Beyer's, according to you, bias towards AP?

Where did Beyer miss giving AP a 120, again from a speed figure perspective and show his bias against the horse?

I had American Pharoah fast all year. I disagree. If you want to believe all the horses I listed were as fast or faster than American Pharoah, there isn't much I can say other than I find it preposterous. Yes, my figures account for pace, but when you get to 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 and 1 1/2, it is minimal.

I'll say this, if you used Beyer you were probably betting against him often. If you used my numbers, no way. No offense, but you saying a race was slow means nothing to me. Saying a race was unmeasurable but not fast...what does that even mean? I do this for a living and I put in long days doing it. It paid off big time in the Breeder's Cup. The PPs for the whole weekend will be posted for all to see soon.

As has been noted in this thread already, historical comparisons of Beyer figures are laughable at this point. Cigar ran 120 when a 110 was an allowance race winner.

[EMD4ME]

I gave him all his credit. He earned my respect yesterday.

However, to me his win still has an asterisk. (in terms of how great he is all time).

Does anyone here really believe he would have ran the same monstrous race if Liam's Map lead the field into the clubhouse turn AND AP had Beholder on his plank AND throw in another variable....Smooth Roller was somewhere else in the mix?

Having those 3 horses in there would have spread out the field more. Horses like Frosted, Effinex (the babysitter), Tonalist, Honor Code would have had completely different trips.

I am still disgusted that the race of the decade turned into a shill of it's billing.

I'm just saying people shouldn't go overboard.

Not AP's fault. He did his job and did what he's supposed to do. Circumstances, however, have caused some cause for pause before annointing him the best ever or even the best of the last 10 years.

Sadly, those questions will never be answered and this debate can go on till we see eachother in another life.

[thaskalos]

I had American Pharoah fast all year. I disagree. If you want to believe all the horses I listed were as fast or faster than American Pharoah, there isn't much I can say other than I find it preposterous. Yes, my figures account for pace, but when you get to 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 and 1 1/2, it is minimal.

I'll say this, if you used Beyer you were probably betting against him often. If you used my numbers, no way. No offense, but you saying a race was slow means nothing to me. Saying a race was unmeasurable but not fast...what does that even mean? I do this for a living and I put in long days doing it. It paid off big time in the Breeder's Cup. The PPs for the whole weekend will be posted for all to see soon.

As has been noted in this thread already, historical comparisons of Beyer figures are laughable at this point. Cigar ran 120 when a 110 was an allowance race winner.

OK...you are the BEST, and Beyer is a bum. Happy now? :)

[tucker6]

Let's be clear. I'm not saying it was a speed biased track. I am saying it was a track that was conducive TO speed. Meaning if you were lone speed as Songbird and AP were, it didn't hurt you and it in fact allowed you to carry it.

Am I wrong?

Beyer's numbers aren't performance numbers. They are speed figures. You of all people know the difference.

AP didn't run 1 race all year that was awesome from a speed figure perspective, except for the Haskell.

Am I wrong on that one as well? I'd be happy to debate it as adults.

Please don't blame the facts for delivering the black and white message in terms of pure speed figures.

His Derby was slow.

His Preakess was unmeasureable but not fast.

His Belmont was a half a second faster than Coach Inge's stressful 12 F run.

His Travers wasn't fast.

What am I missing? Where is Beyer's, according to you, bias towards AP?

Where did Beyer miss giving AP a 120, again from a speed figure perspective and show his bias against the horse?
you are being obtuse. The point is that Beyer slow played his rating of AP all year until the final race. I personally don't believe it was intentional. I just think Beyer numbers have changed over the years. I think if you line fit AP's numbers from the major rating services prior to the BCC, I bet you'd see that the BCC fits in nicely to past performances from all the services but the Beyer.

[EMD4ME]

I had American Pharoah fast all year. I disagree. If you want to believe all the horses I listed were as fast or faster than American Pharoah, there isn't much I can say other than I find it preposterous. Yes, my figures account for pace, but when you get to 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 and 1 1/2, it is minimal.

I'll say this, if you used Beyer you were probably betting against him often. If you used my numbers, no way. No offense, but you saying a race was slow means nothing to me. Saying a race was unmeasurable but not fast...what does that even mean? I do this for a living and I put in long days doing it. It paid off big time in the Breeder's Cup. The PPs for the whole weekend will be posted for all to see soon.

As has been noted in this thread already, historical comparisons of Beyer figures are laughable at this point. Cigar ran 120 when a 110 was an allowance race winner.

That is why I keep repeating myself....You brought up Beyer Figures, not me. Beyer figures are speed figures CJ. If we discussed performance figures, we'd be having a different conversation.

I am not saying all those horses are better or faster than AP. I am saying that from a SPEED FIGURE perspective, many of them did run faster (again from a speed figure perspective, not a performance figure perspective). It's black and white. You can't really argue a speed figure.

Race 1: 110 1/5 102 Beyer
Race 7: 110 2/5 100 Beyer

Assuming a fair and equal track for both.

I am not a speed figure guy. I am a performance figure guy, just like you. So I am not saying those horses were better. We're on the same page on that.

But to say, Beyer was biased and thought other horses were faster is untrue. He purely grades on final time, factoring in changes in the track.

Again, not his fault AP never ran faster than those horses.

As far as the Preakness, yes it was unmeasurable. There was a hurricane before the race. How can you properely assess a variant when that was the next to last race of the day?

[EMD4ME]

Now, from a Beyer Shrinkage perspective, you and I are totally on the same page. They have shrunk.

[EMD4ME]

you are being obtuse. The point is that Beyer slow played his rating of AP all year until the final race. I personally don't believe it was intentional. I just think Beyer numbers have changed over the years. I think if you line fit AP's numbers from the major rating services prior to the BCC, I bet you'd see that the BCC fits in nicely to past performances from all the services but the Beyer.

Please provide 1 example this year, where the Beyer should have been higher please.

Just 1. If I missed it, I'll apologize.

You obviously can quote 1 quickly as I'm sure you've done your work before making a comment like this.

[cj]

OK...you are the BEST, and Beyer is a bum. Happy now? :)


Nope, I prefer a good debate. But if people are going to pretend that Beyer figures are the be all and end all I'm going to state what I think. Easier to make flippant comments like above than to defend a weak position I guess.

My figures aren't perfect either I'm sure, for the record. If they were I'd be fully retired by now.

[EMD4ME]

Derby:

231 471 1111 1362 203 105 BEYER

32 minutes later

3 YEAR OLD ALW N1X

24 48 1122 1371 1434

4/5 slower to the mile. Last 1/16 in 6.64 for drawing away winner finishing well. Assume an extended last 3/16 in a conservative 20.40, final projected time of 204 1/5.

6 lenghts slower than Derby. At 10F 1 length equals 1.6. 6 X 1.6 is 9.6. Round that up to a 10 point difference.

Those 3 year olds in the N1X received a 90. AP should have received a 100. He was given a 105 Beyer.

If anything the Beyer was too high.

Can I be more factual in this discussion?

Oh by the way, those 3 year N1X horses, validated the number as the winner ran a 90 in his next start and the runner up ran an 80. (runner up was beaten 6 in that 5/2/15 race).

[cj]

That is why I keep repeating myself....You brought up Beyer Figures, not me. Beyer figures are speed figures CJ. If we discussed performance figures, we'd be having a different conversation.

I am not saying all those horses are better or faster than AP. I am saying that from a SPEED FIGURE perspective, many of them did run faster (again from a speed figure perspective, not a performance figure perspective). It's black and white. You can't really argue a speed figure.

Race 1: 110 1/5 102 Beyer
Race 7: 110 2/5 100 Beyer

Assuming a fair and equal track for both.

I am not a speed figure guy. I am a performance figure guy, just like you. So I am not saying those horses were better. We're on the same page on that.

But to say, Beyer was biased and thought other horses were faster is untrue. He purely grades on final time, factoring in changes in the track.

Again, not his fault AP never ran faster than those horses.

As far as the Preakness, yes it was unmeasurable. There was a hurricane before the race. How can you properely assess a variant when that was the next to last race of the day?

I brought them up? They have turned into the topic of the thread long before I joined.

I never said Beyer was biased. I said he was wrong about this horse all year. You clearly are not a speed figures guy if you think they are black and white like you posted here. I'm sure I've seen you post you are aware of the differing variants on the same day and that individual races get broken out all the time. Am I wrong? There is plenty of subjectivity in his, mine, TG, Rags, and others.

The Preakness can definitely be considered questionable. You said, however, it was unmeasurable but not fast. That is a total contradiction. If it is unmeasurable how do you know it is not fast? Your anti-Pharoah bias shined through loud and clear right there.

[EMD4ME]

Nope, I prefer a good debate. But if people are going to pretend that Beyer figures are the be all and end all I'm going to state what I think. Easier to make flippant comments like above than to defend a weak position I guess.

My figures aren't perfect either I'm sure, for the record. If they were I'd be fully retired by now.

CJ, I love your work. TFUS is much better than Beyer. Not going to argue that. With that said. You brought up Beyer Figures, not me......

So, I am debating them as well. Please give my recent posts thought.

I'm wrong a lot too. We deal in a gray game sometimes (with possible biases, run ups, unique pace situations, etc.) but I do not see where he turned a 120 performance & made the number smaller because he has a bias against this horse or this 3 year old crop.

I love to learn. Please help me see where he did that.

[PhantomOnTour]

Put me in the camp of the few in this thread who don't think Pharoah deserves a seat alongside Secretariat and Spectacular Bid...NO WAY.

I know I'm gonna come across as a hater or whatever...but what front running Classic winner would have faltered with the race dynamic of this years' edition....Ghostzapper? Fort Larned? Bayern?
I think they all would have won.

[cj]

Derby:

231 471 1111 1362 203 105 BEYER

32 minutes later

3 YEAR OLD ALW N1X

24 48 1122 1371 1434

4/5 slower to the mile. Last 1/16 in 6.64 for drawing away winner finishing well. Assume an extended last 3/16 in a conservative 20.40, final projected time of 204 1/5.

6 lenghts slower than Derby. At 10F 1 length equals 1.6. 6 X 1.6 is 9.6. Round that up to a 10 point difference.

Those 3 year olds in the N1X received a 90. AP should have received a 100. He was given a 105 Beyer.

If anything the Beyer was too high.

Can I be more factual in this discussion?

