RPM Information Systems Software Complaint

[cardinalsfan]

I have a few issues with RPM Information Systems software I would like to share and hear feedback on:

* The software never uses the exact rules of the paper and pencil system. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Why is this? Is the programmer trying to improve the system? Can the programmer not program certain things so the rules are changed to accommodate his skills (I don't think this is the case as I hear he has a lot of experience). Bottom line, I'm all for improving things but it the paper and pencil system is a great as advertised, why do they change the system so drastically when it is programmed into software?????

* Why does RPM's programmer chose to use the SR + variant number when the original paper and pencil method suggest using the BRIS number? Use the SR + variant when appropriate, but not when the BRIS speed number works better. Again, the software does NOT match they paper and pencil system.

* RPM advertises ROI and win percent numbers that seem reasonable but I doubt any of their software, with all the programming changes they have EVER been profitable. Please, RPM, if I am wrong about this post the software name and recap info here and I will buy it to verify.

While I do think some of RPM's paper and pencil systems have some merit, until they start programming their software to duplicate the paper and pencil method I will not buy anymore. I should mention that it looks like somebody else programs the Console software and it is decent, although none of it is a "black box".

If you must make changes from the paper and pencil method, so be it. Just give us two options. One that looks like the original method and another with your "improvements".

I bring this up for discussion not wanting to attack anybody. Believe me, I couldn't program anything in any fashion so i have the utmost of respect for those that have this skill. I would just like to hear other's opinions on this and the the folks from RPM want to chime it, I would welcome a respectful conversation.

[completebill]

I've known Dave Powers (aka Clint Tracy) for many years. He used to handicap for the Racing Digest, and is a good handicapper. He sells a service giving selections and his proprietary Power Numbers, which is truly excellent.

I believe he still sells his book, teaching how to calculate his Power Numbers. It's worthwhile.

BUT---The computer systems he sells, including those featuring Tom Console's junk, are worthless--DO NOT buy them!!

Dave is a great guy (Except for the exaggerated win % & R.O.I.s for all the computer programs!). He does sell some useful products, but there are few computer programs that really are top-rate. He sells none of them!

In my experience, he's always been good about returns and refunds.

THE Big Three are HSH, Jcapper, and HTR. I'm dubious about HSH, myself. Dave Schwartz does have a good program, but many people, including myself, believe that he holds back "The Best" for private clients, charging them big $$.

JCapper--Terrific Program, with GREAT service. Costs $$ to buy.

HTR--My choice. Program is free, the "vendor", Ken Massa, is constantly researching and improving, adding super proprietary factors, and updates are free. For what it's worth, HTR users are by far the the most dominant Tournament wieners.

[cardinalsfan]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one that feels the same way. I've liked several pen and paper methods (mostly by Dick Johnson) but completely will not buy any of the corresponding software after buying Safe and Sure many years ago and realizing it was different than the P &P method.

I am going to check out the software you suggested. Thanks very much for that.

Anyone else have any software suggestions or experiences with RPM's software?

[thaskalos]

I've known Dave Powers (aka Clint Tracy) for many years. He used to handicap for the Racing Digest, and is a good handicapper. He sells a service giving selections and his proprietary Power Numbers, which is truly excellent.

I believe he still sells his book, teaching how to calculate his Power Numbers. It's worthwhile.

BUT---The computer systems he sells, including those featuring Tom Console's junk, are worthless--DO NOT buy them!!

Dave is a great guy (Except for the exaggerated win % & R.O.I.s for all the computer programs!). He does sell some useful products, but there are few computer programs that really are top-rate. He sells none of them!

In my experience, he's always been good about returns and refunds.

THE Big Three are HSH, Jcapper, and HTR. I'm dubious about HSH, myself. Dave Schwartz does have a good program, but many people, including myself, believe that he holds back "The Best" for private clients, charging them big $$.

JCapper--Terrific Program, with GREAT service. Costs $$ to buy.

HTR--My choice. Program is free, the "vendor", Ken Massa, is constantly researching and improving, adding super proprietary factors, and updates are free. For what it's worth, HTR users are by far the the most dominant Tournament wieners.

I was a good customer of RPM many years ago...and I even talked to Dave Powers once on the phone. I recall him telling me that Clint Tracy was the finest horseplayer he had ever seen. They spent a lot of time together...he told me. :)

[NorCalGreg]

Just got a mailer from RPM today--Announcing "Mystery Man" Dr William Nill's Methodology finally revealed! There's a picture of an elderly gentleman, probably Clint's dad...or maybe Clint himself(he can't be young anymore).

All their software programs are exactly the same. Len C (the programmer) is apparently too lazy to change the format of any programs---just the name. The all have the same pop-up boxes for earnings, pace, T/J, that ridiculous "kelly" class rating box. Some still have the name from programs they were used in years ago---Len didn't even bother to change or update the name. For example, I use the Tips Program....click on one of the boxes.....it has the name of "Superstars of Handicapping" one of their old programs.

I have mentioned this program before (TIPS)...this is----to my knowledge---the ONLY software the RPM people have ever given a sh*t about, and that was only because it's late paper and pencil author--Tom Worth--well his son insisted the program must be true to the P & P method-- Or he wouldn't approve it. Anything else by these clowns from what I've seen is garbage.

I knew this beforehand, but just had to look....I googled the address on the mailer using STREET VIEW, and just as I thought---it's a UPS store in a strip mall, next to a massage joint. I'm sure ol' Clint works out of a home office and doesn't want any one coming to his house LOL. I wouldn't either :D
-NCG

[ebcorde]

How much money you think these guys pull in?

[pandy]

How much money you think these guys pull in?


Dave used to have a huge mailing list. I had a 20,000 mailing list myself years ago. But those days are long gone.

[cardinalsfan]

Luckily there are decent guys out there writing well researched material but the are few and far between.

