How Long is the Ideal Race Day?

[andtheyreoff]

If you can, please respond. I'm curious to see what people think.

[PoloUK6108]

If you can, please respond. I'm curious to see what people think.

10..11 on a Saturday. Arlington's annoying only running 8, Monmouths annoying always running 12 haha.

[cj]

I'd say it is more a time issue than the number of races. Most major sports are in the three hour window or less. Racing could do well to emulate this while keeping the number of races around 9.


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I don't think dragging out post times helps handle. Most people bet in the last few minutes whether they have to 30 minutes to wait or 20. There is no reason tracks can't run a race every 23 minutes as listed above.

[Kash$]

I'd say it is more a time issue than the number of races. Most major sports are in the three hour window or less. Racing could do well to emulate this while keeping the number of races around 9.


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1:23
1:46
2:09
2:32
2:55
3:18
3:41
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I don't think dragging out post times helps handle. Most people bet in the last few minutes whether they have to 30 minutes to wait or 20. There is no reason tracks can't run a race every 23 minutes as listed above.

CJ are you including Saratoga? They run A race every 35 minutes which is absurd.
Derby Day every 45 minutes

[cj]

CJ are you including Saratoga? They run A race every 35 minutes which is absurd.
Derby Day every 45 minutes

I can see extending the time some on special days with huge crowds where getting a bet in can actually be an issue. But still, those are excessive IMO.

[Stillriledup]

The late Dick Van Patten might say eight is NOT enough. You need at least 9 races.

[thaskalos]

I say, run as many races as you can while keeping at least 8 horses in every race. If only 56 horses are available on a particular day...then run only 7 races. :)

[davew]

I was hoping for a number of hours question.

Many dog tracks can run 15 races in 3.5 hours.

Why so long between horse races?

[raybo]

I would think that the number of races carded should be tied to the number of horses available, and the various conditions that need to be carded for that population of horses, with an eye on achieving a decent average field size. Time should have little to do with it other than allotting enough time for jockeys, trainers, assistants, etc., that had mounts in the previous race to get ready for the next one, get the horses to the paddock, get them saddled and prepped, get their paddock walk in for bettors to view, get on the track and get the horses' warm-ups done, and get loaded in the gate. All that takes a certain amount of time.

[Kash$]

Why is post still at 100pm most people are working.Racing stuck in a time machine

[WP1981]

I am probably in the minority here, but I prefer the 7 race UK and IRE cards. Not a lot to get overwhelmed with and I can usually find big fields in at least 6 of the legs. I loved the opening Meadowlands/Monmouth card of 6 races.

Different strokes.

[ronsmac]

I know people love Saratoga, but their days are brutally long. I want a 9 or 10 race card with 27 minutes between races. I'm a dinosaur , so 11 and 12 race cards become a lot of work for me, and 34 minutes between races makes me want to jump off a bridge. Oaklawn probably is the best fit for me. I love 4 day weeks, alot of 9 race cards, and usually a little less than 30 min between races.

[Track Phantom]

I can tell you that the time between races is the reason most casual fans don't go to the races more.

I was there with family last year for a three-day stretch. On the first day, everyone was jovial, laughing, having fun, up until the last couple of races where you could see people were starting to drag. There just wasn't enough stimulation between races and, not unexpectedly, they were bored.

By the third day, they wanted to slit their wrists by the 4th race.

Got to find a way to keep the entire day at a 3 hour maximum if you want the casual fan to attend more.

[Stillriledup]

I can tell you that the time between races is the reason most casual fans don't go to the races more.

I was there with family last year for a three-day stretch. On the first day, everyone was jovial, laughing, having fun, up until the last couple of races where you could see people were starting to drag. There just wasn't enough stimulation between races and, not unexpectedly, they were bored.

By the third day, they wanted to slit their wrists by the 4th race.

Got to find a way to keep the entire day at a 3 hour maximum if you want the casual fan to attend more.

