GAMBLING

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Are successful gamblers born or made? That is the question. Do these rare successful players possess an innate ability to deal with the myriad psychological difficulties that are a part of profitable gambling?

I have been around a handful, if that, of successful long term horseplayers who absolutely operated at the race track as best described 'machine like'. They had the total package of skill, patience, confidence, courage and LOSS ACEPTANCE. These individuals were always in the middle, never too high with emotions and never too low, as a matter of fact some showed no emotion at all as best as I could observe.

I never asked about how they learned their trade but I admired the discipline and their ability to play their game plan day after day with out a fraction of deviation. All were win bettors, with the selective exotic wager to supplement the staple win bet. Quality over quantity.

Now I have to say that I have zero proof that these men were long term winners, however, an old timer who has passed on assured me that these few individuals were the rare men who made there sole existence from racetrack participation.

The only regret I have is not to ask about how they prepared themselves for the long term success ie. psychological aspects which are the doom of the majority of highly skilled handicappers. The question were they born or made???

[thaskalos]

IMO...you can become a profitable gambler through sheer determination and hard work...but, just as in the field of athletics...there is an "elite level" in gambling which avails itself only to those who have that extra "something", which MUST be innate...because it doesn't seem to exist in us mere mortals.

Horse-playing is a closely-guarded gambling endeavor, and we never really get to see our opponent's skill in full display, so...I can't say that I have ever seen a horseplayer whom I would consider to be in that "genius" level. But I have also spent a lot of time around poker tables...and poker is a lot more "open" as a game...with the opponent's skill being much more visible for others to see. And I can state unequivocally that I have met several poker players whom I would gladly drive across town to avoid.

So...to paraphrase:

You can win in gambling through sheer work and determination, but you need true TALENT in order to make it to the "top". And I have regretfully come to the conclusion that this sort of talent is inborn.

Unfair...I know. And no-one wishes that things were different, more than I.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

IMO...you can become a profitable gambler through sheer determination and hard work...but, just as in the field of athletics...there is an "elite level" in gambling which avails itself only to those who have that extra "something", which MUST be innate...because it doesn't seem to exist in us mere mortals.

Horse-playing is a closely-guarded gambling endeavor, and we never really get to see our opponent's skill in full display, so...I can't say that I have ever seen a horseplayer whom I would consider to be in that "genius" level. But I have also spent a lot of time around poker tables...and poker is a lot more "wide-open" as a game...with the opponent's skill being much more visible for others to see. And I can state unequivocally that I have met several poker players whom I would gladly drive across town to avoid.

So...to paraphrase:

You can win in gambling through sheer work and determination, but you need true TALENT in order to make it to the "top". And I have regretfully come to the determination that this sort of talent is inborn.

Unfair...I know. And no-one wishes that things were different, more than I.

Interesting perspective Thask, very well thought out and you are a believer that the talent is born. I really don't have an answer to this question, at this point.

[Stillriledup]

IMO...you can become a profitable gambler through sheer determination and hard work...but, just as in the field of athletics...there is an "elite level" in gambling which avails itself only to those who have that extra "something", which MUST be innate...because it doesn't seem to exist in us mere mortals.

Horse-playing is a closely-guarded gambling endeavor, and we never really get to see our opponent's skill in full display, so...I can't say that I have ever seen a horseplayer whom I would consider to be in that "genius" level. But I have also spent a lot of time around poker tables...and poker is a lot more "open" as a game...with the opponent's skill being much more visible for others to see. And I can state unequivocally that I have met several poker players whom I would gladly drive across town to avoid.

So...to paraphrase:

You can win in gambling through sheer work and determination, but you need true TALENT in order to make it to the "top". And I have regretfully come to the conclusion that this sort of talent is inborn.

Unfair...I know. And no-one wishes that things were different, more than I.

I think you have to be born with a talent that gives you the ability to 'see' something that can't be taught that's required to separate you from the masses.

It really comes down to the fact that winning gamblers are so few and far between that in order to become one of them, you have to be born with something. If winning was teachable I think a lot more people would win.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I agree. The total package (successful long term player), has to possess NO WEAKNESS, similar to a professional bowler and the task of being on top of your game at all times ie qualifying and producing and winning the top prize.

[cbp]

I think you have to be born with a talent that gives you the ability to 'see' something that can't be taught that's required to separate you from the masses.

It really comes down to the fact that winning gamblers are so few and far between that in order to become one of them, you have to be born with something. If winning was teachable I think a lot more people would win.

Who would teach them if so few are able to win? Probably all of the 'teachers' (or perhaps, hawkers, is more apt) out there are not winners. People buy books, methods, programs, etc. from NON WINNERS. Are they then expected to become winners?

[thaskalos]

I agree. The total package (successful long term player), has to possess NO WEAKNESS, similar to a professional bowler and the task of being on top of your game at all times ie qualifying and producing and winning the top prize.

In your original post here, you said "Gambling"; you didn't specify "horse-race gambling".

If the gambling game isn't parimutuel...then you can win, even if you DO possess some "weaknesses". You just have to make sure that you are gambling with others who have even more weaknesses than YOU do.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

In your original post here, you said "Gambling"; you didn't specify "horse-race gambling".

If the gambling game isn't parimutuel...then you can win, even if you DO possess some "weaknesses". You just have to make sure that you are gambling with other who have even more weaknesses than YOU do.

I do refer to horseracing as a gambling vehicle because you are not playing against the house.

[thaskalos]

I do refer to horseracing as a gambling vehicle because you are not playing against the house.

When the "house" is removing as much as 30% from the mutuel pool...then the house becomes the gambler's most powerful adversary.

[thespaah]

I had a friend who was a consistent winner at the track. Every time we went, he stood an excellent chance of making a profit that day.
He worked on his handicapping with a focus like no one I knew.
I never could find out his methods. He flat would not divulge, Not only was he very good, he was equally superstitious. He would never allow anyone he was with a view of his notes on his racing form. He would look back behind him and if one of the people in his group was behind him on line, he'd switch lines. Like I said very superstitious.
I think his skills were just a talent he was born with.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

I had a friend who was a consistent winner at the track. Every time we went, he stood an excellent chance of making a profit that day.
He worked on his handicapping with a focus like no one I knew.
I never could find out his methods. He flat would not divulge, Not only was he very good, he was equally superstitious. He would never allow anyone he was with a view of his notes on his racing form. He would look back behind him and if one of the people in his group was behind him on line, he'd switch lines. Like I said very superstitious.
I think his skills were just a talent he was born with.

