Tonalist-John Velazquez

[EMD4ME]

When at Aqueduct last week, I was told that Clement had given JV a 3 race commitment. Well after JV destroyed Tonalist for 3 straight starts, 1) Is he finally going to be removed from Tonalist? 2) Anyone hear anything about Rosario getting back on?

Just curious as I just can't see JV getting a chance to kill this horse for a 4th straight time. This horse deserves better than the rides he's been getting this year.

[cj]

I don't think JRV has given the greatest rides by a long shot, but I'm also not sure Tonalist is all that good either.

[EMD4ME]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Tonalist is a monster at this point either. I was hoping he'd progress more as a 4 YO but JV has totally taken away the ability to see how much, if any, he has progressed with his 3 bonehead rides this year.

I just want to see the horse be given a chance to show what he has.

So, I take it there's no news on a new pilot just yet.

[ebcorde]

When at Aqueduct last week, I was told that Clement had given JV a 3 race commitment. Well after JV destroyed Tonalist for 3 straight starts, 1) Is he finally going to be removed from Tonalist? 2) Anyone hear anything about Rosario getting back on?

Just curious as I just can't see JV getting a chance to kill this horse for a 4th straight time. This horse deserves better than the rides he's been getting this year.

IMHO. Tonalist is a typical plodder. somtimes he wins, sometimes he does not. He's great for exotic bets.

[EMD4ME]

IMHO. Tonalist is a typical plodder. somtimes he wins, sometimes he does not. He's great for exotic bets.

He could have become one this year. He has broken slow in all 4 of his starts.

[Stillriledup]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Tonalist is a monster at this point either. I was hoping he'd progress more as a 4 YO but JV has totally taken away the ability to see how much, if any, he has progressed with his 3 bonehead rides this year.

I just want to see the horse be given a chance to show what he has.

So, I take it there's no news on a new pilot just yet.

He's a horse who needs to be ridden and handled a certain way, JV is not the right jock for him, improvement expected on the switch if there is one.

[EMD4ME]

He's a horse who needs to be ridden and handled a certain way, JV is not the right jock for him, improvement expected on the switch if there is one.

Boy do I wish Ramon rode him in the Met, Suburban and Whitney.

He would've been 3 for 3 in his last three.

Ramon-Only jockey to move a horse up.

JV-one of many to totally bring a horse down in performance.

[SuperPickle]

Boy do I wish Ramon rode him in the Met, Suburban and Whitney.

He would've been 3 for 3 in his last three.

Ramon-Only jockey to move a horse up.

JV-one of many to totally bring a horse down in performance.


Jesus could have ridden him in last two and he wasn't beating Honor Code. NO One including AP was beating Honor Code in the Met Mile. They went 44 to the half going 8 furlongs. He enhailed them.

In the Whitney everything kind of went Honor Code's way in terms of the field different out and him sneaking up the rail. Tonalist was back farther than he should have been but honestly given how he couldn't get up for second I doubt he was winning given the trip.

That being said Tonalist's real problem is Honor Code. they're both closers but Honor Code is a better finisher. So in any race where they both fire and they're both in the back I don't see how Tonalist can beat him on the square. It's no different than two need the lead horses and one is just quicker than the other. Clement should duck Honor Code.

Btw... Castellano and Ramon are 99% the same rider. Same style, same skill, same country, good friends. They're essentially interchangeable.

[EMD4ME]

Jesus could have ridden him in last two and he wasn't beating Honor Code. NO One including AP was beating Honor Code in the Met Mile. They went 44 to the half going 8 furlongs. He enhailed them.

In the Whitney everything kind of went Honor Code's way in terms of the field different out and him sneaking up the rail. Tonalist was back farther than he should have been but honestly given how he couldn't get up for second I doubt he was winning given the trip.

That being said Tonalist's real problem is Honor Code. they're both closers but Honor Code is a better finisher. So in any race where they both fire and they're both in the back I don't see how Tonalist can beat him on the square. It's no different than two need the lead horses and one is just quicker than the other. Clement should duck Honor Code.

