Flash orders/ tote ineffeciency

[1st time lasix]

Article on CBS Market watch that highlights the huge advantage the flash traders have on Wall Street exchanges---suggesting that even 150-200 miliseconds is enough to produce front running trades and order cancellations. In today's world of fast algorythims, hacking and electonic trading is there really much doubt that some of that type of explotation might be occuring in the antiquated simulcast batch tote system? I am not a computer systems expert..... but this article sheds even more light on injustice and security issues. With money being poured into the simulcast hubs at different speeds and through far slower systems...it seems the window for abuse certainly exists.

[AndyC]

Article on CBS Market watch that highlights the huge advantage the flash traders have on Wall Street exchanges---suggesting that even 150-200 miliseconds is enough to produce front running trades and order cancellations. In today's world of fast algorythims, hacking and electonic trading is there really much doubt that some of that type of explotation might be occuring in the antiquated simulcast batch tote system? I am not a computer systems expert..... but this article sheds even more light on injustice and security issues. With money being poured into the simulcast hubs at different speeds and through far slower systems...it seems the window for abuse certainly exists.

How would you frontrun a mutuel pool for an advantage?

[MPRanger]

How would you frontrun a mutuel pool for an advantage?

By betting a particular horse big to influence the pool then cancelling the bet in the last few seconds and betting the target horse.

[Stillriledup]

By betting a particular horse big to influence the pool then cancelling the bet in the last few seconds and betting the target horse.

That's not as smart as over betting your own pick and cancelling most of the wager at the last second.

[AndyC]

By betting a particular horse big to influence the pool then cancelling the bet in the last few seconds and betting the target horse.

That is being done now. I was interested in how someone would apply the methods that were being used on the stock markets to racing.

[Poindexter]

imo, the biggest edge would be reading into the blind pools. I find it very hard to believe that these guys aren't able to get into the tote system and read every ticket played(much like we talked about in another thread). From the perspective of exploiting value and latching on to live horses this could prove invaluable info, especially since they are the only ones that have that info.

[Stillriledup]

imo, the biggest edge would be reading into the blind pools. I find it very hard to believe that these guys aren't able to get into the tote system and read every ticket played(much like we talked about in another thread). From the perspective of exploiting value and latching on to live horses this could prove invaluable info, especially since they are the only ones that have that info.

I would say no because if they were able to do it, you would rarely if ever see a carryover as they would 'see' all the uncovered combos and get 1 or 2 bucks on each one.

[Poindexter]

I would say no because if they were able to do it, you would rarely if ever see a carryover as they would 'see' all the uncovered combos and get 1 or 2 bucks on each one.

If they did that then suddenly the tracks would catch on and investigate and they would lose their edge. They are much smarter than that. That would be amateur hour like the bozos that did the BC pick six scandal. The idea is to stay off the radar not cause attention to yourself.

[Poindexter]

How would you frontrun a mutuel pool for an advantage?

Forgot to mention the biggest advantage. If there computers are able to see bets in transit, than at 10/5 seconds to off time they have a much more accurate gauge of what each horses true odds are in all pools than everybody else. Would make it a lot easier to bet accurately. That 6/5 that gets hammered to 2/5, they would already know and refrain from betting it.

[thaskalos]

Forgot to mention the biggest advantage. If there computers are able to see bets in transit, than at 10/5 seconds to off time they have a much more accurate gauge of what each horses true odds are in all pools than everybody else. Would make it a lot easier to bet accurately. That 6/5 that gets hammered to 2/5, they would already know and refrain from betting it.
How could they possibly MISS those "bets in transit"? Haven't we all seen how slow these bets are in arriving?

[Robert Goren]

Having access to the pool numbers before the public would be a huge advantage to a large betting operation. As it is now, the tracks do not update the tote board near often enough with in 3 MTP. Some tracks are better than others. Right now I bet GP and SAR. GP updates more often than SAR, but it could do better. I do not see why they can't do it every 10 seconds. I think 10 seconds is reasonable in the win pool.