The long delay is for the horsemen, nobody has to rush, owners can hang in the paddock taking pics with the jockey etc they don't care if the bettors are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, it's all about the participants and making sure they're as comfortable as possible.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why is post still at 100pm most people are working.Racing stuck in a time machine

Most harness racing is at night, and they're in much worse shape than t'bred racing from a handle standpt.

[thaskalos]

Most harness racing is at night, and they're in much worse shape than t'bred racing from a handle standpt.
Yeah...but the harness game is fixed, no?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yeah...but the harness game is fixed, no?

The majority of races are legit, imo. Drivers are very aggressive at the Meadowlands. Racing is in secular decline, day and night racing.

[clocker7]

I can tell you that the time between races is the reason most casual fans don't go to the races more.

I was there with family last year for a three-day stretch. On the first day, everyone was jovial, laughing, having fun, up until the last couple of races where you could see people were starting to drag. There just wasn't enough stimulation between races and, not unexpectedly, they were bored.

By the third day, they wanted to slit their wrists by the 4th race.

Got to find a way to keep the entire day at a 3 hour maximum if you want the casual fan to attend more.
I could say the same thing for me and my compatriots by the fourth inning of the third day of a series at our regional ML baseball park. Never again.

[rastajenk]

Why is post still at 100pm most people are working.Racing stuck in a time machine
Yes, most people are working, but most racing fans are retired. :p

[Track Phantom]

I could say the same thing for me and my compatriots by the fourth inning of the third day of a series at our regional ML baseball park. Never again.

I agree. In 1950, Major League Baseball and Horse Racing were usually on the front page of the Sports Section. While MLB is still popular, it has slid down the list over the years.

Let's face it...in the age of immediacy (smart phones, google, slot machines, etc), people have a lower tolerance for things that meander.

But, the people in charge or racing haven't caught on to this. They must believe that people love 1 minute and 12 seconds of excitement and 27 minutes of crickets.

[Kash$]

I could say the same thing for me and my compatriots by the fourth inning of the third day of a series at our regional ML baseball park. Never again.


Yes, most people are working, but most racing fans are retired.

Thats the problem...

How about a 330 post?

[HuggingTheRail]

I'd say it is more a time issue than the number of races. Most major sports are in the three hour window or less. Racing could do well to emulate this while keeping the number of races around 9.


1:00
1:23
1:46
2:09
2:32
2:55
3:18
3:41
4:04

I don't think dragging out post times helps handle. Most people bet in the last few minutes whether they have to 30 minutes to wait or 20. There is no reason tracks can't run a race every 23 minutes as listed above.

Yes please!!

[Tom]

I could say the same thing for me and my compatriots by the fourth inning of the third day of a series at our regional ML baseball park. Never again.

I don't turn on a football game until the fourth quarter or so.
God, how can you watch for 4, 4-1/ hours?

[burnsy]

I like 9 races but shorten the time between races. Horse racing has to look at and look like the world we live in. Baseball games were taking too long and they are doing everything to shorten the time of a game. People are too busy and the younger people don't have the attention span. Everyone used to love baseball too, but its kind of declining a little and like racing...its mostly for older people when its on TV. Even at Saratoga, by the time the feature race is going off, the place has thinned out noticeably unless its the biggest days. Like it or not we live in a "now" world. Run a race every 20 minutes or so and end by 4 pm.....or start at 7pm and end at 11pm for nights. I swear, thoroughbred racing is the only game that doesn't know how to "time" its events like humans in this day and age. Instead of all these tracks, less tracks, compacted cards, bigger fields and some better night racing.....like every other successful sport does it. They have figured out that the more action per minute and nights, the more people actually give a crap. That's how we live now. I can't understand why they don't takes pages from other sports when it works. Oh yeah, nobody actually manages it and it takes forever and a day for something to actually happen. CJ is right and the handle may even go up, I know it will on track.

[LottaKash]

I like 9 races but shorten the time between races. Horse racing has to look at and look like the world we live in.