Hey whatever works for the individual. I remember one of the successful players told me once how it is important to have a brutal honesty about your strengths and weaknesses. How powerful is that!!!!!

[zico20]

I think you have to be born with a talent that gives you the ability to 'see' something that can't be taught that's required to separate you from the masses.

It really comes down to the fact that winning gamblers are so few and far between that in order to become one of them, you have to be born with something. If winning was teachable I think a lot more people would win.

Every thing you said, at least to me, is 100% accurate. Now the question is, if you are born with it, and I believe you are, where did it come from. If your parents didn't have it, then it had to be given to you from a higher power. Every person is born with something special, some just don't ever realize what their amazing talent is or don't know how to achieve maximum success from what has been given to them. :ThmbUp:

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Every thing you said, at least to me, is 100% accurate. Now the question is, if you are born with it, and I believe you are, where did it come from. If your parents didn't have it, then it had to be given to you from a higher power. Every person is born with something special, some just don't ever realize what their amazing talent is or don't know how to achieve maximum success from what has been given to them. :ThmbUp:

The theory that we are born with this talent is interesting to me simply because we are taught as children to succeed and do your best everyday so we look for success every day. Well we know for certain that a gambler can NEVER be successful and win every day so this successful gambler must accept his or her losing day and keep the focus on the following day and the next day and ...

[Stillriledup]

Who would teach them if so few are able to win? Probably all of the 'teachers' (or perhaps, hawkers, is more apt) out there are not winners. People buy books, methods, programs, etc. from NON WINNERS. Are they then expected to become winners?

You don't have to be able to win to teach it. Not too many hitting coaches in the MLB can hit a HR, but they can teach it.

It doesn't matter if the teacher wins or not, all that matters is his or her teachings and if the student can pick them up or not.

[thaskalos]

You don't have to be able to win to teach it. Not too many hitting coaches in the MLB can hit a HR, but they can teach it.

It doesn't matter if the teacher wins or not, all that matters is his or her teachings and if the student can pick them up or not.

In gambling...you can't take someone where you yourself haven't been. Unless you've been a winning gambler yourself...you can't possibly know for sure what winning entails. There are thousands of losing gamblers out there who THINK that they know why they lose. Some think that they are losing because they have no "discipline"...while others think that they lose because they "can't construct their bets the right way". All this "thinking" that they do is strictly "theoretical"...and they have no way of knowing if they are right or wrong, because, as losing gamblers, they don't really know what it is that the winners do. Only the WINNERS know for sure what winning really requires...and only the WINNERS are fit to teach the losers the "winning way".

All those "mentors" out there who are losing money gambling and yet presume to teach others how to win...are fooling themselves, as well as their "students".

It's like a virgin presuming to teach the art of lovemaking.

[ReplayRandall]

Only the WINNERS know for sure what winning really requires...and only the WINNERS are fit to teach the losers the "winning way".

Who classifies WINNERS? Is it other winners? What length of time of winning constitutes "know for sure"? Can't students surpass their teachers, even if they're both unproven winners themselves?

[thaskalos]

Who classifies WINNERS? Is it other winners? What length of time of winning constitutes "know for sure"? Can't students surpass their teachers, even if they're both unproven winners themselves?

The good thing about gambling is that there is no ambiguity about whether the gambler is a winner or a loser. Both the winners, and the losers, know who they are...even though the losers often like to play pretend.

When a losing gambler takes up the role of "mentor"...what can he possibly teach to his losing student? If he really knew what winning requires...then he would become a winner HIMSELF.

As the great physician Hippocrates quipped 2,500 years ago, when addressing the deceit in his profession: "Physician...heal THYSELF!"

[ReplayRandall]

That's why they call them "practicing Physicians". Every gambler has at least one time in their life when they've had a BREAKTHROUGH. Each subsequent revelation gets them closer to the coveted winner's status. I've met a couple of gamblers in my lifetime who were self-taught, having numerous breakthroughs early in their gambling lives. I guess maybe they were inherently winners from birth, blessed with the gift/mentality to see the narrow winning path and having the discipline to stay on it, never straying far from it.......

[thaskalos]

That's why they call them "practicing Physicians". Every gambler has at least one time in their life when they've had a BREAKTHROUGH. Each subsequent revelation gets them closer to the coveted winner's status. I've met a couple of gamblers in my lifetime who were self-taught, having numerous breakthroughs early in their gambling lives. I guess maybe they were inherently winners from birth, blessed with the gift/mentality to see the narrow winning path and having the discipline to stay on it, never straying far from it.......

I would wager that most winning gamblers are "self-taught"...simply because there are so few REAL mentors out there. Teaching yourself how to win can get very costly...but hooking up with the wrong "mentor" can prove even costlier.

[ReplayRandall]

simply because there are so few REAL mentors out there.

Even worse is when you OUTLIVE your own mentors.....You better be an established winner when this eventually happens, or sadly, it's all over.

[thaskalos]

Even worse is when you OUTLIVE your own mentors.....You better be an established winner when this eventually happens, or sadly, it's all over.

Well...that's bad...but it's got to be better than having your mentor outlive YOU... :)

[proximity]

the best bet i ever made was a loser.

it was at a party for the 49ers-broncos superbowl and there was a pool where you had to pick the winner and the score and as i looked at the list my eyes got big. EVERYONE (approx 50 people) had picked the 49ers!!!

so i waited to the last second and picked the broncos.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199001280den.htm

if you wait for the "win probability" graph to load in the above example you'll see that denver had approximately 17.6% chance to win. an incredible overlay!!

the point of my story isn't to brag about a loser or that i'm god's gift to gambling (i'm certainly not) but it's that i believe there is such a thing as level of natural instincts that i think a gambler should have if he's even going to be competitive at all in something where almost EVERYONE loses.

