Question on Charts

[Bruddah]

I am an old time hobbyist handicapper for over 35 years. While I use a computer racing program to do my number crunching, I rely on the charts to help make decisions on key races and horses etc. My question is how many of you still use charts or at least look at them for certain races? Thanks for your in put.

I would hate to go back to the days we did it all by pen and paper. Those seem like the dark ages to me now but it was good training.

[Tom]

I use the chart comments quite a bit. I have them in my database and I can either sort them by day or by horse, so I can look at each comment and the PP line together. One of my favorites is a horse that was in the middle of a three horse duel and then fades. this is a real excuse in my book and I love to play these guys back when they figure to be clear early today. Anoth good one is a horse who duels with at least two others during the race, then still hangs on for second or third, even if a few lengths back, and figures to get clear today.

Tom

[ranchwest]

What is your data source for the charts in a database? What is the cost?

[FortuneHunter]

Originally posted by ranchwest
What is your data source for the charts in a database? What is the cost?

We really want know.

Next technology leap:

Replays on DVD, tied into your database. Click on 5Dec02Aqu9 and the DVD player pops up, you pick Camera 5 (on coming stretch view) and see if that horse got blocked. Zoom in if you like.
No more comments, you see it for yourself, any angle (available) any speed. Burn your comments right on the DVD. Trip players dream.

[ranchwest]

Better yet, the races are online but are addressable in a standard manner so that your stored comments can be linked to the replays. Then, you don't have to wait to get a DVD or pay for the media. The races are stored one time. And, you get to make your own personal comments. And, preferably those comments are stored on your own computer so that there's no possibility of anyone else interrogating your comments.

[Bruddah]

Sorry, I didn't make my last post clear. I still use the paper charts. Stored on and in my desk. hee hee. I dream of the day you all have pointed to for chart players in your posts. Heck, I will settle for downloading and easy retrieval, without stacks of paper. Certainly better than what I have been doing for years.

My question was really meant to find out if anyone else used the charts in their handicapping?

[FortuneHunter]

Originally posted by ranchwest
Better yet, the races are online but are addressable in a standard manner so that your stored comments can be linked to the replays. Then, you don't have to wait to get a DVD or pay for the media. The races are stored one time. And, you get to make your own personal comments. And, preferably those comments are stored on your own computer so that there's no possibility of anyone else interrogating your comments.


The problem with your idea is the internet. I have cable modem, and it is getting slower and slower as more people get it.
Video is a bandwith problem. You will never (never say never) get DVD quality in a streaming download off the net.
Instead of DVD what could be done is at night when you go to bed, you logon to "RaceVideosAreUs.com" and download the day's races all night while you sleep. Hey, computer isn't doing anything all night. Store to your 1000 GByte hard disk then you would get DVD quality.

[Bruddah]

Maybe Marc at DRF can tell us what their experience with players using the charts has been? He always adds some intelligent insights based on DRF experience and point of view.

Tom, I like your post on using the comment lines. Do you have to manually enter this into your data base or have you found an easier way to do it. As for me manual entry is a task. I dis like typing, therefore, anything to do with it causes me to procrastinate. Including posting on message boards. I do much more lurking than posting. hee hee

[Marc At DRF]

A couple of thoughts--

Though I think race replays will play a more accessible role in the next decade, in terms of being available either on the net or via DVD or whatever new technology comes along, I have my doubts about just how widespread this will really be. I think the problem is: How many players REALLY want to add extra hours to their 'capping by looking at race replays?

My feeling is that is a small number, a number that ultimately doesn't translate to a whole lot of $ for whoever gets this sort of business off the ground.

I just don't know if the financials work on something like this. The technology will catch up, but I'm just not sure how driven any company will be to get this off the ground... A few are trying, with no luck at all...

On charts-- Obviously they are accessed at our site a ton, and Equibase's as well. Plus we do OK business with Simo weekly, which compiles most charts...

I think it's a huge part of our customers' 'capping activity, and I see young players relying on them as well as veterans...

[Show Me the Wire]

Bruddah:

I use charts, my own notebook, and speed figs (TG or Rags). I download the charts from Equibase keeping an electronic paper file (paperport). This allows me to make notes on the charts and store them on the hard drive fro further reference.

My notebook is paper and pencil noting my immediate race observations and of course the speed figs are purchased.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

[ranchwest]

Marc,

Do you know why the charts are only available in HTML? Why not in XML, comma delimited or dBase?

[Marc At DRF]

We're actually pretty close to having charts in comma delimited on the site.

We're working on how we're going to package them for you all...

Another "stay tuned," but at least there's not a major technical holdup...

[Handle]

So here's where 3D "video" replays of races from the chart data would be a valuable tool, as we've discussed a bit in the EquiSim thread. That is, you could replay races ala EquiSim's 3D simulations for upcoming races where the horses and track are all rendered to scale using 3D technology.