Oh by the way, those 3 year N1X horses, validated the number as the winner ran a 90 in his next start and the runner up ran an 80. (runner up was beaten 6 in that 5/2/15 race).

This is kindergarten level stuff like when you take Programming 101 and write your first "Hello World" program. Sorry, but that is truth.

[EMD4ME]

I brought them up? They have turned into the topic of the thread long before I joined.

I never said Beyer was biased. I said he was wrong about this horse all year. You clearly are not a speed figures guy if you think they are black and white like you posted here. I'm sure I've seen you post you are aware of the differing variants on the same day and that individual races get broken out all the time. Am I wrong? There is plenty of subjectivity in his, mine, TG, Rags, and others.

The Preakness can definitely be considered questionable. You said, however, it was unmeasurable but not fast. That is a total contradiction. If it is unmeasurable how do you know it is not fast? Your anti-Pharoah bias shined through loud and clear right there.

It was unmeasurable but any horse coming home in 20.72 (yes it looked to be a VERY good pace) can not be running a super fast race. Projected last quarter in 27.70.

Especially when 30 minutes later, 3 UP N1X horses came home in 26.58

[EMD4ME]

The only race that AP ran a completely FAST race from start to finish was the Haskell and he did it in a hand ride, shut down from the 3/16. That was amazing......Awesome if you ask me.

Every other race had chinks.

Derby....SLOW last 1/4. Meadowlands harness horse was passing him in the lane.

Preakness. Same thing. Yonkers pacer went by in the lane.

Belmont-VERY GOOD. Mark me a perfectionist but not being wowed when a lone F runs consistent furlongs throughout.

Haskell-BEST RACE OF HIS LIFE, NICE.

Travers-Couldn't run a complete a race. Again showed when tested. Albeit a minus rail, mid race challenge, he is now SUPERHORSE that can overcome.

BCC-lone speed on soft fractions. Didn't run fast early AND fast late.

[cj]

CJ, I love your work. TFUS is much better than Beyer. Not going to argue that. With that said. You brought up Beyer Figures, not me......

So, I am debating them as well. Please give my recent posts thought.

I'm wrong a lot too. We deal in a gray game sometimes (with possible biases, run ups, unique pace situations, etc.) but I do not see where he turned a 120 performance & made the number smaller because he has a bias against this horse or this 3 year old crop.

I love to learn. Please help me see where he did that.

I quoted your tweet in my first reply and it mentioned the 120 in the first sentence. So there was a Beyer element. You are correct though, most of the Beyer talk came from others, so I apologize for that. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post in my reply.

[EMD4ME]

I say all this not because I don't like him. He won my respect for this generation.


I say all this because it insults me and more importantly the true legendary horses of yesteryear that they are being ignored when being compared to AP.

[EMD4ME]

I quoted your tweet in my first reply and it mentioned the 120 in the first sentence. So there was a Beyer element. You are correct though, most of the Beyer talk came from others, so I apologize for that. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post in my reply.

Now I'm thoroughly confused buddy. I don't have Twitter. Never used Twitter. :blush:

[Rex Phinney]

For me the "all time great" chatter is a bit over the top. The horse accomplished some great things no doubt about it. I will always see him as a horse who had some of the best racing luck I can remember.

Liam's Map going in the mile was clearly good racing luck for AP as was Beholder scratching. I'm thinking that made for the smallest field in the classic since 1997...

After Firing Line and Dortmund were washed away in the flood of Pimlico and turned out, AP primary speed competition was gone. Good news for AP as he went to Belmont.

This sort of "everything falling into place" seemed to follow the horse all year. I'm not knocking or downplaying his accomplishments. Just pointing out that racing luck carries a lot of weight, I'll keep that in mind when comparing AP to horses like Secretariat, Cigar and others.

[cj]

I say all this not because I don't like him. He won my respect for this generation.


I say all this because it insults me and more importantly the true legendary horses of yesteryear that they are being ignored when being compared to AP.

This is how it goes in all sports. People were comparing Mike Tyson to Joe Louis. Aaron Rogers to Johnny Unitas. Eric Dickerson to Jim Brown. There is no right or wrong answer IMO. Nobody really knows. But to constantly denigrate the new shooters historically does absolutely nothing positive for the sport.

I learned my lesson with Zenyatta. She was a fabulous horse. I hated that she wasn't challenged by her connections much and I let that bug me, but she eventually proved at 6 she was a great mare and did so in defeat. People were trotting out long lists of better mares from the past that were better. Were they? Who knows? But there is nothing wrong with enjoying the here and now. Live and learn.

[cj]

Now I'm thoroughly confused buddy. I don't have Twitter. Never used Twitter. :blush:

Tweet was wrong word, post.

[thaskalos]

Nope, I prefer a good debate. But if people are going to pretend that Beyer figures are the be all and end all I'm going to state what I think. Easier to make flippant comments like above than to defend a weak position I guess.

My figures aren't perfect either I'm sure, for the record. If they were I'd be fully retired by now.

OK...I'll debate with you on this.

You are getting a little carried away here, IMO. It wasn't only "Beyer" who had underestimated the prior races of the Pharoah. Several other renowned speed-figure makers had been rather unimpressed with the Pharoah too...as far as "all-world" comparisons are concerned. Now...if you want to declare yourself as the "King of the Figure Makers"...then, you are free to do so...and you won't get too big of an argument out of me on the topic. You obviously know what you are doing...and you deserve the accolades that you get.

But you are being a tad unfair to Beyer...because it wasn't HE who considers his figures to be the "be-all and end-all". He has stated repeatedly that his figures aren't "performance ratings", and that, as they stand...they can only provide a PIECE to the puzzle that is horse racing. To his ever-lasting credit...Beyer has even gone to the lengths of saying that the overreliance on his speed figures can only lead to the poorhouse.

You are also being a little unfair to us American Pharoah "critics" too, IMO...because we didn't just isolate on the Beyer figures -- as you claimed -- in our "criticism" of this latest "Superhorse". We also pointed out the lackluster competition that he ran against. You might indeed think that he beat a stellar field in yesterday's Classic, and you have a RIGHT to your opinion...but we ALSO have the right to hold an opinion, even if this opinion is different than your own. And that shouldn't automatically mean that we are wrong.

You are not the only "serious" practitioner of this game, CJ...nor are you the only one who "does this for a living". There is a SUBJECTIVE side to what we do...and we can't all be expected to agree on every single issue that comes down the pike. Disagreeing does not necessarily mean that one is "right" and that the other is "wrong". In our game...the "facts" are few...and all the rest is mere "opinion". You may think that the Pharoah has proven that he is as good as Secretariat was...and that's fine. But I think that he is no better than Cigar...and I don't believe that my opinion is any worse than yours is.

[cj]

For me the "all time great" chatter is a bit over the top. The horse accomplished some great things no doubt about it. I will always see him as a horse who had some of the best racing luck I can remember.

Liam's Map going in the mile was clearly good racing luck for AP as was Beholder scratching. I'm thinking that made for the smallest field in the classic since 1997...

After Firing Line and Dortmund were washed away in the flood of Pimlico and turned out, AP primary speed competition was gone. Good news for AP as he went to Belmont.

This sort of "everything falling into place" seemed to follow the horse all year. I'm not knocking or downplaying his accomplishments. Just pointing out that racing luck carries a lot of weight, I'll keep that in mind when comparing AP to horses like Secretariat, Cigar and others.

If there was internet in the 70s, there is a very good chance all of these things would have been said about the horses of that decade as well. But horse racing records aren't very good and people's memories become selective 40 years later.

[EMD4ME]

This is kindergarten level stuff like when you take Programming 101 and write your first "Hello World" program. Sorry, but that is truth.

I don't take that as an insult. That is how Beyers are created and again I'm not the one who brought them up. This thread is where they came from, my apologies as I thought you brought them up.

I only referenced the attached as I am answering the people who say Beyer lowballed his numbers all year.

[cj]

OK...I'll debate with you on this.

You are getting a little carried away here, IMO. It wasn't only "Beyer" who had underestimated the prior races of the Pharoah. Several other renowned speed-figure makers had been rather unimpressed with the Pharoah too...as far as "all-world" comparisons are concerned. Now...if you want to declare yourself as the "King of the Figure Makers"...then, you are free to do so...and you won't get too big of an argument out of me on the topic. You obviously know what you are doing...and you deserve the accolades that you get.

But you are being a tad unfair to Beyer...because it wasn't HE who considers his figures to be the "be-all and end-all". He has stated repeatedly that his figures aren't "performance ratings", and that, as they stand...they can only provide a PIECE to the puzzle that is horse racing. To his ever-lasting credit...Beyer has even gone to the lengths of saying that the overreliance on his speed figures can only lead to the poorhouse.

You are also being a little unfair to us American Pharoah "critics" too, IMO...because we didn't just isolate on the Beyer figures -- as you claimed -- in our "criticism" of this latest "Superhorse". We also pointed out the lackluster competition that he ran against. You might indeed think that he beat a stellar field in yesterday's Classic, and you have a RIGHT to your opinion...but we ALSO have the right to hold an opinion, even if this opinion is different than your own. And that shouldn't automatically mean that we are wrong.

You are not the only "serious" practitioner of this game, CJ...nor are you the only one who "does this for a living". There is a SUBJECTIVE side to what we do...and we can't all be expected to agree on every single issue that comes down the pike. Disagreeing does not necessarily mean that one is "right" and that the other is "wrong". In our game...the "facts" are few...and all the rest is mere "opinion". You may think that the Pharoah has proven that he is as good as Secretariat was...and that's fine. But I think that he is no better than Cigar...and I don't believe that my opinion is any worse than yours is.

Who were the other speed figure makers that had him slow? I honestly don't know. I really don't pay any attention to others. I don't even look at Beyer figures unless someone quotes them here or on the web somewhere.

I agree with Beyer about speed figures...his, mine, and anyone else's. If you bet every race based on speed figures you'll lose, guaranteed. I just don't understand the constant historical comparisons. They are not only faulty, they are downright bad. The scale has shrunk. Everybody knows it. Yet it doesn't stop some people from denigrating horses of today based on them.

As far as the comparisons, I was the first to respond in this thread if memory serves. I don't think my opinion was much different than what you are saying. I didn't put him higher than those you mention. But I think he could compete with the greats. I certainly respect your opinion on these things. If I didn't I wouldn't even bother discussing it.