[Stillriledup]

In gambling...you can't take someone where you yourself haven't been. Unless you've been a winning gambler yourself...you can't possibly know for sure what winning entails. There are thousands of losing gamblers out there who THINK that they know why they lose. Some think that they are losing because they have no "discipline"...while others think that they lose because they "can't construct their bets the right way". All this "thinking" that they do is strictly "theoretical"...and they have no way of knowing if they are right or wrong, because, as losing gamblers, they don't really know what it is that the winners do. Only the WINNERS know for sure what winning really requires...and only the WINNERS are fit to teach the losers the "winning way".

All those "mentors" out there who are losing money gambling and yet presume to teach others how to win...are fooling themselves, as well as their "students".

It's like a virgin presuming to teach the art of lovemaking.

Cant you make the case though that a teacher can never really teach someone to win and the best they could really do is teach basics and put the student in the most favorable position to have the light go on ?

[thaskalos]

Cant you make the case though that a teacher can never really teach someone to win and the best they could really do is teach basics and put the student in the most favorable position to have the light go on ?
They say that "you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make it drink". Along the same vein...the true teacher can lead the student to water...but the false teacher can't. The drinking part is always left up to the student.

[Stillriledup]

They say that "you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make it drink". Along the same vein...the true teacher can lead the student to water...but the false teacher can't. The drinking part is always left up to the student.

Would a person who's destined to eventually figure it out need a teacher for anything other than speeding up the process a little bit?

Are there horseplayers out there who are trying to figure out how to be winners who are inherently winners but will never reach that promised land due to never having a mentor or teacher?

[thaskalos]

Would a person who's destined to eventually figure it out need a teacher for anything other than speeding up the process a little bit?

Are there horseplayers out there who are trying to figure out how to be winners who are inherently winners but will never reach that promised land due to never having a mentor or teacher?
I can't answer these questions with any degree of authority, SRU...because if I do, I will come across as some sort of gambling "know-it-all"...and I am no such thing.

The closest guy to a TRUE mentor that I've ever met during my gambling journey never really taught me anything...not anything that I didn't already know, anyway. He didn't TEACH me anything...but he SHOWED me something. He showed me, by using himself as an example...that it was INDEED possible, for a guy who liked to operate as a "lone wolf"...to succeed at the very thing that I always wanted to do. I got to watch a REAL "pro" operate...and saw how he conducted himself during the many stressful situations that serious gambling brings about in a player's life. It's one thing to READ about "discipline"...but it's an altogether DIFFERENT thing to actually SEE this discipline right in front of you, day after day. He never taught me a thing about the intricacies of the game...leaving me to figure it out all by myself. But he showed me, by example, that winning was POSSIBLE...and that was enough.

We may be willing to do all the hard work ourselves...but first we have to be assured that what we are trying to do is indeed DOABLE. And this "assurance" doesn't come from listening to phony experts spewing exaggerated claims and empty promises. It comes from actually watching REAL experts...at WORK!

And where can you find mentors like that?

[Track Collector]

Are successful gamblers born or made?

As already stated by others, I believe the answer is both, and if you are born with the right skill set (what ever that is defined to be), then one can hope to reach to very top level of handicapping success.

I do believe that one can learn "some" aspects from others to improve their game, even if the teacher is not an overall winner. (For example, learning to keep records, bet ticket structure, etc.

Learning from a true winner would of course seem like like the best way to go, but the problem in horseracing is that winning almost always involves small profit margins (like 2%-5%), which can easily disappear completely if just 1 or 2 more folks mimic the methods of the winner. Thus, we are left to our own devices to attempt to improve our own game.

[lamboguy]

the only way to win wagering is to have an edge. these days it is very close to impossible to get edges in pari mutuel pools for any type of worthwhile money.

this game has evolved so much that i can honestly say that the smaller players that bet very short money are the only ones that can win at this game except for the batch players with consuls in front of them that have big advantages over all of us.

a smaller player that is good can bet small amounts to win medium sized scores while they are not making a dent into the pools. most of us can't do this but for the very few that can put themselves in a straight jacket, my hat goes off to you.

[burnsy]

The question were they born or made???


I'm in the corner of that a good gambler is born with brains but made with learning skills. Inexperienced people and some that lose forever never learn, think that they are invincible or just one score from the "big one". This leads to compulsion. There's no compulsive gambler that's ever won over time, they are basically not in control. Being a control freak as you stated in this original post goes a long way towards being good at gambling. Controlling your bankroll and your emotions during the ups and downs is key. Average and bad gamblers get mad when they lose instead of learning from it and accepting it. It took me years to learn this. If you are not willing to take chances (gamble) and accept the outcome either way, you will stink forever.

Knowing your strengths and admitting weakness goes a long way towards success. A good gambler is a great, unbiased evaluator. I can smell bias a mile off, those are the people you can take almost every time over the long haul. Why do you think I make fun of those political clowns? They are biased beyond repair and most of them can't bet, that's why 90% of their posts are in that ridiculous section. Ask them for some winners, see what you get.

The most important thing is understanding gambling itself........it means anything can happen. Some can't even get past this concept. When someone comes on here with "locks" or "this can't lose"....especially when it comes to horse racing.......you know they are not much of a gambler. I'm 53 years old, it took me years to learn and accept this. Like I said, some never do. If you don't know how to take losing, don't have an open mind and can't accept that anything can lose no matter how "easy" it looks.........you will be like 85% of the folks that think they know how to bet.

I don't win all the time but I do fine........especially betting the NFL.

[Robert Fischer]

It's gotta be a little nature and nurture.

You have to have the requisite ability of perception. It doesn't take a genius but you have to have some natural ability.

and you've got to learn and establish the proper habits and self-control.

Humans are animals, and these markets are designed to capitalize on that fact.

[AndyC]

In gambling...you can't take someone where you yourself haven't been. Unless you've been a winning gambler yourself...you can't possibly know for sure what winning entails. There are thousands of losing gamblers out there who THINK that they know why they lose. Some think that they are losing because they have no "discipline"...while others think that they lose because they "can't construct their bets the right way". All this "thinking" that they do is strictly "theoretical"...and they have no way of knowing if they are right or wrong, because, as losing gamblers, they don't really know what it is that the winners do. Only the WINNERS know for sure what winning really requires...and only the WINNERS are fit to teach the losers the "winning way".