Btw... Castellano and Ramon are 99% the same rider. Same style, same skill, same country, good friends. They're essentially interchangeable.


PLEASE DONT EVER INSULT RAMON AGAIN. CALLING HIM 99 % THE SAME AS CASTELLANO IS THE BIGGEST CURSE YOU COULD EVER CALL HIM

[EMD4ME]

QUOTE:" Tonalist was back farther than he should have been but honestly given how he couldn't get up for second I doubt he was winning given the trip."

That being said Tonalist's real problem is Honor Code. they're both closers but Honor Code is a better finisher. So in any race where they both fire and they're both in the back I don't see how Tonalist can beat him on the square. It's no different than two need the lead horses and one is just quicker than the other. Clement should duck Honor Code.

Btw... Castellano and Ramon are 99% the same rider. Same style, same skill, same country, good friends. They're essentially interchangeable.[/QUOTE]

Now, I don't know what race you watched in the Whitney BUT....

As they entered the CT I was screaming clear HIM CLEAR HIM CLEAR HIM. My friend said: What are you screaming for? Liam's Map already HAS the lead. I quickly pointed to the right side of the screen and said JV, cut off Honor Code you idiot. Tonalist was ahead of HC and HAD a 3 wide horse to his outside to USE A SHIELD IF HE DID CLEAR HC. In addition, in the early part of the backstretch, Tonalist was outside and ahead of Honor Code. JV refused to cut him off and use the 3 wide horse as a shield.

DIPSTICK JV allowed HC up the rail late backstretch, he spent the entire far turn BEING REACTIVE INSTEAD OF PROACTIVE (RAMON WAS SO PROACTIVE YOU COULD CALL HIM A PSYCHIC-STUPID JOCKS ARE REACTIVE AND REACT WHEN IT'S TOO LATE TO FIX THEIR INABILITY TO PROACTIVE) CHASING OUTSIDE OF HONOR CODE AS HONOR CODE WAS RATTLING OFF HIS OWN FAST LATE furlongs.

OF COURSE Tonalist was beaten by Honor Code. American Pharoah can be beaten with brain dead rides like this. Secretariat can be beaten with brain dead rides like this.

Please, before you speak, look at the replays of what actually happened.

[EMD4ME]

As for the MET. Watch that replay closely again. I'm tired of pointing out where Johnny blew that race as well.

And....Before you ask about the middle race (Suburban). Migliore said that JV took it like a man and said he gave Tonalist a BAD ride.

[SuperPickle]

PLEASE DONT EVER INSULT RAMON AGAIN. CALLING HIM 99 % THE SAME AS CASTELLANO IS THE BIGGEST CURSE YOU COULD EVER CALL HIM

The most amusing part of this is JC and Ramon are close friends and Ramon would be the first to tell you JC's the better jockey.

And I say that as a huge Ramon fan.

They're about equal in my book but if you talk to Ramon he speaks VERY highly of JC.

[EMD4ME]

The most amusing part of this is JC and Ramon are close friends and Ramon would be the first to tell you JC's the better jockey.

And I say that as a huge Ramon fan.

They're about equal in my book but if you talk to Ramon he speaks VERY highly of JC.

Maybe your obtuse and don't see another angle to that?

Ramon is by FFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Eons ahead of Javier and because of Ramon's gentlemenly demeanor, of course he is humble and polite, hence his compliment of others.

Castellano couldn't hold Ramon's jock strap for a NANOSECOND.

If you don't see that, please keep feeding pools as you're probably missing a whole lot more.

Sorry to be a jerk about this, seriously. But the fact that THIS is even a discussion is insulting to the LEGENDARY RAMON DOMINGUEZ.

[SuperPickle]

QUOTE:" Tonalist was back farther than he should have been but honestly given how he couldn't get up for second I doubt he was winning given the trip."

