DRF Formulator 4.0 customer service BLOWS

[Suffolk OTB]

DRF Formulator 4.0 customer service is terrible. They have a phone number for questions, and I get someone who says they can not answer any Formulator 4 questions---only the NY office can answer the questions!!!! And the NY office doesn't have a phone number--only e-mail!!! Terrible terrible terrible customer service. Took three phone calls and two unanswered e-mails until someone admitted that there is a problem with today's Delawre card.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Suffolk OTB
DRF Formulator 4.0 customer service is terrible. They have a phone number for questions, and I get someone who says they can not answer any Formulator 4 questions---only the NY office can answer the questions!!!! And the NY office doesn't have a phone number--only e-mail!!! Terrible terrible terrible customer service. Took three phone calls and two unanswered e-mails until someone admitted that there is a problem with today's Delawre card.

re-engineering.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Next time you call ask them when the Belmont Stakes Beyers figures are coming out. Thanks.

[Tom]

Death, taxes, and CRF Customer sevice.
What is the commn thread here?
hehehe.
Been there, been that.:mad:

[Marc At DRF]

Oh what the heck, I'll give it a shot.

We've been all over our outsourced customer service this year and they're much improved. That said, they screwed up in this way-- when Suffolk OTB called, they should have just immediately transferred him to NY.

Previously, DRF didn't operate this way but I'm glad we do now.

Suffolk OTB, best thing to do is contact formulatorhelp@drf.com, and the responses are usually quick. That said, if it's later at night, it may take until the morning to get a situation resolved.

I actively monitor our customer service as it is related to web-based products, and I can tell you that we're doing a significantly better job, in and out of house, than we used to, and we'll continue to endeavor to improve it, of course. For the first month+ of F4's release, we had 3 guys in-house manning phones 6 days a week until 11pm. It was a busy time but it's not merited now that most people have worked through whatever nuances needed to be worked through. But there's still a unique e-mail address dedicated to F4, and still 2 guys in-house ready to help out when need be, 9am to 6pm EST, 6 days a week.

There's always going to be a few people who are never, ever happy with DRF no matter how much we have improved. The difference between even a year ago and now, it's significant, but then again I work there, so hearing it from me, I'm sure some of you will take it with a grain of salt.

[Suffolk OTB]

Mark--I bought a Trail Plan and was trying to download a Delaware card--Formulator 4.0. I called the DRF customer service number 4 TIMES, spole to four different people and was told there was a problem with my account, there was a problem with the file, there was a problem with NY, Trial plan didn;t cover 4.0, etc. I was instructed to send an e-mail, and I did TWICE, which both went unanswered. Finally, I asked for and spoke to a supervisor (Carmine) who after 15 minutes still couldn't tell me what the problem was. He e-mailed me the Delaware file. Got it in time for the 3rd race. My voyage started at 10AM EST.

I asked Carmine on the phone and in another e-mail for some additional racecards for my experiences. Received nothing. So much for trying to retain a customer. It's a shame because the product itself is wonderful. The customer service will send me back to BRIS.

[Suffolk OTB]

DRF just called and they are giving me 10 free 4.0 racecards for my troubles. Kudos for making the customer happy.

[Marc At DRF]

Suffolk OTB,

The way it was described to me was that the guy who oversees things didn't realize you had had problems on the phone previously. FWIW. When people have these sort of problems, we take care of them.

It's both the right thing to do and, on top of that, it makes absolutely zero business sense for us not to.

[Suffolk OTB]

And you've taken care of them..many thanks!!

[highnote]

I have to admit, I would not want to be in DRF's shoes. Trying to do customer service for computer software has to be the worst. I know. I sell some stuff and my website and every single sale means multiple calls from my clients.

Yes, I could do a better job of making it simpler to install and a better manual. But at some point, the improvements to the manual and install don't make a big difference -- diminishing marginal returns.

I can only imagine the headaches DRF would have if they tried to do the customer support themselves. I'm not surprised they farmed it out. Let someone else have the headaches.

Good luck to all three parties -- Customer, DRF and subcontractor. All I can say to the customer is be persistent. DRF and subcontractor are doing their best, but you have to keep after them. Squeaky wheel...

