Serious effort?

[Track Phantom]

PID Race 7 on 8-18-15. The favorite, #3, Rougue Sur La Tete, finished 3rd.

If you isolate on the #3, it sure looks like the rider was disinterested in trying to win the race.

Weak rider or what? Didn't look good.

[Stillriledup]

You have a point.

[EMD4ME]

PID Race 7 on 8-18-15. The favorite, #3, Rougue Sur La Tete, finished 3rd.

If you isolate on the #3, it sure looks like the rider was disinterested in trying to win the race.

Weak rider or what? Didn't look good.

That looked TERRIBLE. He had an ultra perfect trip behind a 3 horse spread while having a nice rating hold on the horse. When the hole opened up at the 1/8, my fat SSS could have fit through there and had room for another truck to come along side.

He never moved his hands. It looked like he was parayzed from the shoulder to his fingers.

I don't care if he's a 6% jock. He's had hundreds of mounts this year. There is no WAY he gave this horse an honest effort.

These are the efforts that make me hate jockeys with a passion. Jocks like this should be banned for life off of a ride like that.

Now, if some smart butt says: the horse had an ailment blah blah blah, then the horse shouldn't have been on the track. I don't buy any excuse given by these clowns.

If I didn't know better, I would believe you if you said that was Julien Couton on this horse.

This horse and more importantly the public got COUPONED here.

[Stillriledup]

That looked TERRIBLE. He had an ultra perfect trip behind a 3 horse spread while having a nice rating hold on the horse. When the hole opened up at the 1/8, my fat SSS could have fit through there and had room for another truck to come along side.

He never moved his hands. It looked like he was parayzed from the shoulder to his fingers.

I don't care if he's a 6% jock. He's had hundreds of mounts this year. There is no WAY he gave this horse an honest effort.

These are the efforts that make me hate jockeys with a passion. Jocks like this should be banned for life off of a ride like that.

Now, if some smart butt says: the horse had an ailment blah blah blah, then the horse shouldn't have been on the track. I don't buy any excuse given by these clowns.

If I didn't know better, I would believe you if you said that was Julien Couton on this horse.

This horse and more importantly the public got COUPONED here.

Jocks are paid to ride, not play vet during the race.

[v j stauffer]

Please post a link to the race. I'd like to give it a look.

[Robert Fischer]

PID Race 7 on 8-18-15. The favorite, #3, Rougue Sur La Tete, finished 3rd.

If you isolate on the #3, it sure looks like the rider was disinterested in trying to win the race.

Weak rider or what? Didn't look good.
Wasn't very smooth.

He had absolutely no reason to take hold of the reigns in the shadow of the wire:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/290xag8.jpg

He had already assured he would not win, once he didn't ride the horse mid-stretch when he was moving to the lead between rivals:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2qdapo8.jpg

Got to sharpen those fundamentals up if you want to escape criticism from bettors in this age of social media.

[Rollingpk3]

im thinking he wasnt too happy when that hole opened up. looks a lot better when you are stuck behind a wall of horses. sadly this will be the last we will hear of it. that takes place in hong kong and the guy never rides in the country again.

[EMD4ME]

im thinking he wasnt too happy when that hole opened up. looks a lot better when you are stuck behind a wall of horses. sadly this will be the last we will hear of it. that takes place in hong kong and the guy never rides in the country again.


Exactly...banned.

I don't play games. If I was in charge, I don't even call him in. Been watching races for 35 years. BANNED for life. Not just here but everywhere.

Hate this kind of slime.

[EMD4ME]

Please post a link to the race. I'd like to give it a look.


http://www.calracing.com/live-video/replays/

I can't link NYRA or Twin Spires. Had to link Calracing.com.

Just pick "horse". Type his name in. Rougue Sur La Tete.

[EMD4ME]

im thinking he wasnt too happy when that hole opened up. looks a lot better when you are stuck behind a wall of horses.

Exactly......

I also "loved" his fake whip inside the 1/16, he just twirled his hand like he's whipping. Paaallleeeezzzeeee.

I hate it when people insult the intelligence of a horseplayer.

Excluding the degenerates across the country that can't even read a newspaper, nevermind a set of PP's, serious horseplayers are some of the smartest people in the world.

We play this game because it's one of the few challenges that actually stimulates our mental capacities.

If and when someone comes out with a response for this bogus attempt to win, their response will surely be just an insult to our intelligence.

[Robert Fischer]

Exactly......

I also "loved" his fake whip inside the 1/16, he just twirled his hand like he's whipping. Paaallleeeezzzeeee.

I hate it when people insult the intelligence of a horseplayer.

Excluding the degenerates across the country that can't even read a newspaper, nevermind a set of PP's, serious horseplayers are some of the smartest people in the world.

We play this game because it's one of the few challenges that actually stimulates our mental capacities.

If and when someone comes out with a response for this bogus attempt to win, their response will surely be just an insult to our intelligence.

Is there a 'Top 10 Reasons...' list yet for these type of excuses?

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7.....

[sammy the sage]

happens EVERY day at EVERY track at least ONCE ...if not more...ce le vie...why I ONLY bet BIG stakes races...

[Rollingpk3]

sadly would anyone be surprised if the the connections said nothing about the effort after the race and will ride the guy right back.

[EMD4ME]

Is there a 'Top 10 Reasons...' list yet for these type of excuses?

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7.....

There might be a top 10 BUT no one has to answer to anything, SO other BS feedback is given.

That's why I went nuts with the EMD thread and why I wrote to Washington State twice.

They patronized me with BS.

Told me the jock made every attempt to correct his horse at the start.

My response: 6 STRIDES of whacking 2 HORSES to your outside as if you're a sledgehammer to a pavement is an attempt to CORRECT A HORSE???

They also told me that the 2 impacted horses of the foul had ample opportunity to make up for the incident....

REALLY??????????????????

Its ok to foul as long as you give the fouled horse a chance to overcome it???

I many times tell myself that I am insane to bet this game. I plug on though.

Not to sound like a jerk but I'll say it. If the game was honest, I'd have no reason to work, ever. I'd make $200,000 a year income tax free.

With the crap that happens every day, you can't rely upon Horse Racing for a steady income stream if you're playing for REAL money. You can be profitable. You can make money over a long period of time. But to be profitable and LIVE off of the game as a one person operation is tough because of this crap.

Can you imagine needing this horse for $100,000?

I would be arrested for assaulting the jock in the jock's room.

[EMD4ME]

Is there a 'Top 10 Reasons...' list yet for these type of excuses?

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7.....


I'm exaggerating but.......

Julien Couton "I was trying to teach the quarter horse how to rate, that's why we stayed 20 lengths back"

Interviewer: But the race was only 200 yards.

Couton: I wanted to see if he could rally.

Maybe that would be #7? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Robert Fischer]

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7. Was teaching the horse to rate
6. ?

[Stillriledup]

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7. Was teaching the horse to rate
6. ?

6. He figured the judges were on the phone arguing about a recent bad DQ w EMD4ME and wouldn't notice.

[EMD4ME]

6. He figured the judges were on the phone arguing about a recent bad DQ w EMD4ME and wouldn't notice.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You have caused my carpet to be worn out from ROFLMAO

[Robert Fischer]

6. He figured the judges were on the phone arguing about a recent bad DQ w EMD4ME and wouldn't notice.
:D


http://oi61.tinypic.com/290xag8.jpg

5. His Birthday is September 2nd...

[ReplayRandall]

PID Race 7 on 8-18-15. The favorite, #3, Rougue Sur La Tete, finished 3rd.

Just another Penn track lock-down race with Jose Garcia aboard this 9 yr old. Guess connections are looking for a better spot?:

http://replays.robertsstream.com/racereplays/playf_llnw.php?customer=PresqueIsle&t=1439946905&h=5cce41e1f318867c5a13c7f7b471c08b&url=201508181953QIN7

[EMD4ME]

10. Shoulder popped out @ the 1/4pole
9. Horse 'didn't feel right underneath him'
8. Misjudged the wire
7. Was teaching the horse to rate
6. ?

There's not many excuses to use. #9 and #8 are popular and they run with those. #7 I have heard a handful of times.

Now if you asked me what could they use as an excuse but that never becomes public....

6) I had to pee/make #2 as soon as the race went off,didn't want a mess in my boots.

5) My contact fell out. Didn't want to jump off and find it.

4) My cup got moved around from a bump and it was uncomfortable

3) My asthma kicked in and just wanted to make it out alive

2) Horse was breathing funny (same as your example)

1) Jockey in front of me was concerned about lugging in, didn't want to shoot through there and get hurt.

[EMD4ME]

Seriously speaking....what would the reaction be from the FBI if I called and said I made a wager across state lines and it was an orchestrated event. My money was stolen and I want to file charges?

Should I ask for the same agents who worked the PENN case?

I'm the type of guy that would MAKE the time to write letters, compile videotape, go undercover, travel 500 miles to testify etc.

I despise cheaters.

[taxicab]

Sore horse,jockey rode him so.

[EMD4ME]

Sore horse,jockey rode him so.

If he knowingly rode a sore horse, he put his life at risk, other riders at risk and compromised the game.

If I were in charge, he would still be banned for life with zero chance for appeal till he's 150 years old.

Different foul, same motivation.

If he knew his horse was sore, he should've told the vet. If he didn't want to be blamed for the scratch, whisper it to the outrider or for someone else to take the heat.

If he knew the horse was sore, he could have bet on other horses in the exacta.

If what you say is true, there was never a point where he stopped riding because he thought the horse was sore or didn't feel right.

Why do I say that?

BECAUSE HE NEVER EVER rode the horse from the 1st to the last stride.

So, if what you say is true, he knew before the bell the horse was sore.

Banned for life, would be my recommendation.

[EMD4ME]

The more I watch this race the more I think he wasn't supposed to even be third. The jock of the 5 didn't realize his horse would bear out. Was trying hard to get back in to be the 3's excuse for not getting through.

Unfortunately (if someone who actually cares looks at this)for Garcia he lost his allibi.

[taxicab]

@ EMD4ME
Sore horses are entered in races all of the time.
It's the nature of the game.
The rider probably didn't want to burn any bridges with the trainer.
Garcia didn't stiff anything.....he took care of the horse.

[bello]

http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=PID&raceDate=08/18/2015&cy=USA&rn=7

Taxicab...it appears you are correct

[taxicab]

The fact that he didn't make it to the races until he was 9 was the tip off.

[SuperPickle]

This is just classic bad jockey/bad horse.

It's a third time starter with Beyers in the 40's.

He just strangled him to death and down the stretch had no horse. I'm not 100% sure the horse wanted to go in the hole but he's clearly let him run at the eighth pole and a horse storms by him for second.

It was a craptacular ride by a glorified exercise rider.

BTW... We're talking about PID jockeys. In that race was that clown, Gilberto Delgado along with a 3% jockey and a 6% jockey.

I'd take NYRA exercise riders over the bottom half of the jockeys in this field.

[EMD4ME]

@ EMD4ME
Sore horses are entered in races all of the time.
It's the nature of the game.
The rider probably didn't want to burn any bridges with the trainer.
Garcia didn't stiff anything.....he took care of the horse.

I know it's the nature of the game, especially the claiming game. I didn't bet this race, for the record, just saying.

If he really was taking care of the horse, he would've had the horse scratched.

It looked terrible.

Again, if he knew the horse was sore before they loaded, he could've wagered against himself. Not good for the game.

Will the stewards call him in? He could say the horse was sore (a valid excuse if it happened during the race). If he never asked the horse, ever, isn't that a reason to believe he knew before the start? Isn't that grounds for some sort of repurcussion?

