4th Amendment fails to protect man from losing $167K

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Don't squirrel away that cash in your RV......

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/feds-will-fight-keep-167000-taken-driver-northern-nevada


Federal prosecutors are appealing a judge's order to return $167,000 seized from a motor home on a Nevada highway following a drug search.

Pulled over for driving slow, declined a search, then was pulled over a second time where a drug dog "alerted" on his vehicle, in spite of the fact no drugs were found.

Civil forfeiture laws allow the government to seize funds from suspected criminals without charging them with a crime.

In the Elko case, Gorman was neither charged nor even cited for a traffic violation.

And yet, the Feds won't give him his money back. Hmmmm. I hope there's more to this story from the Fed's point of view.....

[Dave Schwartz]

This happened a couple of years ago in rural NV. It has been rumored that the police like the idea of finding cash because it provides "bonuses" and "salary increases" to local law enforcement. (I understand the feds pay a "finder's fee" to local law enforcement.)

This is not the only guy who has had cash confiscated.

One guy was quoted in our local newspaper as saying that the police in that neck of the woods target people driving expensive cars and then turn into "highwaymen."

He also said that sometimes he travels with large amounts of cash in order to facilitate legal business deals. Guess he needs to learn to fly everywhere.

I guess the police had admitted that some people who they've confiscated money from just don't make a fuss. Then, after some period of time, they just keep the money.

[Tom]

This whole seizure stuff is BS.
There is no due process of law.

This what the Nazis did, for God's sake.
What's next, make the offender wear a Star of David and a JUDEN sign?

[Clocker]

The IRS has been doing the same thing to small store owners who do a lot of cash business and routinely deposit it in the bank every day or two. They accusing the owners of "structuring", making regular deposits of under $10K to avoid IRS requirements for bank reports of large cash deposits.

When federal agents stormed into Lyndon McLellan's North Carolina convenience store last October without warning and accused him of trying to put one over on the government, the small business owner wasn't sure what was happening.

"They asked me if I knew what 'structuring' was and then they showed me some cash deposits I made in a 24-hour period," he told FoxNews.com.

The IRS agents apparently were suspicious because of deposits McLellan had made of just under $10,000. Banks are required to report transactions over $10,000; making multiple deposits of less than $10,000 to evade that requirement is known as "structuring."


Under this pretense, enforcement agents accused McLellan of the con and seized all $107,000 from his bank account.

McLellan is one of many business owners who have been caught up in a controversial federal practice known as civil forfeiture. Under this policy, federal agents have been able to seize the property and bank accounts of anyone they suspect of having criminal ties. The burden of proof falls on the owner even if no charges are filed.



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/12/nc-store-owner-on-hook-for-107000-with-irs-over-structuring-laws/

[Robert Fischer]

The technology is ahead of the law.

So people who trigger "alerts" on various intelligence are being hit even if they don't break the traditional law.

Usually informants are used, where another person is told what to say, and to reveal incriminating things that the illegal surveillance really found.

I don't think the RV guy was a saint by any means... I just think you should have to catch 'em by the rules. Otherwise it invites a decrease in privacy to us all.

[classhandicapper]

I that kind of thing ever happened to me, you wouldn't see me posting here anymore because I'd be too busy creating a long term plan for overthrowing the government.

[TJDave]

I don't think the RV guy was a saint by any means...

:lol:

The dog probably hit based on residue on the cash. 5-10k maybe, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a reason to be holding $167,000.

[Tom]

Gee, I thought this was The United States, where one doesn't have to have a reason to hold any amount of cash. And if the government suspects something, the burden of proof is on them.

Class, why wait?

[davew]

:lol:

The dog probably hit based on residue on the cash. 5-10k maybe, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a reason to be holding $167,000.

a couple of poker players heading back to CA after a tournament win got their cash 'confiscated' as well. I think it is stillin courts, but they will get some back, minus legal fees.

[TJDave]

a couple of poker players heading back to CA after a tournament win got their cash 'confiscated' as well. I think it is stillin courts, but they will get some back, minus legal fees.

I'll bet they had signers to back it up.

[Dave Schwartz]

a couple of poker players heading back to CA after a tournament win got their cash 'confiscated' as well. I think it is stillin courts, but they will get some back, minus legal fees.

And that's just wrong. Just like in the OP's article. The guy has spent $153k to get back his $167k. How wrong is this?

IMHO, he should sue the sheriff personally for abuse of power to get his money back and damages.

Seriously, as much as I dislike the ACLU, where are they at a time like this?