[classhandicapper]

It's hard for me to make a comparison to the great horses of the 70s. Back in those days, Seattle Slew was considered to be a lightly raced horse. AP is still very lightly raced. He won't get a chance to run at his peak like some of those others. So who knows how much he could have accomplished and how fast he could have run with more time and more opportunities?

All that said, he has accomplished a Triple Crown and Breeder's Cup Classic, very fast speed figures, the ability to relax off the pace or dominate and bottom out the chasers, and won on fast and off tracks. That's a damn lot in such a short period of time. I'd have to say he's probably as talented as any horse I've seen. I just wish we got to see more so we could do a better job of ranking him. However, even without seeing more, IMHO he deserves a spot among the all time greats.

[Man o' War]

Cigar, the most overrated ‘great’ thoroughbred of all time. A horse that got beat by a 3yr old Skip Away. A horse that couldn’t run on the turf or never shown he could run a mile and a half, and we’re mentioning him when talking about the best of the best? Cigar wouldn’t be able to stay with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer if he ever had the sorry chance to race with them. How is he going to run down the Pharoah at any distance? And yet we still bring up this charade of a horse named Cigar when comparing all time greats?
In Pharoah, we’re looking at a Seattle Slew type speed horse here that just cruises along at high speed at a distance making all the others in the race look weak in the process. They can’t run with him from the start, can’t run with him through the quarters and can’t stay with him in the stretch.
The group he just faced was supposed to crush him according to some self-described numbers/pace experts on this forum here but it turned out to be the other way around.
Yeah, we can look at accomplishments, streaks, and the lifetime records of great horses of the past and have a dim view of the other Triple Crown Champions’ scant, limited race records, but a pretty race record doesn’t tell how each would do if they faced each other ‘on the track’ which is what counts in my book. And ‘on the track’, the last 5 Triple Crown Champions would eat Cigar alive even with his glorified race record…and you can include Count Fleet in that group also. So where would that put Cigar when bringing in the non-triple crown champs in the mix of Great Horses of All Time talk… like the Bid, Dr Fager, Buckpasser, Native Dancer, Kelso and my boy MOW??

[OntheRail]

uuAqzle-sBs

Cigar BCC 20 years ago.
159.2 over slop... AP is Great but Cigar was better. :)

[RXB]

Cigar, the most overrated ‘great’ thoroughbred of all time. A horse that got beat by a 3yr old Skip Away.

A fall 6YO when he got beat by Skip Away. If you think 6YO's in October are typically in their prime and have an advantage over 3YO's, you might want to brush up on things.

[thaskalos]

Cigar, the most overrated ‘great’ thoroughbred of all time. A horse that got beat by a 3yr old Skip Away. A horse that couldn’t run on the turf or never shown he could run a mile and a half, and we’re mentioning him when talking about the best of the best? Cigar wouldn’t be able to stay with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer if he ever had the sorry chance to race with them. How is he going to run down the Pharoah at any distance? And yet we still bring up this charade of a horse named Cigar when comparing all time greats?
In Pharoah, we’re looking at a Seattle Slew type speed horse here that just cruises along at high speed at a distance making all the others in the race look weak in the process. They can’t run with him from the start, can’t run with him through the quarters and can’t stay with him in the stretch.
The group he just faced was supposed to crush him according to some self-described numbers/pace experts on this forum here but it turned out to be the other way around.
Yeah, we can look at accomplishments, streaks, and the lifetime records of great horses of the past and have a dim view of the other Triple Crown Champions’ scant, limited race records, but a pretty race record doesn’t tell how each would do if they faced each other ‘on the track’ which is what counts in my book. And ‘on the track’, the last 5 Triple Crown Champions would eat Cigar alive even with his glorified race record…and you can include Count Fleet in that group also. So where would that put Cigar when bringing in the non-triple crown champs in the mix of Great Horses of All Time talk… like the Bid, Dr Fager, Buckpasser, Native Dancer, Kelso and my boy MOW??

Easy now...don't forget that you are talking about a horse who was run down by the mighty Keen Ice...after getting softened up by the blazing Frosted.

And I would be very interested to know who those "numbers/pace experts on this forum" were...who predicted that the Pharoah would be "crushed" by the field that he faced yesterday.

Nice try friend. Now...go back into hibernation. :ThmbUp:

[zico20]

Cigar, the most overrated ‘great’ thoroughbred of all time. A horse that got beat by a 3yr old Skip Away. A horse that couldn’t run on the turf or never shown he could run a mile and a half, and we’re mentioning him when talking about the best of the best? Cigar wouldn’t be able to stay with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer if he ever had the sorry chance to race with them. How is he going to run down the Pharoah at any distance? And yet we still bring up this charade of a horse named Cigar when comparing all time greats?
In Pharoah, we’re looking at a Seattle Slew type speed horse here that just cruises along at high speed at a distance making all the others in the race look weak in the process. They can’t run with him from the start, can’t run with him through the quarters and can’t stay with him in the stretch.
The group he just faced was supposed to crush him according to some self-described numbers/pace experts on this forum here but it turned out to be the other way around.
Yeah, we can look at accomplishments, streaks, and the lifetime records of great horses of the past and have a dim view of the other Triple Crown Champions’ scant, limited race records, but a pretty race record doesn’t tell how each would do if they faced each other ‘on the track’ which is what counts in my book. And ‘on the track’, the last 5 Triple Crown Champions would eat Cigar alive even with his glorified race record…and you can include Count Fleet in that group also. So where would that put Cigar when bringing in the non-triple crown champs in the mix of Great Horses of All Time talk… like the Bid, Dr Fager, Buckpasser, Native Dancer, Kelso and my boy MOW??

You can't be serious with that bolded comment, can you. AP never ran fast early. Seattle Slew ran 109.2 in a mile and a half race. Yes, he lost to Exceller by a nose but Slew had tremendous early speed that AP could only dream of.

[Fager Fan]

Let's put this in perspective. Before yesterday, Beyer had ALL these horses faster than American Pharoah this year:

Beholder
Liam's Map
Honor Code
Constitution
Shared Belief
Smooth Roller
Lea
Materiality
Souper Lucky
Tonalist

These were tied with American Pharoah's best:

Commissioner
Race Day
Sr. Quisqueyano

...and this is the guy we want to use as the benchmark for judging this horse historically? He was dead wrong about him all year and finally, when he is retiring, he basically admits it with one good number.

That is comical. Souper Luck? Tonalist? Materiality? Constitiution? Honor Code? Sr. Quisqueyano? I can't stop laughing.

Almost as funny is you saying Keeneland was a speed track yesterday.

Do you dismiss so readily Ragozin and Thorograph since they likewise had other horses running faster?

[cj]

Do you dismiss so readily Ragozin and Thorograph since they likewise had other horses running faster?

I already said I'm not aware of other figures, did I not? I'll check the TG redboard room later today. TG had Stonetastic as the fastest horse of all time if the Twitter talk I saw was correct. We all blow some now and then, myself included.

[cj]

Do you dismiss so readily Ragozin and Thorograph since they likewise had other horses running faster?

Also, like I said, we all get figures wrong. But this is one time I really shouldn't have to defend the figures I gave American Pharoah. The results speak for themselves.

[classhandicapper]

I know I'm like a broken record on the issue of figures, but I'm passionate about it and I can't let go because I think speed figures are distorting the historical record badly. So please cut me some slack if you disagree or are tired of me. ;)

There's no question that the times of races are indicative of the ability of the horses. However, IMHO, final times are the result of extremely complex interrelationships between the ability of the horses, how much speed and/or stamina they have, the pace, the competitive nature of the race, the depth of the field, and the surface. By surface, I don't just mean how fast it was. I mean whether it was accenting speed or stamina. To think that a single (or even a few) numbers are definitive, is to put way too much weight on something that is merely an estimate of reality (often a very poor one) .

I'm not even talking about the accuracy issues here.

Brilliant figure makers disagree by 5 lengths on important races all the time. And we are to trust that these figures somehow matter when comparing horses from 20 or more years ago when the surfaces and drugs were different? :lol:

For me, this game is about who beats who, by how much, how consistently, how easily, and with what trips. Within trip is pace, pressure, bias, ground loss, trouble, how the track is playing etc...

It's tough to handicap that way. It's way more work. But IMHO, it's the way light and truth. There is no magical time based formula that captures it all. It's all way too complex and inaccurate. Figures are just partial, often inaccurate evidence of the reality we should be trying discern in other ways.

[elysiantraveller]

These discussions seem to pop up every year and they are always so trifling. I agree with CJ in just enjoying the here and now.

I personally don't care or have a dog in the fight in a who would win AP vs. Big Red, Cigar, Bid, Tonto...

Fact is on the very best days for each of them AP in form would be more than a handful for ALL of them. Beyond that?... who really cares? He belongs.

[bcgreg]

These discussions seem to pop up every year and they are always so trifling. I agree with CJ in just enjoying the here and now.

I personally don't care or have a dog in the fight in a who would win AP vs. Big Red, Cigar, Bid, Tonto...

Fact is on the very best days for each of them AP in form would be more than a handful for ALL of them. Beyond that?... who really cares? He belongs.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Rex Phinney]

If there was internet in the 70s, there is a very good chance all of these things would have been said about the horses of that decade as well. But horse racing records aren't very good and people's memories become selective 40 years later.

I've certainly thought about that. I wasn't born until 1980 so this is the first TC I've been around for. The thought crossed my mind that maybe to accomplish these things racing luck has to be on your side. Perhaps it's always like that and just no one mentions it 40 years later.

[clocker7]

It does hurt his credentials if you're trying to argue he's top 5 or 10 all time. He has less than 10 lifetime wins, he only beat Older horses once, most of his wins were at equal weights. The majority of his Beyer figs are significantly lower than many all timers, his 'sheet' numbers are slower too, so if you want to place him ahead of horses who won many more lifetime starts than AP, has win streaks longer than AP has had races, beat older more than once, won a race out of the country (DWC), etc you have to come up with some other reason why he's better. I'm certainly willing to listen to any argument, but when you are arguing top 5 all time, that argument better be pretty darn good.

This sorta matches my thoughts.

AP can't be blamed for what he ran against. The 3 yo crop was suspect speedwise, and he beat the dregs of the class before. Still, his own speed/time ratings will be how he will be placed among the pantheon. (I also agree with another poster above that several of his races could have a few ticks faster, had he needed to exert himself.)