He also could've pulled the horse up after the wire to complete the stiff job. (if the horse wasn't sore)


If the vets let him in the gate, knowing he's sore and lame. Who's to say they didn't just go along with the "pulled up" comment and reaffirm the lameness after the fact, knowing that he was lame before the start?

There's too much in this game that we as players do nothing about because of indifference or learned helplessness.

I am not one of those guys. I annoy like a fly. Forgive my passion but it makes me sick.

Even if it wasn't a stiff on a healthy horse, it was the usual: put the cripple out there to hope he's claimed, dupe the crowd and at the very least piss off some veteran players who are playing on a Tuesday night.

Real good for the game Presque Isle.

[Milkshaker]

I'm the type of guy that would MAKE the time to write letters, compile videotape, go undercover, travel 500 miles to testify etc.


Just a hunch, but something tells me your propensity for voicing your opinion and exercising your right to free speech on public message boards would place you in a low percentile for being chosen by the FBI for any such undercover endeavor.

[EMD4ME]

Just a hunch, but something tells me your propensity for voicing your opinion and exercising your right to free speech on public message boards would place you in a low percentile for being chosen by the FBI for any such undercover endeavor.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't like undercover work anyway. It would take me away from my handicapping time, which I love :lol: :lol: :lol:

[bello]

Please read the equibase chart I posted before maligning jockeys.

I have seen two jockeys die in person.I will always try to give them the benefit of the doubt I have also seen and heard about more fixed races that I wish I ever were privy to. I am not here to defend scumbag jockeys. But I also don't want to see a jock riding a lame horse accused of being a crook when the horse pulled up lame.

I am surprised some of the posters I respect did not take the time to look at the chart.

[EMD4ME]

Please read the equibase chart I posted before maligning jockeys.

I have seen two jockeys die in person.I will always try to give them the benefit of the doubt I have also seen and heard about more fixed races that I wish I ever were privy to. I am not here to defend scumbag jockeys. But I also don't want to see a jock riding a lame horse accused of being a crook when the horse pulled up lame.

I am surprised some of the posters I respect did not take the time to look at the chart.

Well I don't know if you respect me. If you do, I'm honored. If not, no worries.

I didn't bother to check the chart as their comments mean nothing to me. I go off what I see.

Like I said, if he stiffed a healthy horse, no better excuse than to pull him up quick and say I think he's lame.

If he rode a lame horse on purpose, I don't like that either. He put his life and other's lives at risk. He also helped dupe the betting public. He also (to some of the eyes on here who watched this tape and to the dozens of simulcast players LOL) gave them a reason to not want to bet horses as that just looked bad, regardless of what the truth is. (lame or not lame)

[SuperPickle]

Well I don't know if you respect me. If you do, I'm honored. If not, no worries.

I didn't bother to check the chart as their comments mean nothing to me. I go off what I see.

Like I said, if he stiffed a healthy horse, no better excuse than to pull him up quick and say I think he's lame.

If he rode a lame horse on purpose, I don't like that either. He put his life and other's lives at risk. He also helped dupe the betting public. He also (to some of the eyes on here who watched this tape and to the dozens of simulcast players LOL) gave them a reason to not want to bet horses as that just looked bad, regardless of what the truth is. (lame or not lame)

Seriously? That's the best we can do?

No "oh he was found out to be lame after the race... Problem solved"

Instead you double down with the "made he wasn't really lame" or "maybe he rode a lame horse on purpose"

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[EMD4ME]

Seriously? That's the best we can do?

No "oh he was found out to be lame after the race... Problem solved"

Instead you double down with the "made he wasn't really lame" or "maybe he rode a lame horse on purpose"

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...


From the first stride, he put a calm hold on the horse and went right into the path of leader's butt. Not definitive proof but if I were playing %'s, I'd say he knew he was lame, did the trainer a favor, tried to cover the horse up and stay off the radar.

A hole opened up and he of course didn't aggressively ride his horse knowing he was on a lame horse.

Am I crazy to NOT like that idea? Lame horses should be scratched, especially ones who can not be asked to run at all.

[EMD4ME]

And to be told, that's part of the game does not make that ok.

Steroids were part of the game in baseball till they kind of clamped down. Was it ok that Bonds and McGuire cheated their way to records? Of course not.

Forgive me but I don't like to accept things and say oh well, what can I do about it.

[SuperPickle]

From the first stride, he put a calm hold on the horse and went right into the path of leader's butt. Not definitive proof but if I were playing %'s, I'd say he knew he was lame, did the trainer a favor, tried to cover the horse up and stay off the radar.

A hole opened up and he of course didn't aggressively ride his horse knowing he was on a lame horse.

Am I crazy to NOT like that idea? Lame horses should be scratched, especially ones who can not be asked to run at all.


In cheap PID races all the horses have some physical limitation. That's why they're where they are.

Doesn't it ever occur to you how every week at Del Mar horses either win or hit the board then are claimed and the claim is voided because they don't vet out? Because there's a fine line between being sound enough to race in bottom level claimers and not.

[ReplayRandall]

Please read the equibase chart I posted before maligning jockeys.

I have seen two jockeys die in person.I will always try to give them the benefit of the doubt I have also seen and heard about more fixed races that I wish I ever were privy to. I am not here to defend scumbag jockeys. But I also don't want to see a jock riding a lame horse accused of being a crook when the horse pulled up lame.

I am surprised some of the posters I respect did not take the time to look at the chart.

I was there when Juan Limon was killed yards from the finish line at Los Al, back in '94. We all have scars like you do, Bello.

In regards to the rest of your post, the chart-caller is the same to me as the M/L maker, take their opinions with a grain of salt......I've watched replays on a very high level for over 33 years, and I KNOW what I see and analyze. BTW, true LAMENESS is when a horse is vanned off, not walked off under their own power.

[Rollingpk3]

not saying it will happen, but what the reaction if the horse is entered again withing the next month or so?
i have no idea what went on or what kind of condition the horse was in. i can see both sides of the argument with the chart information now available. to my untrained eye it looked like the jock was timid right from the start and the horse looked loaded for much of the race. i will give him the benefit of the doubt while still saying it wasn't your nomal test ride you sometimes see at a track like mtr.

[EMD4ME]

In cheap PID races all the horses have some physical limitation. That's why they're where they are.

Doesn't it ever occur to you how every week at Del Mar horses either win or hit the board then are claimed and the claim is voided because they don't vet out? Because there's a fine line between being sound enough to race in bottom level claimers and not.

Aren't most of the really lame horses off the board or non competitive?

This horse looked to be full of run for more than a half mile in a nice pocket. There was never any intent to "run".

I don't care if it was a betting coup or an attempt to get a horse claimed, it looked ugly and it's one of the reasons why this game, that I LOVE, has issues.

I've seen way too much and been on track live for the "way too much" that I've seen. If you called me next week and said an article came out that the horse was healthy but they claimed he was sore to cash some bets, I would not be surprised.

I can't prove it but I wouldn't put that past anyone.

Now, if he truly was lame, let's say he was. It again looked like (via the jock's riding) that he was known to be lame prior to the start.

I don't like that for the aforementioned reasons mentioned. Not pretty for the game.

If I brought a newbie to the track and he bet that 3 horse, what would he feel and say after watching that ride? How do I explain that to him?

[Robert Fischer]

In cheap PID races all the horses have some physical limitation. That's why they're where they are.

Doesn't it ever occur to you how every week at Del Mar horses either win or hit the board then are claimed and the claim is voided because they don't vet out? Because there's a fine line between being sound enough to race in bottom level claimers and not.

There's a problem when vet-exams are 'class-relative'.

At least that is my opinion.

When we see a non-effort like this there sure are a lot of defenders.

Then, on the other hand, - when we see a once-proud former stakes winner dropped/dumped from the big leagues by an unpopular claiming trainer, suddenly the exact same situation produces a public outcry...

Horses and bettors are being 'leveraged' when we have these 'class-relative' vet standards.

[whodoyoulike]

The fact that he didn't make it to the races until he was 9 was the tip off.

Is this normal for PID .... starting their racing career as a 9yo?

Has anyone been able to see any of the video links because I was unable?

How did Robert Fisher acquire those two photos?

I noticed the Bris pp's indicated he was a first time gelded before this race. Also, he was the top BPP for this race and the race favorite @ 1.50 ($8679 of $26553 was bet to win).

[EMD4ME]

There's a problem when vet-exams are 'class-relative'.

At least that is my opinion.

When we see a non-effort like this there sure are a lot of defenders.

Then, on the other hand, - when we see a once-proud former stakes winner dropped from the big leagues by an unpopular claiming trainer, and suddenly the exact same situation produces a public outcry...

Horse's and bettors are being 'leveraged' when we have this 'class-relative' vet standards.

I agree Robert, 100%.

On a kind of different note....

It's one thing to race a kind of sore horse or horse with issues if you are actually trying to win. I am not saying IT'S ok but that's one thing. It's a totally different thing when you are running a horse that you can't even encourage to run AT ALL. Call me naive but that's DANGEROUS.

In this case, I could care less what the chartcaller stated. That horse looked fine to me and looked to have horse at all parts of the race until maybe the last 1/16th.

When I'm on the treadmill, I don't go 6 MPH when the belt is moving at 4 MPH for me. I go 4 MPH. If my brain doesn't ask my finger to hit the button and make it 6 MPH, it won't move to 6 MPH on it's own.

This horse looked to have more from the gate till near the wire and was never ever asked to run.

That again tells me it's either 1) a no go or 2) they knew he was super sore before the start.

Either way, I hate it.

[EMD4ME]

Is this normal for PID .... starting their racing career as a 9yo?

Has anyone been able to see any of the video links because I was unable?

How did Robert Fisher acquire those two photos?

I noticed the Bris pp's indicated he was a first time gelded before this race. Also, he was the top BPP for this race and the race favorite @ 1.50 ($8679 of $26553 was bet to win).

I posted the video in the beginning posts for VIC and all of us.

[Robert Fischer]

That again tells me it's either 1) a no go or 2) they knew he was super sore before the start.

Either way, I hate it.


I agree 100% with that as well.

[Rollingpk3]

interesting that when you watch the replay a minute and a half after the race was over and the winner finishes and is jogging back to the winners circle he passes the 3 horse with the jock still aboard galloping back as well like nothing is off. doesnt appear to be a very quick pull up either.

[ReplayRandall]

Is this normal for PID .... starting their racing career as a 9yo?

Has anyone been able to see any of the video links because I was unable?

How did Robert Fisher acquire those two photos?

I noticed the Bris pp's indicated he was a first time gelded before this race. Also, he was the top BPP for this race and the race favorite @ 1.50 ($8679 of $26553 was bet to win).

PID Race 7 on 8-18-15. The favorite, #3, Rougue Sur La Tete:

http://www.presqueisledowns.com/racing/race-event-replays/

[EMD4ME]

interesting that when you watch the replay a minute and a half after the race was over and the winner finishes and is jogging back to the winners circle he passes the 3 horse with the jock still aboard galloping back as well like nothing is off. doesnt appear to be a very quick pull up either.

When it smells like a rat, looks like a rat, moves like a rat........it's a rat.

I don't care what kind of rat it is, it's still an UGLY RAT.

Good pick up Rollingpk3....

So, defenders of the jock....that tells me he didn't think the horse was lame....so boys, care to tell me why he didn't ride the horse at all?

[RXB]

3 was very obviously limping up front.

[bello]

interesting that when you watch the replay a minute and a half after the race was over and the winner finishes and is jogging back to the winners circle he passes the 3 horse with the jock still aboard galloping back as well like nothing is off. doesnt appear to be a very quick pull up either.

Jock was not galloping the 3 back. Yes he was on the horses back, but the 3 was walking back and clearly gimpy

[menifee]

More bizarre than the ride is that this horse went off at 3/2 odds.