Me too, I voted 9-races, and a shorter time in between, if asked...

Some tracks, especially Harness have 12-15 races, and that is tedious for me....Harness Tracks move their programs along much quicker than their T-bred brothers, but still imo, that amount of races is still way too much...

9-races, with a short jump, would allow us to have some time to spend for other things and maybe more valuable things, at that...

[Zaf]

10 races , 23 minutes between post times , fields of 8 starters or more :)

Z

[MonmouthParkJoe]

Longer the better for me. When going to live races I like to make a day of it. It is so much more for me then the races. I like getting there early and taking it all in.

[Zaf]

Longer the better for me. When going to live races I like to make a day of it. It is so much more for me then the races. I like getting there early and taking it all in.

Ditto :ThmbUp: :jump:

[appistappis]

another reason to love the mountain.

[burnsy]

Longer the better for me. When going to live races I like to make a day of it. It is so much more for me then the races. I like getting there early and taking it all in.

I hear you guys and I feel it too. I wrote about the entire meet here at Saratoga. I'm there until 8 pm on nice days when the card is long. I'll even stay late for a beer to let the remaining crowd leave. But I wrote what I said about this for the health and popularity of this game. Not for myself. I see the number of people that walk out after the 5th or 6th race and one of the objections to horse racing is the idle time between races and the length of the program. Yeah, we love it, but most people can't sit that long or feel they have that much spare time and horse racing really needs to get back on the map. The only way that happens is an increase in popularity. Sure, it would be great if everyone is into the track like we are....but in reality.......they are not....... The tracks have to cater towards the "fence sitters" not the die hard.

[MonmouthParkJoe]

When I am at Saratoga I always sit in the backyard area despite having friends and open invites so sit on the backstretch. I just really enjoy the vibe in the backyard. I do agree, 35 minutes between races is a long time but I also think Saratoga is a bit of an anomaly. Given the long lines for everything, by the time you wait in line to bet, wait in line for the bathroom, and get back to your area you have like 10 mtp. Most tracks aren't as crowded. I also see most people in the backyard watch the TV's versus running up to watch the race by the rail.

If you don't want to sit idle for that long you always have simulcast races that are going off every few minutes. I generally focus on two tracks a day. So, if they want more action, there is more to be had.

[davew]

The long delay is for the horsemen, nobody has to rush, owners can hang in the paddock taking pics with the jockey etc they don't care if the bettors are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, it's all about the participants and making sure they're as comfortable as possible.


start all that crap quicker, maybe before the previous race has even ran - those horses are on the track warming up

[NJ Stinks]

I am probably in the minority here, but I prefer the 7 race UK and IRE cards. Not a lot to get overwhelmed with and I can usually find big fields in at least 6 of the legs. I loved the opening Meadowlands/Monmouth card of 6 races.

Different strokes.

I'm with you, WP. When I went to Royal Ascot on the day Frankel won the Queen Anne's in 2012, they ran only 6 races. It's true that there was 35 minutes between races but the card was still run in just less than 3 hours. That duration was just enough to make fans want to come for more the next day. And it assured that the non-punters in attendance could enjoy the people and horse views without getting bored out of their minds.

Also went a trotter track one afternoon in Paris. 8 race card run in about 3 hours. Perfect.

How come they know what most people want and we don't? Is it because they have been around longer and have more experience promoting horseracing? Or is that they understand that less is more and we don't?

[Kash$]

How come they know what most people want and we don't? Is it because they have been around longer and have more experience promoting horseracing? Or is that they understand that less is more and we don't?

They Care

[rastajenk]

What is with this "they know more and care more than we do" crap? Look at the poll results - they're all over the place, so clearly there's no more of an idealized standard in this discussion than in many other areas of disagreement within the HorsePlayers Monolith.

Belterra runs seven in three hours, but I don't see anybody holding them up as a paragon of progressive racetrack management. :eek:

[Robert Goren]

Most harness racing is at night, and they're in much worse shape than t'bred racing from a handle standpt.Track that run at night generally do not much handle. Us old codgers don't like to drive after dark.

