Show betting question/opportunity

[Neumeier]

I use an online sportsbook. I bet 99% sports as I try to stay away from the races.

Today I went on to look and I was shocked when I saw it accepts betting from every horse track, dog track, and jai alai. The money on the site doesn't go into the pools (this account is on credit and you meet the local guy). I did some research and some of the show pools on the smaller tracks are under $100 (example race 12 saturday there was $56 in the show pool). There are regularly place and show payoffs that are $0 because there was no money on the dog.

I could easily manipulate the pool, ie: put $20 on 7 dogs at the track and put $200 to show on the 8th dog on the sportsbook. I obviously wouldn't make it as obvious as this.

Is this morally wrong, or fair game? What is my best approach to this?

A couple points:

a. I called the guy the other day and asked if there is a limit to how much you can win per race and he said "no limit"

b. The guy isn't very knowledgeable about racing. He knows a lot about sports, but by our conversations he knows very little about racing and wouldn't understand the pools like a horse player.

[Stillriledup]

I use an online sportsbook. I bet 99% sports as I try to stay away from the races.

Today I went on to look and I was shocked when I saw it accepts betting from every horse track, dog track, and jai alai. The money on the site doesn't go into the pools (this account is on credit and you meet the local guy). I did some research and some of the show pools on the smaller tracks are under $100 (example race 12 saturday there was $56 in the show pool). There are regularly place and show payoffs that are $0 because there was no money on the dog.

I could easily manipulate the pool, ie: put $20 on 7 dogs at the track and put $200 to show on the 8th dog on the sportsbook. I obviously wouldn't make it as obvious as this.

Is this morally wrong, or fair game? What is my best approach to this?

A couple points:

a. I called the guy the other day and asked if there is a limit to how much you can win per race and he said "no limit"

b. The guy isn't very knowledgeable about racing. He knows a lot about sports, but by our conversations he knows very little about racing and wouldn't understand the pools like a horse player.

They'll be onto you pretty quickly and either won't pay or terminate your account or both.

It's not morally wrong if you're not cancelling the bets, you're allowed to bet anything you want.

This show manipulation tactic was successfully employed many decades ago in vegas, people would bett no shot horses or dogs to show and then bet the right horses/dogs to show w sportsbook.

I think vegas caught on quick and stopped taking bets.

[no breathalyzer]

:lol: not sure what sports book you use but all the good ones have caps on lower handle tracks.. and if they even suspect any funny business you will get the kibosh real fast.

[Neumeier]

:lol: not sure what sports book you use but all the good ones have caps on lower handle tracks.. and if they even suspect any funny business you will get the kibosh real fast.

You can view the pools on a lot of these tracks so I could easily be making a wager on the smallest show pool. I saw there was a $39 show payoff at a track last week. Maybe I can get 1 or 2 hits in without it being noticed for a few hundred bucks. Nothing major. :lol:

[menifee]

This happened at Thistledowns a few years back. Here is a link to the article about it.

http://www.drf.com/news/thistledown-irregular-betting-prompts-investigation-mondays-fifth-race


At tracks with small pools, you could manipulate the odds so that you could take advantage of the off-shore book. The problem is they will learn about it real quick and you probably will not get paid.

[Neumeier]

This happened at Thistledowns a few years back. Here is a link to the article about it.

http://www.drf.com/news/thistledown-irregular-betting-prompts-investigation-mondays-fifth-race


At tracks with small pools, you could manipulate the odds so that you could take advantage of the off-shore book. The problem is they will learn about it real quick and you probably will not get paid.

Great article. Love reading stuff like that.

[pandy]

I use an online sportsbook. I bet 99% sports as I try to stay away from the races.

Today I went on to look and I was shocked when I saw it accepts betting from every horse track, dog track, and jai alai. The money on the site doesn't go into the pools (this account is on credit and you meet the local guy). I did some research and some of the show pools on the smaller tracks are under $100 (example race 12 saturday there was $56 in the show pool). There are regularly place and show payoffs that are $0 because there was no money on the dog.