I get it that when you have a handicapping software business, you may feel the need to churn out new stuff ask the time. Wouldn't it be better to produce quality material and have a wider customer base? Again, back to the Safe and Sure Method I bought from RPM. The paper and pencil method produced a little better than break even, the software was a huge loser. C'mon guys, put out a little more effort!

Anyway, I know there is none magic "black box", but I will try out some of the suggested software I have seen recommended on this forum.

Dave/Clint...get your act together.

[cardinalsfan]

Sorry for all the misspelled words in my last post. Spellcheck got the best of me. :-)

[cbp]

I'd rather go for the $99 paint job @ Earl Scheib

[NorCalGreg]

Dave used to have a huge mailing list. I had a 20,000 mailing list myself years ago. But those days are long gone.


Have you stopped promoting your wares (other than on the website) Pandy?

[cbp]

Dave Schwartz does have a good program, but many people, including myself, believe that he holds back "The Best" for private clients, charging them big $$.

Interesting. I thought he wasn't profitable until recently, when one of his clients clued him in.

[Tom]

What ever happened to Mike Warren?

[NorCalGreg]

I'd rather go for the $99 paint job @ Earl Scheib


OMG Earl Scheib....I actually had a car painted at one of his franchises. I think it was $199.00 though. Funny thing was--There was this big dirt clod on the top of the trunk...they painted right over the dirt clod! When the dirt clod fell off, the paint fell off!
When I went back to complain--they had closed up shop. I bought a can of spray paint and painted that dirt-clod spot. Luckily, someone crashed into me and totaled it anyway.

[rlopez781]

Mike Warren is the biggest scam in sports betting.He's still at it with MikeWarrensports.com and claims 75% winners against the spread w/his new "IWIN" system that's going to put Vegas out of business.He says,"Just name the game,and i'll give you the winner"...

Most are junk,but his best is TIPS.The problem is he doesn't notify the past buyers who paid a lot of money of recent updates of newer versions when it comes out.The website is selling version 6.0 or 6.3,but the guy I sat next to a racebook here in Vegas is using version 8.0.
Tom Console has his new RPG,Optimum being sold thru RPM also.A database/modeler program that will make you almost a millionaire in a year or so....

[cardinalsfan]

I believe RPM started out with best intentions but then found out it is easier and faster to quickly produce shoddy software and then promote it well. Kind of like Norris Strauss (Gemini Press, and a dozen other companies who's names I can't remember). Funny thing, Strauss also sold a few legit methods among the garbage he produced.

[thaskalos]

I believe RPM started out with best intentions but then found out it is easier and faster to quickly produce shoddy software and then promote it well. Kind of like Norris Strauss (Gemini Press, and a dozen other companies who's names I can't remember). Funny thing, Strauss also sold a few legit methods among the garbage he produced.

They say that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The tip-off for me is how many different "winning systems" the system mill is shelling out. If I see a catalog filled with "winning systems"...then I quickly put it in the circular file, where it belongs.

[NorCalGreg]

I was a good customer of RPM many years ago...and I even talked to Dave Powers once on the phone. I recall him telling me that Clint Tracy was the finest horseplayer he had ever seen. They spent a lot of time together...he told me. :)

Ol' Dave spent a lot of time with Clint, did he? :D

[cardinalsfan]

They say that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The tip-off for me is how many different "winning systems" the system mill is shelling out. If I see a catalog filled with "winning systems"...then I quickly put it in the circular file, where it belongs.


Good point!

[upthecreek]

Got this one in the mail yesterday
http://rpmhandicappinggiant.com/jon-worths-the-elite-eight-hard-copyebooksoftware-super-high-winplaceshow-s-free-new-parlaybankroll-plan/

Only going to sell 250 copies of the book and 150 software program's-yea right Theyll sell 1000 if they can

[pandy]

Have you stopped promoting your wares (other than on the website) Pandy?


I haven't advertised since a post card mailing I did three years ago. I may do another mailing, though, not sure. It can be cost prohibitive. My mailing list is only 2,000, which isn't bad.

Since I post free picks and live tests of my new methods on my website, it's effective and inexpensive marketing...The power of the internet.

[cbp]

I haven't advertised since a post card mailing I did three years ago. I may do another mailing, though, not sure. It can be cost prohibitive. My mailing list is only 2,000, which isn't bad.

Since I post free picks and live tests of my new methods on my website, it's effective and inexpensive marketing...The power of the internet.

So, you're not a winning player, yet others (at least 2000) are willing to pay you to teach them how to win?

[pandy]

So, you're not a winning player, yet others (at least 2000) are willing to pay you to teach them how to win?


I've been betting horses for over 40 years and I've shown a profit over that time, so I think that's pretty good. But the proof is always there on my website. Right now the latest method I'm LIVE testing has produced an ROI of $2.44 on $2 win bets with 24% winners. And as I tweak it the results have actually improved, 7 wins in last 24 picks with these prices $44.10, $25.20, $24.80, $14.60, $10.00, $3.40, $3.20. I bet all of them and I also had the $255 exacta that was also given out for free on the website. Let's see your live picks. I'd like to see if you can show a 44% profit.

[cbp]

If you're winning, then why are you hawking? One would think after 40 years winning would be enough and you wouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone.

I've posted a ton of bombs. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

[pandy]

If you're winning, then why are you hawking? One would think after 40 years winning would be enough and you wouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone.

I've posted a ton of bombs. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.


I'm a racing journalist, have been since my early twenties. I've done radio, television, seminars, and, of course, writing, reporting, editing, and publishing. It's fun, I like it, I think I'm pretty good at it. I'm not a professional gambler, never intended to be. I bet everyday and I like helping others get more enjoyment out of handicapping and betting horses. Handicapping is an evolving art, as you may know. You always have to prove yourself.