[Marc At DRF]

"I can only imagine the headaches DRF would have if they tried to do the customer support themselves. I'm not surprised they farmed it out. Let someone else have the headaches."

It makes sense to farm out the basic stuff, for an operation of our size, but for the higher-end stuff, we still have to do it in house, and do it well. We're doing it much better than we used to, which is why a story like Suffolk OTB's is pretty unusual and frustrating these days, for me.

It's interesting, I spent 3 days at our customer service center (the outsourced one) right before Formulator's launch, to train them. I listened in on some calls and I was struck by how much these calls were dominated by people who were utterly clueless on their computers. Meaning, they had no idea how to open up a PDF. You start throwing in F4 calls, and it's quite a gearshift. It's one of the reasons we have a team dedicated to F4 inhouse.

[highnote]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
It's interesting, I spent 3 days at our customer service center (the outsourced one) right before Formulator's launch, to train them. I listened in on some calls and I was struck by how much these calls were dominated by people who were utterly clueless on their computers. Meaning, they had no idea how to open up a PDF. You start throwing in F4 calls, and it's quite a gearshift. It's one of the reasons we have a team dedicated to F4 inhouse.

Exactly. I have customers who don't know how to create a directory or cut and paste from one folder to another. They are insulted when I suggest (in a friendly tone) that they buy a book on Windows or take a basic computer course so they can learn basic Windows functions.

I read one post on this board where someone asked another poster what browser they used. The guy replied back, "What's a browser?"

Now, try to explain how to use software to someone who doesn't know what a browser is.

I sympathize with your customer service dept.

[PaceAdvantage]

This is all well and true, but I am utterly amazed that you guys don't EXPECT this kind of lack of knowledge!!!

How can you not plan for the person who knows NOTHING about anything?? You have to know there are a LOT of people out there who have a computer and only know how to TURN IT ON, and CLICK ON THE ICON for the program they want to run!!

You can't assume anything when you are in the customer service business! If you do, you run the risk of insulting the very people you expect to become loyal customers.

Yes, people should take some responsibility and LEARN how to use the machines that are at their disposal, but you CAN'T EXPECT them to do this.

[highnote]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
This is all well and true, but I am utterly amazed that you guys don't EXPECT this kind of lack of knowledge!!!


PA,
I think that either you're looking for something in these messages that isn't there or I didn't communicate clearly enough. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your comment.

Which one of us said that we don't expect this kind of lack of knowledge?

Just because I can relate to Marc's comments about customers lacking basic computer skills does not mean that I don't expect it. I've been selling custom software for at least 10 years. So I know that I will encounter computer novices from time to time.

I even suggested in one of my posts that the customer needs to keep after the DRF and their subcontractors to make sure they get the help they want.

I usually agree with you, but not on this issue.

Respectfully,
John

[Marc At DRF]

PA,

Our outsourced customer service division fully expects people to have absolutely no clue as to what they're doing, because that's the majority of calls they receive, and have been receiving, for years. The slim minority are customers with more sophisticated issues, and its my impression that it's hard to get outsourced help up to speed for the "fancier" issues when they're used to dealing with the simpler ones. Which is why we need to be handling that sort of stuff in-house.

Not exactly sure what your complaint is on this...

[kenwoodallpromos]

You keep mentionong "outsourcing". Persona;;y I do not care how far "out" you are sourcing, Becauise my MSN and HP calls go to India.
The big guys have an extensive book for troubleshooting that acts like a big flow chart so anyone who can read English can help customers, regardless of how thick the accent is.
Perhaps you guy can try something like that so your "outsourcers" are not "out" to lunch. LOL.

[Marc At DRF]

Your idealization of MSN and HP customer service is duly noted.

[kenwoodallpromos]

My point was, HP and MSN people do not try to figure anything out. They just read stuff out of a book.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
Your idealization of MSN and HP customer service is duly noted.

spent 20 minutes on the line with HP support in India today. I was working for a client. Dead HP Jetdirect card.......after going through the book (everything I had already done) this guy lets me talk him into sending us a new card. Over all it went pretty well......but it was definite............this guy was using a flow chart. I forgot to mention the card was out of warranty......but only two weeks out.