The benefit to this method is that the data needed to do the replay is very small compared to the amount of data requird for "real" video.

The big question I have is -- how many people would want a tool that could replay races in 3D from the data in the charts? I have a prototype of this sort of thing. If enough people are interested in it, I can make a demo of it so folks can see what it looks like _after_ I get my workload under control. I can guage interest
from the responses here, but you can always drop me a line
at "nmiseroc@golganooza.com"

The big bonus is that you can have this sort of technology today.
The limitations of this method are:

A) You have the same inaccuracies that you have in the charts themselves. That is, was the horse really 1 length back, or was he 1 1/2 lengths back, etc..

B) You only get around 4 calls per race (depending on distance). This is enough to give you an idea of how the race unfolded (and its the limitation most of us deal with daily with our handicapping anyway). This is where the recent thread on "individual timing of horses" would really shine. If I could have accurate data on each horse's time every, say, 10 seconds during a race I could do some remarkable things. Clearly, real "video" doesn't suffer from this problem.

C) The optimum charts to use for "replays" are not free.
You (I) would need a parser in order to extract the data from
the free charts for "replay" purposes. The problem with this is that the format of the data is not gaurunteed as it is when it is in a structured data file -- so it could change and then your program would have to be re-written. BRIS sells "Import Chart Files" which are structured data files. They charge an unrealistic 1 dollar a piece for them. This long winded question is to ask -- how many people would pay 1 dollar a card (about 10 cents a race) for the ability to watch a 3D replay of the races in the card?

So, cost might be a limitation here -- but there's no way that you're going to get video archives for free when they become so easy to use (when we all have infinite bandwidth), so 1 dollar for the card may not be that much afterall.

-Handle

[ranchwest]

Marc,

Will the comma delimited files be free, as the HTML is?

Handle,

Ideally, it would be possible to have charts for every race. I'd like to be able to see the data from any past race, not just the ones, say, at my local track or circuit. $1 a card is steep, IMHO. Your idea for a race representation is interesting, but still not worth $1 a card or anywhere near that amount. At one time, Equibase was doing something like that.

[ranchwest]

Real video does suffer from not giving an accurate representation. Very often, not all of the horses are on the screen at one time. Once again, I allude to Wise Times winning the Super Derby from about 25 lengths off the pace. Chances are, through much of the race he would not even be in the picture while winning a G1.

Also, if only a single video angle is available, it is subject to distortion. Very often, you can't tell relative distances on the turns, for instance.

[Marc At DRF]

Free comma delimiteds--

Doubt it.

Maybe to unlimited annual PP subscribers, but not to anybody else.

[Handle]

ranchwest,

That's my feeling on the price too. Equibase, if I recall, had a cheesy little thing where icons of horses trotted across your screen. I'm talking about 3D graphics -- what EquiSim has today (although those graphics, I admit, can be improved upon).

I haven't ruled out the ability to use the free Instant Charts for doing 3D race replays -- I'm just leary of developing software that depends on a data source that could change arbitrarily.

-Handle

[ranchwest]

Free HTML, but not free comma delimiteds? We should be able to read it, but not really use it, is that the conclusion?

[ranchwest]

Handle,

Yes, if I had time, I could parse the file, but I'd be very leary of giving my parser to someone else because they'd probably change the format about once a month.

[Handle]

Here's a URL to a 2D picture of a 3D race simulation.
(click the picture to get a larger view).

http://www.golganooza.com/equisim/FeaturesFrame.html

The view can be zoomed and rotated -- you can view the race
from pretty much any angle (you can even "ride" the horses if you
want to... but that's a different topic).

With this sort of rendering technology, the only question is
whether the data from the charts is enough to produce worth
while "video".

-Handle

[Handle]

Very good point. Not to mention that most video you get on the web these days is horrible in quality (I'm not talking download speed -- when they make the resolution smaller and shrink the frame size, you can barely see the race).

Originally posted by ranchwest
Real video does suffer from not giving an accurate representation.

[Marc At DRF]

We can only give away so many things for free. There are costs left and right to do these things.

Let's put it this way: Are there other sites offering free comma delimiteds? Why aren't there?

I know it would be great if everything was free...

[Handle]

What is a fair price for the chart files in a comma delimited format?

BRIS has "Import Chart Files" that they charge a buck for. THese files, last I look, don't even have the extended commentary. They do have each horse's last race in them so you could develop a key race program from them.

But, they also have two other results files that you have to pay for, Exotic Results and Import Results. It would be nice if they would just put all of the results information in one file and maybe charge 50 cents for it -- it wouldn't be difficult to do so, and the process of creating the files is (or should be) automated.