[PaceAdvantage]

He's posted plenty of bombs...didn't you hear him? :lol: :bang:

[NorCalGreg]

I haven't advertised since a post card mailing I did three years ago. I may do another mailing, though, not sure. It can be cost prohibitive. My mailing list is only 2,000, which isn't bad.

Since I post free picks and live tests of my new methods on my website, it's effective and inexpensive marketing...The power of the internet.

The reason I asked if you were still promoting your wares, Pandy....I've mentioned a few times I use the Bris Summary as a major part of my handicapping. As you know I've purchased your software (bleh) and your Pace Spot Play Paper&Pencil method (love it). I didn't even know you had a Bris Summary Method----Why? Because ya don't advertise the dang thing! I had to stumble upon it 6-7 weeks ago to purchase it.
Enough out of me LOL. Do your job, Pandy. Hire CBP to beat up dead-beats that don't wanna pay up. I'll be your Marketing Dir. Give the nice P.A. man his remittance for advertising, for the love of God have that Al Gore website updated, and I will be glad to mention how I'm NOT using the Bris Summary, and Not using your Consistent Number Method, to Not hit winners.
Good day sir!
-NCG

[cbp]

He's posted plenty of bombs...didn't you hear him? :lol: :bang:
You've witnessed quite a few of them. And, I didn't need CJ to get an opinion. :lol: :lol:

[cbp]

I'm a racing journalist, have been since my early twenties. I've done radio, television, seminars, and, of course, writing, reporting, editing, and publishing. It's fun, I like it, I think I'm pretty good at it. I'm not a professional gambler, never intended to be. I bet everyday and I like helping others get more enjoyment out of handicapping and betting horses. Handicapping is an evolving art, as you may know. You always have to prove yourself.

I don't know, with the exceptions of AWS, smaller fields and a lot more exotics, the game plays pretty much the same for me as it did in the 80's.

[whodoyoulike]

... It's fun, I like it, I think I'm pretty good at it. I'm not a professional gambler, never intended to be. I bet everyday and I like helping others get more enjoyment out of handicapping and betting horses. Handicapping is an evolving art, as you may know. You always have to prove yourself.


People don't understand this aspect of handicapping and betting horses or gambling in general.

I'm wondering what cbp's problem really is?

[cbp]

People don't understand this aspect of handicapping and betting horses or gambling in general.

I'm wondering what cbp's problem really is?

Why would I have a problem? I encounter philanthropic non-winners daily. All the pro's are on this site selling good stuff. It's not enough that they win, they want their competitors to also win. Makes my heart feel good.

[whodoyoulike]

Why would I have a problem? I encounter philanthropic non-winners daily. All the pro's are on this site selling good stuff. It's not enough that they win, they want their competitors to also win. Makes my heart feel good.

I'm just noticing your recent posts and I'm concluding you do have a problem which is coming out in them. You should get out more. Attend seminars, talk to other handicappers etc. and absorb what info these "pros" are trying to help others understand, things which aren't readily apparent to most. You don't have to buy into their stuff 100%. Form your own opinion and make your own evaluations. You're an adult (I think and hope?).

I look at it this way .... this is a difficult game and people are easily discouraged. They help others in order to keep them in the game by improving their knowledge base whether it's possible is up to the intelligence of the recipient not the intelligence of the "pros". I do have a problem with individuals who provide b.s. because they're intentionally trying to mislead for their own agenda.

[pandy]

The reason I asked if you were still promoting your wares, Pandy....I've mentioned a few times I use the Bris Summary as a major part of my handicapping. As you know I've purchased your software (bleh) and your Pace Spot Play Paper&Pencil method (love it). I didn't even know you had a Bris Summary Method----Why? Because ya don't advertise the dang thing! I had to stumble upon it 6-7 weeks ago to purchase it.
Enough out of me LOL. Do your job, Pandy. Hire CBP to beat up dead-beats that don't wanna pay up. I'll be your Marketing Dir. Give the nice P.A. man his remittance for advertising, for the love of God have that Al Gore website updated, and I will be glad to mention how I'm NOT using the Bris Summary, and Not using your Consistent Number Method, to Not hit winners.
Good day sir!
-NCG

Thanks. Glad you don't like my stuff. LOL

[Pensacola Pete]

What ever happened to Mike Warren?


Mike Lasky, a.k.a. Warren found out that there was a bigger market in sports betting.

RPM seems to have 50 methods that hit a positive ROI of 40%+, while everybody else is struggling to break even. Enough said on them.

[pandy]

Mike Lasky, a.k.a. Warren found out that there was a bigger market in sports betting.

RPM seems to have 50 methods that hit a positive ROI of 40%+, while everybody else is struggling to break even. Enough said on them.

Warren is a phony, but probably made a lot of money. The scam some of these sports handicapping services use is they give out both sides of a game to say 100 suckers. Half of the people win, they call the winners and tell them that they have a lock coming up....but because it's a lock the price to get the pick is much higher.

I'm probably the only handicapping author who uses real stats and runs real time testing of my methods on my website.

[cardinalsfan]

Warren is a phony, but probably made a lot of money. The scam some of these sports handicapping services use is they give out both sides of a game to say 100 suckers. Half of the people win, they call the winners and tell them that they have a lock coming up....but because it's a lock the price to get the pick is much higher.

I'm probably the only handicapping author who uses real stats and runs real time testing of my methods on my website.


You do have some legit items unlike the software mills like RPM.

[pandy]

You do have some legit items unlike the software mills like RPM.


Thank you. There's a severe lack of integrity in so many businesses, and politics, it's unfortunate. My dad was a stockbroker and I remember when he was pressured at work because he refused to sell new bonds that were issued on Rockefeller Center to his customers. The bonds eventually went bust and everyone who purchased them lost their money. When his manager tried to pressure him to sell the bonds, my dad told him, "I sleep well at night. Do you?"