[Tom]

As a quality professional, I just cannot believe the cavalier attitude many so-called professional businesses take with customer service.
I guess there are different levels of caring about your customers.
But I have fired many, people who have put out much more efforts than I have read about on this thread.
The customer is Job1, Job2 and Job3.

[highnote]

Glad I'm self-employed. Sounds like I'd be out of a job :)

[Tom]

Originally posted by swetyejohn
Glad I'm self-employed. Sounds like I'd be out of a job :)

LOL! I didn't mean you.
I meant the examples - drf guys andbook thumbers in India.

[highnote]

WHEW! I take things too personally.

No one has ever asked for a refund of the money they paid me for my software. Thought maybe my customer service was slipping and I was getting crotchety in my old age.

[Bruddah]

after having multiple problems and trying to get answers from DRF. They consider the customer a problem and informing them a nuisance. Plain and simple. They sell information which requires their software to manipulate. After the sale, they don't want to hear from you. (just like insurance co's.) Why, heaven knows, all of their customers should be so far along in using computers they can resolve the problem themselves. If the customer is a very techie sort, with a problem, then they must be trying to be nuisance.

The answer. Yeah!! Let's out source this problem to a company, with people, who have no clue. Then we can say it wasn't us.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the problem with most companies.

[BIG RED]

Agreed

[highnote]

Originally posted by Bruddah
The answer. Yeah!! Let's out source this problem to a company, with people, who have no clue. Then we can say it wasn't us.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the problem with most companies.

Here are some thoughts... hopefully, they're not too far off the mark. I'm only guessing at some of this stuff.

I don't use F4 but my guess is that if DRF had to do customer support in-house for the product then there wouldn't be an F4. It's probably cost-prohibitive to do in-house customer support. They'd have to charge so much for the product that very few would buy it. So companies farm it out to specialists who can provide support for several clients and several products and achieve an economy of scale.

Also, I would guess that either DRF gets so many calls for support that it is too expensive to hire and train a staff, or they get so few calls that it doesn't make sense to have a staff sitting around doing very little.

In the good old days (like 1920 or something) Ford Motor Company owned the land that contained iron ore to produce steel to build the cars. They owned the marketing departments and did their own advertising and promotion. Owned the dealerships, etc. The days of vertical integration are over. Now they're just an assembly plant (I'm simplifying a bit). I suppose they have some engineers, but they rely on a lot of parts that are subcontracted and designed by engineers at other companies.

I wonder if DRF has programmers on staff who develop F4 or if they rely on contracted programmers? Do they even own printing presses to produce their paper or do they farm that out, too?

[kenwoodallpromos]

A lot of the info you see in the paper is farmed out also.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I understand some of DRF's "farmers" they farm out information gathering to are:
Equibase;
Track and training center clockers;
Beyer;
Handicappers;
Some journalissts;
Maybe pars makers.

[Tom]

Just reading about all the problems everyone seemed to be having with F4 when it came out turned me off. I am already using a beta-operating system that is not all that stable (XP, LOL) so why would I want to stick some proven problem program on it and risk screwing ot all up?
Then, after all the hype, you find out the files have a relatively short "shelf-life!"
Not that I don't agree with the reasoning behind it, but the almost total secracy of it.......hhmmmmmm.


My philosophy is if you have to defend your customer service, you don't have any.

[Jeff P]

I wonder if DRF has programmers on staff who develop F4 or if they rely on contracted programmers?

My guess is they rely on contracted programmers. Lots of companies do this. As a contract programmer, I've been hired out on a per project basis by lots of big companies: American Express, Trammell Crowe, ST Microelectronics, and Verizon Wireless, just to name a few. In each case, I know going in that roughly (time wise) as soon as I get a piece of working software into their hands, that contract is over and I'm (hopefully) on to the next one. The problem arises sometimes when they THINK they have working software in their hands before they actually do. It's easy for inexperienced project managers to cut the programmer loose too soon. Worse, sometimes the project manager is someone who is contracted out for one specific project only and gets cut by upper management too early. When that happens the company that now owns the project but outsourced it really doesn't understand how the software works and has little hope of doing in house support themselves. My guess is that something similar happened at DRF with Formulator 4.0. After all, management's goal nowadays is to create software at bare bones cost isn't it?