Originally posted by Marc At DRF
We can only give away so many things for free. There are costs left and right to do these things.

Let's put it this way: Are there other sites offering free comma delimiteds? Why aren't there?

I know it would be great if everything was free...

[Handle]

I'm not sure what you mean by "giving my parser to someone else". Still -- I think I agree with what you're saying. If you developed software that could create comma delimited charts from the free ones -- that wouldn't be good for the big companies that sell comma delimited charts. So, it would be in their interest to break your parser by changing the format of the free charts.

Fortunately, I think EquiBase has the lead in a lot of these "free" things. They've had free charts long before BRIS did (BRIS had, and still has, "fast charts" that they charged a 25 or 50 cents for -- just totally unformatted text files). Or, maybe this isn't fortunate, but at least there's the precedent.

Originally posted by ranchwest
Handle,

Yes, if I had time, I could parse the file, but I'd be very leary of giving my parser to someone else because they'd probably change the format about once a month.

[ranchwest]

Where is the cost in a delimited chart? Surely you must be generating the HTML from a database, right? Just export the data to a delimited file and put it on an ftp site. Is this really rocket science?

[ranchwest]

It isn't just that a lot of outfits would want to defeat the parser. It just seems like most web content changes about once a month. I guess that's how web designers stay employed.

If I gave away the parser and they changed the format, then I'd be getting tons of emails from people wanting a revised parser before the limited time free chart would scroll off the calendar.

[Marc At DRF]

Everything is more complicated over here than you think it is.

And I don't want to go any further than that in a public forum.

[Handle]

And that is exactly why I am leary about basing my 3D replays on free chart files -- the data format could change, either arbitrarily or purposefully... and just think of all the happy customers I'd have.

The alternative is the 1 Dollar files from BRIS, in addition to the 25 cent results files and the 1 dollar data card -- that's 2.25 per card.
Some don' t mind this cost, but others I believe would see it as exhuberant -- especially when the "free" charts are sitting right in front of them.

Originally posted by ranchwest
It isn't just that a lot of outfits would want to defeat the parser. It just seems like most web content changes about once a month. I guess that's how web designers stay employed.

If I gave away the parser and they changed the format, then I'd be getting tons of emails from people wanting a revised parser before the limited time free chart would scroll off the calendar.

[Bruddah]

You guys want to build a rocket ship when a piper cub would suffice in the beginning. "I once saw in a Boeing hanger a sign which read, If all questions need be answered first, no project would ever fly." The Kitty Hawk didn't perform like the space shuttle of today. Flight evolved and is still evolving. The claim to fame for the Wright Bros. was to be the first to achieve what mankind had longed dreamed of doing.

We chart handicappers are limited by our imaginations in developing a minds eye recreation of the race. In truth we are blind. The challenge would be to give us sight through 3-D and technology today. Are we willing to pay a $1 for a file, I think so. Only time will tell. I am sure these same arguments on costs, pricing etc. took place regarding other electronic information products.

Who will claim the prize to be the first to do it in this industry and offer it to the handicapper?

[GR1@HTR]

Think equibase controls a lot of this. I know i've asked my data supplier for some things on our export program from the charts and he tells me much of that stuff (comments, trip notes) are a "no no". Goes against contractual agreement w/ Equibase. Guess they want to have control of the information in case they want to be able to sell it down the road.

[Tom]

How many charts could your realistically use? How many tracks can you follow in depth? If you play database slections, you just play the plays as they come up. If you over analyze then, you will miss the big payoffs.
If you are going to analyze races, how many tracks can you realistically follow? When I need to look up something that bad in a chart I don't have, I just download the one I need.
If you follow one or two track daily, you can save HTML charts to you dive or print them out.
I download the charts for the tracks I follow and put them into a database, but that is only a half dozen any one time.

Tom

[ranchwest]

Tom,

You're thinking in terms of meeting your needs instead of thinking in terms of having what is available to explore possibly expanding your capabilities.

Just think what you might do if you could follow key races at every track in the country.

Until and unless I can explore these possibilities, I don't know whether they would be useful or effective or not.

I understand the concept of selling data for the future. I have difficulty understanding why an industry would not want to make the historical record of its events available at no cost. What is even more confusing is why the data IS available for FREE in HTML format, but not in a format that can be accessed via a database. A comma delimited file should be easier to provide than an HTML document, so the issue appears to be whether a company can milk money from its customers for every possible document.

[GameTheory]

Hello,

I'd just like to point out that at the moment I'm making a parser for the HTML charts -- please see my post in the software forum. (By the way, the downloader is about 2 days from completion -- those you have emailed me will be getting a copy via email.)

It's quite possible that they'll change the format, of course, but I'm writing the program in a way that it should be very easy to adjust to such changes....