I don't mind enigmas like this. It makes the sport even more interesting.

[ILovetheInner]

I've certainly thought about that. I wasn't born until 1980 so this is the first TC I've been around for. The thought crossed my mind that maybe to accomplish these things racing luck has to be on your side. Perhaps it's always like that and just no one mentions it 40 years later.

IMO that only goes so far. Secretariat, for all his grandness, had his detractors in the day. Slew most certainly did, until he was four. Forego won HOY repeatedly and has a grand resume, but a primary reason he is as iconic as he is is because they ran him. Huge weight, strips he couldn't handle. They ran him. Particularly in terms of off strips, he wasn't supposed to win those, but the people had come to see him. He was not Secretariat and he was not Slew, but you knew what he could do when odds were against him. That was his legend and the primary reason for his fame.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Where are Runhappy's critics? As far as I know, there are no heated debates. No separate Runhappy camps. Of course a lot due to "his" fault for gate habits and drifting and overall inexperience that should lose him races and yet he overcomes. And in the wake of it all, plenty thought he would not win the Breeders Cup (raises hand, lol) But he wins it, rating, and outgutting one of the most crusty, hard knocking and experienced horses in the land. And took another record. Really no room to be prickly about much.

The TC comes in batches, and if the next one has to ding dong or stumbles on the turn or gets shuffled back and comes on in the last second, I think we will see the difference. I think we see the contrast right now, when thinking of AP versus Runhappy sentiments. We just don't notice it, because no one is arguing about the latter.

[nijinski]

I think AP showed early he was special and to be able to do what he did and still win the BCC . Tremendous.
He missed the Juvey last year. .Nyquist wins it this year .
Pharoah breaks his maiden in a stakes race 121.48 ,
Nyquist won the same race , the Futurity 123.28 .
There were signs early of his greatness , focus and determination. Some of you
are just not getting and maybe won't until you wait for the next Triple Crown , Grand Slam winner .

[luisbe]

I gave him all his credit. He earned my respect yesterday.

However, to me his win still has an asterisk. (in terms of how great he is all time).

Does anyone here really believe he would have ran the same monstrous race if Liam's Map lead the field into the clubhouse turn AND AP had Beholder on his plank AND throw in another variable....Smooth Roller was somewhere else in the mix?

2 of those fled from the race while the other accused a diarrhea as soon as it saw AP walking next to the stall.
OTOH, guessing he might be like Bayern at 4 is an interested opinion acomodated to your thinking, I say he could have improved 10 lengths.

[Dark Horse]

Originally Posted by Dark Horse
The first ever Grand Slam winner. They'll be talking about that 200 years from now.

200 years might be a stretch : )

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

[thaskalos]

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

Very good! :ThmbUp:

[LottaKash]

I think AP showed early he was special and to be able to do what he did and still win the BCC .Pharoah breaks his maiden in a stakes race 121.48 ,
.


Plus, in that 7f race, the splits were: 22.72 45.23 108.95 121.48

Basically, I am a Form & Foundation guy when doing the 3yos, so, as a 2yo I would say, that was a very solid foundation for a horse making only his 2d start...I would say, that was a very precocious maiden win and a sign of excellent early speed ability and suggests a solid future for the next year's adventures...

As it turned out, in each of his 3yo races there was a different story, speedwise, attached to each race....I think that the biggest problem is that AP never did have to fire the big early splits due to the makeup of the fields and track condition(s)... But I always believe and maintain that he had the "foundation" already built in if need be..

And, I truly believe, that in AP's loss in the Travers, his only downside all campaign long, was due to Form Cycle Fatigue, and he had just tailed off a bit, not in ability, but stamina, is all I saw...He was just a bit tired after those very strenuous TC winning effort(s)....Despite that, he ran his Travers bravely, and he was "there" at the end, just not in front, and not by much, but still a game race for a true Champion, that imo ,just wasn't at his best that day....

His authoritative win the BC bears this out, I think...

This guy just made "History", and a big perhaps, he is not the greatest of all time, but he sure is a "Legend" now, all the same... Whether anyone agrees with that, haha, or not.... You just can't take that away from this guy... He raced at 9 different tracks to boot, and overcame all of the diversity of them..

He was as game and brave in each and every one of his races as almost any horse that I have witnessed since 1962....

[nijinski]

Plus, in that 7f race, the splits were: 22.72 45.23 108.95 121.48

Basically, I am a Form & Foundation guy when doing the 3yos, so, as a 2yo I would say, that was a very solid foundation for a horse making only his 2d start...I would say, that was a very precocious maiden win and a sign of excellent early speed ability and suggests a solid future for the next year's adventures...

As it turned out, in each of his 3yo races there was a different story, speedwise, attached to each race....I think that the biggest problem is that AP never did have to fire the big early splits due to the makeup of the fields and track condition(s)... But I always believe and maintain that he had the "foundation" already built in if need be..
And, I truly believe, that in AP's loss in the Travers, his only downside all campaign long, was due to Form Cycle Fatigue, and he had just tailed off a bit, not in ability, but stamina, is all I saw...He was just a bit tired after those very strenuous TC winning effort(s)....Despite that, he ran his Travers bravely, and he was "there" at the end, just not in front, and not by much, but still a game race for a true Champion, that imo ,just wasn't at his best that day....

His authoritative win the BC bears this out, I think...



This guy just made "History", and a big perhaps, he is not the greatest of all time, but he sure is a "Legend" now, all the same... Whether anyone agrees with that, haha, or not.... You just can't take that away from this guy... He raced at 9 different tracks to boot, and overcame all of the diversity of them..

He was as game and brave in each and every one of his races as almost any
horse that I have witnessed since 1962....

The Travers can be forgiven with as you said completing the TC campaign , Haskell , going back West and East again . I love watching his 2 yo Futurity Bob said he wore blinkers in his very first race , big mistake he said. Then he breaks his mdn in the stakes and crushes the field at 7 furlongs . He looked so much the same winning Saturday at 10 furlongs. So determined and focused . Going to miss him and I agree he will be a very deserving legend !

[nijinski]

Btw , just to add to some of his greatness . He has beaten fields from 7 to 12 furlongs .
Has been able to handle slopfests with full confidence and does not have have to bring his track with him that's aside from his Gr 1 and Classic wins .his resume will shine !

[Man o' War]

Easy now...don't forget that you are talking about a horse who was run down by the mighty Keen Ice...after getting softened up by the blazing Frosted. :

We all know now that he was a tired horse in that race due to his long triple crown campaign, he wasn’t right...

And I would be very interested to know who those "numbers/pace experts on this forum" were...who predicted that the Pharoah would be "crushed" by the field that he faced yesterday.:

That EMDME guy, the one who gets in fights with people…..said AP would finish out of the money, but I admit his declaration was before all the supposed rabbits and pacesetters defected, so the actual field doesn’t quite fit in with the claim…my bad. But then, don’t you cancel your bets and reevaluate in the event of scratches?

Nice try friend. Now...go back into hibernation. :ThmbUp:

Will do, love reading your posts by the way…

[Man o' War]

You can't be serious with that bolded comment, can you. AP never ran fast early. Seattle Slew ran 109.2 in a mile and a half race. Yes, he lost to Exceller by a nose but Slew had tremendous early speed that AP could only dream of.

Would never say he had Slew’s speed or put him above the Slew. Was attempting to equate their similar running styles…sorry for the confusion

[thaskalos]

...love reading your posts by the way…

In that case...forget what I said about going back into hibernation. You are welcomed to stick around... :)

[Hoops McCann]

It will be a trivia question in a space age Jeopardy. One of the contestants, knowing the answer, will bet everything. And lose. Because she spelled it 'Pharaoh'.

Jeopardy doesn't penalize for misspelling. nice try :cool:

[Stillriledup]

One more thought about AP. His campaign and success was a big shot in the arm for 'racing' this was a horse who promised and delivered. To take hard triple crown summer and find a way to deliver that kind of message in the Classic was really special, it was incredible actually.

I'm far from the biggest Baffert fan but his handling of this horse was as good as it gets, not to mention the way he spoke to media and handled all the interview requests and whatnut, I would be surprised if he didnt have to deal with lots of requests from people for selfies with the horse as well as wanting to come by the barn to see the horse, we see the finished product but there's a LOT going on behind the scenes when you have a horse like this.

Great stuff from A(p) to Z.

[lansdale]

This may be posted elsewhere on the site, but I haven't seen it. Although Beyer sounds like he's more willing to admit AP to the pantheon than before, his case re Liam's Map seems completely specious. If he really had a chance to beat AP, doesn't he think Pletcher would have run him in the Classic?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/with-breeders-cup-win-american-pharoah-cements-his-place-in-history/2015/11/01/6effb0b6-80b8-11e5-9afb-0c971f713d0c_story.html

[classhandicapper]

This may be posted elsewhere on the site, but I haven't seen it. Although Beyer sounds like he's more willing to admit AP to the pantheon than before, his case re Liam's Map seems completely specious. If he really had a chance to beat AP, doesn't he think Pletcher would have run him in the Classic?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/with-breeders-cup-win-american-pharoah-cements-his-place-in-history/2015/11/01/6effb0b6-80b8-11e5-9afb-0c971f713d0c_story.html

This whole Liam's Map thing is really starting to get on my nerves.

Liam's Map is obviously an extremely talented middle distance horse. He ran an amazing race in the Whitney and ran another terrific race in the BC Mile. The problem is he LOST to Honor Code at 9F after running away from Moreno (and would have lost to Tonalist that day too if the race was 10F).

People actually believe he would have beaten these horses at 10F instead of 9F after having to put away AP instead of Moreno?

That about the funniest thing I've ever heard. :lol:

The best case scenario for Liam's Map is that he would have put AP away eventually (something no one should be willing to grant so easily) and then lost to the closers that picked up the pieces. More likely is that AP would have stalked him and pounced when Liam's Map started realizing he was a great miler that could stretch out 1/8th of a mile further against top horses on sheer talent.

I also obviously disagree strongly on the Travers. Now that virtually every horse on my spreadsheet that raced inside that day has come back, the evidence that the rail was bad is so overwhelming it's not even a question in my mind. People missed it because a couple of superior horses dropped to the inside in the stretch and still won. But if you watched all the headons and tracked all the horses, it's clear as it can be AP was running on an inferior path inside while dueling.