All those "mentors" out there who are losing money gambling and yet presume to teach others how to win...are fooling themselves, as well as their "students".

It's like a virgin presuming to teach the art of lovemaking.

A winning gambler is comprised of many skill sets. Even a losing gambler can teach or help someone improve skills. I don't think anybody is ever taught or mentored from A-Z by any one person.

[raybo]

I've known only 2 successful gamblers in my 66 years, a brother-in law, and my best friend/mentor. Both were multi-game gamblers. My brother-in-law bet through illegal bookies in the Dallas area for sports betting, played big money pool, and also bet the ponies at the track occasionally. My mentor played black jack and dice in Vegas, and bet the ponies both on-track and later online (after I came along and dragged him kicking and screaming into the computer and internet world).

My brother-in-law had almost a disdain for money, almost as if he hated the stuff, it meant little to him. Losses were not even recognized, as were wins. he went about his business of analyzing whatever it was that he analyzed, bet with both fists, and forgot about it immediately. I never learned a thing from him about how he did his analysis, because he was in some other world while doing that and never said a word during those periods. But, I got the impression that he was always in a "zone" of concentration that could not be entered by anyone else. The focus and concentration was phenomenal.

My friend/mentor, was a counter in black jack, and a table watcher in dice, and with the ponies he was like my brother-in-law, totally focused on the job at hand. We handicapped side by side but he would never say a word until after his analysis was completed. Then he would just tell me what horses he had on his ticket (trifectas early on and then superfectas, never made a win bet that I know of). I was lucky, he chose me to mentor, not the other way around. Why me? I've never asked him (maybe I should before one of us dies :lol: ), but I suspect that he saw in me something that I didn't even know about myself, other than the patience of Job and my hatred of gambling for gambling's sake. I was a stock investor before I was a horse player (he also was a very astute investor besides being a successful gambler, and retired from the "real job" world at 50). Like me, the horse racing game had/has no particular attraction other than a vehicle for making money. We both consider it a business, nothing more.

I guess the most important things he taught me (other than solid handicapping routines of course) was to consider money as only a tool, and to stay alert to "levels" of betting in order to recognize at what level would put me "in over my head" (I found that level shortly after going full time in 2004, and left the game for a year because of it, too much too soon). He would often say that there is a point in bet level where one becomes a different person/player and can no longer function successfully. He also taught me that the reward must be worth the risk, or it's not a "good bet". A loss must be, at all times, a "good bet" that happened to lose. "Leverage" was one of his favorite words. Bet small to win large, relatively. He is, by far, the most common sense grounded, most real world intelligent person I have ever known personally. I remember a time, one of the few times we actually went to the track together early on, a guy came up and asked him "Who do you like?" and he said "I like the 2". Shortly after that another guy asked him "Who's the winner?", and he answered "I don't have a clue". That told me what horse racing is all about, you must like your bet, but you never know what the outcome will be.

Regarding the OP's question "were they born or made?", I have little doubt that, the best of them, were born, with something special. But, one can be successful, at a slightly lower level, by working hard studying the game, not just the horses, and applying oneself to the singular task of making money. Emotional control is required, and usually is innate in the highly successful individual, but one can attain that control, if the work is put in to do so, over time.

[thaskalos]

My brother-in-law had almost a disdain for money, almost as if he hated the stuff, it meant little to him. Losses were not even recognized, as were wins. he went about his business of analyzing whatever it was that he analyzed, bet with both fists, and forgot about it immediately. I never learned a thing from him about how he did his analysis, because he was in some other world while doing that and never said a word during those periods. But, I got the impression that he was always in a "zone" of concentration that could not be entered by anyone else. The focus and concentration was phenomenal.


THESE are the guys whom I find utterly FASCINATING. The downside is that they are usually much better gamblers than they are husbands and fathers.

[raybo]

THESE are the guys whom I find utterly FASCINATING. The downside is that they are usually much better gamblers than they are husbands and fathers.

You hit that one dead on the head! My sister divorced him for that very reason, he sucked as a husband. But then, when you marry a guy that owns 2 night clubs, hangs out with bookies and gambling degenerates, gambles new Cadillacs in a game of pool just for the fun of it, is on the phone with bookies betting sports all day long, all before you marry the guy, what can you expect after the marriage? :bang: Yeah, the money is nice, but you gotta consider the source of that money. Can't have the cake and eat it too.

[whodoyoulike]

I can't answer these questions with any degree of authority, SRU...because if I do, I will come across as some sort of gambling "know-it-all"...and I am no such thing.

The closest guy to a TRUE mentor that I've ever met during my gambling journey never really taught me anything...not anything that I didn't already know, anyway. He didn't TEACH me anything...but he SHOWED me something. He showed me, by using himself as an example...that it was INDEED possible, for a guy who liked to operate as a "lone wolf"...to succeed at the very thing that I always wanted to do. I got to watch a REAL "pro" operate...and saw how he conducted himself during the many stressful situations that serious gambling brings about in a player's life. It's one thing to READ about "discipline"...but it's an altogether DIFFERENT thing to actually SEE this discipline right in front of you, day after day. He never taught me a thing about the intricacies of the game...leaving me to figure it out all by myself. But he showed me, by example, that winning was POSSIBLE...and that was enough.

We may be willing to do all the hard work ourselves...but first we have to be assured that what we are trying to do is indeed DOABLE. And this "assurance" doesn't come from listening to phony experts spewing exaggerated claims and empty promises. It comes from actually watching REAL experts...at WORK!

And where can you find mentors like that?

I think you're in some type of false circular logic.

He didn't teach but showed you and you eventually learned which means he did indeed teach you something.

You shouldn't buy into any expert's advice 100% unless it makes sense to you. Not everyone who can write a book or give a seminar can also teach their methodologies because they're not really teachers or should be considered phonies.

It really boils down to the intelligence of the students, some are just smarter than others.

[whodoyoulike]

... He also taught me that the reward must be worth the risk, or it's not a "good bet". A loss must be, at all times, a "good bet" that happened to lose. "Leverage" was one of his favorite words. Bet small to win large, relatively. ...

Everyone who gambles should remember this part.