[dartman51]

MIKE WARREN, wow!! There's a name I haven't heard in a while. I still have the first handicapping book I ever purchased, way back in 1980. Mike Warren's 'How To Rob Racetracks Legally....THE METHOD'. :D

[JimG]

Mike Warren's 'How To Rob Racetracks Legally....THE METHOD'. :D

It should have been called How to Rob Horseplayers Legally. Then you open it up, it was one sentence long and says:

You bought this didn't you?

[Dave Schwartz]

There's a severe lack of integrity in so many businesses, and politics, it's unfortunate. My dad was a stockbroker and I remember when he was pressured at work because he refused to sell new bonds that were issued on Rockefeller Center to his customers. The bonds eventually went bust and everyone who purchased them lost their money. When his manager tried to pressure him to sell the bonds, my dad told him, "I sleep well at night. Do you?"

I had an old friend who worked for Merrill Lynch when they had those commercials that said, "We make money the old fashion way... we earn it"

His finish for that sentence was: "... We steal it."

[cardinalsfan]

Thank you. There's a severe lack of integrity in so many businesses, and politics, it's unfortunate. My dad was a stockbroker and I remember when he was pressured at work because he refused to sell new bonds that were issued on Rockefeller Center to his customers. The bonds eventually went bust and everyone who purchased them lost their money. When his manager tried to pressure him to sell the bonds, my dad told him, "I sleep well at night. Do you?"


When a person puts out a handicapping product and advertises it honestly, that's all we can ask for. Then we can have more discussions about how the product works, different ways people use the product, etc.. When they produce products without integrity, we have discussions such as this one. You are right, integrity is key.

[PaceAdvantage]

You've witnessed quite a few of them. And, I didn't need CJ to get an opinion. :lol: :lol:Jealous much?

[raybo]

When a person puts out a handicapping product and advertises it honestly, that's all we can ask for. Then we can have more discussions about how the product works, different ways people use the product, etc.. When they produce products without integrity, we have discussions such as this one. You are right, integrity is key.

The problem with advertisements, regarding the potential user/client, is that it's tough to determine the goal, or priority, of the creator (to help the user be more successful, or to simply make profit). And likewise, it's tough for the creator, in that he/she must somehow "prove" that the product has real value for the user/client. In other words --- words are just words, and mean little without substantiation. Another tough thing, for both, is the learning curve involved. The creator, naturally, knows all there is to know about the proper operation and usage of the product, while the user may not give the product a viable test or be unable to understand and grasp the operation and usage of the product, as it was intended by the creator. Almost invariably, the creator will be able to use the product more successfully than the average user. Does that mean the product is not viable, or does it mean that the user does not, or cannot, use the product as it was intended?

[raybo]

Why would I have a problem? I encounter philanthropic non-winners daily. All the pro's are on this site selling good stuff. It's not enough that they win, they want their competitors to also win. Makes my heart feel good.

The "pros" you speak of here know that the only way to continue being successful is for the game to continue and thrive, meaning horse racing must be here in the future. Personally, the one thing I can do to help the game continue is to help those players who have not been particularly successful and may soon quit the game, become more successful players. By doing that, one does not diminish one's own success by sharing their methods/tools, one enhances the probability that the game will still be here in the future. Without the game, there can be no "pros".

[Tom]

If you're winning, then why are you hawking? One would think after 40 years winning would be enough and you wouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone.

I've posted a ton of bombs. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Believe me when I tell you, no one cares.

[Endearus]

I had an old friend who worked for Merrill Lynch when they had those commercials that said, "We make money the old fashion way... we earn it"

His finish for that sentence was: "... We steal it."

Not Merrill. It was Paine Weber, with John Housman.

[ReplayRandall]

Not Merrill. It was Paine Weber, with John Housman.

Nope....Smith Barney was the company with the line, spoken by John Houseman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAMRXqQXemU

[pandy]

Barney and Smith were separate brokerage firms started in the late 1800's and they merged in 1937. From what I've read, Smith Barney had a solid reputation as a more conservative firm but Citigroup (with Travelers) bought a controlling share of the company in 1998 and things went downhill fast. Citigroup, after several scandals, destroyed the reputation of Smith Barney and then sold out to Morgan Stanley after incurring huge losses. Morgan Stanley dropped the Smith Barney name in 2012.

I'm sure that family members of Smith Barney were not happy that their father's hard work and reputation were destroyed and their name abandoned. Shameful.

[Dave Schwartz]

Not Merrill. It was Paine Weber, with John Housman.

Thanks for setting me straight.


Nope....Smith Barney was the company with the line, spoken by John Houseman:

Thanks for setting HIM straight.

:ThmbUp:

[deron52]

try the exotics buster find what the kelly in your on turn like low kelly vs high kelly

[NorCalGreg]

try the exotics buster find what the kelly in your on turn like low kelly vs high kelly


easy for you to say......seriously, deron---did you have any luck with the alleged "exotics buster"? That program came free with the TIPS software. The absolute only use I found for it was a quick-and-dirty trainer/jockey screen, when I didn't have PP's for that track or day. Other than that, nada. I finally deleted it a few mos. ago.

[Pensacola Pete]

The investment company commercials had their heyday in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Smith Barney was Houseman's often-uttered line: "Smith Barney makes money the old fashioned way. They (whispered) earn it."

Paine Weber did celebrities that said: "Thank you, Paine Weber."

E. F. Hutton had the commercial where a person, in a setting full of lively conversations and/or music, would say "My broker is E. F. Hutton, and E.F. Hutton says": and the room would fall silent, people would exaggeratedly cock their heads in the direction of the speaker, and the announcer woulld intone off-camera: "When E. F. Hutton talks, people listen."

Then there was the "Merrill Lynch is bullish on America," line.