9 year old horse making third life time start. Just gelded. Interesting horse to bet down to those odds.

The 1/38 winner with a jockey hitting at a 4% clip at 9-1 might have been a worse value play, but that horse actually won the race. Man, this is a tough game.

[EMD4ME]

Why would he stay on the horse if the horse was limping? Are these guys that bad at what they do?

So he cared for the horse during the race but stayed on him as he was limping?

I'm getting more disgusted the more I think about this.

[cj]

The more I watch this race the more I think he wasn't supposed to even be third. The jock of the 5 didn't realize his horse would bear out. Was trying hard to get back in to be the 3's excuse for not getting through.

Unfortunately (if someone who actually cares looks at this)for Garcia he lost his allibi.

I don't think there is enough in the pools to make much money via a fix. Doubt you can bet much offshore on the PID either, but I could be wrong as always.

[dragon49]

I didn't have any betting interest in the race but the thread interested me, so I watched a replay at twinspires. At around the 1:25 mark of the video which should correspond to to around the 1:12 mark of the race, look carefully at the #3 Horse's (Rouge Sur La Tete) back inside leg. It is not healthy. If the jockey pulled him up at this point, it was the responsible thing to do.

[Rollingpk3]

I don't think there is enough in the pools to make much money via a fix. Doubt you can bet much offshore on the PID either, but I could be wrong as always.
werent the jocks that got banned from tampa fixing races at great lakes downs?
tough to find smaller pools than that

[cj]

Is this normal for PID .... starting their racing career as a 9yo?

Has anyone been able to see any of the video links because I was unable?

How did Robert Fisher acquire those two photos?

I noticed the Bris pp's indicated he was a first time gelded before this race. Also, he was the top BPP for this race and the race favorite @ 1.50 ($8679 of $26553 was bet to win).

I'd be shocked if this horse wasn't already a gelding before his first start. I doubt they have due diligence on these sorts of things at the PID. They race to keep the slots turning, nothing more.

[Rollingpk3]

I didn't have any betting interest in the race but the thread interested me, so I watched a replay at twinspires. At around the 1:25 mark of the video which should correspond to to around the 1:12 mark of the race, look carefully at the #3 Horse's (Rouge Sur La Tete) back inside leg. It is not healthy. If the jockey pulled him up at this point, it was the responsible thing to do.


followed by the jockey jumping off when the horses stops,followed by the horse ambulance. if the horse is that noticeable off to the naked eye there really isnt another possible outcome right?

[EMD4ME]

I don't think there is enough in the pools to make much money via a fix. Doubt you can bet much offshore on the PID either, but I could be wrong as always.

I don't know CJ. $28,000 in the win pool in that race. $26,407 in the exacta pool and $23,771 in the Tri pool. Purse was $11,000. Winning jock makes $660 taxable. Assuming 25% tax bracket, $495 net income if he wins the race.

$100 on the winner nets $1000 tax free or a $20 exacta gets you $1100. Nevermind tri's pick 3's blah blah blah.

Not saying this was the case. It's one possibility with a ride like that.

My head is spinning from this race and honestly after all this back and forth, I don't care what happened. All I know is, after their bogus DQ last week, not answering the phone when I called and now this, I will make sure I will not make a wager there as well. Not that I do now but I'll make sure I don't in the future.

As for what happened. HA. I'm at a loss. If he knew he was sore, why gallop out on the horse. If he didn't think he was sore till the gallop out, why not ride the horse at all?

At this point, I don't care anymore to solve it. I just know to stay away from those boys.

[cj]

werent the jocks that got banned from tampa fixing races at great lakes downs?
tough to find smaller pools than that

We never really heard any details on this, so I can't really say. It was pretty much swept under the rug and nobody was ever charged with anything best I can remember.

[thaskalos]

werent the jocks that got banned from tampa fixing races at great lakes downs?
tough to find smaller pools than that

If we wait for another 15 years...the full details of that investigation will finally be released to the general public.

[cj]

I don't know CJ. $28,000 in the win pool in that race. $26,407 in the exacta pool and $23,771 in the Tri pool. Purse was $11,000. Winning jock makes $660 taxable. Assuming 25% tax bracket, $495 net income if he wins the race.

$100 on the winner nets $1000 tax free or a $20 exacta gets you $1100. Nevermind tri's pick 3's blah blah blah.

Not saying this was the case. It's one possibility with a ride like that.

My head is spinning from this race and honestly after all this back and forth, I don't care what happened. All I know is, after their bogus DQ last week, not answering the phone when I called and now this, I will make sure I will not make a wager there as well. Not that I do now but I'll make sure I don't in the future.

As for what happened. HA. I'm at a loss. If he knew he was sore, why gallop out on the horse. If he didn't think he was sore till the gallop out, why not ride the horse at all?

At this point, I don't care anymore to solve it. I just know to stay away from those boys.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on this. I guess if they can fix a race at EvD they can fix a race at the PID. I think I mentioned this in the EmD thread, I'm done with claimers. It just isn't worth my time. It is human racing, not horse racing. It has always been that way to a point but not like it is in 2015.

[cj]

If we wait for another 15 years...the full details of that investigation will finally be released to the general public.

It is a race to which will be first, that one or the past posting incident at Fairplex. For some reason the track isn't being disclosed even though IT NO LONGER EXISTS!

[EMD4ME]

I didn't have any betting interest in the race but the thread interested me, so I watched a replay at twinspires. At around the 1:25 mark of the video which should correspond to to around the 1:12 mark of the race, look carefully at the #3 Horse's (Rouge Sur La Tete) back inside leg. It is not healthy. If the jockey pulled him up at this point, it was the responsible thing to do.


I appreciate your visual feedback.

But the problem is he didn't pull him up if something went wrong at that point.

He didn't cut the gallop out short and jump off.

He was on the horse as the horse was circling back to come back at the 11/16th's or 3/4 pole. Why?

There's was never a point in the race where one could say he stopped riding as he never started riding .

Like I said, this one will rack my brain and I know I'll never solve it so I give up.

[Rollingpk3]

added the horse to my stable mail. im hoping we dont see the horse in the entries for a long time.

[EMD4ME]

Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on this. I guess if they can fix a race at EvD they can fix a race at the PID. I think I mentioned this in the EmD thread, I'm done with claimers. It just isn't worth my time. It is human racing, not horse racing. It has always been that way to a point but not like it is in 2015.

I've really curtailed my betting on open claimers. Hate them.

MDSPWT's I LOVE. All stakes and allowances are good. I do like Maiden Starters at NYRA and I do actually like N2L's and N3L's.

Any open claiming race, I despise. It's people betting and biological warfare to the extreme. I'm WITH YOU ON AVOIDING ALL claimers (open claimers in my book).

And to be clear for everyone else, I am NOT saying he stiffed the horse. I truly believe, with every fiber of my being that there was a major (multiple parties involved) coup in the thread that I started but this one is too confusing. It's either he did OR he knew the horse was lame before the race. I don't buy the story of he went lame during the race.

[menifee]

I'd be shocked if this horse wasn't already a gelding before his first start. I doubt they have due diligence on these sorts of things at the PID. They race to keep the slots turning, nothing more.

Horse was gelded July 20, 2015. First race was in June. Broke the maiden on July 5, 2015.

[EMD4ME]

It is a race to which will be first, that one or the past posting incident at Fairplex. For some reason the track isn't being disclosed even though IT NO LONGER EXISTS!


:lol: :lol: :lol: What a game...

I don't bet harness but I'm still waiting for the Yonkers fix/investigation to come out. The 83 exacta that was a boat race with a major punch coming in on 83 in the last flash. I don't remember but I think the winner paid $62 bucks and with a 7/1 shot the exacta paid $70 BUCKS!

[taxicab]

So, defenders of the jock....that tells me he didn't think the horse was lame....so boys, care to tell me why he didn't ride the horse at all?

What part of the horse was lame don't you understand.
The race chart clearly states the jock pulled the horse up lame after the wire.
The horse didn't make his first start until he was a nine year old,the jockey babied the horse all the way around the track and the horse was on the vets list lame before he made it back to his barn.
If he would of rode the horse hard the horse would of broken down and been destroyed......is that clear enough for you ?

[taxicab]

OGUE reserved off the early pace, circled in the turn and rallied on the far outside to be clear late. KNUTE hopped at the start giving the field a couple lengths, was rank through the chute, settled into stride entering the main track, remained near the rear under patient handling to the top of the lane, split rivals in the stretch and finished well to be gaining at the wire. ROUGE SUR LA TETE tracked the leaders to the quarter pole, made a bold bid in mid-stretch, was outfinished late and pulled up lame after the wire and walked off under his own power. HAMMERHEAD slow early to be near the back and mounted a good belated rally through the stretch. BIG MEOW sped to the lead setting a pressured pace, dug-in through the drive when challenged and weakened inside the final sixteenth. LITTLE DRUMMER went evenly. GOOD MOVER pressed the pace from the rail to the head of the lae, kept on to deep stretch and tired late in the lane. GO WITH PEACE stalked the pace from three wide to the quarter pole to loom boldly and flattened out in the drive. IN DANIEL'S BOOTS contended for the first half mile, dropped back through the stretch and pulled up lame and was vanned off. HE'S A PURE TUFF flashed speed for a quarter mile and was through ear

[menifee]

This gets more interesting - this horse was gelded on 7/20/15. They tried to run him on 7.23.15 and it was scratched by the stewards.

This person runs a blog on horses and has a horse list of horses she thinks are over-raced or are in some form of danger on the track. This horse made an appearance on that list.

http://eyesareon.blogspot.com/2015/06/introductory.html

[thaskalos]

What part of the horse was lame don't you understand.
The race chart clearly states the jock pulled the horse up lame after the wire.
The horse didn't make his first start until he was a nine year old,the jockey babied the horse all the way around the track and the horse was on the vets list lame before he made it back to his barn.
If he would of rode the horse hard the horse would of broken down and been destroyed......is that clear enough for you ?

Aren't they supposed to be pulled up lame BEFORE the wire?

[EMD4ME]

What part of the horse was lame don't you understand.
The race chart clearly states the jock pulled the horse up lame after the wire.
The horse didn't make his first start until he was a nine year old,the jockey babied the horse all the way around the track and the horse was on the vets list lame before he made it back to his barn.
If he would of rode the horse hard the horse would of broken down and been destroyed......is that clear enough for you ?

I question it.

If a horse is lame and I'm riding it carefully, I wouldn't gallop out all the way to the 11/16th's with the lame horse.

I sure as hell would not be sitting on the poor guy a minute or two after the wire....and let's forget the fact I weigh 210 pounds LOL. Make believe I weigh 110.

The chart caller at Emerald said 'saved ground, angled out late' in the race that made me blow up 3 weeks back. Forgive me for questioning the integrity of a race charter.... I didn't realize they are the holy grail....

I learned 20 plus years ago, ignore the chart caller. Watch the race yourself.

Now....

If he rode the horse hard and he broke down.....WHY IS THIS HORSE IN THE RACE? Why is it ok that the jock took care of him and didn't ride him? People went nuts when Life At Ten was lame, where's the outcry here???????

[EMD4ME]

Aren't they supposed to be pulled up lame BEFORE the wire?

Or at the very least (because you know you're supposedly riding a sore horse and you didn't ride him AT ALL throughout the race) right after the wire???

[ReplayRandall]

I question it.

If a horse is lame and I'm riding it carefully, I wouldn't gallop out all the way to the 11/16th's with the lame horse.

I sure as hell would not be sitting on the poor guy a minute or two after the wire....and let's forget the fact I weigh 210 pounds LOL. Make believe I weigh 110.