[steveb]

THESE are the guys whom I find utterly FASCINATING. The downside is that they are usually much better gamblers than they are husbands and fathers.

it's my 45th wedding anniversary today.:lol:
18 & 17 years old respectively when we wed.

but of course you may doubt i was one of those guys you find fascinating!

the main thing that will stop people succeeding is that they don't have the funds to start with.
and then overcoming the rake, if they do.

but i can't see what the attraction is.
never been happier since i stopped, and started doing things that did not just benefit ME.

[thaskalos]

it's my 45th wedding anniversary today.:lol:
18 & 17 years old respectively when we wed.

but of course you may doubt i was one of those guys you find fascinating!

I have no reason at all to doubt you. Congratulations on your anniversary...and many more. :ThmbUp:

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

Thanks gentlemen for all of the insight on this topic. The important fact brought out is that anything can happen in horseracing. that being said how the gambler handles this fact is what leads to his success. Absolute loss acceptance without a loss of confidence in his ability to continue the profit motive is essential. Every gambler has a breaking point at which he abandons his validated profitable method ( proven through recordkeeping), and goes on tilt...this is the end for the weaker and just a bump in the road for the tougher player.

[ReplayRandall]

Thanks gentlemen for all of the insight on this topic. The important fact brought out is that anything can happen in horseracing. that being said how the gambler handles this fact is what leads to his success. Absolute loss acceptance without a loss of confidence in his ability to continue the profit motive is essential. Every gambler has a breaking point at which he abandons his validated profitable method ( proven through recordkeeping), and goes on tilt...this is the end for the weaker and just a bump in the road for the tougher player.

Anyone who has the opinion that you just posted, is indeed, a winning player...

[Robert Goren]

Smart people are born smart! There are no dumb successful gamblers and there are plenty of smart unsuccessful ones too. There are fewer successful gamblers today than there were in the past because there is more opportunities for smart people from lower class backgrounds to make "good money" than there was in the past. The smartest man I ever knew came from a railroad family just after WWII. He never had the chance to go to college, so he took up betting horses. He raised 8 kids betting horses, 8 or 9 races a day. He sent everyone of his kids to college, but not all finished. The lack of money of not the reason they did not finish however. You would think that all really smart people would forsake gambling for other fields these days , but that is not case. There is something that draws some very smart people into gambling even today. Most of them, however, are not going into betting horses these days. They are playing poker or the latest rage, daily fantasy sports. Like in horse racing of yesteryear, Poker and DFS are both drawing in a lot of half smart people and there is an opportunity for the truly smart gambler who is willing to put forth some effort and use his brain at the same time to make pretty good money currently. Just remember I am talking at least doctor level smart. I am not so sure how far an IQ of 120 will get you. It might get along way in DFS right now, I just don't know. You need to be considerably smarter than that 120 IQ to make decent money playing poker now that the internet version has bit the dust.

[ultracapper]

Congratulations SteveB. That's quite an accomplishment for people that married so young, or anybody for that matter.

The only thing I'm certain about when it comes to winning at horse racing is that you can't play scared. There are times, that if you want to be a successful horse player, where you must commit in a big way. In a big way means, putting money on the table. Real money. Serious money. Real advantages that you really, really feel like you have are so few and far between that you must first recognize them HONESTLY, and then capitalize. There comes a time when the serious successful horse player must put the hammer down, and have the guts to do it.

I think handicapping can all be taught, by a mentor or self, but if there is anything "God" given to the successful horse player, I have to think it's GUTS. And that's why I think a losing horse player can teach a student to be a winner. I think guts is the real difference. I've met many players that I thought were very good nut and bolt handicappers, and learned a great deal from them, that were so tight in the ass that they just were never going to make anything out of it. They all have ended up playing for fun. The pressure to capitalize on those "moments" just wasn't bearable to their psyche.

Story from 25 years ago. There was this old-timer at Longacres that was a meat cutter at my local Safeway. My brand new blushing bride got to know him pretty quick while doing her shopping. Turned out he played the horses. Long story short. I go in to the store one day, and he's excited about a horse running that weekend. Heard this and that from the connections. The trainer was Mark Glatt's dad. The Glatts were up here at that time. Anyhow, sure winner, everybody has been waiting for this one, blah, blah, blah. I knew where this meat cutter sat at LAcres, so the day of the race, I go find him. His son is there, a couple friends, even Mark Glatt, who was about 18 at the time, came by. The race goes off and the horse was 8 to 1. I'll never forget it. I had $150 to win on it. It wins like the sure thing it was hyped to be. I show meat cutter my ticket, and he looks at me like I'm insane. "How could you bet that kind of money on a horse?" and on and on. He had $5 across the board. That moment has always stuck with me and I've tried like hell to figure out just what it all means. I know there's something profound in there, but can't put my finger on it.

[Robert Goren]

Thanks gentlemen for all of the insight on this topic. The important fact brought out is that anything can happen in horseracing. that being said how the gambler handles this fact is what leads to his success. Absolute loss acceptance without a loss of confidence in his ability to continue the profit motive is essential. Every gambler has a breaking point at which he abandons his validated profitable method ( proven through recordkeeping), and goes on tilt...this is the end for the weaker and just a bump in the road for the tougher player. Contrary to popular belief, not all gamblers have a "tilt mode" although most do. The problem that almost gamblers have though is coming to the realization that something they are doing is not really working because through the luck of the draw, it seemed to work really well when they first employed it. It is easy forget that most "methods" one tries in gambling in general and in horse racing in particular do not work well enough to have a positive effect on your bottom line. A lot of methods fail just enough in the long run that they can appear to positive in the short run. For most gamblers, including me, getting out of a winning idea is not nearly as big a problem as sticking with a losing one.

[raybo]

Contrary to popular belief, not all gamblers have a "tilt mode" although most do. The problem that almost gamblers have though is coming to the realization that something they are doing is not really working because through the luck of the draw, it seemed to work really well when they first employed it. It is easy forget that most "methods" one tries in gambling in general and in horse racing in particular do not work well enough to have a positive effect on your bottom line. A lot of methods fail just enough in the long run that they can appear to positive in the short run. For most gamblers, including me, getting out of a winning idea is not nearly as big a problem as sticking with a losing one.