I could easily manipulate the pool, ie: put $20 on 7 dogs at the track and put $200 to show on the 8th dog on the sportsbook. I obviously wouldn't make it as obvious as this.

Is this morally wrong, or fair game? What is my best approach to this?

A couple points:

a. I called the guy the other day and asked if there is a limit to how much you can win per race and he said "no limit"

b. The guy isn't very knowledgeable about racing. He knows a lot about sports, but by our conversations he knows very little about racing and wouldn't understand the pools like a horse player.

You will not get away with it.

[green80]

you could try it, but you still have to pick the right show horse to bet with the sportsbook. I don't think you can get by with this but maybe once, then they ( the sportsbook) may not pay you.

[green80]

I could easily manipulate the pool, ie: put $20 on 7 dogs at the track and put $200 to show on the 8th dog on the sportsbook. I obviously wouldn't make it as obvious as this.

or just put your $140 on a dog that is sure to run out, should have the same effect, and won't look as bad.

[thaskalos]

With an online racebook, the neat trick isn't to put one over on them. The REAL trick is to scam them...and then get PAID. Sometimes they'll refuse to pay you...even though you've done NOTHING wrong.

I have been dropped without getting paid by overseas sportsbooks, under the excuse that I was a "pro player"...even thought I had been an overall LOSER on their site.

[horses4courses]

You will not get away with it.

You might, but for such a short period of time before
being cut off that any gains you might make would be minuscule.
That's assuming they would pay up at all.

Most players don't get it.
That comes from years of trying to make an easy buck
from their side of the counter, or telephone.

Bookmaking is a business, whether done legally, or otherwise.
Reputable ones will give players a chance, but the object of
running that business is to make a profit.

Don't expect them to take odds/pool manipulation lying down.
Why should they? They are not running a charity.

[Neumeier]

Keep in mind. The site isn't paying me. I'm getting paid by the bookie.

I bet golf on this site and I got 12:1 on the field. I knew there was no way in hell that could ever be correct. I got 119 golfers vs the 25 listed. Had 2 good scores on that. I'll let everyone know how I make out with this. I am going to do some bets on weds night.

If you go on this site and deposit money the dog tracks are not offered. It was probably my bookie who added them or didn't remove them.

[lamboguy]

With an online racebook, the neat trick isn't to put one over on them. The REAL trick is to scam them...and then get PAID. Sometimes they'll refuse to pay you...even though you've done NOTHING wrong.

I have been dropped without getting paid by overseas sportsbooks, under the excuse that I was a "pro player"...even thought I had been an overall LOSER on their site.today those sites are nothing but a waste of time. but back in the day earlier this century before 9/11 i was betting with Pinacle. they were excellent. you couldn't manipulate pools with them, but you could win up to $25,000 on a maiden race at Santa Anita or New York. they were letting you bet that kind of money and give you back a 4 % rebate if i remember correctly.

the check always came 3 days later without any problem. after getting stung a few times, i know my money wound up in the window along with some of theirs that they added on. then i just quit them.

[thaskalos]

today those sites are nothing but a waste of time. but back in the day earlier this century before 9/11 i was betting with Pinacle. they were excellent. you couldn't manipulate pools with them, but you could win up to $25,000 on a maiden race at Santa Anita or New York. they were letting you bet that kind of money and give you back a 4 % rebate if i remember correctly.

the check always came 3 days later without any problem. after getting stung a few times, i know my money wound up in the window along with some of theirs that they added on. then i just quit them.

I was betting with Pinnacle until the government shut-down...and I was very happy with them. I think I was getting a rebate of 8%...but I didn't make any win bets. And then, when Pinnacle refused to cater to U.S. bettors any longer...I moved to Bodog; a laughable operation if ever there was one.