The chart caller at Emerald said 'saved ground, angled out late' in the race that made me blow up 3 weeks back. Forgive me for questioning the integrity of a race charter.... I didn't realize they are the holy grail....

I learned 20 plus years ago, ignore the chart caller. Watch the race yourself.

Now....

If he rode the horse hard and he broke down.....WHY IS THIS HORSE IN THE RACE? Why is it ok that the jock took care of him and didn't ride him? People went nuts when Life At Ten was lame, where's the outcry here???????

I love you brother, but an OUTCRY at PID?? :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

This gets more interesting - this horse was gelded on 7/20/15. They tried to run him on 7.23.15 and it was scratched by the stewards.

This person runs a blog on horses and has a horse list of horses she thinks are over-raced or are in some form of danger on the track. This horse made an appearance on that list.

http://eyesareon.blogspot.com/2015/06/introductory.html

Sincere questions.

Did this person/these people add him to the list after today's race? I see the date of the sheet is not from August but it has today's race listed in there. Was it because of the Steward scratch on 7/23/15? Did the horse make the list because he is a 9 year old First Time Starter?

What does "Eyes on only" mean?

Assuming he's been on a list of some sort for a while and the horse is sore it again annoys me to no end that they would race a horse who's 1 step from death at 9 years old.....or at ANY AGE.

Yes, I sound like an animal loving crazy. I am not, I just don't think that should be allowed. A ride like that places the claiming game, sore horse situation under a microscope. What is found does not look good.

[EMD4ME]

I love you brother, but an OUTCRY at PID?? :lol: :lol:

Well :lol: :lol: :lol: I wasn't calling for an outcry of Life At Ten's proportion but at least an outcry from the seasoned vets on here.

I just don't think it's right that we all just defend it as part of the game. I hate learned helplessness.

Off topic, I see you're from NC. Have my only living sibling (only child, have 1 cousin) in Charlotte. Do you guys have Parimutual wagering legal there? Or is that still against the southern belt's morals?

[ReplayRandall]

Off topic, I see you're from NC. Have my only living sibling (only child, have 1 cousin) in Charlotte. Do you guys have Parimutual wagering legal there? Or is that still against the southern belt's morals?

Cyberspace is a wonderful place for Charlotteans who love horse racing.... :cool:

[EMD4ME]

ROUGE SUR LA TETE tracked the leaders to the quarter pole, made a bold bid in mid-stretch, was outfinished late and pulled up lame after the wire and walked off under his own power.

Did you see a BOLD MOVE anywhere by the jockey on this horse?

Not to nitpick but chart callers are some of the worst race watchers.

It's ironic how some people who specialize in one thing are that bad at their one task.

Just like cabbies are some of the worst drivers (worst being defined as taking 2 lanes, not signalling, drive too slow, aren't efficient in getting to point a to point b). Not attacking you but it really is just an analogy that came to mind as my best friend is an NYC cabbie.

I ask you....if this horse was this lame before the start, why is that o.k.?

If the horse became lame during the race, or at the very least, got worse during the race, why is it ok that the jock galloped him out so far and STAYED ON?

[cj]

Horse was gelded July 20, 2015. First race was in June. Broke the maiden on July 5, 2015.

That is when the horse was REPORTED as a gelding, not the day it actually was done.

[EMD4ME]

Cyberspace is a wonderful place for Charlotteans who love horse racing.... :cool:

Here's what I really want to know :lol:

If I visit, can I still bet on line via NYRA REWARDS or will they know via the PC that I'm using that I am not in NY. I would still be a NYS resident but just out of town.

[Stillriledup]

In cheap PID races all the horses have some physical limitation. That's why they're where they are.

Doesn't it ever occur to you how every week at Del Mar horses either win or hit the board then are claimed and the claim is voided because they don't vet out? Because there's a fine line between being sound enough to race in bottom level claimers and not.

Exactly. And all those horses are ridden thru the wire.

[taxicab]

ROUGE SUR LA TETE tracked the leaders to the quarter pole, made a bold bid in mid-stretch, was outfinished late and pulled up lame after the wire and walked off under his own power.

Did you see a BOLD MOVE anywhere by the jockey on this horse?

Not to nitpick but chart callers are some of the worst race watchers.

It's ironic how some people who specialize in one thing are that bad at their one task.

Just like cabbies are some of the worst drivers (worst being defined as taking 2 lanes, not signalling, drive too slow, aren't efficient in getting to point a to point b). Not attacking you but it really is just an analogy that came to mind as my best friend is an NYC cabbie.

I ask you....if this horse was this lame before the start, why is that o.k.?

If the horse became lame during the race, or at the very least, got worse during the race, why is it ok that the jock galloped him out so far and STAYED ON?


The horse couldn't even jog after the race and limped back to the saddling enclosure.
That would be the definition of a lame horse.

[Stillriledup]

What part of the horse was lame don't you understand.
The race chart clearly states the jock pulled the horse up lame after the wire.
The horse didn't make his first start until he was a nine year old,the jockey babied the horse all the way around the track and the horse was on the vets list lame before he made it back to his barn.
If he would of rode the horse hard the horse would of broken down and been destroyed......is that clear enough for you ?

The part we don't understand is this, if the horse is lame, you pull up the horse immediately. Also, on the So Cal voided claims front, do you know how many horses come back lame and get the claim voided and then show up 2 weeks later and race well?

Also, jockeys are jockeys, they're paid to ride not make veterinary decisions during races. If the horse is seriously lame, pull the horse up, If you don't pull the horse up I'm expecting at least an aggressive hand ride to the wire.

[EMD4ME]

The part we don't understand is this, if the horse is lame, you pull up the horse immediately. Also, on the So Cal voided claims front, do you know how many horses come back lame and get the claim voided and then show up 2 weeks later and race well?

Also, jockeys are jockeys, they're paid to ride not make veterinary decisions during races. If the horse is seriously lame, pull the horse up, If you don't pull the horse up I'm expecting at least an aggressive hand ride to the wire.

Excellent points SRU. If the horse is lame, pull him up, AT LEAST after the wire.

If he's lame, the jock knows it and gives a half S effort, you get people looking at this game like it's rigged and you have no shot unless you're in the know. The perception is bad.

[EMD4ME]

The horse couldn't even jog after the race and limped back to the saddling enclosure.
That would be the definition of a lame horse.

OK, let's say he was lame. Why gallop him out to the 11/16th's pole? Why keep your body weight on him?

How bad did his "protecting" of the horse look from the gate till the wire?

[taxicab]

The part we don't understand is this, if the horse is lame, you pull up the horse immediately. Also, on the So Cal voided claims front, do you know how many horses come back lame and get the claim voided and then show up 2 weeks later and race well?

Also, jockeys are jockeys, they're paid to ride not make veterinary decisions during races. If the horse is seriously lame, pull the horse up, If you don't pull the horse up I'm expecting at least an aggressive hand ride to the wire.


The horse is obviously a cripple.
He didn't make his first start until he was a 9yo.
The jockey babied him around the track and had to pull the horse up lame soon after the wire.
The horse limped back to the saddling enclosure.......he couldn't even jog.
Your "jockeys aren't paid to make veterinary decisions" argument is pure pretzel logic.

[taxicab]

OK, let's say he was lame. Why gallop him out to the 11/16th's pole? Why keep your body weight on him?

How bad did his "protecting" of the horse look from the gate till the wire?

The horse didn't have a broken leg.......he was lame.
There's a big difference between the two conditions.

[taxicab]

Horse Lameness (or Equine Lameness)
Horse lameness or equine lameness is mild to severe loss of ability to move normally that can be caused by problems in a horse's bones, muscles, nerves, tendons, ligaments, brain, circulation, and metabolism. Almost any abnormality in the body can affect a horse so that he or she becomes lame. The majority of horse lameness problems occur in the foot.

Horse lameness can occur suddenly or gradually. Lameness can increase in severity or never change. It can resolve on its own or require veterinary intervention. Fortunately, there are many ways to decrease the likelihood that lameness will develop in your horse, including having annual visits with an equine veterinarian. Small animal veterinarians who attend meetings of the American Association of Equine Practitioners may also provide hel

[Track Phantom]

I am perfectly satisfied with the bad action due to the horse not being right during the race. It explains what I saw with the naked eye.

What bothers me is this. If the rider didn't extend energy to win the race when he was clearly in a prime position to do so turning for home, and again, when the hole opened in mid-stretch, we must assume he knew something wasn't right with the horse from the top of the stretch to the finish. If that is true, why didn't he pull him up?

I've never ridden a T'bred so I'm not about to force my opinion, but if he doesn't try during over a third of the race, thus screwing bettors of a chance to cash on their wagers, the only plausible explanation is that he knew the horse wasn't right and thus, didn't try to ask much of him. This doesn't explain why he would allow this fragile, ticking time-bomb to finish right in the middle of 7 or 8 other horses. If he goes down, a lot of chaos follows.

Whenever a rider doesn't finish all-out when in a position to win the race, he should be called in immediately to explain himself and the public should be provided a summary of that discussion. My guess is the stewards never even saw this and the only action being taken is fingers on a keyboard posting on this forum.

This is all about integrity and transparency. I didn't bet that horse so the outcome didn't matter to me. Without diligent oversight, it is getting harder to justify taking the game very seriously.

We have to trust that our interests are being protected when we (hard-core players) are carrying this industry on our back with our wagering dollars.

[Stillriledup]

The horse is obviously a cripple.
He didn't make his first start until he was a 9yo.
The jockey babied him around the track and had to pull the horse up lame soon after the wire.
The horse limped back to the saddling enclosure.......he couldn't even jog.
Your "jockeys aren't paid to make veterinary decisions" argument is pure pretzel logic.

Once you permit jockeys to ride hard only when they have a eureka moment, thats a bad precedent.

It's pretty simple for me as a horseplayer, if a horse is running around the track, I expect the Jockey to ride hard to win.

I don't think I'm asking for much.

[Kash$]

We never really heard any details on this, so I can't really say. It was pretty much swept under the rug and nobody was ever charged with anything best I can remember.

TD Haughton banned from Tampa

[bello]

:lol: :lol: :lol: What a game...

I don't bet harness but I'm still waiting for the Yonkers fix/investigation to come out. The 83 exacta that was a boat race with a major punch coming in on 83 in the last flash. I don't remember but I think the winner paid $62 bucks and with a 7/1 shot the exacta paid $70 BUCKS!

Now you are talking my language. This Yonkers race WAS fixed. In particular when you compare the actions of a certain driver on the racetrack WITH THE PAYOFF.

Second thing I looked at after the replay of this race was the payoff and I didn't see much wrong.

BTW, I did not disagree with you on Couton either. I don't follow EMD but I do follow NoCal and I didnt trust the guy there.

Every instance need to be judged differently. My gut and you gut disagree on this one. Hey that make horse racing.

[cj]

TD Haughton banned from Tampa

Yep, but no information was divulged.

[wisconsin]

Just watched the replay. Nursed the horse along, in my opinion, and the horse made the lead between horses on his own with no help from the jock, just was not good enough or sound enough. At no point do I see anything "fixed" here, really.

[EMD4ME]

Now you are talking my language. This Yonkers race WAS fixed. In particular when you compare the actions of a certain driver on the racetrack WITH THE PAYOFF.

Second thing I looked at after the replay of this race was the payoff and I didn't see much wrong.

BTW, I did not disagree with you on Couton either. I don't follow EMD but I do follow NoCal and I didnt trust the guy there.

Every instance need to be judged differently. My gut and you gut disagree on this one. Hey that make horse racing.