[cardinalsfan]

RPM Information Systems stoops to a new low. They are now selling a system under Jon Worth's name that is IDENTICAL to one Robert McDaniels has been selling for the past 10+ years!!!! They didn't even bother to retype it. Just changed the name to brand it as Jon Worth's and put it up on their website. So, not only are their programs atrocious (even the most basic calculations do not match the paper and pencil system or even make sense), now they're looking more and more like a Strauss/Mike Warren-like system mill. They started off offering some good stuff but now I would not waste the electricity it takes for my computer to go to their website. RPM...clean it up - hire a real computer programmer and get back to original systems - or get out!!!

[cardinalsfan]

That last post should have said RPM is labeling other's systems as their own, not other's software.

[pandy]

That last post should have said RPM is labeling other's systems as their own, not other's software.


Many years ago I found out that he was selling something I wrote. He just changed the name.

[reckless]

The investment company commercials had their heyday in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Smith Barney was Houseman's often-uttered line: "Smith Barney makes money the old fashioned way. They (whispered) earn it."

Paine Weber did celebrities that said: "Thank you, Paine Weber."

E. F. Hutton had the commercial where a person, in a setting full of lively conversations and/or music, would say "My broker is E. F. Hutton, and E.F. Hutton says": and the room would fall silent, people would exaggeratedly cock their heads in the direction of the speaker, and the announcer woulld intone off-camera: "When E. F. Hutton talks, people listen."

Then there was the "Merrill Lynch is bullish on America," [/B].

All were good commercials when brokerage and investment houses did in fact adhere to the now silly notion of fudiciary responsibility to the client. Yes, they all took a commission but the customer was also considered an asset back then. Now, we're just pests and treated as a focus group item to be sold to some marketing firm.

Here is one of the first commercials I enjoyed seeing as a youngster, often shown on CBS during NFL games back in the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7yuEn8lh5M

[cardinalsfan]

That's such a shame. My hope is that Jon Worth is not aware of what is going on. His father was one of the very few people that put out useful information in his day. I feel he always had the horseplayer's best interest in mind and did not take advantage of them. Never did I buy single item from him and feel ripped off.

RPM's reported workouts are typically false. I did a workout on one of their systems in which I had all of the same forms to check. Their workout appeared to be a complete fabrication.

All I can say to RPM is clean up your act. You do put out useful material from time to time. Nothing that will get anyone rich but something a good handicapper can build on. The problem, at this point I think of you as running a system mill and you have lost my trust.

Dave? Tracy? Tom C? Jon W? Comment anyone???

[cardinalsfan]

I'm not a schill for Pandy our anyone else but the material he and many others on this website put out should show RPM the way. Pandy's information is well-researched, well explained, priced fairly and always had value. Again, there are several on this website that produce the same type of material. To all of you I say thank you. To RPM information Services I say, get a clue.

[green80]

The amazing thing about Mike Warren is that he has been in business over 40 years. I remember getting his newsletters back in the early 70's. That has got to be a record for somebody that can't pick a winner.

[cardinalsfan]

I had to check it out for myself. Amazingly, you are right, Mike Warren is still in business! I'm wondering if it's actually him or if it's just somebody using his name.

[pandy]

I had to check it out for myself. Amazingly, you are right, Mike Warren is still in business! I'm wondering if it's actually him or if it's just somebody using his name.


Mike Warren Lasky, his real name, who knows with this guy. He started the Psychic Friends Network (remember with Dionne Warwick?). He's had all sorts of lawsuits and complaints filed against him and his phoney business ventures, yet apparently he made a lot of money, even though some of his scams went bankrupt.

Apparently a few years ago he was selling some bogus course for $995 that was supposed to teach people how to make money off of judgements, liens, and options, or some crazy thing. The people got the course and there was nothing to it so they filed for the "guaranteed refund." Only then did they find out that there was a $150 "restocking" fee. There'a always a catch with Lasky.

Amazingly, I don't think Lasky has ever been in jail.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-03-08/features/1998067148_1_psychic-friends-lasky-harbor-inn

[betovernetcapper]

I just looked at their site & they have 80 software programs & 86 paper & pencil methods for sale. Amazingly all are easy to use, & win HUGE profits as if by magic. :rolleyes:

[Pensacola Pete]

Lasky, aka "Mike Warren" has been around since the early 1970s. He started selling horse racing systems and a horse racing selection service. When sports betting got big in the early 1980s, he, Eddie "The Professor" Horowitz, Stu Feiner, and of course Jim Feist all opened boiler room operations with multiple service names that touted sports picks.

Warren played the inverse pyramid scheme with a base of 512 marks (suckers): he looked for games that figured to be volatile and would easily cover for one side or the other. Warren didn't' care which side won as long as the score covered easily for one side or the other. He gave out both sides to different customers: half to one, half to the other. The first pick was free; the second was free to the losers and a nominal fee to the winners. The double winners would be charged a bit more for the third pick, triple winners more for the next, etc. Those who were fed a large number of winners could usually be milked to pay for another selection. The unlucky last guy who had 8 straight winners would be socked for a good piece of change for the next "lock," and the mark would be socked as long as he kept winning. Five-figure payoffs weren't unheard of.

Horowitz operated differently; he didn't double-side games. Instead, he had 10 to 20 fictitious companies, all in the same boiler room, touting games. If a company had a bad record with a mark, the mark would be sent to another company brand, who would assure that mark that the previous "company" was a dud, but that their company was hot. If the mark finally had enough and wouldn't shell out any more, the name was sold to somebody else. Horowitz was a heavy cocaine user, and so were most of his salesmen. The coke flowed freely in the boiler rooms, courtesy of The Professor. He'd be about 74 today, and I haven't heard a word about him since at least 1998, so I would assume he's long since passed on. Horowitz was a horrible handicapper and is purported to once lose over 60 straight baseball plays.

