View Full Version : lasix-free racing at GP on saturday
biggestal99
07-16-2015, 08:32 AM
23 raceday lasix-free 2 year old fillies are entered in two races at Gulfstream this Saturday.
Wonder how many will bleed?
They are conducting a voluntary study on these horses as well as race day lasix 2 year old.
My thanks to GP for running these races.
Allan
chadk66
07-16-2015, 10:15 AM
I don't think any one of them will win without the PED lasix:D
I smell betting opportunities galore from these races.
Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 12:19 PM
I smell betting opportunities galore from these races.
For bettors or insiders?
Personally I wouldn't touch these races w 2 ft pole.
For bettors or insiders?
Personally I wouldn't touch these races w 2 ft pole.
I'm not talking about these races, I'm talking about as the horses get back and either do or do not add lasix.
Stillriledup
07-16-2015, 12:46 PM
I'm not talking about these races, I'm talking about as the horses get back and either do or do not add lasix.
aah, interesting.
I agree.
lamboguy
07-16-2015, 01:53 PM
i am going to go on record after looking at the entries that no more than 1 horse in the 2 races will bleed visually.
Ruffian1
07-16-2015, 02:17 PM
I'm not talking about these races, I'm talking about as the horses get back and either do or do not add lasix.
Will any that went off lasix be required to bleed again and get days for a 2nd offense? And will it be strike two which is 30-60 days depending on jurisdiction? Three strikes was a year in my day.
lamboguy
07-16-2015, 02:27 PM
Will any that went off lasix be required to bleed again and get days for a 2nd offense? And will it be strike two which is 30-60 days depending on jurisdiction? Three strikes was a year in my day.they are all first time starters
Ruffian1
07-16-2015, 02:38 PM
they are all first time starters
Did not know but almost hoped they were. Would assume that all will be scoped after the race and it will be interesting to see how many will race with lasix next time. I would assume that at least 1/2 and probably 2/3'rds will scope with blood spots which would be about a 2-3 on a scale of 1-10 but enough to get on lasix next time. Just a guess.
lamboguy
07-16-2015, 03:11 PM
in my opinion, these horses have less of a chance of bleeding than if they ran with lasix.
they are going to have some type of ulcer medication in them that doesn't test and will not let the horse bleed, but in my opinion that stuff is more dangerous than lasix.
biggestal99
07-19-2015, 07:27 AM
23 raceday lasix-free 2 year old fillies are entered in two races at Gulfstream this Saturday.
22 make it into the gate. 22 cross the finish line.
Both races won by heavily bet Nicks runners. (no surprises)
Allan
magwell
07-19-2015, 09:25 AM
i am going to go on record after looking at the entries that no more than 1 horse in the 2 races will bleed visually.These are only 2 yr olds if any "bleed visually" that will be the end of this experiment ,it's doubtful any will though, now with old horses that's a different story with that many running........ IMO
lamboguy
07-19-2015, 10:30 AM
These are only 2 yr olds if any "bleed visually" that will be the end of this experiment ,it's doubtful any will though, now with old horses that's a different story with that many running........ IMOsir those horses have less of a chance of bleeding than the ones that are getting lasix.
magwell
07-19-2015, 10:37 AM
sir those horses have less of a chance of bleeding than the ones that are getting lasix.Because they are 2 yr olds making their first starts, they have less chance to bleed visually , it's the old horses without lasix that have the more probable chance to bleed visually.
lamboguy
07-19-2015, 10:45 AM
Because they are 2 yr olds making their first starts, they have less chance to bleed visually , it's the old horses without lasix that have the more probable chance to bleed visually.no you are wrong again. lasix doesn't stop bleeding to start out with, there are plenty of other things that these trainers are giving their horses so they don't bleed at all. i am not saying that these things are such great drugs in the long run, but i do happen to know that in Florida they don't test for them.
magwell
07-19-2015, 10:53 AM
no you are wrong again. lasix doesn't stop bleeding to start out with, there are plenty of other things that these trainers are giving their horses so they don't bleed at all. i am not saying that these things are such great drugs in the long run, but i do happen to know that in Florida they don't test for them.Lambo we have to end this conversation now please, we are on different frequency's ......;)
Because they are 2 yr olds making their first starts, they have less chance to bleed visually , it's the old horses without lasix that have the more probable chance to bleed visually.
So why are so many given Lasix for the first start? It has to be about 95% that get it from the jump.
magwell
07-19-2015, 12:37 PM
So why are so many given Lasix for the first start? It has to be about 95% that get it from the jump.Come on CJ you know it's to level the playing field.....
Come on CJ you know it's to level the playing field.....
Of course. It isn't to stop bleeding, that is my point.
magwell
07-19-2015, 01:58 PM
Of course. It isn't to stop bleeding, that is my point.It's to prevent bleeding also.........and you know that
lamboguy
07-19-2015, 02:09 PM
who ever said that lasix stops bleeding? it DOES NOT STOP BLEEDING, it helps to reduce bleeding in the lungs, but DOES NOT STOP BLEEDING.
Amicar is one thing that might prevent bleeding. there are other ulcer medications that i have seen that stop bleeding in its track.
if i had a horse that does bleed, i would chose to try to control it first with lasix before i went the other things that are being used.
It's to prevent bleeding also.........and you know that
No, I actually don't believe that, not in first time starters.
lamboguy
07-19-2015, 03:57 PM
No, I actually don't believe that, not in first time starters.it doesn't stop bleeding, but it does help to clean out things like mucus in the lungs that might hinder the horse from breathing 100% the same as it would do with a horse that bleeds. that is always the way i read lasix. if the horse can breath better, he can certainly run faster. even the horses that are treated with other stuff for a bleeding problem still get lasix.
i have to agree with you that lasix is used to help the horse run faster if that's what you are getting at. the other thing about the lasix is that if the horse does bleed while he is on the stuff it will help to prevent a lung infection.
sammy the sage
07-19-2015, 10:16 PM
the horse's PISS/urinate 20/30 lbs....they'll run faster...the hell w/the LONG term consequences....it IS what IT IS till it ain't...end of discussion...PERIOD...
yeah...I know it AIN'T for some around here...but don't LET FACTS get in your way...carry on... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
pandy
07-19-2015, 10:30 PM
So why are so many given Lasix for the first start? It has to be about 95% that get it from the jump.
They don't get lasix because they're bleeding, they get it because the owners feel they are at a disadvantage if they don't use it. Most racehorses don't need lasix, obviously, since they race horses and have bigger fields that we have here in many other countries outside of North America.
letswastemoney
07-19-2015, 10:30 PM
A friend once told me she did research and found Lasix promotes scar tissues in horses as they get older.
I'm inclined to believe her, although I need to read more. But, it doesn't seem likely something like Lasix can be taken for years without any side effects.
pandy
07-19-2015, 10:36 PM
McLaughlin runs a lot of two year olds and he has said that when he scopes the horses he runs without lasix less than 5% show any blood at all. These horses, especially the two year olds, do not need lasix.
sammy the sage
07-19-2015, 10:39 PM
McLaughlin runs a lot of two year olds and he has said that when he scopes the horses he runs without lasix less than 5% show any blood at all. These horses, especially the two year olds, do not need lasix.
thanks for MAKING MY point...
Ruffian1
07-20-2015, 08:01 AM
who ever said that lasix stops bleeding? it DOES NOT STOP BLEEDING, it helps to reduce bleeding in the lungs, but DOES NOT STOP BLEEDING.
Amicar is one thing that might prevent bleeding. there are other ulcer medications that i have seen that stop bleeding in its track.
if i had a horse that does bleed, i would chose to try to control it first with lasix before i went the other things that are being used.
Problem with Amicar is it is given AFTER the allowed deadline for ANY injectable's EXCEPT LASIX to be given. Unless the rules have changed, it would still be. No question it was when I was there. Everyone that had the vet give it, was breaking the rules of racing in doing so.
Nobody cared. Stewards? Nope. Management? Nope. MTHA? Nope.
Rules? What rules?
It was a joke. Sounds like it still is.
pandy
07-20-2015, 08:49 AM
A friend once told me she did research and found Lasix promotes scar tissues in horses as they get older.
I'm inclined to believe her, although I need to read more. But, it doesn't seem likely something like Lasix can be taken for years without any side effects.
All drugs have some side effects, and I would imagine that long term use of lasix is bad for horses in the long run. When you consider the fact that it is a drug that most horses don't need but get anyway, it's really unfair to the horses.
EMD4ME
07-20-2015, 08:52 AM
Problem with Amicar is it is given AFTER the allowed deadline for ANY injectable's EXCEPT LASIX to be given. Unless the rules have changed, it would still be. No question it was when I was there. Everyone that had the vet give it, was breaking the rules of racing in doing so.
Nobody cared. Stewards? Nope. Management? Nope. MTHA? Nope.
Rules? What rules?
It was a joke. Sounds like it still is.
That is why the states will never collaborate to create a unified national governing body, because they like creating their own informal rules.
Game is in trouble but that is again just stating the obvious.
chadk66
07-20-2015, 09:32 AM
boy the lack of knowledge in here on this subject is staggering.
lamboguy
07-20-2015, 09:40 AM
every horse that i have ever seen that is a bleeder and gets lasix still bleeds.
there are ulcer medications that they call "natural" that if given to a horse will STOP any bleeding. as far as i know it doesn't test anywhere in the world. a matter of fact, there are guys that sneak this stuff in horses in places where lasix is not allowed. don't believe for 1 second that those real fast turf horses around the world are not on this stuff.
no question that when a horse bleeds in his lungs it stops the horse. the bleeding part is very dangerous when it does get in the lungs and it can choke the horse at very worst case. lasix is supposed to prevent the blood from reaching the chest cavity where the lungs can get blocked with anything.
personally i am not a lasix fan, but i understand that when everyone else uses the stuff your horse is at a major disadvantage, flat out horses perform better when they are on it, at least most of them do. the one that comes to mind where it would cause a reaction was DON'T GET MAD.
pandy
07-20-2015, 09:44 AM
is there really proof that lasix is a significant performance enhancer?
castaway01
07-20-2015, 10:12 AM
is there really proof that lasix is a significant performance enhancer?
Hasn't the idea always been that it's used to mask other drugs due to its diuretic effects rather than itself enhancing performance?
Ruffian1
07-20-2015, 10:26 AM
Hasn't the idea always been that it's used to mask other drugs due to its diuretic effects rather than itself enhancing performance?
Well , yes, that was always the idea. And while in the early years it probably did help mask some illegal drugs, testing has come light years forward and that is not the same case it was back then.Having been out of the game for a while now, I am not up to speed on what all the cheating jerks are up to these days though. You would have to ask other more current players to see what the scum of the game is up to today.
pandy
07-20-2015, 10:31 AM
Hasn't the idea always been that it's used to mask other drugs due to its diuretic effects rather than itself enhancing performance?
Yes, but there are a lot of people who believe that lasix my itself enhances a horse's performances. That's the main reason why almost all of the horses in every race have lasix, the owner's feel that they're at a disadvantage without it.
Personally, I do not project improvement when I see a horse adding lasix for the first time. Some of the stats are misleading. For instance, some trainers don't add lasix until the second start so it looks like lasix improved the horse but many horses improve in second start anyway.
They don't get lasix because they're bleeding, they get it because the owners feel they are at a disadvantage if they don't use it. Most racehorses don't need lasix, obviously, since they race horses and have bigger fields that we have here in many other countries outside of North America.
Of course, which is why it is so bad. We are basically forcing horses to use a drug they don't need. It is also a drug that makes it tougher to recover and thus horses race less.
I've been around racing long enough to know the history of Lasix from illegal drug that many still used to where it is now that nearly all horses use it. The promises that were made remind me of the promises made about slots money. They sounded good on paper, but in reality it is all bs.
McLaughlin runs a lot of two year olds and he has said that when he scopes the horses he runs without lasix less than 5% show any blood at all. These horses, especially the two year olds, do not need lasix.
Right, and yet 1st L with his horses is a huge angle. It helps horses run faster, no doubt about it. People that don't believe that are nuts or blinded by some bias for Lasix. I'm just a bettor. I'm 100% convinced horses that don't use Lasix are at a competitive disadvantage.
All drugs have some side effects, and I would imagine that long term use of lasix is bad for horses in the long run. When you consider the fact that it is a drug that most horses don't need but get anyway, it's really unfair to the horses.
This has been my argument all along. Glad I'm not the only one.
is there really proof that lasix is a significant performance enhancer?
Absolutely, in my opinion. Horses run 3 to 5 lengths faster with Lasix than without. I'm talking about horses that don't bleed. But the horsemen debate this. Of course they have no idea how to truly measure speed, but they'll argue about it anyway.
TonyK@HSH
07-20-2015, 05:06 PM
One thing that should be noted is that a horse MUST bleed upon veterinary inspection before it can race on Lasix. A trainer cannot add Lasix arbitrarily.
So no horse should run on Lasix unless it has bled upon inspection after a race or morning workout.
pandy
07-20-2015, 05:12 PM
Absolutely, in my opinion. Horses run 3 to 5 lengths faster with Lasix than without. I'm talking about horses that don't bleed. But the horsemen debate this. Of course they have no idea how to truly measure speed, but they'll argue about it anyway.
3 to 5 lengths, that's a lot, wow. If that's true, then no wonder they all use it.
One thing that should be noted is that a horse MUST bleed upon veterinary inspection before it can race on Lasix. A trainer cannot add Lasix arbitrarily.
So no horse should run on Lasix unless it has bled upon inspection after a race or morning workout.
Getting Lasix approved is the equivalent of getting a grand jury indictment, maybe even easier.
chadk66
07-20-2015, 06:15 PM
Absolutely, in my opinion. Horses run 3 to 5 lengths faster with Lasix than without. I'm talking about horses that don't bleed. But the horsemen debate this. Of course they have no idea how to truly measure speed, but they'll argue about it anyway.as I've told you before, if you thought you could measure speed half as good as you think you'd be betting horses as your only source of income and eating lobster every night:cool:
as I've told you before, if you thought you could measure speed half as good as you think you'd be betting horses as your only source of income and eating lobster every night:cool:
You have no idea what I do and don't do for a living, and certainly not what I eat. Nice try though. No matter what I do though it will never be my only source of income for the rest of my life since I retired from the Air Force after 23 years (and 3 months).
as I've told you before, if you thought you could measure speed half as good as you think you'd be betting horses as your only source of income and eating lobster every night:cool:
If you knew half as much about training horses as you ... never mind.
magwell
07-20-2015, 07:27 PM
CJ It shows he doesn't bet horses or he would have known who you are, he's been here 2 yrs he owes you a apology partner........;)
ultracapper
07-21-2015, 12:03 AM
If you knew half as much about training horses as you ... never mind.
It took half an hour before this popped into your head? I can see it now, fuming over what he said, and this popping into your head, and BAM....Running like hell to the computer to post it.
Been there. Done that. HAHA.
It took half an hour before this popped into your head? I can see it now, fuming over what he said, and this popping into your head, and BAM....Running like hell to the computer to post it.
Been there. Done that. HAHA.
No, not hardly. I don't take anything here too seriously. I just want to give as good as I take.
chadk66
07-21-2015, 07:41 AM
cj's a legend in his own mind.
lamboguy
07-21-2015, 08:00 AM
CJ's not a guy that claims to have given his horses 10-15 cc's of lasix, i promise you that
Tall One
07-21-2015, 09:12 AM
It took half an hour before this popped into your head? I can see it now, fuming over what he said, and this popping into your head, and BAM....Running like hell to the computer to post it.
Been there. Done that. HAHA.
When Seinfeld imitates life... :D
PaceAdvantage
07-21-2015, 01:39 PM
cj's a legend in his own mind.Are you serious? This is your one warning to tone it down.
You're certainly able to conduct yourself in a civil manner. I'm really surprised at this crap coming from you. On the whole, I thought you were a good contributor around here. I have no clue where all this garbage is coming from. But I'm in no mood lately to tolerate such foolishness for very long.
I have never known there to be any requirement other than trainer's desire for a horse, first time starter or otherwise, to receive raceday lasix.
I wholeheartedly support the move by tracks to write no-lasix races and I hope it proves to be an expanding trend.
With or without lasix, race or work, I have never had a single horse show evidence of bleeding. I have seen a number of horses bleed though, in spite of lasix.
Bleeders need to be exempted from racing AND breeding.
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