I won't even pretend to know as I really don't follow harness. Was I right on those details? 30/1 and 7/1 paid $72 bucks? It was 8 3, right? I think the last flash was $300 and after they lined up 8-3, it went to $72 and no one ever made a move?

Couton gives Coupon rides, to put it nicely :lol:

I don't mind disagreeing with anyone about this Presque Isle race, not even I know what I think happened. I have 3 possibilities in my brain and can't decide. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

Once you permit jockeys to ride hard only when they have a eureka moment, thats a bad precedent.

It's pretty simple for me as a horseplayer, if a horse is running around the track, I expect the Jockey to ride hard to win.

I don't think I'm asking for much.

No, you're not. It is that simple. If the horse can't be ridden at all, what the heck is he/she doing out there?

[bello]

I won't even pretend to know as I really don't follow harness. Was I right on those details? 30/1 and 7/1 paid $72 bucks? It was 8 3, right? I think the last flash was $300 and after they lined up 8-3, it went to $72 and no one ever made a move?

Couton gives Coupon rides, to put it nicely :lol:

I don't mind disagreeing with anyone about this Presque Isle race, not even I know what I think happened. I have 3 possibilities in my brain and can't decide. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here are the gory details of the Yonkers Fix....And I have to problem calling it just that.

Knowing what I know about Yonkers I have not made a bet there in two decades. And I do play harness racing


1 BULLVILLE MAGGIE (L) Macdonald, Mark
ML: 9/1 Current: 36 Tr: Crevani, Stephen

2 WIKEDWITCHOTHEWEST (L) Carlson, Eric
ML:20/1Current: 29 Tr: Jasper, Philip

3 LADY SPARTACUS (B) Zeron, Scott
ML:5/1Current: 4 Tr: Toscano, Linda

4 QUICK AINT FAIR Sears, Brian
ML:2/1Current:2/5 Tr: Ryder, Chris

5 LISSAN Brennan, George
ML:8/1Current: 16 Tr: Burke, Ron

6 SPECIAL PACKAGE Buter, Tyler
ML:7/1Current: 14 Tr: Fanning, Tom

7 GAME THEORY Dube, Daniel
ML:7/2Current: 8 Tr: Cancelliere, Thomas

8 REPEAT PLEASE Stratton, Jordan
ML:7/1Current: 13 Tr: Mallar, Roland

Sears at 2-5 finishes out of the exacta. Finishes 5-1-4. (16/1 over 36/1) Those who bet this longshot exacta were rewarded with........
$1.00 Exacta 5/1 $49.40


The whole payout.....................
# Win Place Show
5 $34.80 $14.20 $5.90
1 . $29.70 $7.50
4 . . $2.30

$1.00 Exacta 5/1 $49.40
$1.00 Trifecta 5/1/4 $509.70

[SuperPickle]

We'll we've more or less hit the same point as the Emerald thread.

A bad ride at PID coupled with some odd payouts at Yonkers.

It's like the opening scene to JFK.

I'm 99.9999% sure Oliver Stone posts on this board.

[EMD4ME]

We'll we've more or less hit the same point as the Emerald thread.

A bad ride at PID coupled with some odd payouts at Yonkers.

It's like the opening scene to JFK.

I'm 99.9999% sure Oliver Stone posts on this board.

Yeah because racing is such an honest game :lol:

Are we not allowed to question peculiar looking items?

[EMD4ME]

2-5 finishes out of the exacta. Finishes 5-1-4. (16/1 over 36/1) Those who bet this longshot exacta were rewarded with........
$1.00 Exacta 5/1 $49.40


I actually don't remember this but that does not shock me.

I do remember a race with an 8-3 line up and no movement to the wire with the 8 being 30/1 and the 3 7/1. I remember that exacta being smacked from $300 to $72 or so. (I'm going off what I read).

Do you remember that as well?

[SuperPickle]

Yeah because racing is such an honest game :lol:

Are we not allowed to question peculiar looking items?


Yeah but here lies where you are full of crap.

You profess love for the game but yet anytime you see something you don't understand you think the race is "fixed."

No offense but real industry people and real racetrackers laugh at people like you but you don't even understand what you're saying. The worst thing anyone can say about a jockey in this business is he "stiffed" a horse. It's like calling someone who works with kids a child molester. You simply don't do it unless you have the goods. Yet you do it VERY casually.

So simply put I think you're just a guy who enjoys going to track and enjoys betting but really doesn't give two craps about the sport. Because you simply can't say you love the sport and throw that around casually. It's highly disrespectful of the people who work in the industry. It's literally the worse thing you can say about them.

You can say jockeys stink, trainers are awful, stewards are blind, executives are clueless, clockers are morons. But when you start throwing around horses are "SPIFFED" by jockeys and races are "FIXED" with ZERO proof its horrendous behavior.

And you're not a big enough person to admit your wrong.

[cj]

Yeah because racing is such an honest game :lol:

Are we not allowed to question peculiar looking items?

You can and should, and it doesn't hurt to actually try to contact tracks and discuss with them as well. (I know the PID has your # blocked!)

[Stillriledup]

Yeah but here lies where you are full of crap.

You profess love for the game but yet anytime you see something you don't understand you think the race is "fixed."

No offense but real industry people and real racetrackers laugh at people like you but you don't even understand what you're saying. The worst thing anyone can say about a jockey in this business is he "stiffed" a horse. It's like calling someone who works with kids a child molester. You simply don't do it unless you have the goods. Yet you do it VERY casually.

So simply put I think you're just a guy who enjoys going to track and enjoys betting but really doesn't give two craps about the sport. Because you simply can't say you love the sport and throw that around casually. It's highly disrespectful of the people who work in the industry. It's literally the worse thing you can say about them.

You can say jockeys stink, trainers are awful, stewards are blind, executives are clueless, clockers are morons. But when you start throwing around horses are "SPIFFED" by jockeys and races are "FIXED" with ZERO proof its horrendous behavior.

And you're not a big enough person to admit your wrong.

Do you know what 'stiffed' means? It's when a jockey is stiff, which this jockey was, he was barely moving, thus, he was 'stiff' looking in the saddle.

Now, does it mean there was some elaborate plan to be off the board on purpose? Who's to say, it would take more investigation to uncover what really went on.

As far as 'zero proof' goes I'd say there's pretty strong proof that this rider didnt urge the horse as hard as he possibly could, so as far as proof goes, I think you need proof that this was NOT a boat race. This was an outlier as most jocks urge their mounts thru the wire, so to me, The "proof" is the lack of aggressive urging, so the jock is at least guilty of not trying as hard as he could.

Nobody knows if this was a fixed race or not without a much more thorough investigation, you're defending this jock like you have proof this was not a setup.

What proof do you have?

[EMD4ME]

You can and should, and it doesn't hurt to actually try to contact tracks and discuss with them as well. (I know the PID has your # blocked!)


I LOVE IT :jump: :jump: :lol: :lol:

[Robert Fischer]

Do you know what 'stiffed' means? It's when a jockey is stiff, which this jockey was, he was barely moving, thus, he was 'stiff' looking in the saddle.

Now, does it mean there was some elaborate plan to be off the board on purpose? Who's to say, it would take more investigation to uncover what really went on.

As far as 'zero proof' goes I'd say there's pretty strong proof that this rider didnt urge the horse as hard as he possibly could, so as far as proof goes, I think you need proof that this was NOT a boat race. This was an outlier as most jocks urge their mounts thru the wire, so to me, The "proof" is the lack of aggressive urging, so the jock is at least guilty of not trying as hard as he could.

Nobody knows if this was a fixed race or not without a much more thorough investigation, you're defending this jock like you have proof this was not a setup.

What proof do you have?

Exactly

AT BEST (AND HIGHLY UNLIKELY) = He 'suddenly' realized the horse was unsound out of the gate and opted to let the horse run while putting the other horses and jockeys at risk. :blush::(:mad:


SLIGHTLY MORE LIKELY THAN THE EPIPHANY OF UNSOUNDNES = He fixed the race so his buddy could claim the horse w/out losing a condition(which did not happen) or a score in multi-races/exotics (which was not apparent). :blush::(:mad:

VERY LIKELY = He knew he was on an unsound horse, tried to pick up a check while letting the horse be claim-bait. :blush::(:mad:


Valento and EMD4ME were 100% correct in this thread.

[EMD4ME]

Yeah but here lies where you are full of crap.

You profess love for the game but yet anytime you see something you don't understand you think the race is "fixed."

No offense but real industry people and real racetrackers laugh at people like you but you don't even understand what you're saying. The worst thing anyone can say about a jockey in this business is he "stiffed" a horse. It's like calling someone who works with kids a child molester. You simply don't do it unless you have the goods. Yet you do it VERY casually.

So simply put I think you're just a guy who enjoys going to track and enjoys betting but really doesn't give two craps about the sport. Because you simply can't say you love the sport and throw that around casually. It's highly disrespectful of the people who work in the industry. It's literally the worse thing you can say about them.

You can say jockeys stink, trainers are awful, stewards are blind, executives are clueless, clockers are morons. But when you start throwing around horses are "SPIFFED" by jockeys and races are "FIXED" with ZERO proof its horrendous behavior.

And you're not a big enough person to admit your wrong.

Julien Coutin STIFFED Illumination Road at Emerald Downs.

Proof is in the video of his ride, proof is in the coincidentally MONSTROUS violations of the winner (there was no inquiry, no objections of the riders who were victims of the massive infractions in that race). Proof is in the video of the tiring leader trying to give Julien Couton an alibi by hammering HIS own horse into him in deep stretch.

I've seen and still see and hear a bunch of morons on track who scream stiff job all day as they select loser after loser.

I am NOT that guy. After I lose a race, I watch the replay 5 or 6 times (do that anyway, win or lose) pan and head on. I place my ego to the side, analyze the fractions/dynamics/pace set up etc. and see why I won or lost.

It's rare but not that rare where I see something where I think chicanery is involved.

Just a bit of feedback as to my merits SuperPickle.

Now, as to the Presque Isle race. I didn't sit here and say it 10000% was a stiff job. Meaning it was an ordained attempt to make sure the horse didn't win. It looked like one to me. Then when new info came about, info that really doesn't mean much to me (Walking off is not the same as being pulled up abruptly or being VANNED off), I said it could be a few scenarios.

Not man enough to admit when I'm wrong?

I don't think there was anyone else who touted louder than me that AP could lose the Belmont.....

I posted on here within seconds of him hitting the wire, saying he proved me wrong.

After the Haskell, I proactively came on here and said it was his most impressive race of the year and the first race that made me say a truly sincere WOW.

I have no ego, find people who do, to be repulsive.

I have a healthy competitive ego in the wagering aspect of this game. I want to win. Not really for the money but for the sheer satisfaction of it.

As to insulting jocks.....

Forget their feelings. They don't care about my feelings when they snatch $50,000 out of my pocket with a series of assinine decisions.

They don't care about my feelings when they, as SRU CORRECTLY pointed out, give STIFF rides and cost me a month or quarter or a year. (maybe you should check the true meaning of the phrase "stiff job").

Did I mean to insult the jockey from Presque Isle yesterday?

ABSOLUTELY. With a ride like that, HE SHOULD BE QUESTIONED, HIGHLIGHTED and INSULTED.

Did I mean to insult Ronney Betancourt for this STIFF JOB?

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/venezuelan-jockey-fined-1000-in-first-u-s-mount-for-failure-to-persevere/


YOU'RE DARN RIGHT I DID.

Again, I said it last night. That Presque Isle race confused the crap out of me. I don't care if it was an orchestrated stiff, a horse that was sore before the gate opened or a horse who became sore after the wire.

That jock had ZERO intention of ever riding that horse, ever.

Forget all else that happened for one moment...