[TJDave]

And that's just wrong. Just like in the OP's article. The guy has spent $153k to get back his $167k. How wrong is this?

IMHO, he should sue the sheriff personally for abuse of power to get his money back and damages.

Seriously, as much as I dislike the ACLU, where are they at a time like this?

The judge ruled he could sue for fees and costs so he'll probably get that back, as well.

[Dave Schwartz]

But why should he have to?

[Tom]

I would sure the dipstick judge as well.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Civil forfeiture has become a farce and a primary source of revenue raising for many, many jurisdictions. Get snagged in a drug corridor for some minor or non-existent violation, get threatened, get released without charge if you turn over your assets. You don't have to be a drug dealer or user, just some schmo without the resources or will to defend yourself. Spend some time on google reviewing some of these cases and you can see just how little your fourth amendment rights really mean anymore.

[Clocker]

Big Brother does not like cash. Cash does not leave a paper trail, and it is difficult to tax.

I was quite surprised recently to learn that Louisiana had passed a law banning the use of cash for buying and selling used goods, and that Bobby Jindal had signed the bill. The only exception is for pawn shops, which have to keep detailed records anyway.

Many on the federal level would like to follow suit.

[classhandicapper]

Class, why wait?

I'm testing my new class figures these days and I don't want to slow my momentum over some corrupt incompetent government unless they give me good reason. :lol:

[Tom]

Big Brother does not like cash. Cash does not leave a paper trail, and it is difficult to tax.

I was quite surprised recently to learn that Louisiana had passed a law banning the use of cash for buying and selling used goods, and that Bobby Jindal had signed the bill. The only exception is for pawn shops, which have to keep detailed records anyway.

Many on the federal level would like to follow suit.

Wherever there is a nickel, the government is spending dollars to get their hands on it. Jindal just got flushed down my toilet. I'd like to see his papers.

Hey, where is the paper trail for the millions Hillary got from our enemies?
You know the money she got for selling state secrets to them?

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Wherever there is a nickel, the government is spending dollars to get their hands on it. Jindal just got flushed down my toilet. I'd like to see his papers.

Hey, where is the paper trail for the millions Hillary got from our enemies?
You know the money she got for selling state secrets to them?

The banksters and politicians are better equipped to cover their tracks, and even when the trail is uncovered, their PR machines kick in and smooth it over. Like when Hillary made $100K playing the cattle futures.

The war on cash continues, but that would dry up the revenue flow for the Highway Robber cops. The guy in the RV might not be a saint, but the roads out west are full of RVs where people are hauling all their worldly possessions, and I'm sure that sometimes includes large stashes of cash.

An illegal search, an illegal seizure, and "guilty until proven innocent". And the Feds backing up the local cops. Scary.

[thaskalos]

Big Brother does not like cash. Cash does not leave a paper trail, and it is difficult to tax.

I was quite surprised recently to learn that Louisiana had passed a law banning the use of cash for buying and selling used goods, and that Bobby Jindal had signed the bill. The only exception is for pawn shops, which have to keep detailed records anyway.

Many on the federal level would like to follow suit.
My mother (RIP) would bombard me with stories about the "anti-Christ"; about how he would rise to power in this world...and how he would insist that a barcode or a computer chip be surgically attached to each one of us...under the guise that this is supposedly for our own good. Kinda like how we now implant computer chips into our dogs...for their own good in the event that they get lost. Those of us who objected would be ostracized and eventually banished from society, and be forced to live as the lepers did in the Middle Ages...she would tell me.

I used to inwardly laugh at my mother when she talked like this; I wanted to tell her how ridiculous I thought she sounded, but I didn't have the heart...and it wouldn't have done any good even if I did. How old-fashioned my mother is...I would think. How could she expect clear-thinking people of the Modern Age to succumb to something as outrageous as that?

But as I look at the world that we live in...I can't help but feel that my mother knew a lot more than I gave her credit for. We "clear-thinking" people of the "Modern World" are being tracked and spied on...our private conversations are being recorded...and we are being ostracized for using cash for our purchases. And pretty soon, the odds are that we will be transitioned into a totally cashless society...where we won't ever get robbed ( :rolleyes: )...and where criminals won't be able to operate with the ease that they currently do.

And we will happily make the transition because, HEY, this is "progress". The same progress that gave us the iPhone. We are evolving for the better...as clear-thinking people of the Modern World should. :ThmbUp:

[Clocker]

But as I look at the world that we live in...I can't help but feel that my mother knew a lot more than I gave her credit for.