[JohnGalt1]

I didn't vote but 8 is my minimum number of betting interests for me to play a trifecta or superfecta.

[titans1127]

I've been going to Belmont and Aqueduct for the last 20 years so 9 races has always felt the norm for me on the thoroughbred side, 10 on Saturdays. On the harness side I'm used to 12 or 13 races. With how quickly harness races go off you need that many to make the trip to the track worth the drive

[FrankieFigs]

I'm cool with 10 races per day, 25 minutes in between. 3 hours 45 minutes.

[thespaah]

If you can, please respond. I'm curious to see what people think.
5 hours.....
Ideally, if a 9 or 10 race card can be completed in 5 hours, that's cool....

[thespaah]

I'd say it is more a time issue than the number of races. Most major sports are in the three hour window or less. Racing could do well to emulate this while keeping the number of races around 9.


1:00
1:23
1:46
2:09
2:32
2:55
3:18
3:41
4:04

I don't think dragging out post times helps handle. Most people bet in the last few minutes whether they have to 30 minutes to wait or 20. There is no reason tracks can't run a race every 23 minutes as listed above.
Ok....Looks completely logical....
Now, how do we get around the constant carping regarding how "these tracks are running on top of each other"...
Seems to me these complainers are makeing complaints if say Belmont has a race go off at 2:14 and Keeneland has one go at 2:21, these two tracks are "running on top of each other".....
I think shorter times between races would perhaps bring in younger less patient people into the game.

[thespaah]

I was hoping for a number of hours question.

Many dog tracks can run 15 races in 3.5 hours.

Why so long between horse races?
The typical dog track handles about $10,000 on a 15 race card.
The typical Thoroughbred card can handle $5 to $15 million depending on the circuit.

[thespaah]

Yes, most people are working, but most racing fans are retired.

Thats the problem...

How about a 330 post?
Then there is the issue of every track north of the 30th parallel having to shut down once daylight savings time ends because most northern latitudes see sunset before 5 pm...
Or, these places would have to add lights( NYRA, Mth, etc) at considerable expense.

[castaway01]

It's certainly true that live attendance on weekdays is never going to be good in 2015 at your average track as most young people are working and can bet other ways if they want to. On the other hand, night racing has never been very successful either from an attendance or handle standpoint. So, I don't have an answer to that. The ship on live attendance may have sailed at all but the half-dozen tracks that draw well now.

As far as the question at hand, I'd say 9 or 10 races, starting at 1pm, 27-28 minutes in between. Most people are betting off track and on more than one track, so rushing it to 20 minutes between races or delaying it to 35 minutes between races both aren't necessary.

The one glaring issue is the overlap in track post times, which does happen at times. I assume most circuits view moving their post times as accommodating their competitors by allowing focus to shift to those tracks. I do think on big race weekends, tracks should try to work together on post time coordination, but other than that I don't think it's a major issue.

[davew]

The typical dog track handles about $10,000 on a 15 race card.
The typical Thoroughbred card can handle $5 to $15 million depending on the circuit.


There was a time when all of that handle was derived from ontrack ticket sales - not so any more. I remember having to go to a window for combination tickets (WPS) and another for bets $50 and more, and another for exactas ...

I suspect there are now many tracks that have more than 80% of their handle coming from offsite - ADWs, other tracks, and offsite betting locations.

[sharkie187]

I don't mind the long race days, but why spread out or change the post times? When I was stationed in England, if the race was slated for a 3:30 post time, thats when the horses are loading or are about to jump. Stewarts Inquiry (or Enquiry in the UK) took 25 mins, doesn't matter, the runners are already heading down to the gate for the next race.
But the atomsphere is completely different at Santa Anita/Del Mar then Wolverhampton, Newmarket, or Ascot. Its very much a social gathering over there then here in the US.