[thespaah]

That is being done now. I was interested in how someone would apply the methods that were being used on the stock markets to racing.
Ahh....The conspiracy theorist may quip, "who says they don't?".....Manipulate the market price of a particular stock or stocks

[thespaah]

I would say no because if they were able to do it, you would rarely if ever see a carryover as they would 'see' all the uncovered combos and get 1 or 2 bucks on each one.
Playing Devil's advocate here....Why would it not be possible for large betting syndicates to deliberately "miss" a Pick 6 collect the 5 of 6 correct while driving up the size of the pool?....Especially on days approaching guaranteed track pools.
Some may say "that's stupid. Suppose some group of guys on track decides to pool a couple hundred bucks and play "numbers"....
At this point, the possibilities abound for shenanigans to occur.

[AndyC]

Playing Devil's advocate here....Why would it not be possible for large betting syndicates to deliberately "miss" a Pick 6 collect the 5 of 6 correct while driving up the size of the pool?....Especially on days approaching guaranteed track pools.
Some may say "that's stupid. Suppose some group of guys on track decides to pool a couple hundred bucks and play "numbers"....
At this point, the possibilities abound for shenanigans to occur.

Unless you are past posting it would be a little bit difficult.

[Pensacola Pete]

The edge comes in seeing the mutuel pools up to 30 seconds before everybody else does. That's been commonplace for over a decade.

[thespaah]

Unless you are past posting it would be a little bit difficult.
A little difficult....But not impossible.

[AndyC]

A little difficult....But not impossible.

To not hit a P-6 on purpose would mean that you knew who the winners were ahead of time. If you did know the winners would you really need to mess around with the tote?

[highnote]

I would like to see Trifecta Pools transmitted. The data file would be tiny compared to just the info on this web page you're reading.

A Trifecta pool is like a series of exacta pools. Each horse in a Trifecta pool would have an "exacta" matrix associated with it. So with 10 horses there would be 10 matrices.

Belmont Park used to have a monitor in the far corner of the grandstand that showed the Trifecta will-pays.

If players would make more noise and demand the trifecta pools be shown the "industry" might accommodate the players.

[cj]

I would like to see Trifecta Pools transmitted. The data file would be tiny compared to just the info on this web page you're reading.

A Trifecta pool is like a series of exacta pools. Each horse in a Trifecta pool would have an "exacta" matrix associated with it. So with 10 horses there would be 10 matrices.

Belmont Park used to have a monitor in the far corner of the grandstand that showed the Trifecta will-pays.

If players would make more noise and demand the trifecta pools be shown the "industry" might accommodate the players.

I've seen monitors display the amount each horse had in the trifecta pool with it on top, but no more than that.

[highnote]

I've seen monitors display the amount each horse had in the trifecta pool with it on top, but no more than that.

The monitor at Belmont used to have the will pays for every combination. It would show a screen for the first horse and the will pays for every combination. Then it would flash to the second horse and show the will pays for that horse. Then it would flash the third horse's will pays, etc.

I can't think of a good reason why this data should not be transmitted.

I can think of a lot of bad reasons why it isn't transmitted.

[PaceAdvantage]

I have never seen a monitor at Belmont or any other NYRA track that displayed any detailed info concerning trifectas, other than what cj described.

This has to be one top-secret monitor!

[highnote]

I have never seen a monitor at Belmont or any other NYRA track that displayed any detailed info concerning trifectas, other than what cj described.

This has to be one top-secret monitor!


It was one of those old standard definition CRT monitors that hung from a support pole. It was out in the open. This was back in the 1990s and last time I was there I looked for it, but couldn't find it. So they may have taken it down. But I can assure you it existed at one time.

So I know they have had the ability to broadcast trifecta payoffs for years.

The question is why don't they do it?

I'll make a few phone calls and see if I can find an answer.

[LottaKash]

.......the "industry" might accommodate the players.

Possibly but not certainly.... :D :D :D