That being said Tonalist's real problem is Honor Code. they're both closers but Honor Code is a better finisher. So in any race where they both fire and they're both in the back I don't see how Tonalist can beat him on the square. It's no different than two need the lead horses and one is just quicker than the other. Clement should duck Honor Code.

Btw... Castellano and Ramon are 99% the same rider. Same style, same skill, same country, good friends. They're essentially interchangeable.

Now, I don't know what race you watched in the Whitney BUT....

As they entered the CT I was screaming clear HIM CLEAR HIM CLEAR HIM. My friend said: What are you screaming for? Liam's Map already HAS the lead. I quickly pointed to the right side of the screen and said JV, cut off Honor Code you idiot. Tonalist was ahead of HC and HAD a 3 wide horse to his outside to USE A SHIELD IF HE DID CLEAR HC. In addition, in the early part of the backstretch, Tonalist was outside and ahead of Honor Code. JV refused to cut him off and use the 3 wide horse as a shield.

DIPSTICK JV allowed HC up the rail late backstretch, he spent the entire far turn BEING REACTIVE INSTEAD OF PROACTIVE (RAMON WAS SO PROACTIVE YOU COULD CALL HIM A PSYCHIC-STUPID JOCKS ARE REACTIVE AND REACT WHEN IT'S TOO LATE TO FIX THEIR INABILITY TO PROACTIVE) CHASING OUTSIDE OF HONOR CODE AS HONOR CODE WAS RATTLING OFF HIS OWN FAST LATE furlongs.

OF COURSE Tonalist was beaten by Honor Code. American Pharoah can be beaten with brain dead rides like this. Secretariat can be beaten with brain dead rides like this.

Please, before you speak, look at the replays of what actually happened.[/QUOTE]


Yeah I watched the replay of both races several times and I get that Johnny blew it by not getting Tonalist in front of Honor Code early in both races. There's no way it matters in the Met but it was certainly more felonious in the Whitney. Your right that its horrible he couldn't get in front of him in the first turn. Clement should be angry

I'm not disputing he gave the horse a crappy ride. I'm disputing it would have changed the outcome. Honor Code just closes faster than him. He needs big seperation from Honor Code to win. Even if he's a length or two ahead of him I think Honor Codes runs him down with a square trip. Like I said if he got up for second I'd feel less comfortable saying that.

I just think Honor Code is more of a closer while Tonalist is like other people said a pludder. He's a horse that kicks out consistent quarters all through a race.

If Rosario gets back on him I think he tries to get him much closer early.

[EMD4ME]

Now, I don't know what race you watched in the Whitney BUT....

As they entered the CT I was screaming clear HIM CLEAR HIM CLEAR HIM. My friend said: What are you screaming for? Liam's Map already HAS the lead. I quickly pointed to the right side of the screen and said JV, cut off Honor Code you idiot. Tonalist was ahead of HC and HAD a 3 wide horse to his outside to USE A SHIELD IF HE DID CLEAR HC. In addition, in the early part of the backstretch, Tonalist was outside and ahead of Honor Code. JV refused to cut him off and use the 3 wide horse as a shield.

DIPSTICK JV allowed HC up the rail late backstretch, he spent the entire far turn BEING REACTIVE INSTEAD OF PROACTIVE (RAMON WAS SO PROACTIVE YOU COULD CALL HIM A PSYCHIC-STUPID JOCKS ARE REACTIVE AND REACT WHEN IT'S TOO LATE TO FIX THEIR INABILITY TO PROACTIVE) CHASING OUTSIDE OF HONOR CODE AS HONOR CODE WAS RATTLING OFF HIS OWN FAST LATE furlongs.

OF COURSE Tonalist was beaten by Honor Code. American Pharoah can be beaten with brain dead rides like this. Secretariat can be beaten with brain dead rides like this.

Please, before you speak, look at the replays of what actually happened.


