Considering an option for manual data entry

[Dave Schwartz]

I am considering adding an option for manual data entry. How many of you would be interested in software that supported that?

Note that it would come with a monthly usage fee of around $25 per month.

[Mr.XXX]

I'M DEFINITELY ON BOARD.

Great chefs will tell you that sometimes a classic recipe, after user suggestions & preferences , becomes a great hit(and conversely, the one they expect will be an acclaimed new invention doesn't draw the expected interest), therefore I would try it just for trying's sakes.

For starters- before getting into any product specifics-I really, really like the $25 price point for general appeal.
Heck, if it doesn't attract enough, then... this sport is in a lot more trouble than I thought.

My main concern would be the reliability of the figs, I'm sure you've got that covered...
So this'd mean the software would regularly receive from your server drf-type variants, then calculate things?

To frame things a bit differently & without naming specific entities, your proposed product
would be extremely useful with the options to also import data from other programs, such as some of the other free/almost free independent providers here,
besides the manual entry or data provider download.

Or in even other words, some of the other products need figs- you could provide a variant/par download subscription,
or even just your own automated speed figs & let their software calculate their other numbers.

[Capper Al]

I would add manual to your software. You should want to pull in the largest audience possible. Some automatic feed users might find need later on also like on Breeders' Cup weekend.

[Mr.XXX]

I agree with Capo-err Capper Al.

I don't understand why so many NO's...
This software will likely have things not seen in others, it will be useful ALONGSIDE other programs... quickly enter a paceline for each contender and compare...
and even if someone's prog is similar, it can serve as a double check or confirm.

[Dave Schwartz]

The software I am building will come with two options: with HDW data (either subscription or daily) or with data entry/data capture.

When I say, "Capture," I mean that if you are entering data by hand the first thing you will (logically) do is go to some website that has free entries and copy/paste the page into the program. (I will probably only start with a single site but add more later.)

If you choose the data option, it will be from HDW. The HDW data is just top notch. Their figs as well as mine will be present in the software as a download.

Those entering data by hand will be in for some nice surprises. For example,, imagine when you enter a paceline for a horse it keeps it... FOREVER! Thus, you will never have to enter any paceline more than once.

Imagine that you are entering a paceline...

You start with the date, track and race number. At this point the system looks to see if you have ever entered THAT race before. Of course, if the paceline for THIS horse in THAT race has been entered before it will grab all the info for you!

Truthfully, this is one of those programming features that will just give YOU a lot of bang for MY EFFORT. Imagine the time this will save after just a few weeks of entering data.

BTW, even the guys who use downloaded data will have the ability to add their own handicapping to the mix.

Be aware that this is not vaporware. I am really working on this day-to-day.

The documentation system is being written page-by-page as I go. It is context sensitive, but being held in online documents. It also supports key-word and topical searches.

Make no mistake - this is NOT HSH, although it uses the same data engine. It will not be a complex maze of buttons as HSH can seem at times.

[Dave Schwartz]

Some months back I asked for people who were interested in joining me to develop the new software.

The software plan has morphed a bit since then, but development is under way. Unfortunately, it cannot be a free program as I had planned. Instead. it will be the new Pace Makes the Race software I have described in 2 other threads.

I have started a focus group on Facebook. If you have ideas that you would like to contribute towards the development process, please send me a message on Facebook here: Dave Schwartz on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/DaveSchwartzReno)

[Dr Gonzo]

Some months back I asked for people who were interested in joining me to develop the new software.

The software plan has morphed a bit since then, but development is under way. Unfortunately, it cannot be a free program as I had planned. Instead. it will be the new Pace Makes the Race software I have described in 2 other threads.



Dave, you didn't just PLAN to make the software free, in your thread "Designing New, Free Software", you STATED that it would be free.

My question to you is : How does this maneuver differ from "Bait and Switch" as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary?

bait and switch

n.

1. A fraudulent advertising claim or sales offer for a product or service that is not available or not for sale at the stated price, made with the intention of luring customers who are then offered something else or forced to spend more money to get the same thing.
2. A deception based on a false claim or enticement that proves to be disappointing.

[Tom]

Nothing is available for sale yet, so you have been notified well ahead of schedule.

[Dave Schwartz]

I am really astounded at how many people are willing and desiring to do manual entry.

This will definitely be the center of the design.