You're right, not all gamblers have a"tilt mode". Many of them are in, and have been for a long time, a constant mode of making poor decisions and sticking with a long time losing method. :lol:

[ReplayRandall]

Contrary to popular belief, not all gamblers have a "tilt mode" although most do.

EVERY gambler has gone on TILT, period. The winning player just doesn't take it out on his bankroll.....

[ultracapper]

EVERY gambler has gone on TILT, period. The winning player just doesn't take it out on his bankroll.....

I like that. That's really a very valid point. I guess the question is, then.... If you don't take it out on your bankroll, have you really gone tilt?

[ReplayRandall]

If you don't take it out on your bankroll, have you really gone tilt?

When I went on tilt in Vegas, I would take it out on my stomach at the Caesars Buffet... :cool:

[EMD4ME]

Congratulations SteveB. That's quite an accomplishment for people that married so young, or anybody for that matter.

The only thing I'm certain about when it comes to winning at horse racing is that you can't play scared. There are times, that if you want to be a successful horse player, where you must commit in a big way. In a big way means, putting money on the table. Real money. Serious money. Real advantages that you really, really feel like you have are so few and far between that you must first recognize them HONESTLY, and then capitalize. There comes a time when the serious successful horse player must put the hammer down, and have the guts to do it.

I think handicapping can all be taught, by a mentor or self, but if there is anything "God" given to the successful horse player, I have to think it's GUTS. And that's why I think a losing horse player can teach a student to be a winner. I think guts is the real difference. I've met many players that I thought were very good nut and bolt handicappers, and learned a great deal from them, that were so tight in the ass that they just were never going to make anything out of it. They all have ended up playing for fun. The pressure to capitalize on those "moments" just wasn't bearable to their psyche.

Story from 25 years ago. There was this old-timer at Longacres that was a meat cutter at my local Safeway. My brand new blushing bride got to know him pretty quick while doing her shopping. Turned out he played the horses. Long story short. I go in to the store one day, and he's excited about a horse running that weekend. Heard this and that from the connections. The trainer was Mark Glatt's dad. The Glatts were up here at that time. Anyhow, sure winner, everybody has been waiting for this one, blah, blah, blah. I knew where this meat cutter sat at LAcres, so the day of the race, I go find him. His son is there, a couple friends, even Mark Glatt, who was about 18 at the time, came by. The race goes off and the horse was 8 to 1. I'll never forget it. I had $150 to win on it. It wins like the sure thing it was hyped to be. I show meat cutter my ticket, and he looks at me like I'm insane. "How could you bet that kind of money on a horse?" and on and on. He had $5 across the board. That moment has always stuck with me and I've tried like hell to figure out just what it all means. I know there's something profound in there, but can't put my finger on it.

Ultracapper, I love this post.

Besides a couple of players I know, 98% of the rest are too scared to put their money where their mouth is. I learned (through experience) that I would rather put $1,000 into 1 sequence or 1 WIN bet etc VS. spreading out on 10 plays I kinda like.

I'll go to the track with $1,000 in my pocket and my buddy (who admittedly is not Einstein and is not a good player at all). I will, for example, like 1 horse all day. He concurs. I'll bet $1,000 on 1 horse, it pays $4.10 and have $2,050. He'll bet $100 on him in exotics, of course, not cash for a nickel AND then chase the 100 lost the rest of the day quickly at track #'2 #3 #4 #5 etc.

6 o'clock comes. He's broke.

I maybe wagered $200 back in action bets. (Maybe broke even on those action bets). Made $1050 overall.

This has happened about 250 times in the last 5 years.

He never learns. I used to do what he did for years. No more baby. Too much work put in to just piss it away spreading at tracks across the country.

OR I'll put $500 into a Pick 5. Hit for $3000 and he puts $200 looking to save $ and cut corners. I hit it 3X, he loses more often than not by 1 horse.

If you have the work put in and believe in yourself, why NOT go ALL in?

Intelligent guts are vital in any game. Having guts that are based on non firm grounds, of course is not healthy.

Yes, I have busted many times but ON PURPOSE. (meaning the strategy was: this is where I will crush or be crushed because I love this wager so much. For ex: Hate a chalk, bet heavy against with no cover).

I'll walk in with $1000. Say, I like a pick 5, I'll bet $300 in it. Say I like 2 other horses, bet $350 on the other 2. Crap happens, you miss sometimes. Most pick 5's start before the bias is known. Late scratches occur, changing pace scenarios. Bumps happen at the gate, again changing race flow/shapes.

BUT I HAD A GREAT CHANCE and made good bets. One has to be real with themselves. Did I make a good bet despite it losing? Was there value?

[thaskalos]

That moment has always stuck with me and I've tried like hell to figure out just what it all means. I know there's something profound in there, but can't put my finger on it.

The profound thing that you can't put your finger on is, that...for every bettor who wagers $150 to win on a horse, there are 500 more who can't bring themselves to bet more than $5 across the board.

[no breathalyzer]

Ultracapper, I love this post.

Besides a couple of players I know, 98% of the rest are too scared to put their money where their mouth is. I learned (through experience) that I would rather put $1,000 into 1 sequence or 1 WIN bet etc VS. spreading out on 10 plays I kinda like.

I'll go to the track with $1,000 in my pocket and my buddy (who admittedly is not Einstein and is not a good player at all). I will, for example, like 1 horse all day. He concurs. I'll bet $1,000 on 1 horse, it pays $4.10 and have $2,050. He'll bet $100 on him in exotics, of course, not cash for a nickel AND then chase the 100 lost the rest of the day quickly at track #'2 #3 #4 #5 etc.

6 o'clock comes. He's broke.

I maybe wagered $200 back in action bets. (Maybe broke even on those action bets). Made $1050 overall.

This has happened about 250 times in the last 5 years.

He never learns. I used to do what he did for years. No more baby. Too much work put in to just piss it away spreading at tracks across the country.

OR I'll put $500 into a Pick 5. Hit for $3000 and he puts $200 looking to save $ and cut corners. I hit it 3X, he loses more often than not by 1 horse.

If you have the work put in and believe in yourself, why NOT go ALL in?

Intelligent guts are vital in any game. Having guts that are based on non firm grounds, of course is not healthy.