Yeah I watched the replay of both races several times and I get that Johnny blew it by not getting Tonalist in front of Honor Code early in both races. There's no way it matters in the Met but it was certainly more felonious in the Whitney. Your right that its horrible he couldn't get in front of him in the first turn. Clement should be angry

I'm not disputing he gave the horse a crappy ride. I'm disputing it would have changed the outcome. Honor Code just closes faster than him. He needs big seperation from Honor Code to win. Even if he's a length or two ahead of him I think Honor Codes runs him down with a square trip. Like I said if he got up for second I'd feel less comfortable saying that.

I just think Honor Code is more of a closer while Tonalist is like other people said a pludder. He's a horse that kicks out consistent quarters all through a race.

If Rosario gets back on him I think he tries to get him much closer early.[/QUOTE]

Tonalist was in front of HC in the MET. It was JV's stupid pump right after the start (INTO A 4 HORSE WALL) that took the closing starch out of Tonalist, hence HC's rally past him.

In the Whitney, if JV clears HC, he has the rail into the far turn, rallying into the 3rd and 4th quarters INSIDE OF HC, as opposed to the opposite.

HUGE difference in trips.

Night and day.

[Prytanis]

What gets JV's horses beat is his fear of going inside horses.
Other than that,he is a very good rider,with a clear trip.

Another rider like that is Jose Lezcano
I like them both but if I know they'll be incide then I don't bet as much on their horses

[Stillriledup]

Johnny V has a plan today. He's a man with a plan. Today's the day.

[Robert Fischer]

I just think Coach Inge is a better horse than Tonalist. Singled in the p3. It's a little tempting to hedge with Tonalist just in case CI runs a dud for some reason, but you don't hedge with 4/5 shots,... you either include those or you let it ride.

[Robert Fischer]

Late money hammered Coach Inge (see Mountain Man's 'square money = new contrarianism' thread), but Tonalist was both the best/class horse in the race and got a nice ride by JV.

Wicked Strong had some horse today.

Lesson? 'include' the 4/5 shot on your pic tix, if the fav is so strong that you would actually consider hedging once you get there alive to your value.

[zico20]

Glad to see Tonalist won with ease. He will be a complete throw out in the BC. The horse can only run in New York. Hopefully he will be third choice so I can get some value in the super with him nowhere.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

When at Aqueduct last week, I was told that Clement had given JV a 3 race commitment. Well after JV destroyed Tonalist for 3 straight starts, 1) Is he finally going to be removed from Tonalist? 2) Anyone hear anything about Rosario getting back on?

Just curious as I just can't see JV getting a chance to kill this horse for a 4th straight time. This horse deserves better than the rides he's been getting this year.

This should get interesting.

[thaskalos]

This should get interesting.
I doubt it..because EMD4ME doesn't post here anymore.

[Tom]

I thought he was much the much the best today, but that was not saying much. Piss poor field and I don't see him anywhere near the winner's circle at Kee.

[Redboard]

I disagree, I think Tonalist has a heck-of-a shot, especially if we’re dealing with a muddy track.

He’s only won in NY because he’s only run in NY except for one race in last year’s BCC, where he gave a pretty good showing of himself going from dead last to 5th and receiving a 105 beyer(the only race in his career-besides his first in 2013 where he was 4th- that he’s not hit the board).

The problem with him, until yesterday, was his tendency to start slow and move to the back of the pack – especially when he ran without blinkers. Not much chance in winning the BCC on a dirt track with that running style. Yesterday, he did something completely different, instead of moving to the back he stayed outside and closer to the pace. I believe he did this because he’s a smart horse and didn’t want water/mud thrown in his face.
With a good post position and the right trip, sign me up – the speed figures are there.

[Robert Fischer]

He's a good horse and he's going good.

If there is a 'battle royale' on the pace, or with multiple moves, Tonalist is certainly a threat to capitalize to some degree.

[Tom]

Did he put blinkers back on Saturday?

[cbp]

Two points:

Coach Inge obviously didn't handle the track.
Honor Code has proven to be the better closer.

[Robert Fischer]

Coach Inge obviously didn't handle the track.


He did not look comfortable.

I thought that it was a little odd to have entered Constitution in that race. Coach Inge has the ability to be on the pace, and the entry of Constitution takes away options.