What I am working on this week is the core data files. So glad that I asked about this because it allows me to demand a minimum of entry fields. Of course, those using downloads will have all the other fields available.

Thanks for your interest. Please keep the comments coming. Hopefully, by the end of next week I will be able to post a few screen shots.

If you'd like to help with the design, join the PMTR Facebook Group here (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1484885091813872/).

Seems we have to be friends before I can invite you. Friend me here. (https://www.facebook.com/DaveSchwartzReno)

[PaceAdvantage]

Dave, you didn't just PLAN to make the software free, in your thread "Designing New, Free Software", you STATED that it would be free.

My question to you is : How does this maneuver differ from "Bait and Switch" as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary?

bait and switch

n.

1. A fraudulent advertising claim or sales offer for a product or service that is not available or not for sale at the stated price, made with the intention of luring customers who are then offered something else or forced to spend more money to get the same thing.
2. A deception based on a false claim or enticement that proves to be disappointing.How is that possible though? People are absolutely free NOT to do ANYTHING...not buy whatever it is he ends up selling. Nobody has been locked into anything. No deposits have been made. No consideration of any kind has been received by Dave (to my knowledge anyway).

Bait and switch is when a store advertises something in the paper, people show up at the store to buy it, but are subsequently told "we're sold out, but we have something else you might like." That kind of thing...the point was to get them in the store. That's not the same concept here, where a developer is discussing a new project, which was nowhere near finished. Projects change. Plans change.

Only people waiting to pounce on Dave with a "gotcha" moment would think this is bait and switch...I'll say that with confidence.

[Mr.XXX]

Oh Tom, there you troll again with correct logic and true facts :lol:
Not to mention that features are being added.
I'd rather get more features at a slightly higher price.

As well, a free product with zero data costs would still require paying for adjusted figs / parts / variants.

No single software has ever suited me to a T, for some reason I feel this one will.

[Dr Gonzo]

How is that possible though? People are absolutely free NOT to do ANYTHING...not buy whatever it is he ends up selling. Nobody has been locked into anything. No deposits have been made. No consideration of any kind has been received by Dave (to my knowledge anyway).

Bait and switch is when a store advertises something in the paper, people show up at the store to buy it, but are subsequently told "we're sold out, but we have something else you might like." That kind of thing...the point was to get them in the store. That's not the same concept here, where a developer is discussing a new project, which was nowhere near finished. Projects change. Plans change.

Only people waiting to pounce on Dave with a "gotcha" moment would think this is bait and switch...I'll say that with confidence.

Obviously, you and I are looking at this from different perspectives.

Follow me for a moment :

In this scenario, I am not an "authorized advertiser", just a poster whom you don't know from Adam. One day, I start a thread claiming that I'm going to write free software for the troops and need everyone's input. I spend a few weeks getting everyone's ideas and opinions of what the software should contain, gaining valuable marketing information. Everyone is looking forward to the finished product.

Five months later, I announce that things have changed and now the software is no longer free. Have I acted in an honest manner? In good faith? Should my integrity be above reproach?

How does this differ from what has transpired here other than the "authorized advertiser" label?

I don't know Dave and have never had any business dealings with him but when someone tells me one thing and does something different, I call them out on it. Sorry if this is against the rules.

Doc

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry if this is against the rules.

DocThis was an odd jump...who said anything about the rules?

Look, if you don't want comments then don't offer them. I simply offered my disagreement with what you wrote. I would have written it whether or not Dave was an advertiser. You're free to believe otherwise, but I assure you I would have posted the exact same response.

I don't think this is a bait and switch. Plenty of companies tout what's in development and plenty of companies fail to deliver on initial promises.

Hell, I'm still waiting for my Google Glass...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/style/why-google-glass-broke.html?_r=0

[Dr Gonzo]

This was an odd jump...who said anything about the rules?

Look, if you don't want comments then don't offer them. I simply offered my disagreement with what you wrote. I would have written it whether or not Dave was an advertiser. You're free to believe otherwise, but I assure you I would have posted the exact same response.

I don't think this is a bait and switch. Plenty of companies tout what's in development and plenty of companies fail to deliver on initial promises.

Hell, I'm still waiting for my Google Glass...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/style/why-google-glass-broke.html?_r=0

But you didn't answer my questions. If I had done this, would I have been acting honestly? In good faith? My integrity above reproach?