I remember once when I waited over three weeks for check from them...and then, on my way out of the house one day...I saw the check in my mailbox and took it to the bank. That same night when I returned home...I noticed that Bodog had sent me an email. The email read:

"Dear sir:

Please be advised that a check for your recent withdrawal has been mailed out to you...and you should be receiving it in a few days. But we regret to inform you that a mistake was made in the process...and the check that you will receive is "non-negotiable"...and should be voided instead of being cashed. Please destroy the check...and a new check will be sent to you promptly.

We regret any inconvenience that out mistake may have caused."

Of course, since I had already deposited the check, there was no way that I could destroy it...and I was getting ready for a notice from my bank about the bounced check. But the check went through just fine...and no mention was ever made from Bodog about that "other" check that they were supposedly mailing out to me. It turns out that they were just stalling me for more time.

There is a lot of garbage out there masquerading as reputable sportsbooks. Let the buyer beware. :)

[lamboguy]

there were quite a few beat artists in the off shore joints. but there were a few good ones like Pinacle, Bet Cris and Olympic Sports (the greek).

its tough to win these days no matter what the rebate is when you have to bet into the pools.

[SuperPickle]

Wow I'm kind of freaked out by this thread because the NYT just did a long form piece on Pinnacle...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/us/pinnacle-sports-online-sports-betting.html?_r=0

Very ironic.

Oh and ADW's contracts with host tracks include an agreement that ADW's are charged back any minus show pool bets that come from there customers. So if you have an ADW that will take show bets eventually if you win they will come after you. Unless they like losing money.

[davew]

You can view the pools on a lot of these tracks so I could easily be making a wager on the smallest show pool. I saw there was a $39 show payoff at a track last week. Maybe I can get 1 or 2 hits in without it being noticed for a few hundred bucks. Nothing major. :lol:


Easier said than done - that $39 dollar pay-off had less than 1% of the show pool and at least $1 bet on it (some dog tracks have $1 minimums). There are enough people watching the pools to fill in the 'overlays' caused by bets that are out of proportion for the probabilities.

Dogs also are not as consistent as horses ->
1- the grading system automatically keeps races closer competitively
2- in a 30 second race, it is harder to overcome a problem

[tophatmert]

If this guy pays you when you win and you pay him when you lose why would you want to risk losing that relationship for a few hundred dollars ? Action like this tells the BM what type of player you are -the kind he doesn't need.

[castaway01]

If this guy pays you when you win and you pay him when you lose why would you want to risk losing that relationship for a few hundred dollars ? Action like this tells the BM what type of player you are -the kind he doesn't need.

This is the correct answer. If you like your current setup, no sense jeopardizing it when they probably won't pay you for whatever pool manipulation move you make anyway.

[Neumeier]

This is the correct answer. If you like your current setup, no sense jeopardizing it when they probably won't pay you for whatever pool manipulation move you make anyway.

I don't really care either way. If for some reason I got shutoff I would just deposit onto an online sportsbook.

SO i ended up testing this last night since i was antsy to try it. I actually did it on Win and Place and didn't do show since that would be the most obvious. I bet the other 6 dogs to win and place in the parimutuel and bet 2 dogs to WP with the bookie. They were both around 4-1. The race went off and one of my dogs won. They went back to the odds and my dog was 20-1!!! (the other one was 18-1)

He paid $42 to win and $26 to place. So i know this does work. I think the key is that I have to keep betting dogs consistently. I can't just make a bet here and there and hit it for a huge score.

[green80]

If someone else starts doing that, there goes your edge

[Neumeier]

I was going to try this for real saturday night. I have a bankroll where I can take a shot. I just moved and my local casino doesn't take Tuscon greyhounds. That is the track I need to do it on

Does anyone know where I can find a site that accepts bets on Tuscon and the money goes into the pools

Thanks

[Neumeier]

I found a place that takes the track i'm looking for.

What would be the best way to do this?

Bet the dog I like with my book to show, and bet the same amount on the other 7 dogs, or stagger the show money bets by quality of dogs?

Any info appreciated.