[LottaKash]

Funny thing, of all places to find, that I just read from the little paper tag that are encased in a Chinese fortune-cookie...

It said: "The speed of the leader, determines the rate of the pack"...

That is how it was with AP I think, he was the "leader of the pack"...

[ultracapper]

This whole Liam's Map thing is really starting to get on my nerves.

Liam's Map is obviously an extremely talented middle distance horse. He ran an amazing race in the Whitney and ran another terrific race in the BC Mile. The problem is he LOST to Honor Code at 9F after running away from Moreno (and would have lost to Tonalist that day too if the race was 10F).

People actually believe he would have beaten these horses at 10F instead of 9F after having to put away AP instead of Moreno?

That about the funniest thing I've ever heard. :lol:

The best case scenario for Liam's Map is that he would have put AP away eventually (something no one should be willing to grant so easily) and then lost to the closers that picked up the pieces. More likely is that AP would have stalked him and pounced when Liam's Map started realizing he was a great miler that could stretch out 1/8th of a mile further against top horses on sheer talent.

I also obviously disagree strongly on the Travers. Now that virtually every horse on my spreadsheet that raced inside that day has come back, the evidence that the rail was bad is so overwhelming it's not even a question in my mind. People missed it because a couple of superior horses dropped to the inside in the stretch and still won. But if you watched all the headons and tracked all the horses, it's clear as it can be AP was running on an inferior path inside while dueling.

Agree 1000%. The horse is a Breeders Cup Champion. The owners own a Breeders Cup Champion. Sorry he couldn't be the sacrificial lamb we all wanted so we can feed our meaningless debates concerning AP. You know, LM dodged the Classic so AP would get the dream set up. That's why LM was entered in the Mile. It had nothing to do with the connections actually spotting him in a $2m race that he fit to a T.

[cj]

This whole Liam's Map thing is really starting to get on my nerves.

Liam's Map is obviously an extremely talented middle distance horse. He ran an amazing race in the Whitney and ran another terrific race in the BC Mile. The problem is he LOST to Honor Code at 9F after running away from Moreno (and would have lost to Tonalist that day too if the race was 10F).

People actually believe he would have beaten these horses at 10F instead of 9F after having to put away AP instead of Moreno?

That about the funniest thing I've ever heard. :lol:

The best case scenario for Liam's Map is that he would have put AP away eventually (something no one should be willing to grant so easily) and then lost to the closers that picked up the pieces. More likely is that AP would have stalked him and pounced when Liam's Map started realizing he was a great miler that could stretch out 1/8th of a mile further against top horses on sheer talent.

I also obviously disagree strongly on the Travers. Now that virtually every horse on my spreadsheet that raced inside that day has come back, the evidence that the rail was bad is so overwhelming it's not even a question in my mind. People missed it because a couple of superior horses dropped to the inside in the stretch and still won. But if you watched all the headons and tracked all the horses, it's clear as it can be AP was running on an inferior path inside while dueling.

I agree whole-heartedly. He couldn't hold off Honor Code. Honor Code is a very good horse, but he isn't a champion by any means And like you say, that was at a mile and an eighth.

I personally think Liam's Map should have been in the Classic, but I don't think for a second the result would have been any different at the wire.

[cj]

I think AP showed early he was special and to be able to do what he did and still win the BCC . Tremendous.
He missed the Juvey last year. .Nyquist wins it this year .
Pharoah breaks his maiden in a stakes race 121.48 ,
Nyquist won the same race , the Futurity 123.28 .
There were signs early of his greatness , focus and determination. Some of you
are just not getting and maybe won't until you wait for the next Triple Crown , Grand Slam winner .

American Pharoah won his Del Mar Futurity on Polytrack, Nyquist won on dirt. Very had to compare final times a year apart, but on two different surfaces it is impossible.

[ultracapper]

This whole Liam's Map thing is really starting to get on my nerves.

Liam's Map is obviously an extremely talented middle distance horse. He ran an amazing race in the Whitney and ran another terrific race in the BC Mile. The problem is he LOST to Honor Code at 9F after running away from Moreno (and would have lost to Tonalist that day too if the race was 10F).

People actually believe he would have beaten these horses at 10F instead of 9F after having to put away AP instead of Moreno?

That about the funniest thing I've ever heard. :lol:

The best case scenario for Liam's Map is that he would have put AP away eventually (something no one should be willing to grant so easily) and then lost to the closers that picked up the pieces. More likely is that AP would have stalked him and pounced when Liam's Map started realizing he was a great miler that could stretch out 1/8th of a mile further against top horses on sheer talent.

I also obviously disagree strongly on the Travers. Now that virtually every horse on my spreadsheet that raced inside that day has come back, the evidence that the rail was bad is so overwhelming it's not even a question in my mind. People missed it because a couple of superior horses dropped to the inside in the stretch and still won. But if you watched all the headons and tracked all the horses, it's clear as it can be AP was running on an inferior path inside while dueling.

There is one that's even bugging me more than that. It's just my opinion, and I know there is lots of data to contradict this, but in my mind, Beholder wouldn't have even been a factor. I've seen a handful of her races, and no doubt, she's a very good mare, but I haven't been sold on her in that field, to even be a nuisance, at all. It's just my opinion, but the way I saw the race setting up with her in it, was she would have been a couple lengths off through the first 6f, and when AP would have been asked, she would have been asked also, and she wouldn't have made a dent. I just couldn't picture her making a move that would have gotten in AP's face, nor could I envision her flanking him. If I were a superfecta player, she wouldn't have been on my ticket, anywhere.

[ultracapper]

I agree whole-heartedly. He couldn't hold off Honor Code. Honor Code is a very good horse, but he isn't a champion by any means And like you say, that was at a mile and an eighth.

I personally think Liam's Map should have been in the Classic, but I don't think for a second the result would have been any different at the wire.

Of course AP will be gone next year, but if LM comes back next year, and performs as he did this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the classic. They got this one in the bank, now they can go for a bigger fish next. Kind of like what they did with Zenyatta. They could have gone back to the distaff her 2nd time around, but they put her record on the table and tackled the boys the 2nd year there, and of course the 3rd time also.

[cj]

Of course AP will be gone next year, but if LM comes back next year, and performs as he did this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the classic. They got this one in the bank, now they can go for a bigger fish next. Kind of like what they did with Zenyatta. They could have gone back to the distaff her 2nd time around, but they put her record on the table and tackled the boys the 2nd year there, and of course the 3rd time also.

Pretty sure Liam's Map is retired now, which is part of why I said I think he should have tried. Don't see how the Dirt Mile did much for his breeding career, but I'm no expert in that area.

[cj]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/95607/liams-map-to-stand-at-lanes-end-in-2016

Personally wish they'd let him run in the Cigar Mile before retirement. Not sure why that isn't an option.

[Tom]

I wouldn't hold my breath over who's in the Cigar Mile, let alone anything in 2016.

Best hope is that next year we get all the good ones back from last year who got hurt this year. :bang:

[classhandicapper]

I agree whole-heartedly. He couldn't hold off Honor Code. Honor Code is a very good horse, but he isn't a champion by any means And like you say, that was at a mile and an eighth.

I personally think Liam's Map should have been in the Classic, but I don't think for a second the result would have been any different at the wire.

Exactly.

I have no problem with everyone thinking he should have been in the Classic. He clearly earned the right and it would have made for a much better race and challenge for AP. I just didn't think it was a no brain decision. In handicapping terms I didn't like him much at 10F against AP. So if they held my handicapping view (which I think is reasonable), it's understandable they chickened out (if that's the right word). If I owned him, I think I would have run in the Mile. I'd have been more inclined to run someone like Lea in the Classic because a piece of the Classic is worth so much more than a piece of the Mile and he's been 10F. I could see Liam's Map off the board in the Classic if AP put him away or the 10F was too much (more likely).

[nijinski]

Pretty sure Liam's Map is retired now, which is part of why I said I think he should have tried. Don't see how the Dirt Mile did much for his breeding career, but I'm no expert in that area.
There was a time when breeders looked to the Met Mile for prospects. Blood horse had an article about that .a few back. Years that is .
Breeders love a good fast miler for fast return and sometimes in the hopes they can stretch out .
I don't think its a stretch to think Lanes End who invested in him gave out advice. for the choice , especially knowing how good he would look winning the mile .

[dilanesp]

I think the Liam's Map thing isn't so much that he would have won (he probably wouldn't have) but he would have given American Pharoah a real pace test.

And this gets back to what I really think about the Pharoah. I said in another thread that he is a lesser version of Affirmed. Affirmed was not the best horse ever by any means. But he won a lot of races by making his own racing luck-- he could go wire to wire or sit behind a pacesetter. He almost always got himself a perfect trip.

When he didn't, though, such as in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, he lost.

Because tactical speed is a legitimate part of racing, there's nothing wrong with that. Affirmed is a legitimate all-time great horse.

American Pharoah did the same thing. He dominated his races by controlling the pace scenario. He had speed but was also tractable.

On the other hand, when he faced adversity, you saw what happened in the Travers.

He's nowhere near an all-time great-- he never carried weight, didn't run often enough, wasn't fast enough (except in his last start), and didn't beat much. I wouldn't even put him in the top 50 American racehorses. (To pick an example of a horse that nobody rates (i.e., staying away from the obvious ones like Citation and Spectacular Bid), Stymie was 15 times the racehorse that American Pharoah was.)

But the TC-Breeders' Cup Classic parlay is impressive and unlikely to be done again for a long time, and I admire this horse a lot for much the same reasons I admire Affirmed-- that ability to dictate pace scenarios in a race, and generally not be at the mercy of getting a good trip, is a really great thing to have. And the other thing I love about the Pharoah is he always fired-- a tribute to Baffert's training.

[andtheyreoff]

Here's another thing about Pharoah: he won six grade 1 races this season. How many horses have dobe that in recent times? Or ever?

[tucker6]

Here's another thing about Pharoah: he won six grade 1 races this season. How many horses have dobe that in recent times? Or ever?
Cigar won 8 one year. Big Red won 7 if you count the Marlboro Cup. 6 if you don't. It is quite the accomplishment. Even the Bid only won 5 in any single year.

[cj]

He's nowhere near an all-time great-- he never carried weight,

By this measure going forward no horse in North America will ever be an all time great.

[tucker6]

lots of goalpost moving going on. Just this morning I read that AP's greatness as a racehorse won't be known until he is done in the breeding shed.