Why won't you answer these questions?

[Flysofree]

Instead of actually typing in numbers , I like drop down boxes with figures to be supplied by the program... Then again I don't know enough about the program to actually comment.

[cbp]

Dave is offering a service that quite a few people seem to be interested in. Coding and product support can be very time and and labor intensive. Especially the latter, in what would be a tech challenged target pool. Those unable to write their own code aren't in a position to demand freebies from those able to provide a specific service. This is generally the case. If you can't rely on yourself, you must rely on others. Dave is doing his thing. Nothing wrong with that, IMO

[PaceAdvantage]

But you didn't answer my questions. If I had done this, would I have been acting honestly? In good faith? My integrity above reproach?

Why won't you answer these questions?Because I'm cowering in fear?

[PaceAdvantage]

But you didn't answer my questions. If I had done this, would I have been acting honestly? In good faith? My integrity above reproach?

Why won't you answer these questions?My real answer is that I would presume you innocent until I had a reason to think you were guilty of what you're talking about...

I would have no proof either way, since in your fantasy scenario, you say I don't know you from Adam.

[Dr Gonzo]

Because I'm cowering in fear?

No, because you know I'm right. :)

[Mr.XXX]

I too was disappointed, but upon further reflection I "may end up spending less money than IF the product was free" + less betting competitors would be on this! This is a be careful what you wish for situation:

The original option would require someone to buy the product OR buy/upgrade HSH AND purchase data(or at least don't stop downloading).

When I've done giveaways, almost free has worked out a lot better than free: less avaricious waste, I'm not swamped with unserious requests :: therefore not negatively impacting good customers.

I also don't want to pull a McDonald's with their latest All Day Breakfast:
offer a cheap product that TRIPLY raises my labor AND product costs AND lowers my existing / average sales.
May as well shut down. Current CEO trading on very, very thin ice.
(Off-topic: He'd be a lot better of making ALL MENUS AVAILABLE 24 hours(or the opposite, allow more expensive lunch/dinner items to be purchased during breakfast hours), average check would improve.
Oftentimes customers of late night establishments arrive as the store has changed over to breakfast, there are some smells drunks can't tolerate- eggs, some cleaning chemicals...and workers on early lunch breaks go elsewhere.)

[Cratos]

Dave, you didn't just PLAN to make the software free, in your thread "Designing New, Free Software", you STATED that it would be free.

My question to you is : How does this maneuver differ from "Bait and Switch" as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary?

bait and switch

n.

1. A fraudulent advertising claim or sales offer for a product or service that is not available or not for sale at the stated price, made with the intention of luring customers who are then offered something else or forced to spend more money to get the same thing.
2. A deception based on a false claim or enticement that proves to be disappointing.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Dave never made a sale offer according to the following:

“I am considering adding an option for manual data entry. How many of you would be interested in software that supported that?”

He goes further with his query with an explanation “if” you decide by stating:

“Note that it would come with a monthly usage fee of around $25 per month”


This in my opinion is a typical marketing query to test the market for additional features to add to a product.

[mikesal57]

I cant believe that he's at it again......

better watch you don't burn out again.... :lol:

[Mr.XXX]

Stronzo.

[mikesal57]

Stronzo.

really???

you must be a relative...

[Dave Schwartz]

I had to take a small step backwards to facilitate the design allowing for entering your own data.

Just so everyone is aware, the software will function both ways: Data and No Data.

Obviously, the Data users will have way more features but even they will probably want some of their own data entry. What I mean is that there are several ways to integrate your picks, handicapping, and opinions into the program beyond just picking pacelines and contenders.

Make no mistake - this is not JUST a pace handicapping program. Its actual design is as an Information Presentation Platform.

That's my way of saying that you use it to look at what you want, when you want, how you want and integrate it into your decision process. There are many different ways to do that.

Some people will want to do a pure Sartinesque approach. Pick contenders, pick pacelines, interpret the model.

Others will want to look at a more fuzzified approach, weighting speed, pace, class, form, trainer, jockey, etc. together to come up with a number.

Still others will want to integrate picks from other sources. (I have spoken of this feature before.) Of course, those "picks" will need to be tracked for performance.

All of this together can best be summed up as "Hybrid Handicapping:" Picking the best from different paradigms and arenas of knowledge and combining them together in one answer.

I am so glad I thought to ask the "manual data entry" question.