[thaskalos]

I was going to try this for real saturday night. I have a bankroll where I can take a shot. I just moved and my local casino doesn't take Tuscon greyhounds. That is the track I need to do it on

Does anyone know where I can find a site that accepts bets on Tuscon and the money goes into the pools

Thanks
You started this thread 21 days ago...and you said that you had a bookie who wasn't too knowledgeable about horses or dogs. In post #20 here, you said that you tried your scheme with real money and it worked...and you got paid.

Now you say that you "moved"...and you are looking for a new sportsbook. You MOVED...and you didn't know about it on 10/26, when you started this thread? Or were you trying to scam the bookie and disappear...knowing that you would be moving anyway?

You are sounding awful desperate here, Neumeier. These are SCAMS that you are trying to pull...and i doubt that anyone here would be too eager to help you. And you ask in your initial post here if this is "morally wrong"? :rolleyes: If you were the bookie...would you consider this scheme of yours to be "morally acceptable"?

[thaskalos]

They'll be onto you pretty quickly and either won't pay or terminate your account or both.

It's not morally wrong if you're not cancelling the bets, you're allowed to bet anything you want.

This show manipulation tactic was successfully employed many decades ago in vegas, people would bett no shot horses or dogs to show and then bet the right horses/dogs to show w sportsbook.

I think vegas caught on quick and stopped taking bets.

I don't understand. Manipulating the pools is not "morally wrong"? If this is true...then, why are we so upset when we are on the RECEIVING end of this manipulation? Or is it "moral" when WE do it...but "immoral" when others do it to us?

[Seabiscuit@AR]

I would not bother with manipulating the pools on this dog race myself. As others have said the bookie will work it out quickly and ban you. This kind of thing is not really playing fair with the bookie. You should play fair with your bookie if you want to get fair treatment in return

But it has been done successfully before. Fletch and Eddie once took a bookie for 700K using this exact play

http://www.racingandsports.com.au/en/racing/-story-89037#kjrBMvDEbldbuGJC.97

[Neumeier]

I tried this last friday and it was a complete disaster. I didn't factor in the possibility of never picking a dog that came in top 3.

The first race was absolutely perfect. I put $50 to show on 2-8 and the 1 had a 5 length lead and faded badly to 5th. The show pool had $390 on it and only $4 was on the 1. I would have made a fortune.

The next 4 races the same thing happened. I bet $50 on 7 dogs to show and couldn't get my dog to finish in the top 3. No matter what I did I lost.

By the time I finally hit one people had caught on to my show bets and there was all sorts of money in the pools. I took a beating. Lost about $1500 between track and sports book with this experiment.

Last night I tried it again, but with 2 dogs.

Race 1 I put $50 to show on 1,2,4,5,7,8 and bet $200 to show with sports book with 3 and 6 (2 best dogs in the race)

It came in 5-3-6

The show pool had $380 in it and the 3 and 6 only had $8 and $10 on them. I think the payoffs were crappy. They paid $15 and $18.

I thought it might set off alarms that the 3 paid $2.60 to place and $15 to show but I got the money in my account.

I don't feel bad about doing this angle because I have the type of bookie that texts me monday morning about meeting up when I lose, but is MIA every time I win.

[Stillriledup]

I tried this last friday and it was a complete disaster. I didn't factor in the possibility of never picking a dog that came in top 3.

The first race was absolutely perfect. I put $50 to show on 2-8 and the 1 had a 5 length lead and faded badly to 5th. The show pool had $390 on it and only $4 was on the 1. I would have made a fortune.

The next 4 races the same thing happened. I bet $50 on 7 dogs to show and couldn't get my dog to finish in the top 3. No matter what I did I lost.

By the time I finally hit one people had caught on to my show bets and there was all sorts of money in the pools. I took a beating. Lost about $1500 between track and sports book with this experiment.

Last night I tried it again, but with 2 dogs.

Race 1 I put $50 to show on 1,2,4,5,7,8 and bet $200 to show with sports book with 3 and 6 (2 best dogs in the race)

It came in 5-3-6

The show pool had $380 in it and the 3 and 6 only had $8 and $10 on them. I think the payoffs were crappy. They paid $15 and $18.