Yes, I have busted many times but ON PURPOSE. (meaning the strategy was: this is where I will crush or be crushed because I love this wager so much. For ex: Hate a chalk, bet heavy against with no cover).

I'll walk in with $1000. Say, I like a pick 5, I'll bet $300 in it. Say I like 2 other horses, bet $350 on the other 2. Crap happens, you miss sometimes. Most pick 5's start before the bias is known. Late scratches occur, changing pace scenarios. Bumps happen at the gate, again changing race flow/shapes.

BUT I HAD A GREAT CHANCE and made good bets. One has to be real with themselves. Did I make a good bet despite it losing? Was there value?


I enjoyed this post. thanks

[ultracapper]

Ultracapper, I love this post.

Besides a couple of players I know, 98% of the rest are too scared to put their money where their mouth is. I learned (through experience) that I would rather put $1,000 into 1 sequence or 1 WIN bet etc VS. spreading out on 10 plays I kinda like.

I'll go to the track with $1,000 in my pocket and my buddy (who admittedly is not Einstein and is not a good player at all). I will, for example, like 1 horse all day. He concurs. I'll bet $1,000 on 1 horse, it pays $4.10 and have $2,050. He'll bet $100 on him in exotics, of course, not cash for a nickel AND then chase the 100 lost the rest of the day quickly at track #'2 #3 #4 #5 etc.

6 o'clock comes. He's broke.

I maybe wagered $200 back in action bets. (Maybe broke even on those action bets). Made $1050 overall.

This has happened about 250 times in the last 5 years.

He never learns. I used to do what he did for years. No more baby. Too much work put in to just piss it away spreading at tracks across the country.

OR I'll put $500 into a Pick 5. Hit for $3000 and he puts $200 looking to save $ and cut corners. I hit it 3X, he loses more often than not by 1 horse.

If you have the work put in and believe in yourself, why NOT go ALL in?

Intelligent guts are vital in any game. Having guts that are based on non firm grounds, of course is not healthy.

Yes, I have busted many times but ON PURPOSE. (meaning the strategy was: this is where I will crush or be crushed because I love this wager so much. For ex: Hate a chalk, bet heavy against with no cover).

I'll walk in with $1000. Say, I like a pick 5, I'll bet $300 in it. Say I like 2 other horses, bet $350 on the other 2. Crap happens, you miss sometimes. Most pick 5's start before the bias is known. Late scratches occur, changing pace scenarios. Bumps happen at the gate, again changing race flow/shapes.

BUT I HAD A GREAT CHANCE and made good bets. One has to be real with themselves. Did I make a good bet despite it losing? Was there value?

I've never been successful at back and forth either. I'm a hammer or be hammered guy also. I always tell the other players I hang with, If I hit, I want it to MATTER.

[ultracapper]

The profound thing that you can't put your finger on is, that...for every bettor who wagers $150 to win on a horse, there are 500 more who can't bring themselves to bet more than $5 across the board.

I tell you, I wouldn't have made that kind of bet if I didn't think meat cutter and all his group weren't making the same kind of bets. The way he'd been talking it up the previous couple of days, it sounded like everybody involved with this horse was just sitting and waiting for months for this moment, and now was the time to let it rip. I really thought I was going to be the one that had the little ticket, just riding along kind of thing. I was embarrassed after I showed him my ticket. I quickly cashed it, and went and enjoyed myself alone.

[ReplayRandall]

If you don't take it out on your bankroll, have you really gone tilt?

Definition of going on tilt---> Having your casino lock-box drilled open because you forgot your keys.....

[ultracapper]

Definition of going on tilt---> Having your casino lock-box drilled open because you forgot your keys.....

Now that's funny.

[steveb]

Congratulations SteveB. That's quite an accomplishment for people that married so young, or anybody for that matter.

The only thing I'm certain about when it comes to winning at horse racing is that you can't play scared. There are times, that if you want to be a successful horse player, where you must commit in a big way. In a big way means, putting money on the table. Real money. Serious money. Real advantages that you really, really feel like you have are so few and far between that you must first recognize them HONESTLY, and then capitalize. There comes a time when the serious successful horse player must put the hammer down, and have the guts to do it.

I think handicapping can all be taught, by a mentor or self, but if there is anything "God" given to the successful horse player, I have to think it's GUTS. And that's why I think a losing horse player can teach a student to be a winner. I think guts is the real difference. I've met many players that I thought were very good nut and bolt handicappers, and learned a great deal from them, that were so tight in the ass that they just were never going to make anything out of it. They all have ended up playing for fun. The pressure to capitalize on those "moments" just wasn't bearable to their psyche.

Story from 25 years ago. There was this old-timer at Longacres that was a meat cutter at my local Safeway. My brand new blushing bride got to know him pretty quick while doing her shopping. Turned out he played the horses. Long story short. I go in to the store one day, and he's excited about a horse running that weekend. Heard this and that from the connections. The trainer was Mark Glatt's dad. The Glatts were up here at that time. Anyhow, sure winner, everybody has been waiting for this one, blah, blah, blah. I knew where this meat cutter sat at LAcres, so the day of the race, I go find him. His son is there, a couple friends, even Mark Glatt, who was about 18 at the time, came by. The race goes off and the horse was 8 to 1. I'll never forget it. I had $150 to win on it. It wins like the sure thing it was hyped to be. I show meat cutter my ticket, and he looks at me like I'm insane. "How could you bet that kind of money on a horse?" and on and on. He had $5 across the board. That moment has always stuck with me and I've tried like hell to figure out just what it all means. I know there's something profound in there, but can't put my finger on it.

thanks for the well wishes.
the truth is that one can't give advice and think it fits all.
i did not even finish high school, because i came from a low working class family.
i was in the work force when I was 15 as an apprentice printer.
but something happened to me that i won't get into, that ensured my life as a printer was not going to last far beyond me becoming a tradesman.

education does not make you intelligent it just makes you educated, and they are different things.
i was doing my thing from about my 25th or 26th year until the fairly recent past.
but there is NO way i could do it alone now, nor would i want to.
i only lasted longer because people wanted my specific talents in their models.

i am just lucky that i had a good idea many many years ago, that nobody had thought of before.
without that idea i would probably be busted.
as others know what i did and how, it no longer has much value i wouldn't think.
that was my biggest mistake, telling 2 syndicates how it was done. although i did give it to somebody free, just recently, although i have no idea if that somebody has been able to do anything with it.

but i do think you need to not care about money.
when you bet, it's not money as such, it's just a tool of your trade.
i know that if i had nothing i would be no worse off than i am now, because nearly everything i like doing is free.

i have no idea if i am typical, although all those i know that are involved(or were) are nothing like me.

