AP vs. Beholder

[PoloUK6108]

....Proceed

[classhandicapper]

Setting aside the trip today and then, I think a relevant question would be can she duplicate that performance?

[Rex Phinney]

Setting aside the trip today and then, I think a relevant question would be can she duplicate that performance?

Replicate the performance?

She is 5, she has won Breders Cup races, she has won 5 in a row and she is better than ever.

What she beat today was about 10 times better than the field AP beat in New Jersey.

Question is going to be whether AP makes the BCC after he loses the Travers.

[andtheyreoff]

Replicate the performance?

She is 5, she has won Breders Cup races, she has won 5 in a row and she is better than ever.

What she beat today was about 10 times better than the field AP beat in New Jersey.

Question is going to be whether AP makes the BCC after he loses the Travers.

Who do you think can possibly beat AP in the Travers?

[RacingFan1992]

This is turning into a beautiful field: American Pharoah, Beholder, and Honor Code among others. I'm thinking all three deserve year end honors. I wish them all the luck. Go Honor Code. He is and will always be my favorite.

[Kash$]

Setting aside the trip today and then, I think a relevant question would be can she duplicate that performance?

Or duplicate that kind of trip

[NY BRED]

IT APPEARS THE STAGE IS SET FOR THE BREEDERS CUP WHICH
WILL MATCH AP AND BEHOLDER.

FUTURE PRICES ON BC TICKETS PROBABLY JUST JUMPED BY AT LEAST 200%

BEHOLDER, A 5 YEAR OLD MARE COULD HAVE EASILY BROKEN THE
TRACK RECORD CRUISING AGAINST THE BOYS .

MOMENT OF TRUTH SHOULD BE TODAY AFTER AP'S WORK,

IF BAFFERT ELECTS TO GO TO THE TRAVERS, AND WINS,
WE WILL WITNESS ONE HELL OF A RACE IN THE BREEDERS CUP.

IN THE EVENT AP LOSES THE TRAVERS, AND/OR ANOTHER RACE
PRIOR TO THE BC, THIS SHOWDOWN MIGHT NIGHT OCCUR.

BREEDING /SIRE FUTURES WILL UNDOUBTEDLY RULE THESE
DECISIONS.


LOTS OF MOVING PARTS TO THIS SCENARIO, COMMENTS?

[EMD4ME]

Or duplicate that kind of trip

That trip was ONE of a kind.

Sitting G spot 5 lengths back of a CRIPPLE and a totally outmatched spd ball, WHILE, not being stressed at all by the 4th runner/5th runner.

If she duplicates that trip, of course she can beat anyone.

Can that trip be duplicated in the BCC?

[PoloUK6108]

If she can come close to running that same race, AP will have a handful..Honor Code a distant 3rd/4th

[Kash$]

That trip was ONE of a kind.

Sitting G spot 5 lengths back of a CRIPPLE and a totally outmatched spd ball, WHILE, not being stressed at all by the 4th runner/5th runner.

If she duplicates that trip, of course she can beat anyone.

Can that trip be duplicated in the BCC?


The trip upgraded the performance,the pace fell apart they came back..Just my opinion
Taking nothing away from her.Borrego type of performance..

[Grits]

That trip was ONE of a kind.

Sitting G spot 5 lengths back of a CRIPPLE and a totally outmatched spd ball, WHILE, not being stressed at all by the 4th runner/5th runner.

If she duplicates that trip, of course she can beat anyone.

Can that trip be duplicated in the BCC?

The mare won by eight, and this is all you've got? Your writing is common. You're not in the men's toilet. Find a better choice of words next post...

[EMD4ME]

The mare won by eight, and this is all you've got? Your writing is common. You're not in the men's toilet. Find a better choice of words next post...

Sorry the truth HURTS Grits. I don't hate Beholder, I don't follow CA racing. We were discussing HER TRIP in this thread.

Cheez. Get over yourself. Attacking a man for speaking the truth.