I thought it might set off alarms that the 3 paid $2.60 to place and $15 to show but I got the money in my account.

I don't feel bad about doing this angle because I have the type of bookie that texts me monday morning about meeting up when I lose, but is MIA every time I win.

What track was this?

[davew]

What track was this?


Tucson

[Stillriledup]

Tucson

Thanks.

[Nitro]

I don't understand. Manipulating the pools is not "morally wrong"? If this is true...then, why are we so upset when we are on the RECEIVING end of this manipulation? Or is it "moral" when WE do it...but "immoral" when others do it to us?

And I don’t understand why anyone who understands how the game is played would be surprised or dismayed that pool manipulation goes on all the time. There’s nothing wrong with trying to find an edge when there’s money involved. After all the last time I looked this is only a GAME that we’re playing. Betting decoys are created whenever someone is trying to sway the betting activities away from their own betting interest. The ploy is simply an attempt to increase the return value if their bet wins. A player’s recognition would be pretty much the same as taking advantage of a subtle track bias, or an unbalanced roulette wheel. In other words the savvy player with perhaps more awareness is able to take advantage of the situation.

This game is not just about the horses. It’s about those who control them and who just might have more information than what's being published. Anyone who believes that the term “public money” is a literal description of the betting activities and resulting pools is very naive to what I believe is the most important part of this GAME.
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[thaskalos]

And I don’t understand why anyone who understands how the game is played would be surprised or dismayed that pool manipulation goes on all the time. There’s nothing wrong with trying to find an edge when there’s money involved. After all the last time I looked this is only a GAME that we’re playing. Betting decoys are created whenever someone is trying to sway the betting activities away from their own betting interest. The ploy is simply an attempt to increase the return value if their bet wins. A player’s recognition would be pretty much the same as taking advantage of a subtle track bias, or an unbalanced roulette wheel. In other words the savvy player with perhaps more awareness is able to take advantage of the situation.

This game is not just about the horses. It’s about those who control them and who just might have more information than what's being published. Anyone who believes that the term “public money” is a literal description of the betting activities and resulting pools is very naive to what I believe is the most important part of this GAME.
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You and I obviously have very different definitions for what is implied by the word "GAME". To me...in order for an activity to be called a "GAME"...there must be certain rules in place which the "players" have agreed to follow, in order for the game to attain the longevity that these players would like the game to have. And the type of pool manipulation that the original poster here suggests clearly does not fall within the boundaries of the game's rules...in my opinion.

The OP asked if his actions were "morally wrong"...and I just asked him if he would deem such actions "immoral", if he was the bookie who is on the RECEIVING end of this sort of pool manipulation scam. Was there something wrong with that?

Trying to get an unfair edge in a game may be understandable...but we shouldn't pretend that we don't know if it's "morally wrong" or not.

[Stillriledup]

I don't understand. Manipulating the pools is not "morally wrong"? If this is true...then, why are we so upset when we are on the RECEIVING end of this manipulation? Or is it "moral" when WE do it...but "immoral" when others do it to us?

Sorry for delay in response, didnt see this.

While the OPs situation is being described as 'manipulation' it's not really manipulation. You're not ever on the 'receiving end' of a guy who is placing bets into your parimutuel pool and leaving them there. Now, if he cancelled the tickets, it affects you, but what he's doing has no affect on you, he's placing bets and keeping them.

[happy camper]

Most books have something about pool manipulation in their t&c's. I understand it is a pay per head joint from your local, but they could use that against you if they catch on. Depending who your local is, there may be more repercussions.

[castaway01]

Most books have something about pool manipulation in their t&c's. I understand it is a pay per head joint from your local, but they could use that against you if they catch on. Depending who your local is, there may be more repercussions.

Based on his success so far, it sounds like the bookie will drive him to the track and buy him a beer while he "manipulates the pools".