Feiner was a fast-talking hustler who actually tried to make his clients money. To that end, Feiner paid noted sports handicapper Bob "Mr. America" McCune (McCune won the Mr. America title in the late 1940's) $1,500 per month for McCune's sports seletions (McCune normally charged clients $300), with the understanding that Feiner could then tout 3 of McCune's picks as his own, per sport, on a given day. McCune ordinarily hit about 57-58% against the spread (52.5% was roughly break even against a 20 cent -110 line then) and would make about 8% profit against the baseball "dime line." Feiner had the same arrangement with other handicappers and did quite well. Apparently he's still around.

The king of the sports touts was unquestionably Jim Feist, not so much in ability to pick as in ability to market. Feist took the best of Horowitz's multi-company marketing, Feiner's sales pitches, and the surge (in the late 1980's and pre-internet 1990's) of 1-900 number branding, and spun an aura of solid reputation. In reality, Feist was the worst handicapper on the planet; he never had a winning record in any Hilton NFL contest. Most of the guys who worked for him didn't do much better, Dave Cokin being an exception, and few had records that exceeded the 52.5% needed to break even. Feist also had a deal with bookies (probably those based in New York and Miami). If the books were getting clobbered on one side, Feist would make the other side his Best Bet of the day. The Best Bet had a long track record of about 42-45% against the spread, and many high rollers would purchase it so they could play the opposite.

Lasky/Warren moved from sports betting to get-rich-quick schemes in the new millennium and had pieces of various infomercials. He still runs a sports selection service, and who knows how many other things.

[pandy]

I know that many people don't want more government control but the gov't should not allow these types of businesses The tout service where they give out both sides to two different groups of customers, a common practice, is fraud. It was easy to prove and the FBI could have easily signed up for their service and caught them in the act. I don't understand why the Feds allow people to get scammed so easily in this country.

Another thing that shouldn't be allowed is these short term high interest rate loans, such as the one that Montel Williams hawks on TVG. You can get a better rate from a loan shark. But, finally state governments are doing something to protect consumers.

This year N.Y. state joined 14 other states in limiting the amount of interest rate a lending company can charge. Some of these companies charge 500 to as high as 750% interest annually! The new law prohibit these companies from operating in N.Y. , and other states as well.

[Pensacola Pete]

I know that many people don't want more government control but the gov't should not allow these types of businesses The tout service where they give out both sides to two different groups of customers, a common practice, is fraud. It was easy to prove and the FBI could have easily signed up for their service and caught them in the act. I

A reverse pyramid is almost unheard of nowadays, because social media makes it too easy to bust the scammers. It was very common up to about 1995 (when the internet as we know it began to get popular). Oddly, it came to a virtual end in 1996, when two high-rollers were sitting at the Mirage sports book and talking about their bets. They found out that their "lock of the year" was opposite sides of the same game from the same source, and they raised a big stink about it, and it made it to Usenet. More people complained of the same thing, and this version of a reverse pyramid faded from view. The touts who wanted to continue the practice gravitated to double-siding single games, usually those between top teams on national TV, and the double-side from separate brands/companies.

Double-siding wasn't usually done under a specific brand name. Warren didn't use his own name. His boiler-room touts did it under various names, with Warren organizing and orchestrating the process.

[pandy]

I know that one of the characters in the movie Two For The Money is based on Brandon Lang, but I can't remember who Al Pacino was supposed to be.

[dartman51]

I know that one of the characters in the movie Two For The Money is based on Brandon Lang, but I can't remember who Al Pacino was supposed to be.


I'm thinking, Walter Abrams.

[NorCalGreg]

"Another thing that shouldn't be allowed is these short term high interest rate loans, such as the one that Montel Williams hawks on TVG. You can get a better rate from a loan shark. But, finally state governments are doing something to protect consumers."

I thought people wanted LESS Govt involvement in their personal business?

The terms of these loans are CLEARLY spelled out--the Govt should protect people from THEMSELVES? There are sharks everywhere looking to separate a fool from his money--that's just the way life, society, and human nature is.

They gladly enter into these loans--then scream "predatory lender". Yes, they are usually a low-income group---but I suspect they are also generally a "low-IQ" group.

I don't apologize for NOT being a whiny liberal with handouts--everyone is responsible for themselves in my world.

-NCG

EDIT: I DO apologize for the content of this post--it doesn't actually belong in this thread

[thaskalos]

"Another thing that shouldn't be allowed is these short term high interest rate loans, such as the one that Montel Williams hawks on TVG. You can get a better rate from a loan shark. But, finally state governments are doing something to protect consumers."

I thought people wanted LESS Govt involvement in their personal business?

The terms of these loans are CLEARLY spelled out--the Govt should protect people from THEMSELVES? There are sharks everywhere looking to separate a fool from his money--that's just the way life, society, and human nature is.

They gladly enter into these loans--then scream "predatory lender". Yes, they are usually a low-income group---but I suspect they are also generally a "low-IQ" group.

I don't apologize for NOT being a whiny liberal with handouts--everyone is responsible for themselves in my world.

-NCG

EDIT: I DO apologize for the content of this post--it doesn't actually belong in this thread
The government is coming into our cars to force us to "buckle up"...and you are talking about the evils of "government involvement"? If our leaders can't protect us from predatory loan practices...then, why do they pretend to care about us in other, INSIGNIFICANT ways?

[pandy]

"Another thing that shouldn't be allowed is these short term high interest rate loans, such as the one that Montel Williams hawks on TVG. You can get a better rate from a loan shark. But, finally state governments are doing something to protect consumers."

I thought people wanted LESS Govt involvement in their personal business?

The terms of these loans are CLEARLY spelled out--the Govt should protect people from THEMSELVES? There are sharks everywhere looking to separate a fool from his money--that's just the way life, society, and human nature is.