[EMD4ME]

The mare won by eight, and this is all you've got? Your writing is common. You're not in the men's toilet. Find a better choice of words next post...

G SPOT....Translation. Garden Spot. Very popular trip noter's notation for the ultimate in PERFECT TRIPS.

[EMD4ME]

The trip upgraded the performance,the pace fell apart they came back..Just my opinion
Taking nothing away from her.Borrego type of performance..

She was AWESOME. I'll say that. Was begging my buddy to not bet the ready for retirement Bayern and to send it in on the filly. He didn't listen.

When I saw her trip, I told him she wins by 5. I was wrong! She won by more.

Hope she does go in the BCC, adds to the appeal of the race.

[EMD4ME]

The mare won by eight, and this is all you've got? Your writing is common. You're not in the men's toilet. Find a better choice of words next post...

If CRIPPLE offended you, MY APOLOGIES. Being that my mother is now a cripple due to no cause of her own, believe me, I understand how it feels to hear that word.

Maybe I should have used "washed up" for Bayern. If that's what offended you, you're right. My apologies.

[DeltaLover]

Beholder is more of a local champion rather than an all around super star who has proved that can win all over.

When she shipped to Belmont and Churchill Downs she lost both times.

She is not even close to American Pharoah and I doubt if she ever faces him. She will have enough trouble to beat her division in the BCC..

[DeltaLover]

As I am saying in another related thread, as of now at least, she is a local hero who failed to win whenever she travelled across the borders of her home state...

Her connections should know better and never try to match here against the best and much less against the best of them, who has a good chance to be proven the greatest horse in the American history.

[garyscpa]

As I am saying in another related thread, as of now at least, she is a local hero who failed to win whenever she travelled across the borders of her home state...

Her connections should know better and never try to match here against the best and much less against the best of them, who has a good chance to be proven the greatest horse in the American history.

And what will prove he's the greatest horse in American history?

[Grits]

If CRIPPLE offended you, MY APOLOGIES. Being that my mother is now a cripple due to no cause of her own, believe me, I understand how it feels to hear that word.

Maybe I should have used "washed up" for Bayern. If that's what offended you, you're right. My apologies.

Often, there's far more drama in your posts than there is in the horses or in their races. (G)arden includes only 5 more letters. Use them. This board isn't your trip note page. And please stop with the excuses when your language is called out. This gets tiresome, EMD. Deal with it.

[DeltaLover]

And what will prove he's the greatest horse in American history?

What is your take?

[garyscpa]

What is your take?

If he doesn't run past this year he can't prove it.

[DeltaLover]

If he doesn't run past this year he can't prove it.

I think I agree with you.. He can certainly enter the all time greats group be winning the BCC though..

[Grits]

Both American Pharoah and Beholder have now earned an equal TFUS figure of 131--the year's highest.

Zayat wants to run his horse. One can be sure, though, Coolmore would not be excited about the possibility of facing Beholder if she goes in the Classic. They'd rather retire AP long beforehand. And likely will rather than take the risk.

... Contemplating, even the remote thought of your multi million dollar Triple Crown investment being beaten by a mare isn't a good thing.

[classhandicapper]

I think I agree with you.. He can certainly enter the all time greats group be winning the BCC though..

If he wins the Travers, Awesome Again, and BC Classic it will be a legendary year of accomplishments. But I've already seen articles and commentary suggesting he hasn't run especially fast yet. A lot of prominent handicappers are very literal about speed figures and ability. I don't agree with that kind of thinking, but it is what it is.

IMO great horses use the other horses as prompters and often do just enough to take over into the stretch and win. They generally don't reveal all of what they have in the tank until a fast pace and tougher competition force them to. We saw an example of that yesterday in the Pacific Classic (and with horses like Zenyatta and others). Hopefully, when that test comes, he'll reveal he has those reserves. I expect him to.

[Grits]

If he wins the Travers, Awesome Again, and BC Classic it will be a legendary year of accomplishments. But I've already seen articles and commentary suggesting he hasn't run especially fast yet. A lot of prominent handicappers are very literal about speed figures and ability. I don't agree with that kind of thinking, but it is what it is.