[steveb]

Story from 25 years ago. There was this old-timer at Longacres that was a meat cutter at my local Safeway. My brand new blushing bride got to know him pretty quick while doing her shopping. Turned out he played the horses. Long story short. I go in to the store one day, and he's excited about a horse running that weekend. Heard this and that from the connections. The trainer was Mark Glatt's dad. The Glatts were up here at that time. Anyhow, sure winner, everybody has been waiting for this one, blah, blah, blah. I knew where this meat cutter sat at LAcres, so the day of the race, I go find him. His son is there, a couple friends, even Mark Glatt, who was about 18 at the time, came by. The race goes off and the horse was 8 to 1. I'll never forget it. I had $150 to win on it. It wins like the sure thing it was hyped to be. I show meat cutter my ticket, and he looks at me like I'm insane. "How could you bet that kind of money on a horse?" and on and on. He had $5 across the board. That moment has always stuck with me and I've tried like hell to figure out just what it all means. I know there's something profound in there, but can't put my finger on it.

my apologies.....i should have read this more thoroughly.
it just means that the amount you bet has no bearing on how good you may be.
now that my time is over, if i ever have a bet(which is very rarely), i may put only 10 or 20 dollars on my bet(mainly exotic).
it feels no different to when I had bets many many times that size, and infinitely bigger turnover.
there is one difference with me though, i would never take any notice of what people would tell me, regardless of their standing(either as gamblers or insiders).
i would have no idea what i was going to back in any race, until i knew what price was available.
that is the advantage of living in australia when they had hundreds of legal bookies on course
i would never have pre-conceived ideas about which horse would win, they all had a price point where they could become a bet(or not).

[AndyC]

The profound thing that you can't put your finger on is, that...for every bettor who wagers $150 to win on a horse, there are 500 more who can't bring themselves to bet more than $5 across the board.

I have found the opposite to be true, as well. Players betting $150 when they should be betting $5 across. The ability to keep emotions out of the decision process is key. People overbet their favorite horses, overbet big races, overbet hot tips, overbet the last race of the day trying to get out and the one I see quite often is overbetting carryovers.

[DeltaLover]

i did not even finish high school, because i came from a low working class family.


It is never too late!



education does not make you intelligent it just makes you educated, and they are different things.


Illiterata vita cum ocullis caecitas

[raybo]

I like that. That's really a very valid point. I guess the question is, then.... If you don't take it out on your bankroll, have you really gone tilt?

Good players go on tilt, but they recognize it (and do something about it) before their bankroll suffers dramatically. Personally, I just stop playing until I get my sh-t back together.

[ultracapper]

I have found the opposite to be true, as well. Players betting $150 when they should be betting $5 across. The ability to keep emotions out of the decision process is key. People overbet their favorite horses, overbet big races, overbet hot tips, overbet the last race of the day trying to get out and the one I see quite often is overbetting carryovers.

I really had no insight into the horse at all. I just got caught up in meat cutter's excitement and made a bet. This was back when I thought a tip had real teeth to it. If I would have realized that the way this group played was the way meat cutter played it, I would have followed suit. I really was embarrassed after showing him my ticket. I thought this was some huge moment, some set-up for the ages. I wasn't entirely a newbie, but I wasn't savvy by any means either. I'm sure there were other people involved that played it more aggressively than I did, but meat cutter was my in to the play, and it was he that I wanted to impress my gratitude to for letting me in on it. I could have put $5 across and bought a 2nd ticket if I really felt it was an opportunity, but I thought I was just flying in formation. I don't know if his bet was based on a lack of confidence in the horse or if that was just his level of play, I think it was the latter, as he was very excited about the whole thing for the previous couple of days, but I would have conformed if I would have been aware of his level of play. I may have investigated further with others in the mix just how solid this tip was, and like I said, could have bought a 2nd ticket, but I wouldn't have deliberately made the scene that I did.

[thaskalos]

I have found the opposite to be true, as well. Players betting $150 when they should be betting $5 across.

I agree. Sometimes we find ourselves with more money than brains.

[raybo]

thanks for the well wishes.
the truth is that one can't give advice and think it fits all.
i did not even finish high school, because i came from a low working class family.
i was in the work force when I was 15 as an apprentice printer.
but something happened to me that i won't get into, that ensured my life as a printer was not going to last far beyond me becoming a tradesman.

education does not make you intelligent it just makes you educated, and they are different things.
i was doing my thing from about my 25th or 26th year until the fairly recent past.
but there is NO way i could do it alone now, nor would i want to.
i only lasted longer because people wanted my specific talents in their models.

i am just lucky that i had a good idea many many years ago, that nobody had thought of before.
without that idea i would probably be busted.
as others know what i did and how, it no longer has much value i wouldn't think.
that was my biggest mistake, telling 2 syndicates how it was done. although i did give it to somebody free, just recently, although i have no idea if that somebody has been able to do anything with it.

but i do think you need to not care about money.
when you bet, it's not money as such, it's just a tool of your trade.
i know that if i had nothing i would be no worse off than i am now, because nearly everything i like doing is free.

i have no idea if i am typical, although all those i know that are involved(or were) are nothing like me.

The 2 bolded portions above are spot on!

Yes, higher education is a good thing, obviously, but hardly necessary for living life and enjoying it. And, it does not make you more intelligent except that it requires using your brain, thus increasing your brain power. But, you can increase your brain power through any activity that vigorously exercises your brain. Horse race analysis and wagering is an excellent way of doing that. Math, physics, statistics, etc., are great, but they are just skills/tools, not intelligence.

Yes, money is a necessary part of playing the ponies, but it is just the tool you use for playing, just as chips are the tool for playing poker. You can play a conservative grinding game, building your chip count steadily, or you can go all in and hope you don't bust out. But, the tool is the same for both types of player.