Isn't the perfect word for that ride, a stiff ride?

He sat on there like a stiff the entire way. Not even a slight hand ride, encouragement of any kind.

Funny thing is, he knew how to hold the horse back at various points of the race.

Coincidental, right?

[JohnGalt1]

My first response to this. I did not play PID that day, but I have a few questions.

Could a handicapper have suspected the horse might've been unsound?

As stated here the horse won 7/10/15. Did it have a race or any work outs since then? If not, for me that's a possible sign of an unsound horse. And even it looked to be the most likely winner, I would not trust it's conditioning, and would either bet another horse or passed the race.

If it had a race or workouts since 7/10, then ignore this comment.

[EMD4ME]

Yeah but here lies where you are full of crap.

You profess love for the game but yet anytime you see something you don't understand you think the race is "fixed."

No offense but real industry people and real racetrackers laugh at people like you but you don't even understand what you're saying. The worst thing anyone can say about a jockey in this business is he "stiffed" a horse. It's like calling someone who works with kids a child molester. You simply don't do it unless you have the goods. Yet you do it VERY casually.

So simply put I think you're just a guy who enjoys going to track and enjoys betting but really doesn't give two craps about the sport. Because you simply can't say you love the sport and throw that around casually. It's highly disrespectful of the people who work in the industry. It's literally the worse thing you can say about them.

You can say jockeys stink, trainers are awful, stewards are blind, executives are clueless, clockers are morons. But when you start throwing around horses are "SPIFFED" by jockeys and races are "FIXED" with ZERO proof its horrendous behavior.

And you're not a big enough person to admit your wrong.

I want to be on the same page here, SuperPickle.

What exactly does "SPIFFED" mean?

I am not the best speller. I don't use spellcheck. But when I put something in parenthesis, I make sure it's accurate. Did you mean "Stiffed"?

Can you elaborate please on the following? When did I say the Presque Isle race FIXED. I never said or even insinuated it. I did say one of the options was he stiffed the horse. Before you ask.....Yes, it is still one of the options in my mind. One of 2 and at best 3 possibilities.

Finally, if jocks truly cared about being insulted, they should maybe care more about the 1 thing they are responsible for...Riding.

Even when Ramon got caught in a jackpot, I never ever even in my mind thought of cussing him. I understood he was trying. I saw all angles to how/why/where/what happened.

So, one can't say I'm biased or hate jockeys. I just don't like the performance of 99% of the current lot. There's nothing wrong with that.

Ask any hardcore player if they miss all the truly great jocks from Yesteryear. Ask the hardcore old timers how much better the old boys ran vs. these guys.

Jocks don't like it? Learn how to ride like the old boys did. Make less mistakes, be more prepared, MORE IMPORTANTLY do the simplest thing that is asked of you.....

RIDE THE HORSE. Do that one simple thing and one will never question your integrity.

One might call them names, or question their intelligence but those are 2 TOTALLY different things.

It's when jocks simply decide to NOT ride that the , according to you, UGLY stuff comes out from people like me.

This is the one game where the fan be a participant via wagering. Why is it o.k. that we as participants are subject to jockeys who are unethical and decide (for 1 reason or another) to not ride a horse?

Can you imagine if we all stopped betting tomorrow and ZERO dollars were wagered on the day? Do you think there would be concern/outrage/fear/resentment from the people in the game?

Darn right there would be.

It's the same on this side of the fence when we as participants are smacked directly in the testicles with a barbell.

[cj]

Listed work on July 30th.

This horses TimeformUS Speed Figures:

1st start: 72
2nd start: 79
3rd start: 70

[Stillriledup]

I want to be on the same page here, SuperPickle.

What exactly does "SPIFFED" mean?

I am not the best speller. I don't use spellcheck. But when I put something in parenthesis, I make sure it's accurate. Did you mean "Stiffed"?

Can you elaborate please on the following? When did I say the Presque Isle race FIXED. I never said or even insinuated it. I did say one of the options was he stiffed the horse. Before you ask.....Yes, it is still one of the options in my mind. One of 2 and at best 3 possibilities.

Finally, if jocks truly cared about being insulted, they should maybe care more about the 1 thing they are responsible for...Riding.

Even when Ramon got caught in a jackpot, I never ever even in my mind thought of cussing him. I understood he was trying. I saw all angles to how/why/where/what happened.

So, one can't say I'm biased or hate jockeys. I just don't like the performance of 99% of the current lot. There's nothing wrong with that.

Ask any hardcore player if they miss all the truly great jocks from Yesteryear. Ask the hardcore old timers how much better the old boys ran vs. these guys.

Jocks don't like it? Learn how to ride like the old boys did. Make less mistakes, be more prepared, MORE IMPORTANTLY do the simplest thing that is asked of you.....

RIDE THE HORSE. Do that one simple thing and one will never question your integrity.

One might call them names, or question their intelligence but those are 2 TOTALLY different things.

It's when jocks simply decide to NOT ride that the , according to you, UGLY stuff comes out from people like me.

This is the one game where the fan be a participant via wagering. Why is it o.k. that we as participants are subject to jockeys who are unethical and decide (for 1 reason or another) to not ride a horse?

Can you imagine if we all stopped betting tomorrow and ZERO dollars were wagered on the day? Do you think there would be concern/outrage/fear/resentment from the people in the game?

Darn right there would be.

It's the same on this side of the fence when we as participants are smacked directly in the testicles with a barbell.

Exactly, and all this could have been avoided if the jock would have urged the horse. If he's lame, pull him up, if you don't pull him up I'm expecting a vigorous ride to the line.

[EMD4ME]

Exactly, and all this could have been avoided if the jock would have urged the horse. If he's lame, pull him up, if you don't pull him up I'm expecting a vigorous ride to the line.

It's not like you and I are complaining because he stopped riding and didn't ride to the line.

He never STARTED riding. That's what irks me. Yes, I get it, he's protecting a crippled horse (that's what many poster's response will be).

If he truly was protecting the horse, he should've had the vet scratch him at the gate.

If he didn't want to be a scapegoat, throw a hundred to the outrider to notify the vet.

[whodoyoulike]

Wasn't very smooth.

He had absolutely no reason to take hold of the reigns in the shadow of the wire:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/290xag8.jpg

He had already assured he would not win, once he didn't ride the horse mid-stretch when he was moving to the lead between rivals:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2qdapo8.jpg

Got to sharpen those fundamentals up if you want to escape criticism from bettors in this age of social media.


Thanks to those who provided responses to my previous post. I appreciated them.

But, how did Robert Fisher get these photos?

[EMD4ME]

I'm just guessing, screen shots off the replay?

[Stillriledup]

Thanks to those who provided responses to my previous post. I appreciated them.

But, how did Robert Fisher get these photos?

If you have a ipad you can press the home button and some other button at the same time and it snaps a pic of what's on your screen and goes right into your photo bin.

[garyscpa]

Do you know what 'stiffed' means? It's when a jockey is stiff, which this jockey was, he was barely moving, thus, he was 'stiff' looking in the saddle.

Now, does it mean there was some elaborate plan to be off the board on purpose? Who's to say, it would take more investigation to uncover what really went on.

As far as 'zero proof' goes I'd say there's pretty strong proof that this rider didnt urge the horse as hard as he possibly could, so as far as proof goes, I think you need proof that this was NOT a boat race. This was an outlier as most jocks urge their mounts thru the wire, so to me, The "proof" is the lack of aggressive urging, so the jock is at least guilty of not trying as hard as he could.

Nobody knows if this was a fixed race or not without a much more thorough investigation, you're defending this jock like you have proof this was not a setup.

What proof do you have?

Any link to prove this is what "stiffed" means? Because I think you're wrong.

[Stillriledup]

Any link to prove this is what "stiffed" means? Because I think you're wrong.

If you think I'm wrong, provide a link proving me wrong. I posted my opinion, I don't need to research my opinion so I can convince you, if you think I'm wrong you can look for yourself.

[iamt]

https://www.google.com.au/#q=stiffed

[whodoyoulike]

If you have a ipad you can press the home button and some other button at the same time and it snaps a pic of what's on your screen and goes right into your photo bin.

Thanks to both you and Emd4me. I don't own an Ipad and I was unaware of the capabilities of these new confounded gadgets.

[Stoleitbreezing]

I just watched the replay a few times and the jockey clearly stiffed this horse bad! The horse basically drags the jockey to the lead in deep stretch, he has the red sea part and instead of splitting them with any conviction he's basically standing up on the horse and not encouraging him at all. To those who say the horse was lame, or that the chart caller said the horse went back lame. Then why did the jockey briefly "flag" the horse right-handed just before the wire? If the horse felt "wrong" underneath then why does the jockey need to give the token "flagging" when all was lost at that point. Why wouldn't he just pull the horse up in the stretch?

[saddle sore]

MY GOD......We have DRAMA......The conspiracy theory continues.....:lol:

[EMD4ME]

Thanks to both you and Emd4me. I don't own an Ipad and I was unaware of the capabilities of these new confounded gadgets.

You're so much better off!!!

I miss the good ole days.

[saddle sore]

I just watched the replay a few times and the jockey clearly stiffed this horse bad! The horse basically drags the jockey to the lead in deep stretch, he has the red sea part and instead of splitting them with any conviction he's basically standing up on the horse and not encouraging him at all. To those who say the horse was lame, or that the chart caller said the horse went back lame. Then why did the jockey briefly "flag" the horse right-handed just before the wire? If the horse felt "wrong" underneath then why does the jockey need to give the token "flagging" when all was lost at that point. Why wouldn't he just pull the horse up in the stretch?............Next will pop up the Kennedy Zapruder film....The jockey's head leaned back and forward...."back and forward"....This concludes there might of been another shooter over on the grassy knoll....:lol:

[Track Phantom]

............Next will pop up the Kennedy Zapruder film....The jockey's head leaned back and forward...."back and forward"....This concludes there might of been another shooter over on the grassy knoll....:lol:

You can certainly have the opinion that nothing sinister was going on here but to shun it off like it is unworthy of discussion is silly. Anyone can tell the horse (the 3-2 favorite, mind you) was in a perfect position to win and the rider chose not to ask the horse the entire length of the stretch.

As a horseplayer, you don't think that deserves an explanation? You'd be fine with a rider being so nonchalant on your horse without knowing why? To belittle those who want to know why this happened is condescending and unnecessary and smells of some other agenda.

[EMD4ME]

You can certainly have the opinion that nothing sinister was going on here but to shun it off like it is unworthy of discussion is silly. Anyone can tell the horse (the 3-2 favorite, mind you) was in a perfect position to win and the rider chose not to ask the horse the entire length of the stretch.

As a horseplayer, you don't think that deserves an explanation? You'd be fine with a rider being so nonchalant on your horse without knowing why? To belittle those who want to know why this happened is condescending and unnecessary and smells of some other agenda.

Well put Valento.

Ditto :ThmbUp:

[garyscpa]

So is 46.52 seconds a pretty fast pace for a 6 1/2 furlong $7,500 claimer race at PID? The 3 finished ahead of all the early speed.

[Tom]

............Next will pop up the Kennedy Zapruder film....The jockey's head leaned back and forward...."back and forward"....This concludes there might of been another shooter over on the grassy knoll....:lol:

So you don't think that the people who bet this race and finance the game are entitled to question ride they think are questionable? Interesting. Because NO ONE on the track ever does anything that is not 100% on the up and up, right?

[chenoa]

Looks a little similar to the one David Flores gave in Singapore months back, look what happened there. This ride looks very bad, should have pulled up or got stuck in traffic.

Is it because there are so many tracks in the U.S. and this won't get much attention that it is swept under the rug. As previously stated if this happened at Sha Tin/Happy Valley he would be on the next plane out.