They gladly enter into these loans--then scream "predatory lender". Yes, they are usually a low-income group---but I suspect they are also generally a "low-IQ" group.

I don't apologize for NOT being a whiny liberal with handouts--everyone is responsible for themselves in my world.

-NCG

EDIT: I DO apologize for the content of this post--it doesn't actually belong in this thread

You have to have government oversight because there are too many unscrupulous people out there. And don't forget, not everyone who falls for these things has a low IQ. How about senior citizens? Shouldn't they be protected? My mom turns 90 in a few days and although she's doing pretty good, she wouldn't have a clue if a company was trying to take advantage of her.

[Tom]

The government is coming into our cars to force us to "buckle up"...and you are talking about the evils of "government involvement"? If our leaders can't protect us from predatory loan practices...then, why do they pretend to care about us in other, INSIGNIFICANT ways?

Ticket fodder.
Got to pay for those cops sitting in wait all the time.

[NorCalGreg]

You have to have government oversight because there are too many unscrupulous people out there. And don't forget, not everyone who falls for these things has a low IQ. How about senior citizens? Shouldn't they be protected? My mom turns 90 in a few days and although she's doing pretty good, she wouldn't have a clue if a company was trying to take advantage of her.

But pandy,thask---I'm NOT the guy that was bitching about Govt Drones in the sky. Hell, I want MORE DRONES..I want to go outside to get my paper, and see a friggin' drone in the sky.

I'm absolutely not against our Govt--yes, there are people who sign up for these loans that need protection...also people that don't wear a seatbelt, dont wear a helmet on a motorcycle, and a million other "poor decisions".

So we pick and choose now, our personal choices of govt overseeing?

Norman Rockwell died a long time ago---it's time to face the reality of America today.

[Southbaygent]

In agreement here, NCG. "Personal responsibility" no one wants any part of it anymore
http://steppingstonesaz.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Personal-Responsibility.jpg

[thaskalos]

But pandy,thask---I'm NOT the guy that was bitching about Govt Drones in the sky. Hell, I want MORE DRONES..I want to go outside to get my paper, and see a friggin' drone in the sky.

I'm absolutely not against our Govt--yes, there are people who sign up for these loans that need protection...also people that don't wear a seatbelt, dont wear a helmet on a motorcycle, and a million other "poor decisions".

So we pick and choose now, our personal choices of govt overseeing?

Norman Rockwell died a long time ago---it's time to face the reality of America today.
The citizens need to be protected FROM the government. Leave the people alone, I say...and stop pretending that you "care" for them...even as you have your hand elbow-deep in their pocket.

The government is the ENEMY...and any "power" and "wealth" that the government has, it steals from its citizens. Those drones should be used to keep an eye on the politicians THEMSELVES.

[Pensacola Pete]

Let us now turn to page 44 of our hymn book and sing "Bringing in the Sheaves."

[pandy]

There are people that simply aren't that smart, through no fault of their own. They were born that way. There are also people who aren't that smart because they were raised in poverty, dropped out of school or went to work at a young age. Society shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the less fortunate. Moreover, even reasonably intelligent people can make one mistake, especially when they find themselves in a stressful situation. I hate to see people get screwed because they made a bad decision. Everyone makes bad decisions sometimes.

We could take this conversation in another direction. Should a company be allowed to charge $600 for a drug that cost a few dollars to make and that could say your child's life? Do only people that are rich or have good health insurance deserve the right to protect their health, or do we just let them get screwed, too?

[JimG]

Is the "Off Topic" section of this board not large enough for you all? I'm no fan of RPM but at least it is supposed to be about horse racing.

[Mulerider]

But pandy,thask---I'm NOT the guy that was bitching about Govt Drones in the sky. Hell, I want MORE DRONES..I want to go outside to get my paper, and see a friggin' drone in the sky.



The more I read about drones, the more I think my alternate hobbies of sporting clays and skeet might come in handy someday.

Mule

[Speed Figure]

Is the "Off Topic" section of this board not large enough for you all? I'm no fan of RPM but at least it is supposed to be about horse racing.
I was thinking the same thing! What does all this have to do with handicapping software!

[pandy]

I was thinking the same thing! What does all this have to do with handicapping software!


We got sidetracked talking about Lasky, aka, Mike Warren. Sorry.

[lawmaker1]

Pandy,are you going to have a software program based on your "Speed and Class Handicapping" book?

[pandy]

Pandy,are you going to have a software program based on your "Speed and Class Handicapping" book?


Thanks for your interest. No, because the information for the methodology in that book is already in the Bris Race Summary.

I do have a software program that comes with my new book, Power Pace Handicapping, works with bris single files, plus other similar files.

It's early and I have a lot of research to do, but I may have a speed based software program available for my next book, preliminarily titled, "Time."

[NorCalGreg]

Thanks for your interest. No, because the information for the methodology in that book is already in the Bris Race Summary.

I do have a software program that comes with my new book, Power Pace Handicapping, works with bris single files, plus other similar files.

It's early and I have a lot of research to do, but I may have a speed based software program available for my next book, preliminarily titled, "Time."

I'd definitely be interested in that--just now getting into your latest--looks good

[thaskalos]

I'd definitely be interested in that--just now getting into your latest--looks good
"Professional courtesy"... :ThmbUp:

[cardinalsfan]

RPM has been on a tear in taking other people's systems and then programming and selling them as their own. I recognized one such system on their website as actually being a system called "The Right Stuff". I can tell by the numbers in abbreviations used. I have used this system for over twenty years (with many if my own modifications) and can see from their advertising screen shots that it us NOT PROGRAMMED CORRECTLY! I actually handicaped and played several of the races shown on their website and their numbers are just plain wrong.