[Stillriledup]

Pretty sure Liam's Map is retired now, which is part of why I said I think he should have tried. Don't see how the Dirt Mile did much for his breeding career, but I'm no expert in that area.

The breeding industry loves great milers, but I'm no expert either in this area.

[Stillriledup]

I think the Liam's Map thing isn't so much that he would have won (he probably wouldn't have) but he would have given American Pharoah a real pace test.

And this gets back to what I really think about the Pharoah. I said in another thread that he is a lesser version of Affirmed. Affirmed was not the best horse ever by any means. But he won a lot of races by making his own racing luck-- he could go wire to wire or sit behind a pacesetter. He almost always got himself a perfect trip.

When he didn't, though, such as in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, he lost.

Because tactical speed is a legitimate part of racing, there's nothing wrong with that. Affirmed is a legitimate all-time great horse.

American Pharoah did the same thing. He dominated his races by controlling the pace scenario. He had speed but was also tractable.

On the other hand, when he faced adversity, you saw what happened in the Travers.

He's nowhere near an all-time great-- he never carried weight, didn't run often enough, wasn't fast enough (except in his last start), and didn't beat much. I wouldn't even put him in the top 50 American racehorses. (To pick an example of a horse that nobody rates (i.e., staying away from the obvious ones like Citation and Spectacular Bid), Stymie was 15 times the racehorse that American Pharoah was.)

But the TC-Breeders' Cup Classic parlay is impressive and unlikely to be done again for a long time, and I admire this horse a lot for much the same reasons I admire Affirmed-- that ability to dictate pace scenarios in a race, and generally not be at the mercy of getting a good trip, is a really great thing to have. And the other thing I love about the Pharoah is he always fired-- a tribute to Baffert's training.

This is right, people wanted to see him head and head with another great horse. Liam's map was vicious in victory, I don't think it's out of the question that if Liam got the lead he wouldn't have went all the way. LM was as good as you could be in victory, but we will never know for sure what would have happened.

[cj]

The breeding industry loves great milers, but I'm no expert either in this area.

That is a myth. Who are these great milers the industry is in love with in the breeding shed?

[Stillriledup]

That is a myth. Who are these great milers the industry is in love with in the breeding shed?

I don't know, I'm not up to speed on that. Just going on what I hear from breeding 'experts'.

[VeryOldMan]

He's nowhere near an all-time great-- he never carried weight, didn't run often enough, wasn't fast enough (except in his last start), and didn't beat much. I wouldn't even put him in the top 50 American racehorses. (To pick an example of a horse that nobody rates (i.e., staying away from the obvious ones like Citation and Spectacular Bid), Stymie was 15 times the racehorse that American Pharoah was.)

But the TC-Breeders' Cup Classic parlay is impressive and unlikely to be done again for a long time, and I admire this horse a lot for much the same reasons I admire Affirmed-- that ability to dictate pace scenarios in a race, and generally not be at the mercy of getting a good trip, is a really great thing to have. And the other thing I love about the Pharoah is he always fired-- a tribute to Baffert's training.

I respect your opinion - but c'mon. I've been watching this game for decades too. Not top 50?!!!

AP just won the Triple Crown for the first time since 1978. BC Classic didn't exist back in "the day", but he just won it too. Set a track record at Keeneland. Having been set down in the stretch like Ron Turcotte did with Secretariat in the Belmont - I LOVED what VE did.

It's hard as hell to compare horses across time - I argue on this board with a Spectacular Bid fan v Affirmed and Seattle Slew. My all time favorite is Forego.

But AP has put on a run that we surely have to respect across the decades. If we get three Triple Crown winners over 6 racing seasons like back in the 70s, let's revisit.

[AndyC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
He's nowhere near an all-time great-- he never carried weight,

By this measure going forward no horse in North America will ever be an all time great.

Does that mean Secretariat isn't an all-time great or is the carrying weight measurement optional?

[ultracapper]

Pretty sure Liam's Map is retired now, which is part of why I said I think he should have tried. Don't see how the Dirt Mile did much for his breeding career, but I'm no expert in that area.
That's a lot bigger shame to me than not running in the classic. There are still opportunities for the horse to conquer on the track.

[EMD4ME]

This whole Liam's Map thing is really starting to get on my nerves.

Liam's Map is obviously an extremely talented middle distance horse. He ran an amazing race in the Whitney and ran another terrific race in the BC Mile. The problem is he LOST to Honor Code at 9F after running away from Moreno (and would have lost to Tonalist that day too if the race was 10F).

People actually believe he would have beaten these horses at 10F instead of 9F after having to put away AP instead of Moreno?

That about the funniest thing I've ever heard. :lol:

The best case scenario for Liam's Map is that he would have put AP away eventually (something no one should be willing to grant so easily) and then lost to the closers that picked up the pieces. More likely is that AP would have stalked him and pounced when Liam's Map started realizing he was a great miler that could stretch out 1/8th of a mile further against top horses on sheer talent.

I also obviously disagree strongly on the Travers. Now that virtually every horse on my spreadsheet that raced inside that day has come back, the evidence that the rail was bad is so overwhelming it's not even a question in my mind. People missed it because a couple of superior horses dropped to the inside in the stretch and still won. But if you watched all the headons and tracked all the horses, it's clear as it can be AP was running on an inferior path inside while dueling.

Class,

How did you have the rail on the day Honor Code beat Liam's Map?

I am asking sincerely, not saracastically.

Thanks,

EMD4ME

[EMD4ME]

Agree 1000%. The horse is a Breeders Cup Champion. The owners own a Breeders Cup Champion. Sorry he couldn't be the sacrificial lamb we all wanted so we can feed our meaningless debates concerning AP. You know, LM dodged the Classic so AP would get the dream set up. That's why LM was entered in the Mile. It had nothing to do with the connections actually spotting him in a $2m race that he fit to a T.

With all due respect Ultracapper.....

Did you mean $550,000 1st place prize in a $920,000 race?

The Mile is not a $2MM. Heck it's not even 60% of $1MM.

He really couldn't find a way to think he'd run 4th in the BCC ($300K) or 3rd at $500,000 WHILE taking a chance at immortality, higher breeding fees and $2,750,000?

[Stillriledup]

With all due respect Ultracapper.....

Did you mean $550,000 1st place prize in a $920,000 race?

The Mile is not a $2MM. Heck it's not even 60% of $1MM.

He really couldn't find a way to think he'd run 4th in the BCC ($300K) or 3rd at $500,000 WHILE taking a chance at immortality, higher breeding fees and $2,750,000?

Could he have cross entered? If they did, they would have known Beholder was out before they had to decide.

[EMD4ME]

I agree whole-heartedly. He couldn't hold off Honor Code. Honor Code is a very good horse, but he isn't a champion by any means And like you say, that was at a mile and an eighth.

I personally think Liam's Map should have been in the Classic, but I don't think for a second the result would have been any different at the wire.

Might not have been different at the wire but it would take any doubts as to how amazing AP is and was and thrown them out the window.

Almost everyone I spoke to on track kept saying the same thing:

I wish the field was intact, let the best horse win. Liam's Map, more than Beholder and Smooth Roller's defection, hurt the quality and the integrity of the race.

Everyone since 1940 knows lone speed is at a huge advantage.

But yet again, he did what he's supposed to do and earned my respect and other's respect. Shame there's some Q marks attached to his win.

[EMD4ME]

Could he have cross entered? If they did, they would have known Beholder was out before they had to decide.

You want MY HONEST answer? Of course not, because when Beholder defected and Smooth Roller defected, the public pressure would have been there to run in the Classic.

That wasn't part of the script. Errr. I mean plan. Errr, I mean yeah WWE is 100% real all the time.

[Stillriledup]

Might not have been different at the wire but it would take any doubts as to how amazing AP is and was and thrown them out the window.

Almost everyone I spoke to on track kept saying the same thing:

I wish the field was intact, let the best horse win. Liam's Map, more than Beholder and Smooth Roller's defection, hurt the quality and the integrity of the race.

Everyone since 1940 knows lone speed is at a huge advantage.

But yet again, he did what he's supposed to do and earned my respect and other's respect. Shame there's some Q marks attached to his win.

I think the question marks are only for people who want to debate all time great rankings, other than that, there are no question marks since its not APs fault nobody showed up. He gets credit for a devastatingly easy win. While lone speed is a huge advantage, you still have to be good enough to win.

[EMD4ME]

SOOOO MANY other horses cross entered....

Think about the wisdom of your question....

What if AP stepped on a nail...(It's happened before.....Spectacular Bid)

What if 2 other key horses scratched at the last second...(It did happen)

Why NOT BE cross entered just in case???????????????????????

We all know why.....The plan was in place to NOT run in the BCC no matter what.

The "WHY" all of you want to believe is totally different than what I see.

[dilanesp]

By this measure going forward no horse in North America will ever be an all time great.

It has been less than 20 years since Skip Away carried 131.

The reality is that the breeding industry tends to work against horses achieving greatness anymore. But that doesn't mean we can lower the standards.

[Stillriledup]

SOOOO MANY other horses cross entered....

Think about the wisdom of your question....

What if AP stepped on a nail...(It's happened before.....)

What if 2 other key horses scratched at the last second...

Why NOT BE cross entered just in case???????????????????????

We all know why.....The plan was in place to NOT run in the BCC no matter what.

The "WHY" is up to all of you to decide why.

I guess the idea of cross entering might be different since you probably have to decide which race you want to pick at the draw, so it might not be allowed to enter in 2 races and pick where you want to run at the last second. The cross enter might be for preentries? I'm not sure though, but at any rate, you can enter in both and decide at the draw, at least.

[EMD4ME]

I think the question marks are only for people who want to debate all time great rankings, other than that, there are no question marks since its not APs fault nobody showed up. He gets credit for a devastatingly easy win. While lone speed is a huge advantage, you still have to be good enough to win.

I totally 100000% agree. He did what he's supposed to do and earned a 120 Beyer in his facile trip/maximum effort given race.

Good for him and the connections involved.

I am only discussing his place in the pantheon of greats. Not anything else, like we all are.

[Stillriledup]

I totally 100000% agree. He did what he's supposed to do and earned a 120 Beyer in his facile trip/maximum effort given race.

Good for him and the connections involved.

I am only discussing his place in the pantheon of greats. Not anything else, like we all are.

Wasnt someone here saying he beyered a 116?