[Stoleitbreezing]

............Next will pop up the Kennedy Zapruder film....The jockey's head leaned back and forward...."back and forward"....This concludes there might of been another shooter over on the grassy knoll....:lol:

There is no conspiracy theory here. Several others have also viewed the race and are of the same opinion as me. There is an obvious lack of effort being shown here by the jockey. I think many of us have thoughts of nefarious behavior as the horse and the race circumstances were such that he had no reason to stop ridding the horse.

[garyscpa]

There is no conspiracy theory here. Several others have also viewed the race and are of the same opinion as me. There is an obvious lack of effort being shown here by the jockey. I think many of us have thoughts of nefarious behavior as the horse and the race circumstances were such that he had no reason to stop ridding the horse.

So you think he acted alone?

[senortout]

All due respect. We've been discussing a nine year old with three lifetime starts, all this year. Now, breaking the mdn. in only the second career start ain't too shabby, correct? Again, this happened as an 'entire' horse, if I have my facts straight? Well then a few questions come to my mind, how about yours....why geld after a successful race? 2. how long do you intend to race the horse? 3. Is it just possible, having decided to geld at this late stage and all...is it just possible the animal was sore from the act of gelding(cutting) itself? Also, being curious, I watched the replay of the last two races. When he won, rather nicely, he was never hit with the whip, only hand-ridden. Again, in the recent race, hand ridden, while holding 3rd. In fairness, he was given time to recover from his last race, but maybe all he really needed was time to recover from his 'last operation' I know I had a period of recovery much longer than this horse was given, following my last operation! Finally, my last comments on the situation...why are horsplayers, in general, so quick to blame?

[saddle sore]

You can certainly have the opinion that nothing sinister was going on here but to shun it off like it is unworthy of discussion is silly. Anyone can tell the horse (the 3-2 favorite, mind you) was in a perfect position to win and the rider chose not to ask the horse the entire length of the stretch.

As a horseplayer, you don't think that deserves an explanation? You'd be fine with a rider being so nonchalant on your horse without knowing why? To belittle those who want to know why this happened is condescending and unnecessary and smells of some other agenda......When a ballplayer doesn't hustle he usually gets chewed out by the manager. Maybe the trainer chewed out the jockey.....:lol:....Anyway...the horse came up lame after the fact. Now you don't have to limp to be lame. Horse could of had bone spurs. There's type A and type B. Type A is the kind you limp...Type B is the kind you don't limp. I don't know....The jockey is around horses more then we are...maybe he sense something was wrong. Believe it or not some jockey's actually care about the animal's welfare...even if its a 7500 claimer. I suggest you go find some kind of racing board and email them nicely about the incident. With our technology you can show them what you mean. Who knows...maybe they will email you back....And then maybe we could FINALLY get some SLEEP again....:lol:

[camourous]

All due respect. We've been discussing a nine year old with three lifetime starts, all this year. Now, breaking the mdn. in only the second career start ain't too shabby, correct? Again, this happened as an 'entire' horse, if I have my facts straight? Well then a few questions come to my mind, how about yours....why geld after a successful race? 2. how long do you intend to race the horse? 3. Is it just possible, having decided to geld at this late stage and all...is it just possible the animal was sore from the act of gelding(cutting) itself? Also, being curious, I watched the replay of the last two races. When he won, rather nicely, he was never hit with the whip, only hand-ridden. Again, in the recent race, hand ridden, while holding 3rd. In fairness, he was given time to recover from his last race, but maybe all he really needed was time to recover from his 'last operation' I know I had a period of recovery much longer than this horse was given, following my last operation! Finally, my last comments on the situation...why are horsplayers, in general, so quick to blame?


You can't even say he was hand ridden in this race. He wasn't ridden to win at all.

[Stoleitbreezing]

As I said in my earlier post the only encouragement (if you call it that) is when the jockey briefly "flagged" the horse ride-handed a few yards from the wire. The horse was not hand-ridden at all.

[EMD4ME]

All due respect. We've been discussing a nine year old with three lifetime starts, all this year. Now, breaking the mdn. in only the second career start ain't too shabby, correct? Again, this happened as an 'entire' horse, if I have my facts straight? Well then a few questions come to my mind, how about yours....why geld after a successful race? 2. how long do you intend to race the horse? 3. Is it just possible, having decided to geld at this late stage and all...is it just possible the animal was sore from the act of gelding(cutting) itself? Also, being curious, I watched the replay of the last two races. When he won, rather nicely, he was never hit with the whip, only hand-ridden. Again, in the recent race, hand ridden, while holding 3rd. In fairness, he was given time to recover from his last race, but maybe all he really needed was time to recover from his 'last operation' I know I had a period of recovery much longer than this horse was given, following my last operation! Finally, my last comments on the situation...why are horsplayers, in general, so quick to blame?

Just because the pp's say G doesn't mean he is a new Gelding.

Why are we so quick to blame? Because there are a lot of people to blame in this game for questionable behavior.

It's one thing to pick on the QB for making a stupid decision. That's normal. It's part of the game.

I pick on their ethics when their behavior causes valid ethical concerns.

[Tom]

Nice know some "insiders" in this game are such total jerks.

[thaskalos]

This was as blatant a non-effort as one is ever likely to see. Never during the race does the jockey display the tell-tale signs that something was somehow "wrong" with the horse...and, as someone already so astutely mentioned, the jockey even appears to "flag" the horse right on the shadow of the wire. If we, as horseplayers, can't agree when we see something as obvious as this...then what hope can there be for us in this game? How can we ever expect things to get better?

[senortout]

You're relating this instance at Presque Isles more in the nature of the Tom Brady incident in football. Just so I'm clear on that? Or wait, you may as well tell me your opinion onthat as well then. I must add that a few of the fans on here are even getting mixed up on what a hand ride means...to me, it means 'the horse is doing his very best, I have put him in a position to win, and, should he not, he will live to race another day'. Another interpretation 'far out in left field' ...he has been tested and found to react unfavorably to the whip. Go ahead critics had at me.

Just because the pp's say G doesn't mean he is a new Gelding.

Why are we so quick to blame? Because there are a lot of people to blame in this game for questionable behavior.

It's one thing to pick on the QB for making a stupid decision. That's normal. It's part of the game.

I pick on their ethics when their behavior causes valid ethical concerns.

[Rollingpk3]

So is 46.52 seconds a pretty fast pace for a 6 1/2 furlong $7,500 claimer race at PID? The 3 finished ahead of all the early speed.

same level nw 2l earlier in the card had a horse go wire to wire with faster fractions. alw race earlier in the card went 44 and change for the half. 3 sat a perfect trip in hand behind dueling inferior animals.

[Stillriledup]

All due respect. We've been discussing a nine year old with three lifetime starts, all this year. Now, breaking the mdn. in only the second career start ain't too shabby, correct? Again, this happened as an 'entire' horse, if I have my facts straight? Well then a few questions come to my mind, how about yours....why geld after a successful race? 2. how long do you intend to race the horse? 3. Is it just possible, having decided to geld at this late stage and all...is it just possible the animal was sore from the act of gelding(cutting) itself? Also, being curious, I watched the replay of the last two races. When he won, rather nicely, he was never hit with the whip, only hand-ridden. Again, in the recent race, hand ridden, while holding 3rd. In fairness, he was given time to recover from his last race, but maybe all he really needed was time to recover from his 'last operation' I know I had a period of recovery much longer than this horse was given, following my last operation! Finally, my last comments on the situation...why are horsplayers, in general, so quick to blame?

But what if you watched the race without having the luxury of PPs? It doesn't matter if the horse is Secretariat or Zippy Chippy, ride to the wire.

Why do people constantly think this is too much to ask?

[Stillriledup]

This was as blatant a non-effort as one is ever likely to see. Never during the race does the jockey display the tell-tale signs that something was somehow "wrong" with the horse...and, as someone already so astutely mentioned, the jockey even appears to "flag" the horse right on the shadow of the wire. If we, as horseplayers, can't agree when we see something as obvious as this...then what hope can there be for us in this game? How can we ever expect things to get better?

Jocks are Teflon, they can do whatever they want and always explain away their lack of effort and judges buy it. As bettors we just have to take what we get and hope they don't ride in this manner more.

[thaskalos]

You're relating this instance at Presque Isles more in the nature of the Tom Brady incident in football. Just so I'm clear on that? Or wait, you may as well tell me your opinion onthat as well then. I must add that a few of the fans on here are even getting mixed up on what a hand ride means...to me, it means 'the horse is doing his very best, I have put him in a position to win, and, should he not, he will live to race another day'. Another interpretation 'far out in left field' ...he has been tested and found to react unfavorably to the whip. Go ahead critics had at me.

Do you see the jockey of Rouge Sur La Tete giving his horse a "hand ride" at any point in the race? Do the jockey's hands ever move forward, by even an INCH? The horse was running entirely under his own power...and put himself in a position to win IN SPITE of the jockey. The jockey not only wasn't a help...he was a HINDERANCE!

[Stoleitbreezing]

Do you see the jockey of Rouge Sur La Tete giving his horse a "hand ride" at any point in the race? Do the jockey's hands ever move forward, by even an INCH? The horse was running entirely under his own power...and put himself in a position to win IN SPITE of the jockey. The jockey not only wasn't a help...he was a HINDERANCE!

I agree entirely. As I said before this horse basically dragged himself to the lead, with this jock just standing up on him. He probably was upset the horse finished 3rd despite him.

[EMD4ME]

I agree entirely. As I said before this horse basically dragged himself to the lead, with this jock just standing up on him. He probably was upset the horse finished 3rd despite him.

I agree.....He did look to try and blow third as well.

[JohnGalt1]

Listed work on July 30th.

This horses TimeformUS Speed Figures:

1st start: 72
2nd start: 79
3rd start: 70

If the work out you listed was the most recent, that was 19 days before the race, the horse had fitness issues, in my opinion.

I'm not surprised by the outcome and don't hold the jockey responsible without other evidence showing that the horse was racing fit.

[saddle sore]

WOW.....Presque Isle downs has never been so popular. We keep this up we might make the newspapers.......Horse patrons ENRAGED over lack of ride by jockey. Asking to ban Presque Isle races altogether...Meanwhile.....Jockey Jose Garcia was last seen in conference with jockey Angel Suarez on how jockey's should conduct themselves when not on duty....:rolleyes:

[EMD4ME]

You're relating this instance at Presque Isles more in the nature of the Tom Brady incident in football. Just so I'm clear on that? Or wait, you may as well tell me your opinion onthat as well then. I must add that a few of the fans on here are even getting mixed up on what a hand ride means...to me, it means 'the horse is doing his very best, I have put him in a position to win, and, should he not, he will live to race another day'. Another interpretation 'far out in left field' ...he has been tested and found to react unfavorably to the whip. Go ahead critics had at me.

No. I have zero opinion on Tom Brady, don't care about Football.

Garcia did not hand ride this horse. He didn't ride the horse at all. If his hands rocked back and forth agressively, pushing his mount in unison with the horse's stride, then we can call it a hand ride. His hands did not move an inch...No , wait yes they did. They moved a couple of inches back every so often to unsure he held the horse back just enough.

[EMD4ME]

Jocks are Teflon, they can do whatever they want and always explain away their lack of effort and judges buy it. As bettors we just have to take what we get and hope they don't ride in this manner more.

Not if your name is Channing Hill and I get my chance at you in the Aqueduct Paddock ;)

[EMD4ME]

But what if you watched the race without having the luxury of PPs? It doesn't matter if the horse is Secretariat or Zippy Chippy, ride to the wire.

Why do people constantly think this is too much to ask?

Probably for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) They don't really wager on this game with real money.