Maybe you actually have agreements with the original authors and the stories told are to to sell the system, so to speak. That's between you and the original authors. But the reason nobody buys your stuff is because the programming is ABSOULUTELY HORENDOUS. No offense to Mr. Z, but c'mon... GET IT RIGHT! How about a little quality control???? Maybe actually compare you the results of your work to the original system?????????

The last system I purchased RPM was 10 years ago. I stopped buying because the workout RPM provided did not match the actual results the system - not even remotely. TOTALLY MADE UP! Some of us have back issues of the Daily Racing Form, ya know?

RPM started out as a legitimate business with some legitimately good material way back in the day. Frankly, they're becoming the modern-day Mike Warren and Norris Stauss (you young folk, look it up).I'm calling RPM and Dave Powers out because they have lost all respect for serious AND casual horseplayers. Certainly they can do better!!!!!!!

[thaskalos]

RPM has been on a tear in taking other people's systems and then programming and selling them as their own. I recognized one such system on their website as actually being a system called "The Right Stuff". I can tell by the numbers in abbreviations used. I have used this system for over twenty years (with many if my own modifications) and can see from their advertising screen shots that it us NOT PROGRAMMED CORRECTLY! I actually handicaped and played several of the races shown on their website and their numbers are just plain wrong.

Maybe you actually have agreements with the original authors and the stories told are to to sell the system, so to speak. That's between you and the original authors. But the reason nobody buys your stuff is because the programming is ABSOULUTELY HORENDOUS. No offense to Mr. Z, but c'mon... GET IT RIGHT! How about a little quality control???? Maybe actually compare you the results of your work to the original system?????????

The last system I purchased RPM was 10 years ago. I stopped buying because the workout RPM provided did not match the actual results the system - not even remotely. TOTALLY MADE UP! Some of us have back issues of the Daily Racing Form, ya know?

RPM started out as a legitimate business with some legitimately good material way back in the day. Frankly, they're becoming the modern-day Mike Warren and Norris Stauss (you young folk, look it up).I'm calling RPM and Dave Powers out because they have lost all respect for serious AND casual horseplayers. Certainly they can do better!!!!!!!

Yes, I agree. RPM was a "legitimate business" back in the day. I remember being intrigued by a system that I saw advertised in their catalog many years ago.They supposedly had "bought the rights" to the system from the gentleman who had invented it, and had used it with great success at about 25 tracks all across the country. And he had the documented proof to back up his "great success" assertions.

But those were the pre-simulcast days, and we only had access to our home tracks when placing our wagers. How was it possible that this system "inventor" was able to apply his system with real money at all those different tracks...while the rest of us only had a single track at our disposal? What would Mr. Dave Powers' fertile mind come up with...to lend credibility to this improbable story?

Why...the guy was a United Airlines PILOT...of course. And, as he flew his plane all across the country, he would spend his spare time at all those different racing locales, where he would practically clean up at the betting windows with this "wonder-system" of his...which I could now own for the paltry sum of $49.99

The only reason that shysters like Dave Powers are able to remain in business for so long is because, as the saying goes..."There is a sucker born every minute..."

[Nutz and Boltz]

RPM has been on a tear in taking other people's systems and then programming and selling them as their own. I recognized one such system on their website as actually being a system called "The Right Stuff". I can tell by the numbers in abbreviations used. I have used this system for over twenty years (with many if my own modifications) and can see from their advertising screen shots that it us NOT PROGRAMMED CORRECTLY! I actually handicaped and played several of the races shown on their website and their numbers are just plain wrong.

They even touted a "system" which was nothing more than using the BRIS Prime Power ratings !

[Longshot]

Anyone remember Dr. Donald Sullivan and his power ratings from the late 70s and early 80s? I used them for a few years and they actually produce a high percent of winners though most were in the $5 to $12 range.

I also miss the old Racing Star weekly. A few of the spot systems I still use came from the Racing Star weekly. Joe Conte had a weekly feature in it.

[zerosky]

Great thread..

I am reminded of an old story from back in the day before WWII. An enterprising rogue made a living hawking roulette systems, his speciality was to convince wealthy widows that he had an unbeatable system but alas it was only 'lack of funds' that prevented him from winning vast amounts of money. He once convinced one very wealthy lady to provide the 'Investment' for a trip to Monte Carlo, guaranteed to double or even triple the initial investment. After two weeks with no word from the man she had entrusted her money to she sent a telegram to the hotel where he was saying inquiring for some news. The following day she received a reply that simply said 'System doing well. Send more money'

[thaskalos]

Great thread..

I am reminded of an old story from back in the day before WWII. An enterprising rogue made a living hawking roulette systems, his speciality was to convince wealthy widows that he had an unbeatable system but alas it was only 'lack of funds' that prevented him from winning vast amounts of money. He once convinced one very wealthy lady to provide the 'Investment' for a trip to Monte Carlo, guaranteed to double or even triple the initial investment. After two weeks with no word from the man she had entrusted her money to she sent a telegram to the hotel where he was saying inquiring for some news. The following day she received a reply that simply said 'System doing well. Send more money'

At least the Monte Carlo crook had the decency to only go after wealthy widows. The handicapping system-peddlers would take the lunch-money from an orphan.

[mikeb]

[QUOTE=Longshot;2186740]Anyone remember Dr. Donald Sullivan and his power ratings from the late 70s and early 80s? I used them for a few years and they actually produce a high percent of winners though most were in the $5 to $12 range.
His parallel charts were 2nd to none!
Often wondered what became of the DR.?
MB

[Pensacola Pete]

They had eighth-page ads in papers in the mid 1970's, disguised as articles by "Don Fletcher." "Thoroughbred Racing - Predicting the Outcome." by Donald Sullivan and Hank Adams. "Donald Sullivan" was author of many things. The "book" was about 55 8x11 Xeroxed pages held together by a plastic snap-on.

Here is a copy of the ad from the Chicago Tribune archives.