[highnote]

Originally posted by Jeff P
[B]I I keep hearing about all those terrorists who manage to sneak into the country and live undetected among us for years. But if I'm two days late returning a movie to Blockbuster- those people are all over me. I say enough is enough. Let's put Blockbuster in charge of immigration.

Just a remark about your tag line...

If we put Blockbuster in charge of immigration wouldn't that be outsourcing? :)

My sister-in-law works for the state gov't in Columbus, OH. They are talking about outsourcing her department's jobs to Mexico. She has worked in that dept for almost 20 years. She was hoping to retire from that job with a pension.

Personally, I'd rather pay higher taxes than have state jobs outsourced to a foreign country.

We all know that gov't offices are not the most efficient. But can an office in a foreign country, that probably has some people answering phones who can't speak English as well as the people they replaced in the US, do as good a job as the people in the US office?

[Jeff P]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Blockbuster outsources and the guy who calls when I'm late returning a movie is actually calling me from a call center somewhere in Thailand...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
I listened in on some calls and I was struck by how much these calls were dominated by people who were utterly clueless on their computers.

Was I unclear in my prior reply? I was responding to this quote made by Marc. I thought my reply was pretty self explanatory. It wasn't a complaint. I don't use DRF online products, or Formulator, so I have nothing to complain about.

The only ambiguity that might exist in my reply is if I completely misread what you meant to convey in the above quote. I read that quote to mean that your were surprised (your term, "struck") how the calls were dominated by clueless people.

If you read my reply with the understanding that I interpreted your above quote as I have just described, then there really isn't much more to add.....it was simply a comment in passing, nothing more and nothing less.

[vespa7]

thanks for coming in marc and giving us some background i tried the formulater before and found your service to be good over the phone.

[Marc At DRF]

To PA--

I'm not in our customer service division, which was kind of my point-- I learned something by visiting our outsourced division that I wouldn't have really known previously. Those who ARE in our customer service division DO expect many customers to be clueless on the computer because they DO have that sort of history with out customers. My main reason for bringing it up in this thread was to point out to the more sophisticated players who read this board that they are in the distinct minority, when the call this outsourced division of DRF.

Accordingly, we DO have guys in-house (this is expensive but worth it) to handle F4 questions as well as other "high-end" customer queries.

There's a lot of speculation in this thread that is inaccurate, and also there's a pretty serious disconnect between notorious DRF-hater Tom's "proven problem program" and the reality of F4. Like any other good piece of software, it was tested for months in advance on a variety of operating systems but it was of buggy in the way it affected about 3 to 5% of all machines at launch. This sucked, we fixed it, and the main remaining issues seem to be printing functionalities on less than 1% of all machines. That said, if you were one of those original 3-5%, you were rightly totally p*ssed off. This had the effect of alienating some potential users, or, in the case of DRF-hater Tom, it gleefully validated his perspective that anything DRF gets anywhere near must be sheer evil, sheer stupidity, or a combination thereof.

Meanwhile, last week we went live with F4 as a paying product-- meaning that the "trial period" in which we were not charging anything extra for the F4 PPs as compared to the "basic" PPs is now over. If it was truly a "problem" product, the proof would be in the pudding-- lackluster sales...

Instead, it's been an overwhelmingly positive response. Premium PPs, at 40-50% more per racecard for most of our subscription plans, are selling well beyond anybody's expectations, with 25% of our customers paying the premium pricing. I've racked my brain, and I can't find a reason they would do this unless it was a product that they felt was advantageous to them:

A product that they had experienced during the trial period and felt was well worth the cost.

DRF is 100% responsible for its customer service. I *know* it's way better than it used to be, but I also know the reality that it's a division that can never quite be perfect, because there literally is no such thing as a perfect customer service division. There's just too many intricate issues, and all we can try to do is address them and get better and better. We are. In the case of F4, like I said, the proof is in the pudding. If it was as bad as Tom or Bruddah would have it, I strongly suspect sales wouldn't be what they are.

As ever, if any of you ever have any problems I encourage you to e-mail me directly at mattenb@drf.com, and if it's Formulator-related, you should probably also e-mail formulatorhelp@drf.com.

[Tom]

I base my opinions on actual posts here and my own personal experience.
In my line of work, my custmers' recognize my customer service-I don' thave to defend it.
HAND:D