IMO great horses use the other horses as prompters and often do just enough to take over into the stretch and win. They generally don't reveal all of what they have in the tank until a fast pace and tougher competition force them to. We saw an example of that yesterday in the Pacific Classic (and with horses like Zenyatta and others). Hopefully, when that test comes, he'll reveal he has those reserves. I expect him to.

Great observations. Great post.

[tucker6]

Her connections should know better and never try to match here against the best and much less against the best of them, who has a good chance to be proven the greatest horse in the American history.
Fyi, Secretariat is dead.

[castaway01]

Both American Pharoah and Beholder have now earned an equal TFUS figure of 131--the year's highest.

Zayat wants to run his horse. One can be sure, though, Coolmore would not be excited about the possibility of facing Beholder if she goes in the Classic. They'd rather retire AP long beforehand. And likely will rather than take the risk.

... Contemplating, even the remote thought of your multi million dollar Triple Crown investment being beaten by a mare isn't a good thing.

I don't agree with you. However good Beholder looked yesterday, I don't believe that AP's connections would be scared enough of any horse to retire out of fear. You even posted that they ran the same speed figure---why wouldn't they believe that Pharoah could run faster if asked?

Hopefully we'll all get to find out on the racetrack.

[biggestal99]

That trip was ONE of a kind.

Sitting G spot 5 lengths back of a CRIPPLE and a totally outmatched spd ball, WHILE, not being stressed at all by the 4th runner/5th runner.

If she duplicates that trip, of course she can beat anyone.

Can that trip be duplicated in the BCC?

Cripples can now do under 110 for 6f now i see, i have a different def of a cripple than you, i know bayern isn,t the horse he once was but a cripple. Speed duels usually dont end up well for those involved.

Beholder took full advantage.

Allan

[garyscpa]

I don't agree with you. However good Beholder looked yesterday, I don't believe that AP's connections would be scared enough of any horse to retire out of fear. You even posted that they ran the same speed figure---why wouldn't they believe that Pharoah could run faster if asked?

Hopefully we'll all get to find out on the racetrack.

It wasn't a speed figure.

[biggestal99]

Her connections should know better and never try to match here against the best and much less against the best of them, who has a good chance to be proven the greatest horse in the American history.

The greatest? Lol. Thats a bit of hyperbole. How many of the greats have you seen run?

Even on tape?

Allan

[Grits]

Castaway, not agreeing with me is not a problem. You're one of many, get in line. :lol: Hopefully we do find out on the racetrack. Still, I recall Baffert's comment.. one hiccup in a work, one indication he's not 100%, etc, he's retired. We're not going to embarrass the horse.

With AP, one doesn't retire because of fear. One retires because of fortune.

[olddaddy]

Zayat wants to run his horse. One can be sure, though, Coolmore would not be excited about the possibility of facing Beholder if she goes in the Classic. They'd rather retire AP long beforehand. And likely will rather than take the risk.

... Contemplating, even the remote thought of your multi million dollar Triple Crown investment being beaten by a mare isn't a good thing.


The way the game is now, this wouldnt surprise me one bit.

[EMD4ME]

Cripples can now do under 110 for 6f now i see, i have a different def of a cripple than you, i know bayern isn,t the horse he once was but a cripple. Speed duels usually dont end up well for those involved.

Beholder took full advantage.

Allan

In terms of a Grade 1 horse WINNING at 9F to 10F, yes, Bayern is done/washed up/uncompetitive/cripple etc.

It was evident from his first stride that he was DONE. He was being pumped and ridden just to show his speed WHILE the ten was under an excercise rider's hammerlock.

Point was and is, Beholder had an ultra perfect trip (Which, I give her tons of credit, SHE CREATED BY BEING SO GOOD) behind 2 impossible horses who rattled off sick fractions for 10F.

I am not knocking her. Was commenting on someone's else post about her trip and how great it was.