2) They might be some sort of insider who is too emotionally attached to "insert their role here".

To all the defenders of this jock/ride on here:

If you were alive for $200,000 and this was the closing leg of the ticket and you had this horse singled, WHAT WOULD YOUR REACTION BE?

I dare ONE OF THE DEFENDERS TO ANSWER THAT like a man, with no BS.

[Stillriledup]

Probably for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) They don't really wager on this game with real money.

2) They might be some sort of insider who is too emotionally attached to "insert their role here".

To all the defenders of this jock/ride on here:

If you were alive for $200,000 and this was the closing leg of the ticket and you had this horse singled, WHAT WOULD YOUR REACTION BE?

I dare ONE OF THE DEFENDERS TO ANSWER THAT like a man, with no BS.

Or, how about this one.

If that jocks life depended on winning, would you have gotten the same "look" in deep stretch?

[thaskalos]

Any notion that Garcia was aware of anything being "wrong" with the horse during the race has to be disspelled by the fact that he taps the horse lightly right-handed with the whip nearing the wire...even as he is restraining the horse with his left hand.

[Stillriledup]

Any notion that Garcia was aware of anything being "wrong" with the horse during the race has to be disspelled by the fact that he taps the horse lightly right-handed with the whip nearing the wire...even as he is restraining the horse with his left hand.

But if he tells the judges the horse felt funny, they're going to let him skate even though the evidence you present is on tape and would preclude him from being able to use the "felt funny" excuse.

[EMD4ME]

Any notion that Garcia was aware of anything being "wrong" with the horse during the race has to be disspelled by the fact that he taps the horse lightly right-handed with the whip nearing the wire...even as he is restraining the horse with his left hand.

Very common hold tactic...

Fake whip with the right hand (for the camera), pull down on horse with left hand.

Very astute of you Thaskalos. That's why I always love to see a powerful pump with the right hand and a loud popping left handed whip on my horses.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Any notion that Garcia was aware of anything being "wrong" with the horse during the race has to be disspelled by the fact that he taps the horse lightly right-handed with the whip nearing the wire...even as he is restraining the horse with his left hand.

I saw this on the replay and had to rewind it several times. I think they call it "flagging" where the jock is supposed to swipe the whip around the horses eyes so they can see it, while not actually striking the horse. This "token flagging" was enough for me to believe he just did for the stewards and infield photographer.

[thaskalos]

What would the winning percentage of these favorites be...if their jockeys were all really trying to win the race?

[Tom]

Probably best to avoid crappy little tracks like PID.....where the people make it minor league.

[thaskalos]

Probably best to avoid crappy little tracks like PID.....where the people make it minor league.
Unfortunately...these corrupt "crappy little tracks" are also the ones who are the most financially sound...because they are supported by thriving casino businesses. So...you can never get rid of them.

[saddle sore]

Okay....I want everyone to go to there window's....That's right.....Now open the window and yell out....I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE......Feel better now...:)

[Track Phantom]

Okay....I want everyone to go to there window's....That's right.....Now open the window and yell out....I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE......Feel better now...:)

Don't know why it bugs me but I feel any adult with a modicum of intelligence doesn't make this mistake. Sorry Saddle Sore, hard for me to take you seriously.

[VeryOldMan]

This "token flagging" was enough for me to believe he just did for the stewards and infield photographer.
This is the part that most bothered me.

It was clear there was an utter lack of urging through the stretch. Not even a mild hand ride - the horse was never asked for anything.

But we are talking about a 9 year old horse who was shown in the chart as returning lame. So I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that the horse was deliberately stiffed. Jockey could have been trying to preserve himself and the horse if he felt the underlying "wheels" were suspect.

But if the jockey was simply trying to preserve the horse, what was the point of that phantom action/whipping?

[EMD4ME]

This is the part that most bothered me.

It was clear there was an utter lack of urging through the stretch. Not even a mild hand ride - the horse was never asked for anything.

But we are talking about a 9 year old horse who was shown in the chart as returning lame. So I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that the horse was deliberately stiffed. Jockey could have been trying to preserve himself and the horse if he felt the underlying "wheels" were suspect.

But if the jockey was simply trying to preserve the horse, what was the point of that phantom action/whipping?


I'll be blunt and just say it...

Because just like in wrestling, it's all part of the show. Make it look good.

I hate to go to a boxing fight and a WWE match breaks out.

Same thing in horse racing....

I don't care WHY anymore. I only care about WHAT happened. So, because of WHAT happened, it's another reason I am repulsed. I don't CARE that it happened at PID instead of Delmar or SAR, IT HAPPENED.

Are we that desensitized as horseplayers, that we accept this crap because it's PID????

I'm not.

Veryoldman, this wasn't directed at you sir. :)

It's for the defenders of this behavior.

[whodoyoulike]

All due respect. We've been discussing a nine year old with three lifetime starts, all this year. Now, breaking the mdn. in only the second career start ain't too shabby, correct? Again, this happened as an 'entire' horse, if I have my facts straight? Well then a few questions come to my mind, how about yours....why geld after a successful race? 2. how long do you intend to race the horse? ...


This was also sort of my thoughts when I saw the first time gelded .... the owners should have let him keep his ....... (you know).

[EMD4ME]

This was also sort of my thoughts when I saw the first time gelded .... the owners should have let him keep his ....... (you know).

Just because the DRF or other publications say "G" doesn't mean the horse was gelded after his last start.

The "G" signifies that at some point he was Gelded or in other words that it has at some point been reported that he is a Gelding.

In other words, date of Gelding, unknown.

[whodoyoulike]

Just because the pp's say G doesn't mean he is a new Gelding. ...
I pick on their ethics when their behavior causes valid ethical concerns.

I saw the Bris pp's with the circled g which i thought was a new feature recently provided by Equibase this year to indicate a first time gelded since last race.

[saddle sore]

Don't know why it bugs me but I feel any adult with a modicum of intelligence doesn't make this mistake. Sorry Saddle Sore, hard for me to take you seriously....Valento you gotta look at my point of view. I didn't lose any money on the race so i can't take this badly. If it doesn't effect me then i act blase. Sorry about that....Now from the race itself you can't prove that a jockey gave a non ride once that word lame comes out after the fact...It won't stick......Now if you feel different about it i suggested earlier to email some kind of racing board or better yet start a petition and have people here sign it and get it to the right people. I'm sure PACE could help you out there....Coming here and venting your frustrations out won't solve anything....It's time for you to be pro active if you want to start the movement of change....Now the people here respect and believe in you and will probably follow you......So be the catalyst for this cause.............Good luck to you.......

[Stillriledup]

...Valento you gotta look at my point of view. I didn't lose any money on the race so i can't take this badly. If it doesn't effect me then i act blase. Sorry about that....Now from the race itself you can't prove that a jockey gave a non ride once that word lame comes out after the fact...It won't stick......Now if you feel different about it i suggested earlier to email some kind of racing board or better yet start a petition and have people here sign it and get it to the right people. I'm sure PACE could help you out there....Coming here and venting your frustrations out won't solve anything....It's time for you to be pro active if you want to start the movement of change....Now the people here respect and believe in you and will probably follow you......So be the catalyst for this cause.............Good luck to you.......

Ok, bit of an improved effort from you sore man, we knew you had it in you! As far as it not affecting you, it will affect you if you bet races in the future, think big picture.

Plenty of horses come back lame, yet, they're ridden hard to the wire, to me and other reasonable people, if the horse isn't pulled up, I expect at least a mild hand ride to the wire.

[Stoleitbreezing]

Ok, bit of an improved effort from you sore man, we knew you had it in you! As far as it not affecting you, it will affect you if you bet races in the future, think big picture.

Plenty of horses come back lame, yet, they're ridden hard to the wire, to me and other reasonable people, if the horse isn't pulled up, I expect at least a mild hand ride to the wire.

If you bet on the race, a horseplayer, or just a horse racing fan the non effort by the jockey should at the very least bother you as it undermines the integrity of the game and it calls into question what other elements in play are not authentic.

I agree with SRU on his last point. If the horse is in contention, a mild hand ride at the very least should be expected. Had the horse broke poorly, or was in contention then dropped back suddenly, I and other horseplayers would not question the riding tactics of the jockey.

Those scenarios didn't happen in this case. We saw a horse break clean, run forwardly under his own power, split horses under his own volition take the lead late, all while his jockey pulled the reins and stood up on him.

If the intention by his connections or the jockey was to not encourage the horse then they should've scratched the horse and gave him an extra workout. workouts they can grab this horse all they want. Don't undermine the sport or the horseplayers that support it with a non effort ride.

[saddle sore]

If you bet on the race, a horseplayer, or just a horse racing fan the non effort by the jockey should at the very least bother you as it undermines the integrity of the game and it calls into question what other elements in play are not authentic.

I agree with SRU on his last point. If the horse is in contention, a mild hand ride at the very least should be expected. Had the horse broke poorly, or was in contention then dropped back suddenly, I and other horseplayers would not question the riding tactics of the jockey.

Those scenarios didn't happen in this case. We saw a horse break clean, run forwardly under his own power, split horses under his own volition take the lead late, all while his jockey pulled the reins and stood up on him.

If the intention by his connections or the jockey was to not encourage the horse then they should've scratched the horse and gave him an extra workout. workouts they can grab this horse all they want. Don't undermine the sport or the horseplayers that support it with a non effort ride.......Ya know you guys are trying to be argumentative when you don't even have an argument. Horse comes up lame near the end of the race....What exactly does a jockey to do.....Pull the reins hard and yell out WHOA NELLY and put everybody behind him in harm's way or quietly finish the race...When the word lame comes up its a non issue....I guess the real question is whether you believe the horse went lamed near the end....And remember a horse doesn't need to limp to be declared lame....Plus i haven't heard social media outside of here has put a bounty on Jose Garcia's head...So do you really believe the horse went lame?...:bang:

[Track Phantom]

If the industry needs people like us betting on their product on non-important weekdays with cheap claimers, they need to treat those events no differently than a big stakes race. Oversight, transparency and just overall pool integrity protection should be at the same level for every race. It has to be.

I'm not as concerned with the fact that the horse was not asked in the race as the fact that it appears PID stewards didn't see it, never acknowledged it and don't see it as an issue. I may be wrong on this. Maybe they did deal with the rider but it needs to be transparent so we know they are taking these things seriously.

Saying it a different way, imagine if a slots player sat down at a machine, put their money in, spun the wheel and it didn't "roll" but just sat "idle" and took their money. Don't think the slot customer base would be all that big if that happened with any regularity and the overseers didn't correct it.

[bello]

If the industry needs people like us betting on their product on non-important weekdays with cheap claimers, they need to treat those events no differently than a big stakes race. Oversight, transparency and just overall pool integrity protection should be at the same level for every race. It has to be.

I'm not as concerned with the fact that the horse was not asked in the race as the fact that it appears PID stewards didn't see it, never acknowledged it and don't see it as an issue. I may be wrong on this. Maybe they did deal with the rider but it needs to be transparent so we know they are taking these things seriously.

Saying it a different way, imagine if a slots player sat down at a machine, put their money in, spun the wheel and it didn't "roll" but just sat "idle" and took their money. Don't think the slot customer base would be all that big if that happened with any regularity and the overseers didn't correct it.

The industry does not need you to bet the cheap weekday claimers. They likely wish you would go away completely so they could shut down the horse racing and turn the :racino: into a casino. That is the entire problem with the false economy of the racino. You think PID is bad, spend a night at Pocono Downs...the home of every race fiixer and juicer that is still alive. On second thought, I think a lot of you guys making such a fuss over a single race at a bush league track should never ever watch or bet on harness races. I am concerned about your health.