Coach Inge was clearly(and logically) ridden as an uncoupled entry in the Woodward, I just didn't see a need for any such considerations to play any factor in the JCGC.

Will be somewhat interesting to see where he ends up next.

[classhandicapper]

I played Coach Inge.

I thought he was probably better than Tonalist in the Suburban and I saw nothing in the Woodward to make me think he was going backwards. He had a easy trip that day, but he was more or less ridden for 2nd.

He ran so poorly in the JCGC he clearly either did not like the track or something was physically wrong with him.

[PaceAdvantage]

I doubt it..because EMD4ME doesn't post here anymore.You're such a pessimist.

[Redboard]

Two points:

Coach Inge obviously didn't handle the track.
Honor Code has proven to be the better closer.

Coach Inge is a puzzle. I think he'll be outclassed.

I agree with you about Honor Code. He's a better closer. His LPs in virtually every race this year (except last Saturday) are higher than Tonalist's.
However, I expected him to be the third betting choice, after AP and Beholder. I'd take Tonalist at 12-1 rather than Honor Code at 4-1.
After last weekend that might not be the case. Steve Haskin has him as the 5th betting choice, after Tonalist & Lian's Map.
If you liked Honor Code before last weekend, the results of last Saturday certainly helped your value.

[Redboard]

You're such a pessimist.

It would be virtually impossible for EMD4ME to stay away if AP loses in his next race.
:)

[classhandicapper]

If you liked Honor Code before last weekend, the results of last Saturday certainly helped your value.

He's going to need pace help and 10F is a question mark, but I agree in general that his last race helped his value.

[cbp]

It was inferred that I will be supporting Coach Inge and Honor Code. Not necessarily the case. Just using them to put Tonalist's race, and chances in the Classic, in perspective.

[Cratos]

He's going to need pace help and 10F is a question mark, but I agree in general that his last race helped his value.
I am a big fan of both Honor Code and Tonalist, but both of them appear to like the "bigger" racetracks with the big turns.

Therefore if they run in the BCC at Keeneland they will face track size downsizing and to what extent that will affect their performance is a guesstimate.

However the horse that have the "tools' for any track size is American Pharoah.

Yes he is a 3yo, but he is one tough hombre and if he runs in the BCC he must be considered.

[classhandicapper]

However the horse that have the "tools' for any track size is American Pharoah.

Yes he is a 3yo, but he is one tough hombre and if he runs in the BCC he must be considered.

He's going to be tough to bet at the probable price, but as we get closer to the race I expect to find myself in the position of defending his chances against all the wise guys that are going to toss him.

[cbp]

Saratoga is a 'Big Salad' track? Bigger than Kee's salad? Cause Honor Code didn't have a problem with an inside run @Sar.

[Cratos]

Saratoga is a 'Big Salad' track? Bigger than Kee's salad? Cause Honor Code didn't have a problem with an inside run @Sar.
Wasn't that said earlier or at least inferred?

[SuperPickle]

Rain is such a real possibility for the Classic. Consider at Santa Anita the shot of it raining was probably less than 5% chance. In Kentucky on a fall weekend its more like 20-30% shot at an off track.

Tonalist loves the slop and he's also generally more forwardly placed on it so he's be clearly in front of Honor Code and the deep closers.

I'm not a fan of his on a fast Keeneland track but if it rains he's almost impossible to leave off any tickets.

Clement will be doing a rain dance!

[Stillriledup]

Rain is such a real possibility for the Classic. Consider at Santa Anita the shot of it raining was probably less than 5% chance. In Kentucky on a fall weekend its more like 20-30% shot at an off track.

Tonalist loves the slop and he's also generally more forwardly placed on it so he's be clearly in front of Honor Code and the deep closers.

I'm not a fan of his on a fast Keeneland track but if it rains he's almost impossible to leave off any tickets.

Clement will be doing a rain dance!

Would also be interesting to see if Liam's connections cross enter the classic if the forecast is for rain.