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you.

The IRS, which seems to run as its own little regime regardless of who is nominally in charge of government, would love nothing more than abolishing cash.

[thaskalos]

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you.


I believe that, in the end...only the paranoid survive.

[Robert Fischer]

My mother (RIP) would bombard me with stories about the "anti-Christ"; about how he would rise to power in this world...and how he would insist that a barcode or a computer chip be surgically attached to each one of us...under the guise that this is supposedly for our own good. Kinda like how we now implant computer chips into our dogs...for their own good in the event that they get lost. Those of us who objected would be ostracized and eventually banished from society, and be forced to live as the lepers did in the Middle Ages...she would tell me.

I used to inwardly laugh at my mother when she talked like this; I wanted to tell her how ridiculous I thought she sounded, but I didn't have the heart...and it wouldn't have done any good even if I did. How old-fashioned my mother is...I would think. How could she expect clear-thinking people of the Modern Age to succumb to something as outrageous as that?

But as I look at the world that we live in...I can't help but feel that my mother knew a lot more than I gave her credit for. We "clear-thinking" people of the "Modern World" are being tracked and spied on...our private conversations are being recorded...and we are being ostracized for using cash for our purchases. And pretty soon, the odds are that we will be transitioned into a totally cashless society...where we won't ever get robbed ( :rolleyes: )...and where criminals won't be able to operate with the ease that they currently do.

And we will happily make the transition because, HEY, this is "progress". The same progress that gave us the iPhone. We are evolving for the better...as clear-thinking people of the Modern World should. :ThmbUp:

Whenever I hear people talking like that today, and predicting such things, - I think they are crazy.

It has already happened, and they've succeeded.

[classhandicapper]

thaskalos,

One reason we are moving towards a cashless society is that everyone that understands our global financial system and currencies understands that the system is unsound and vulnerable to a complete collapse. Places like Greece are just small warning shots of what could happen on a major scale.

People that understand this system often look for alternatives to government money to store their wealth. They want to avoid inflation eroding its value and to potentially bypass direct confiscation by government or banks (as actually happened in Cyprus and almost happened in Greece recently). They also try to avoid excessive taxation.

The people that know what is actually going on are a threat to the government/banking cabal that wants to socialize banking risks and print money to finance the welfare/warfare state. The more people understand the system, the more likely the masses will want to overhaul it someday.

Quite frankly, (and I know this will sound crazy because it did to me until I educated myself properly), in my world view, this is a battle between intrinsic good and intrinsic evil. I see no other way to describe it. It's not just crazies that think this. Before Alan Greenspan sold his soul to make money in the mainstream, he wrote about the evils and risks of this system.

The "good" are the people that want a sound currency and banking system, responsible government that pays for what it does etc... It's people like you and me. Politically, it's mostly libertarians and investors from the Austrian school of economics that are the most outspoken.

The "evil" are the bankers on Wall St that want to use fiat money to enrich themselves, and others that want to expand and use government for their own economic or political benefit at our expense.

In order to keep the upper hand and continue pillaging us thorough the back door of money printing, "evil" must discredit the monetary alternatives, the people that understand what is really going on, and eventually move to a system where they have complete control of the money (which they pretty much already have to a large extent). Getting rid of cash and requiring all transactions to be done electronically is another step in that direction. They can track everything, tax anything they want, confiscate anything they want in times of trouble for them, and print as much as they choose to transfer wealth from us to them.

[Clocker]

thaskalos,

One reason we are moving towards a cashless society is that everyone that understands our global financial system and currencies understands that the system is unsound and vulnerable to a complete collapse. Places like Greece are just small warning shots of what could happen on a major scale.



One of the big problems Greece faced was a very large underground, i.e., cash, economy. This meant that a significant portion of economic activity was untaxed, which is a big problem for a government that relies on a high V.A.T. for revenue.

Which is a vicious circle, because the higher the V.A.T., the more people try to avoid it via an underground cash economy.

[TJDave]

One of the big problems Greece faced was a very large underground, i.e., cash, economy. This meant that a significant portion of economic activity was untaxed, which is a big problem for a government that relies on a high V.A.T. for revenue.

Which is a vicious circle, because the higher the V.A.T., the more people try to avoid it via an underground cash economy.

Having operated a business in a V.A.T. country I can testify that the V.A.T. system is only as good as its overseer. Official receipts are difficult to disprove. ;)

[Tom]

The war on cash is obviously a cloak to conceal the real purpose - to be able to track us.