It's 120 now?

[EMD4ME]

I guess the idea of cross entering might be different since you probably have to decide which race you want to pick at the draw, so it might not be allowed to enter in 2 races and pick where you want to run at the last second. The cross enter might be for preentries? I'm not sure though, but at any rate, you can enter in both and decide at the draw, at least.

Here's my beef. They never preentered in both. I know as I had a list of horses cross entered.

How did they know at the time of entry, that 3,4 or 5 horses might have gotten hurt by some weird event while on track at Keeneland but not CROSS ENTER their horse BEFORE THE MONDAY OF THE DRAW?

How did they know that just 1 horse, AP, might come down with a stubbed hoof on a nail BEFORE HE SHIPPED TO KEENELAND?

They purposely closed the door on cross entering. WHY?

[EMD4ME]

Wasnt someone here saying he beyered a 116?

It's 120 now?

yes, 120. And for the record, I think Liam's Map should have earned a higher PERFORMANCE figure than AP but I've yet to see a reply from CJ. Maybe he did reply and I missed it. I want to see what is assigned to Liam....

Liam got a 114 Beyer but in my eyes it should have been much higher.

Liam 134 2/5 114 Beyer, came home in 11.68. Fair to project a 12 second next 1/8th. 146 2/5 or worst case 146 3/5. 12 LENGTHS FASTER THAN Stopchargingmaria's 98B. Stopchargingmaria 148.98, really 149 got a 98B.

12 X 1.8= 21.6

98 plus 21 is 119.6. Rounded up 120. Never mind his traffic and stress and issues. He could have ran a 125 plus.

Now do you see why I think people need to really put his facile wire to wire jog (with fractions equal to Riker in the 2yo Boy Juvenile-a crappy rendition) in perspective?

We all know slow paces on loose leads, lead to fast finishes.

Liam did his work with stress from hell. Much better performance if you ask me. If he was in the race, it's a totally different one.

[Stillriledup]

Here's my beef. They never preentered in both. I know as I had a list of horses cross entered.

How did they know at the time of entry, that 3,4 or 5 horses might have gotten hurt by some weird event while on track at Keeneland but not their horse BEFORE THE MONDAY OF THE DRAW?

How did they know that just 1 horse, AP, might come down with a stubbed hoof on a nail BEFORE HE SHIPPED TO KEENELAND?

They purposely closed the door on cross entering. WHY?

Good question.

[dilanesp]

I respect your opinion - but c'mon. I've been watching this game for decades too. Not top 50?!!!

AP just won the Triple Crown for the first time since 1978. BC Classic didn't exist back in "the day", but he just won it too. Set a track record at Keeneland. Having been set down in the stretch like Ron Turcotte did with Secretariat in the Belmont - I LOVED what VE did.

It's hard as hell to compare horses across time - I argue on this board with a Spectacular Bid fan v Affirmed and Seattle Slew. My all time favorite is Forego.

But AP has put on a run that we surely have to respect across the decades. If we get three Triple Crown winners over 6 racing seasons like back in the 70s, let's revisit.

Yes, not top 50. He didn't accomplish that much!

Look at a horse like Swaps. Or Round Table. Or Stymie. Or Whirlaway. Or Tom Fool. Or Buckpasser.

Again, I'm staying completely away from the obvious ones like Spectacular Bid and Citation and Dr. Fager. Just compare him to horses who would be ranked in the 10's or 20's or 30's. They all had better careers and did more.

The big thing that people are missing here is THE TRIPLE CROWN ISN'T THAT BIG A DEAL. Seriously, it isn't. Sir Barton won it. Omaha won it. Neither one of them was a great horse. It's an accomplishment, but it ISN'T A CAREER.

Heck, Real Quiet was a nose away from the Triple Crown, and won the Hollywood Gold Cup. All time great horse? And yet I am sure some would have declared him one had he won that photo with Victory Gallop.

There are horses, many of whom a lot of posters here barely know about, who had long careers doing amazing things. You just can't compare a horse who had a 11 starts, 10 of them against his own age group, to them.

And the handicap division, where you race against open company and carry weight, is way tougher than three year old races. Which is why the all time great horses established their greatness in those races. Not against 3 year olds.

American Pharoah deserves a lot of credit for what he did. But he isn't in any way shape or form an all time great horse.

[Stillriledup]

yes, 120. And for the record, I think Liam's Map should have earned a higher PERFORMANCE figure than AP but I've yet to see a reply from CJ. Maybe he did reply and I missed it. I want to see what is assigned to Liam....

Liam got a 114 Beyer but in my eyes it should have been much higher.

Liam 134 2/5 114 Beyer, came home in 11.68. Fair to project a 12 second next 1/8th. 146 2/5 or worst case 146 3/5. 12 LENGTHS FASTER THAN Stopchargingmaria's 98B. Stopchargingmaria 148.98, really 149 got a 98B.

12 X 1.8= 21.6

98 plus 21 is 119.6. Rounded up 120. Never mind his traffic and stress and issues. He could have ran a 125 plus.

Now do you see why I think people need to really put his facile wire to wire jog (with fractions equal to Riker in the 2yo Boy Juvenile-a crappy rendition) in perspective?

We all know slow paces on loose leads, lead to fast finishes.

Liam did his work with stress from hell. Much better performance if you ask me. If he was in the race, it's a totally different one.

How much money was it worth to APs owners to win the classic vs him fading back at the wire?

Also, what was the difference in the personal commission Pletcher would have gotten had LM won the Classic (vs what he got for LMs win)

Was it worth anything at all for the BC and or Keeneland to have AP crush in jog burger fashion vs him losing.? There was one more race after the classic, be interesting to see what was sold in the gift shop after the Classic as far as AP memorabilia goes if anything.

A lot of math needs to be done here I believe.

[EMD4ME]

How much money was it worth to APs owners to win the classic vs him fading back at the wire?

Also, what was the difference in the personal commission Pletcher would have gotten had LM won the Classic (vs what he got for LMs win)

Was it worth anything at all for the BC and or Keeneland to have AP crush in jog burger fashion vs him losing.? There was one more race after the classic, be interesting to see what was sold in the gift shop after the Classic as far as AP memorabilia goes if anything.

A lot of math needs to be done here I believe.

1) Ask Zayat or Coolmore. Not me. I heard rumors of $20MM - $40 MM but will never pretent to know the amount.

2) Liam earned $550,000 for his win. $2,750,000 to the victor of the BCC. Do you want to use 10%? $55K VS. $275K....

Not a large difference when compared to #1......

3) Not even I, could see a track do something afoul to make a chalk win, so that a gift shop sells more memorabilia. Sorry buddy.....

[martini]

I would have liked to have seen AP knock heads with a healthy Beholder, Shared Belief, and California Chrome, but that was not on the plate and he did well.

There are some doubts about how great he is, but he certainly had a great year. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

1) Ask Zayat or Coolmore. Not me. I heard rumors of $20MM - $40 MM but will never pretent to know the amount.

2) Liam earned $550,000 for his win. $2,750,000 to the victor of the BCC. Do you want to use 10%? $55K VS. $275K....

Not a large difference when compared to #1......

3) Not even I, could see a track do something afoul to make a chalk win, so that a gift shop sells more memorabilia. Sorry buddy.....

:D

I'm not suggesting the race was a setup so they could sell a few more t shirts, I was just asking IF they sold items with APs name or likeness in the gift shop, because if they did, an AP win certainly caused more sales.

[Tall One]

Good question.


Answer--In this game, you take the money where you can get it. No different than War Emblem being sold, or even Arthur Hancock selling Sunday Silence to the Japanese. LM's connections gave their horse the best chance for a win, and in turn it was also what was best for them. They took home the winner's share of a million dollar purse by avoiding a race where there were some doubts, and instead chose an easier option. I mean, what sounds better on a stallion's sheet...ran against AP so EMD & SRU won't cry conspiracy, :) , or winner of the 2015 BC Dirt Mile?

It was the right business decision.

[EMD4ME]

Answer--In this game, you take the money where you can get it. No different than War Emblem being sold, or even Arthur Hancock selling Sunday Silence to the Japanese. LM's connections gave their horse the best chance for a win, and in turn it was also what was best for them. They took home the winner's share of a million dollar purse by avoiding a race where there were some doubts, and instead chose an easier option. I mean, what sounds better on a stallion's sheet...ran against AP so EMD & SRU won't cry conspiracy, :) , or winner of the 2015 BC Dirt Mile?

It was the right business decision.

IMHO, it wasn't before the BCC or after it. Won't belabor the point too much. Enough said.

If it was the easy money they were after, according to you. Why not run in the BCC and then the Cigar Mile ($500K pot)? Get $300K in the Cigar Mile after making a conservative $250K in the BCC (assuming running 4th). Same thing but give the horse a chance at eteranal glory and the owners a chance at some REAL bucks, both in purse $ and breeding $.

[Tall One]

IMHO, it wasn't before the BCC or after it. Won't belabor the point too much. Enough said.

If it was the easy money they were after, according to you. Why not run in the BCC and then the Cigar Mile ($500K pot)? Get $300K in the Cigar Mile after making a conservative $250K in the BCC (assuming running 4th). Same thing but give the horse a chance at eteranal glory and the owners a chance at some REAL bucks, both in purse $ and breeding $.


I could see that as an option. It'd be great for Aqueduct, the on track fans, and would probably insure whats usually a solid card before the Inner.

But, otoh, you have the BC trophy on the mantel, a nice pile of scratch in the bank, and the horse goes out on top.

[EMD4ME]

I could see that as an option. It'd be great for Aqueduct, the on track fans, and would probably insure whats usually a solid card before the Inner.

But, otoh, you have the BC trophy on the mantel, a nice pile of scratch in the bank, and the horse goes out on top.

A nice pile of scratch in the bank ! ;)

[Pick6]

My reference for speed horses is the 1968 Suburban where Dr. Fager, carrying 135 lbs. ran 1:09.2 against Hedevar and lost by 2 lengths to Damascus, who broke the track record and ran 1:59.1.

I could only imagine what Dr. Fager would have done to this year's BCC field.

p.s. My vote for Keeneland every year for Breeders Cup.

[keithw84]

AP is the first horse to ever win five million-dollar races in a year, right? (I believe Point Given won 4 and that hadn't been topped)

Also, I assume AP has the record for most money won by a 3YO or through the end of his 3YO season. Guessing he's close to Curlin and Skip Away on the all time earnings list as well.