Was I knocking Beyern, YES. He is done. I wish he had run in the Longacres Mile. He would've finished OFF THE BOARD at Emerald at 3/5 - 1/1. Would've pushed up Stryke PHD's odds to 5/2 plus.

[EMD4ME]

Often, there's far more drama in your posts than there is in the horses or in their races. (G)arden includes only 5 more letters. Use them. This board isn't your trip note page. And please stop with the excuses when your language is called out. This gets tiresome, EMD. Deal with it.

Simply incorrect Grits. Sorry YOU don't appreciate me putting to life, through descriptive adjectives, what is transpiring. Would you like for me to speak like this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcH-3d-BZn4

Sorry, can't do that.

When people are commenting about a horses trip........I THINK it's o.k. to reply with my version of the horse's trip.

I don't create the drama Grits, I simply speak of it.

Forgive me for speaking racetrack language. I don't know what I was thinking. :rolleyes:

[pandy]

Timeform gave Beholder a 131, matching the top figure for American Pharoah.

[Hank]

If he wins the Travers, Awesome Again, and BC Classic it will be a legendary year of accomplishments. But I've already seen articles and commentary suggesting he hasn't run especially fast yet. A lot of prominent handicappers are very literal about speed figures and ability. I don't agree with that kind of thinking, but it is what it is.

IMO great horses use the other horses as prompters and often do just enough to take over into the stretch and win. They generally don't reveal all of what they have in the tank until a fast pace and tougher competition force them to. We saw an example of that yesterday in the Pacific Classic (and with horses like Zenyatta and others). Hopefully, when that test comes, he'll reveal he has those reserves. I expect him to.

This is very "style" and temperament related.This would be NA with respect to the great "Speeds" Fager Slew etc.

[letswastemoney]

Thank God my BC pass is secure.

[zico20]

Beholder is more of a local champion rather than an all around super star who has proved that can win all over.

When she shipped to Belmont and Churchill Downs she lost both times.

She is not even close to American Pharoah and I doubt if she ever faces him. She will have enough trouble to beat her division in the BCC..

Agree completely. Beholder is Lava Man part two. Lava Man probably couldn't have won a high claiming race outside of California. :D

[Chaka26]

Both American Pharoah and Beholder have now earned an equal TFUS figure of 131--the year's highest.

Zayat wants to run his horse. One can be sure, though, Coolmore would not be excited about the possibility of facing Beholder if she goes in the Classic. They'd rather retire AP long beforehand. And likely will rather than take the risk.

... Contemplating, even the remote thought of your multi million dollar Triple Crown investment being beaten by a mare isn't a good thing.

Yeah but How much would the super foal of AP bred to Beholder go,for if Beholder would win

Cant take the TC away from AP even in defeat and that will be marketed to death

[classhandicapper]

This is very "style" and temperament related.This would be NA with respect to the great "Speeds" Fager Slew etc.

Yeah, the brilliant speed horses will often reveal themselves because they set the pace, but even in Slew's case the critics were diminishing his efforts against Affirmed and Exceller until the Gold Cup.

[cj]

Timeform gave Beholder a 131, matching the top figure for American Pharoah.

It was an impressive effort, and the 2-3 finishers ran about as they had been which was G2 level at best.

Like I said on Twitter, sometimes when horses win races like they have a lot left in the tank they actually do have a lot more to give.

[ultracapper]

Yeah but How much would the super foal of AP bred to Beholder go,for if Beholder would win

Cant take the TC away from AP even in defeat and that will be marketed to death

The fix is in.

[BlinkersOn]

Rumor is, and it's only a rumor, that Beholder will be retired. I would love to see the match-up in the Classic with Honor Code, AP and Beholder, but anyway I look at it, I see AP winning it. I don't think we have seen the tip of the iceberg. I do think that Beholder was a monster in the race yesterday, but I'm also looking at what she faced. Bayern should be retired I think. He's not the same horse, and he never will be again. Beholder was, without a doubt, the best horse in the field, but kudos to her for beating the boys, and doing it soundly.