Junior Alvarado - Belmont's 7th on 7/15

[SG4]

Considering the bashing of NYRA jockeys & other race fixing conspiracies that go on with this board, I'm surprised nobody has brought up Belmont's 7th race today and the less than enthusiastic ride delivered by Junior Alvarado in the final 1/8th of a mile aboard Blacktype. Considering he missed 2nd by a head & barely won a bob for 3rd, it was very curious to see a perceived lack of effort.

Then about 10 minutes after this race finishes they announce for the first time that there's a late jockey change & he's off his mount in the 8th race (the favorite). Watching the replay it looks like he pulls up weird like something's bothering his left arm. Does anybody have any info if there was an injury or something else to account for this string of events?

[Stillriledup]

Wow that looked ugly. Yikes.

[Striker]

David Grening said on twitter that Junior's shoulder popped out of the joint when he went to use the whip on Blacktype. He was taken to first aid and it is now popped back in, and he will ride thursday.

[Stillriledup]

I think if you're too injured to urge a horse I think you need some recovery time to protect the bettors, who's to say this wont happen again tomorrow?

[Valuist]

A couple things about the race. That was a damned tough allowance race. Basically a Grade 3 masquerading as an allowance.

But it looked real, real bad. I saw the part about the shoulder injury. Is that supposed to make everything OK? Imagine if you needed the 9 for 2nd in the exacta. Excuse or not, its not good for the game because the perception was it looked like he didn't want to win (or even run second).

I think SRU is right. If I was a steward I'd call him in and tell him I'd give him a warning this time, but injury or not, he'd be getting days the next time it happened.

[Stillriledup]

A couple things about the race. That was a damned tough allowance race. Basically a Grade 3 masquerading as an allowance.

But it looked real, real bad. I saw the part about the shoulder injury. Is that supposed to make everything OK? Imagine if you needed the 9 for 2nd in the exacta. Excuse or not, its not good for the game because the perception was it looked like he didn't want to win (or even run second).

This guy has a habit of not riding thru the wire, i would find it much easier to accept a medical excuse if A) the guy has a history of riding every mount thru the wire and B) he missed days after the injury, if you ride the next day it looks like youre lying.

But we know this is a horsemans game, Nothing will ever happen to them, this guy could fail to urge his next 100 mounts and there wont ever be a 1 penny fine or a 1 minute suspension.

[Valuist]

This guy has a habit of not riding thru the wire, i would find it much easier to accept a medical excuse if A) the guy has a history of riding every mount thru the wire and B) he missed days after the injury, if you ride the next day it looks like youre lying.

But we know this is a horsemans game, Nothing will ever happen to them, this guy could fail to urge his next 100 mounts and there wont ever be a 1 penny fine or a 1 minute suspension.

When sports betting is legalized and that day IS coming it will be a huge blow to racing, and maybe at that point, the horsemen will realize the errors of their ways. But then again, they probably won't.

[jk3521]

A couple things about the race. That was a damned tough allowance race. Basically a Grade 3 masquerading as an allowance.

But it looked real, real bad. I saw the part about the shoulder injury. Is that supposed to make everything OK? Imagine if you needed the 9 for 2nd in the exacta. Excuse or not, its not good for the game because the perception was it looked like he didn't want to win (or even run second).

I think SRU is right. If I was a steward I'd call him in and tell him I'd give him a warning this time, but injury or not, he'd be getting days the next time it happened.
Off with Junior's head ! :lol:

[Stillriledup]

A couple things about the race. That was a damned tough allowance race. Basically a Grade 3 masquerading as an allowance.

But it looked real, real bad. I saw the part about the shoulder injury. Is that supposed to make everything OK? Imagine if you needed the 9 for 2nd in the exacta. Excuse or not, its not good for the game because the perception was it looked like he didn't want to win (or even run second).

I think SRU is right. If I was a steward I'd call him in and tell him I'd give him a warning this time, but injury or not, he'd be getting days the next time it happened.

I would have a simple policy, if you want to use the i couldnt ride out my mount due to injury excuse, i would require a much tougher standard to be cleared to ride again after 7 mandatory days off to recover.

If you suffer a serious enough injury that you cant ride out a mount, how is that fair to the players if youre back riding the next day?

[Valuist]

I would have a simple policy, if you want to use the i couldnt ride out my mount due to injury excuse, i would require a much tougher standard to be cleared to ride again after 7 mandatory days off to recover.

If you suffer a serious enough injury that you cant ride out a mount, how is that fair to the players if youre back riding the next day?

And "going to the first aid tent" isn't sufficient. We have no idea who's back there or what happened. Medical trainers? A doctor? Maybe he just got a drink of water.

I'm not trying to imply he was faking the injury, but going to the first aid tent and then claiming you are ok does not create confidence from the public that he had a reason to stiff the horse late in the race. Like it or not, perception is everything.

[Stillriledup]

And "going to the first aid tent" isn't sufficient. We have no idea who's back there or what happened. Medical trainers? A doctor? Maybe he just got a drink of water.

I'm not trying to imply he was faking the injury, but going to the first aid tent and then claiming you are ok does not create confidence from the public that he had a reason to stiff the horse late in the race. Like it or not, perception is everything.

Exactly. I would have a much easier time "buying" this if he missed time going fwd.

[EMD4ME]

Exactly. I would have a much easier time "buying" this if he missed time going fwd.

Exactly :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Exactly :ThmbUp:
Even if he misses ONE DAY i would buy it. (and its not like me to buy what jocks are selling). :D

[cj]

How do we know it didn't happen during the race?

[Ruffian1]

This guy has a habit of not riding thru the wire, i would find it much easier to accept a medical excuse if A) the guy has a history of riding every mount thru the wire and B) he missed days after the injury, if you ride the next day it looks like youre lying.

But we know this is a horsemans game, Nothing will ever happen to them, this guy could fail to urge his next 100 mounts and there wont ever be a 1 penny fine or a 1 minute suspension.


Horsemen and track management are two different groups.

Please recognize which group is involved. This is clearly stewards and management NOT horsemen. and that is probably what you meant but with all the grief I hear about horsemen, plenty of which is justified, this is a management issue all the way.

[Valuist]

How do we know it didn't happen during the race?

Does it matter? I would assume the injury happened during the race. Most of the jock injuries are from falls during a race, and the public has no problem understanding the rider is hurt. But when you pull your horse in the final furlong, disappear to the first aid tent, then announce all is good, something stinks. Maybe the excuse is legit; maybe it isn't. No trip to the hospital, no publicly getting clearance from a doctor to ride. It just doesn't look good. And the sport doesn't need more shaky ground. There needs to be specific policy on this.

[Stillriledup]

Horsemen and track management are two different groups.

Please recognize which group is involved. This is clearly stewards and management NOT horsemen. and that is probably what you meant but with all the grief I hear about horsemen, plenty of which is justified, this is a management issue all the way.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Valuist]

I'd say give the rider a mandatory one day (minimum) time off. Probably best for many riders anyways. Sometimes adrenaline and shock can temporarily mask pain. Some guys are probably back riding before they should be.

[Ruffian1]

Does it matter? I would assume the injury happened during the race. Most of the jock injuries are from falls during a race, and the public has no problem understanding the rider is hurt. But when you pull your horse in the final furlong, disappear to the first aid tent, then announce all is good, something stinks. Maybe the excuse is legit; maybe it isn't. No trip to the hospital, no publicly getting clearance from a doctor to ride. It just doesn't look good. And the sport doesn't need more shaky ground. There needs to be specific policy on this.

This is where the Stewards come in. If they see this questionable ride, and document it, then hear the circumstances, then order the jockey to the first aid room, at that point he is not able to ride without a doctors OK. That rule has been in place forever, unless it recently changed, which would not surprise me as very little does these days.

So, the rule is actually there and in place. What I find frustrating is that the Stewards could request this for the safety of horses, jockey's AND the betting public. But I rarely hear of such a thing. Want to win over fan confidence? Announce this to the public as it takes place, just like concussion protocol in the NFL.
It is up to Management to get the Stewards to think this way. But... they don't and we all know why. No voice from the customer. Everything is internal with no regard for the player. If you think about it, it is incredible that something like the system currently in place still exists.

[cj]

Does it matter? I would assume the injury happened during the race. Most of the jock injuries are from falls during a race, and the public has no problem understanding the rider is hurt. But when you pull your horse in the final furlong, disappear to the first aid tent, then announce all is good, something stinks. Maybe the excuse is legit; maybe it isn't. No trip to the hospital, no publicly getting clearance from a doctor to ride. It just doesn't look good. And the sport doesn't need more shaky ground. There needs to be specific policy on this.

Sure it matters. He got hurt and couldn't ride. It was made public what happened. The information was available and I had no reason not to believe it. At some point everything isn't a conspiracy. Shit happens.

[Ruffian1]

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

You said it is a horseman's game but this is all about the Stewards and management and they are not considered horsemen.
Not being sensitive, just pointing out that they are 2 entirely different entities, that's all.:ThmbUp:

[SuperPickle]

So I think everyone is missing something. Belmont has a track doctor. I'm sure the doctor has to clear him to ride when he returns. So if the doctor cleared him and said he could ride and the first aid guys confirmed his shoulder was out after the race I'm not seeing what the issue is.

The idea he should sit for a time is silly if a medical professional confirmed his story and a medical professional cleared him to ride.

You're essentially saying you would suspend him "just to be on the safe side."

[Valuist]

Sure it matters. He got hurt and couldn't ride. It was made public what happened. The information was available and I had no reason not to believe it. At some point everything isn't a conspiracy. Shit happens.

I didn't bet Belmont on Wednesday and obviously wasn't there. Did Collmus make the announcement that he was hurt? Did TVG/HRTV disclose what happened? If so, then I stand corrected. If not, there's still a problem.

[Ruffian1]

I didn't bet Belmont on Wednesday and obviously wasn't there. Did Collmus make the announcement that he was hurt? Did TVG/HRTV disclose what happened? If so, then I stand corrected. If not, there's still a problem.

Hopefully he announced he was hurt, then followed up with the announcement that he was seen and ok'ed by the doctor to continue.
That is on the Stewards to have Larry say that.

[cj]

I didn't bet Belmont on Wednesday and obviously wasn't there. Did Collmus make the announcement that he was hurt? Did TVG/HRTV disclose what happened? If so, then I stand corrected. If not, there's still a problem.


I don't know all the avenues through which it was disclosed. But it was widely known so I'm assuming it was done on at least one of those above, probably all.

[Robert Fischer]

ok, i will change the rule after i have a late lunch.

[Stillriledup]

ok, i will change the rule after i have a late lunch.

Thank you! (shameless post to add to post count) :D

[Robert Fischer]

I was going to type out that a standard universal rule for a day off + stewards investigation following an injury claim on a failure to persevere would be good policy, and that other things about a riders history or whether he was willing to ride the next race or day were silly, - but then I realized these posts are unlikely to change the policy. :D

[Stillriledup]

So I think everyone is missing something. Belmont has a track doctor. I'm sure the doctor has to clear him to ride when he returns. So if the doctor cleared him and said he could ride and the first aid guys confirmed his shoulder was out after the race I'm not seeing what the issue is.

The idea he should sit for a time is silly if a medical professional confirmed his story and a medical professional cleared him to ride.

You're essentially saying you would suspend him "just to be on the safe side."

Medical professionals aside, i have a problem with a jock not urging a horse due to injury and then riding the next day like nothing happened.

[no breathalyzer]

Sure looked good just now in Bel 6th race :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Sure looked good just now in Bel 5Th race :lol:

Ftfy.

Of course he looked good, straight and strong as ever.

[no breathalyzer]

This guy has a habit of not riding thru the wire, i would find it much easier to accept a medical excuse if A) the guy has a history of riding every mount thru the wire and B) he missed days after the injury, if you ride the next day it looks like youre lying.

But we know this is a horsemans game, Nothing will ever happen to them, this guy could fail to urge his next 100 mounts and there wont ever be a 1 penny fine or a 1 minute suspension.
HE DOES? I think this thread is shit by the way... the guy popped his shoulder. it was verified .. its all public information...( if you been paying att. and think its an edge then fire away) if you don't like it then don't bet him.

[Stillriledup]

HE DOES? I think this thread is shit by the way... the guy popped his shoulder. it was verified .. its all public information...( if you been paying att. and think its an edge then fire away) if you don't like it then don't bet him.

Yes he does, google it.

As far as not betting him gee thanks ill take that under consideration.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not trying to imply he was faking the injury,Of course you are

[Stillriledup]

Of course you are

V man must have forgotten than jocks are all upstanding citizens who put the wagering customer and the game first, silly him for wanting protocol for this type of stiff, i mean, stuff. You cant ride a horse thru the wire due to serious injury, you should miss time till you're healed, doesnt seem like rocket science.

[PaceAdvantage]

V man must have forgotten than jocks are all upstanding citizens who put the wagering customer and the game first, silly him for wanting protocol for this type of stiff, i mean, stuff. You cant ride a horse thru the wire due to serious injury, you should miss time till you're healed, doesnt seem like rocket science.You and V man are lunatics apparently.

In the land of lunatic threads, this one seems to have taken the cake, and that's no easy feat...I'm starting to doubt my sanity at this point considering you're still able to post here.

And I see you just had to bump a stale thread with the profound question of "who's more of a clown"

Seriously man?

Oh, and you'll come back with some calm and peaceful reply about how you're just trying to do right by the bettor...then EMD4ME and thaskalos will come by and say you're their favorite poster...

I'm starting to feel like I've been punk'd the past couple of years reading this crapola.

[no breathalyzer]

Yes he does, google it.

As far as not betting him gee thanks ill take that under consideration.

I couldn't find anything :confused:

[Valuist]

Of course you are


No, I wasn't.

I also said IF all the information was made public, I stood corrected. Others on here felt it was public enough.

I also don't think SRU is a lunatic for asking questions about it. I guess horse bettors are so cynical they just expect stuff like this.

[PaceAdvantage]

No, I wasn't.

I also said IF all the information was made public, I stood corrected. Others on here felt it was public enough.

I also don't think SRU is a lunatic for asking questions about it. I guess horse bettors are so cynical they just expect stuff like this.When it became known the ride was due to injury, then all nonsense should have stopped right there. But it did not.

The first couple of times this happened years ago, it was kinda cute...kinda fun..."oh look at him...he's a rebel...he questions everything..."

But after the one millionth time...when we're at the point where EVERYTHING IS A CONSPIRACY TO SCREW SRU and co. out of their $2...well...enough becomes enough, don't you think?

How about a little rationality now and then? That's now become the novel approach... :lol:

[Valuist]

Then there's other part of it. If a guy makes his living riding horses, and his shoulder pops out of joint randomly during the running of a race, it may be time to start considering what one will do after race riding. The body doesn't wear down less with age.

I have no axe to grind with Alvarado. I watched him ride at AP before he went to NY. I owned a filly in partnership back then that he rode at least once. He has talent. But if the shoulder popped out yesterday, it can happen again.

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you actually doubling down on your faulty thinking process? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

When it became known the ride was due to injury, then all nonsense should have stopped right there. But it did not.

The first couple of times this happened years ago, it was kinda cute...kinda fun..."oh look at him...he's a rebel...he questions everything..."

But after the one millionth time...when we're at the point where EVERYTHING IS A CONSPIRACY TO SCREW SRU and co. out of their $2...well...enough becomes enough, don't you think?

How about a little rationality now and then? That's now become the novel approach... :lol:

Why is it a bad thing to require a jock to miss a few days at least after he's incapacitated and can't urge a horse?

[PaceAdvantage]

Why is it a bad thing to require a jock to miss a few days at least after he's incapacitated and can't urge a horse?Another one doubling down on insanity.

The answers you seek are found in a rare book published ages ago entitled:

INTRO TO COMMON SENSE

[Stillriledup]

Another one doubling down on insanity.

The answers you seek are found in a rare book published ages ago entitled:

INTRO TO COMMON SENSE

Im not following.

[PaceAdvantage]

Im not following.And you want to be my latex salesman?

[PaceAdvantage]

You're not following? Yet we're supposed to take you as some sort of guardian of the betting masses? Overseer of all that is unholy in the game? The man looking to right the wrongs? The guy who points out the "obvious" cheating to the unwashed masses?

Yet you can't even see the common sense laying right before your eyes?

OK. The reason why he shouldn't have to sit out a few days after incurring an injury that made it impossible for him to ride at full effort during the race in which said injury occurred.....is......because...the said injury was HEALED by popping the shoulder back into place.

Why, here's an example from the sport of professional baseball:

http://www.totalprosports.com/2012/08/13/brandon-inge-dislocated-shoulder-oakland-a-video/

[Stillriledup]

You're not following? Yet we're supposed to take you as some sort of guardian of the betting masses? Overseer of all that is unholy in the game? The man looking to right the wrongs? The guy who points out the "obvious" cheating to the unwashed masses?

Yet you can't even see the common sense laying right before your eyes?

OK. The reason why he shouldn't have to sit out a few days after incurring an injury that made it impossible for him to ride at full effort during the race in which said injury occurred.....is......because...the said injury was HEALED by popping the shoulder back into place.

Why, here's an example from the sport of professional baseball:

http://www.totalprosports.com/2012/08/13/brandon-inge-dislocated-shoulder-oakland-a-video/


Yes all healed, back to 100 pct. good to know.

[PaceAdvantage]

You mean 100% like every other jockey out there? And horse?

Because we all know every jockey and horse running on the track is 100% healthy. No aches or pains at all.

Time for you to shove all in...

[Stillriledup]

You mean 100% like every other jockey out there? And horse?

Because we all know every jockey and horse running on the track is 100% healthy. No aches or pains at all.

Time for you to shove all in...

Just looking out for the safety of horse and rider, it won't kill anyone for this guy to take a few days off.

[cj]

Just looking out for the safety of horse and rider, it won't kill anyone for this guy to take a few days off.

It might kill him. He is an independent contractor that doesn't get paid if he doesn't ride.

[Robert Fischer]

changing the policy may be logical


but trying to speculate about a guy race-to-race or day to day, and weighing factors such as your book on the guy's reputation, starts to muck up the good ideas of a possibly logical policy change.

[Stillriledup]

It might kill him. He is an independent contractor that doesn't get paid if he doesn't ride.

Bettors dont get paid if he doesnt ride thru the wire either. If he cant take a week off and still make a living as a rider, it might be time to find another chapter.

[cj]

Bettors dont get paid if he doesnt ride thru the wire either. If he cant take a week off and still make a living as a rider, it might be time to find another chapter.

A whole bunch of people can't take off a week without pay, not just jockeys.

[Stillriledup]

A whole bunch of people can't take off a week without pay, not just jockeys.
It's a tough call. But if you can't ride through the wire, that puts bettors in harms way as well as the horses and other jocks. Maybe a week rest will prevent him from sustaining a more serious injury that requires months on the shelf.

[cj]

It's a tough call. But if you can't ride through the wire, that puts bettors in harms way as well as the horses and other jocks. Maybe a week rest will prevent him from sustaining a more serious injury that requires months on the shelf.

You're just trolling, thread is now closed to you only. Please cooperate and don't make me delete posts.

[EMD4ME]

You and V man are lunatics apparently.

In the land of lunatic threads, this one seems to have taken the cake, and that's no easy feat...I'm starting to doubt my sanity at this point considering you're still able to post here.

And I see you just had to bump a stale thread with the profound question of "who's more of a clown"

Seriously man?

Oh, and you'll come back with some calm and peaceful reply about how you're just trying to do right by the bettor...then EMD4ME and thaskalos will come by and say you're their favorite poster...

I'm starting to feel like I've been punk'd the past couple of years reading this crapola.

Hello,

I am new here. I want to make my vote for poster of the year, SRU :) but I'm lost amongst these threads. Can you direct me?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry....I just couldn't resist. I busted 1 1/2 lungs laughing reading all this in the last 5 minutes.

[EMD4ME]

In all seriousness. His issue/story does sound reasonable. He popped his shoulder out during the race, they popped it back in and it's not an injury that takes weeks to heal.

It's definitely plausible.

Now, if it happens twice in a crucial moment, then shame on him for pulling the wool over our eyes.

[SG4]

Thanks for the replies confirming what happened, looked like it might've been a shoulder dislocation from the way he went up to strike the horse & then suddenly shut himself down, but regarding this info being made public I didn't see any mention of it as of last night on Junior's own twitter feed, NYRA news, DRF or Bloodhorse, so a mention on at least one of these places would've been useful. Maybe it's time to get on that Grening twitter feed myself.

Seen it a number of times in other sports where a joint pops out & they run off to the side, doc pops it back in & they're good to go again, first time I've ever seen a jockey having it affect them mid-race though. Guess this result just falls in the really bad luck end, can't quite bring myself to chastise a guy for not riding hard with one arm.