[nearco]

I believe his last 6 wins were all worth $1m or more.

AK Derby $1m
KY Derby $2m
Preakness $1m
Belmont $1.5m
Haskell $1.75m
Classic $5m

He is 4th in overall earnings for North American trained horses.

[nearco]

Actually, the Preakness was also a $1.5m race this year.

[Pick6]

Smarty Jones 3YO earnings was about $7.5M. With the BCC win AP passed Smarty Jones at $8.3M.

[nearco]

Smarty Jones' earnings were inflated by the $5m bonus. Take that out and he made $2.6m for his 3yo year

[Pick6]

Official money though. Many horses earned bonuses in the past, e.g. Alysheba, Spend a Buck, etc.

[ultracapper]

With all due respect Ultracapper.....

Did you mean $550,000 1st place prize in a $920,000 race?

The Mile is not a $2MM. Heck it's not even 60% of $1MM.

He really couldn't find a way to think he'd run 4th in the BCC ($300K) or 3rd at $500,000 WHILE taking a chance at immortality, higher breeding fees and $2,750,000?

If the Mile is $1M and not $2M, that is my mistake. As a handicapper, I have trouble criticizing connections that spot their horses properly.

[NY BRED]

I believe his last 6 wins were all worth $1m or more.

AK Derby $1m
KY Derby $2m
Preakness $1m
Belmont $1.5m
Haskell $1.75m
Classic $5m

He is 4th in overall earnings for North American trained horses.

WASN'T/ISN'T THER A BONUS AWARD FOR WINNING THE TRIPLE CROWN?

[classhandicapper]

American Pharoah vs. Liam's Map at 8F or 9F would have been interesting. At 10F I think AP would have owned him.

[LottaKash]

American Pharoah vs. Liam's Map at 8F or 9F would have been interesting. At 10F I think AP would have owned him.

There is no way to know this for sure now, but I truly believe that those swift early fractions that many have said were missing in AP's resume, would have wowed the chit out of the non believers, if he ran at the shorter distances this year... But, he spent all his time working on his triple crown distances..

Personally, I would have loved to see him at a mile, I think he would be scary fast as a miler....

Of course I am just going by the foundational splits that he produced on the engine as a 2yo..Based on that tho one could certainly buy into the fact that he could surely better those numbers as a more mature racehorse at 3..

[dilanesp]

I believe his last 6 wins were all worth $1m or more.

AK Derby $1m
KY Derby $2m
Preakness $1m
Belmont $1.5m
Haskell $1.75m
Classic $5m

He is 4th in overall earnings for North American trained horses.

This is meaningless unless you adjust for inflation.

[PaceAdvantage]

You want MY HONEST answer? Of course not, because when Beholder defected and Smooth Roller defected, the public pressure would have been there to run in the Classic.

That wasn't part of the script. Errr. I mean plan. Errr, I mean yeah WWE is 100% real all the time.It's very hard to believe you're a big bettor and winning player when you post shit like this.

You're lucky there are people whom I trust who have told me otherwise... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

We all know why.....The plan was in place to NOT run in the BCC no matter what. You do realize Liam's Map and Honor Code have the same ownership interests...

So...you have Honor Code, much better suited to 10f than 8f in the classic, and Liam's Map, better suited to 8f than 10f in the mile. And you try and win BOTH races...

Owners and trainers aren't 100% geniuses at all times. Perhaps they made a mistake this time in their assessment of Liam's Map. But the jury is still WAY OUT regarding his ability to go a mile and a quarter. Maybe they thought the risk of him running up the track and off the board in the classic outweighed the thought that he had a super-duper chance to win the mile. So they went with the option that gave them the best chance to win both races...in their minds.

That's certainly a helluva lot more plausible than what you're trying to pass around.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wasnt someone here saying he beyered a 116?

It's 120 now?You're gonna trust the guy who posted this shortly after the race as opposed to trusting Beyer himself. The 116 was obviously not true.

I questioned the 116 number from the start, and in fact, posted shortly after that it's a travesty it's not going to be around 120. Turns out, I was right while being clueless at the same time. :lol:

[EMD4ME]

It's very hard to believe you're a big bettor and winning player when you post shit like this.

You're lucky there are people whom I trust who have told me otherwise... :lol:

Glad you checked me out. I have nothing to hide. Plus whodoyoulike thinks I am the mad scientist, was the mad scientist, know the mad scientist or something like that.

Can you please dispell that? I am contrarian and unique but that's going too far :lol:

[EMD4ME]

You do realize Liam's Map and Honor Code have the same ownership interests...

So...you have Honor Code, much better suited to 10f than 8f in the classic, and Liam's Map, better suited to 8f than 10f in the mile. And you try and win BOTH races...

Owners and trainers aren't 100% geniuses at all times. Perhaps they made a mistake this time in their assessment of Liam's Map. But the jury is still WAY OUT regarding his ability to go a mile and a quarter. Maybe they thought the risk of him running up the track and off the board in the classic outweighed the thought that he had a super-duper chance to win the mile. So they went with the option that gave them the best chance to win both races...in their minds.

That's certainly a helluva lot more plausible than what you're trying to pass around.

I do realize that and both had Javier as well, not that that matters.

If I own HC and Liam's Map, that's a perfect combo for the BCC. One to try and wire or press to wire and one from behind.

By taking Liam out they gave HC no shot.

You're actually arguing my side right now ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

So now you're trying to say they wanted to waste Liam as a rabbit for HC? :lol:

You want to take back that last sentence?

[EMD4ME]

So now you're trying to say they wanted to waste Liam as a rabbit for HC? :lol:

You want to take back that last sentence?

Hell NO :lol: ....They could have run 1-2. Liam leading and putting away all chasers and HC rallying into a real pace.

[Stillriledup]

You're gonna trust the guy who posted this shortly after the race as opposed to trusting Beyer himself. The 116 was obviously not true.

I questioned the 116 number from the start, and in fact, posted shortly after that it's a travesty it's not going to be around 120. Turns out, I was right while being clueless at the same time. :lol:

I'm not trusting or not not trusting anyone, I saw 116 posted here, I'm not the board police which means I don't run and fact check everything people post, I just assume they're posting correct info, nothing more than that I could do.

[dilanesp]

I'm not trusting or not not trusting anyone, I saw 116 posted here, I'm not the board police which means I don't run and fact check everything people post, I just assume they're posting correct info, nothing more than that I could do.

FWIW, when I saw American Pharaoh ran 2:00 flat over that track-- which was not very fast and probably had a high variant-- I knew that it was a monster figure.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not trusting or not not trusting anyone, I saw 116 posted here, I'm not the board police which means I don't run and fact check everything people post, I just assume they're posting correct info, nothing more than that I could do.To be fair, he did say preliminary. And there isn't that huge a difference between 116 and 120. 120 just sounds nicer rolling off the tongue.

[Stillriledup]

To be fair, he did say preliminary. And there isn't that huge a difference between 116 and 120. 120 just sounds nicer rolling off the tongue.

One Beyer point is equal to what? I'm not familiar w the 'scale'.

[PaceAdvantage]

One Beyer point is equal to what? I'm not familiar w the 'scale'.cj knows...I forget and am too lazy to try and look it up

at 10f it's not all THAT much

[EMD4ME]

cj knows...I forget and am too lazy to try and look it up

at 10f it's not all THAT much

In 2015, at 10F I believe it's 1.6 points for every length behind the winner.

Used to be larger in the past.

Before you ask SRU, yes Effinex got a 110. The Effinex.

[thaskalos]

It's very hard to believe you're a big bettor and winning player when you post shit like this.

You're lucky there are people whom I trust who have told me otherwise... :lol:
I am starting to doubt that he even BETS. With a full-time job as a bank executive, and with all the posting that he does here...where the heck could he find the time for actual horse playing?

I can picture EMD4ME at work and at the track...keeping one eye on the "work at hand"...and the other eye on a laptop perpetually logged onto Paceadvantage. :)

[Stillriledup]

In 2015, at 10F I believe it's 1.6 points for every length behind the winner.

Used to be larger in the past.

Before you ask SRU, yes Effinex got a 110. The Effinex.

What Beyer did Tonalist and Frosted get, do you know?

[nijinski]

AP got an RPR at Racing Post of 138 .

[elysiantraveller]

I am starting to doubt that he even BETS. With a full-time job as a bank executive, and with all the posting that he does here...where the heck could he find the time for actual horse playing?

I can picture EMD4ME at work and at the track...keeping one eye on the "work at hand"...and the other eye on a laptop perpetually logged onto Paceadvantage. :)

Bank Executive?... I find it hard to believe he is at work then. Not a lot of banks I know would allow access to horse gambling forum. At least not the ones I've worked at. :)

[Stillriledup]

Bank Executive?... I find it hard to believe he is at work then. Not a lot of banks I know would allow access to horse gambling forum. At least not the ones I've worked at. :)

You mean I can gamble here? I've been doing it all wrong then! :D

[whodoyoulike]

I am starting to doubt that he even BETS. With a full-time job as a bank executive, and with all the posting that he does here...where the heck could he find the time for actual horse playing?

I can picture EMD4ME at work and at the track...keeping one eye on the "work at hand"...and the other eye on a laptop perpetually logged onto Paceadvantage. :)

Just a suggestion, look up "Narcisstic" better yet here is a Google link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


I also thought Mad Scientist was Narcisstic.

[thaskalos]

Just a suggestion, look up "Narcisstic" better yet here is a Google link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Googling these personality disorders won't help you. Find yourself a psychiatrist...before it's too late.

[classhandicapper]

AP got an RPR at Racing Post of 138 .

He got the highest rating for a US horse since 1988. They rated him above Ghostzapper. That should stir the pot.

[thaskalos]

Here's an article list. He got the highest rating for a US horse since 1988.

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/#newsArchiveTabs=newsArchiveTab
Where....I don't see it.

[whodoyoulike]

Googling these personality disorders won't help you. Find yourself a psychiatrist...before it's too late.

You may also want to carefully read it then look in a mirror

[classhandicapper]

Where....I don't see it.

Do a search on American Pharoah in the archive.

[thaskalos]

Do a search on American Pharoah in the archive.
Ah, sorry. I am still new at this hi-tech stuff.

[thaskalos]

You may also want to carefully read it then look in a mirror
You are so witty... :kiss: