4 all time livving legends no Schimdt

[Kash$]

Last night they celebrated 4 all time great living legends..

No Mike Schimdt...

My vote Schimdt over Bench and Koufax..

[tucker6]

I thought they picked Bench because the game was in Cincy...

Living legends are Mays, Schmidt, Rose, Ryan

Ryan had 5,714 strike outs. Koufax had 2,396.
Ryan had 324 wins. Koufax had 165.
Ryan had an ERA of 3.19. Koufax had 2.76.
Ryan played 27 years. Koufax played 12.

I loved Sandy Koufax, but it isn't really close.

Schmidt had 2,234 hits. Bench had 2,048.
Schmidt had 1,595 RBI's. Bench had 1,376.
Schmidt had 548 homers. Bench had 389.
Both had a batting average of .267

Again, I love Johnny Bench, but it isn't really close, especially when you consider Schmidt's defensive prowess.

[Tor Ekman]

Tom Seaver must be on that list

[tucker6]

After seeing the Hank Aaron stats, I would remove Rose and put Hank in there. His stats are better than both Mays and Schmidt by a long shot.

[tucker6]

Tom Seaver must be on that list
3,640 strike outs
311 wins
ERA of 2.86
played 20 years

Definitely in the mix, but don't think that beats Ryan. Amazing that they were on the same team at one time. Both beat Koufax hands down imo.

[tucker6]

If you wish to compare living legend catchers, then there is Yogi Berra against Johnny Bench.

Bench had BA of .267. Berra had .286
Bench had 2,048 hits. Berra had 2,150
Bench had 1,376 RBI's. Berra had 1,430
Bench had 389 homers. Berra had 358

Pretty close, but I'd give the nod here to Yogi based on batting average being that much better. Wouldn't argue against either guy though.

[Kash$]

I thought they picked Bench because the game was in Cincy...

Living legends are Mays, Schmidt, Rose, Ryan

Ryan had 5,714 strike outs. Koufax had 2,396.
Ryan had 324 wins. Koufax had 165.
Ryan had an ERA of 3.19. Koufax had 2.76.
Ryan played 27 years. Koufax played 12.

I loved Sandy Koufax, but it isn't really close.

Schmidt had 2,234 hits. Bench had 2,048.
Schmidt had 1,595 RBI's. Bench had 1,376.
Schmidt had 548 homers. Bench had 389.
Both had a batting average of .267

Again, I love Johnny Bench, but it isn't really close, especially when you consider Schmidt's defensive prowess.

Agree Tucker

[LottaKash]

Pretty close, but I'd give the nod here to Yogi based on batting average being that much better. Wouldn't argue against either guy though.

As an added bonus, Yogi had a special way with words too.... :D

[Tor Ekman]

3,640 strike outs
311 wins
ERA of 2.86
played 20 years

Definitely in the mix, but don't think that beats Ryan.
Nolan Ryan is a glorified .500 pitcher, who couldn't shine Seaver's cleats.

[tucker6]

Nolan Ryan is a glorified .500 pitcher, who couldn't shine Seaver's cleats.
I honestly believe Seaver was a better pitcher overall, who if I were forming a team, I would select Seaver ahead of Ryan. However, Ryan had an impressive career outside his win record. Using your criteria, Koufax would be better than Seaver. He had a 65% win rate, while Seaver had a 60%, and Ryan a 53%.

To give a little perspective, Babe Ruth had a 67% win rate while pitching and a .342 batting average and 2200+ RBI's and 714 homers while fielding. Not bad for a fat guy. ;)

[Valuist]

Here's the top 10 living career WAR (wins above replacement) numbers. Obviously, there's some PED users in here:

1. Barry Bonds 162
2. Mays 156
3. Aaron 143
4. Clemens 140
5. A Rod 118
6. Henderson 111
7. Seaver 110
8. Frank Robinson 107
Maddux 107
10. Schmidt 106

No Rose, no Ryan. And with the debate about Bench and Rose, it should be noted there's two players who did play for the Reds who were ranked higher (Seaver & Frank Robinson).

[Tall One]

Ryan, Schmiddy, former Red Leg Tom Seaver all deserved to be out there. But, the old school route they went was a nice touch. If they really wanted to do something special, Rose instead of Bench.

Regarding Bench, he should be in the conversation with Yogi as one of the best catchers to play the game, and I'm not even a Reds fan.

[Tor Ekman]

Although Seaver played for the Reds he is forever a Met, aka "The Franchise"

[OTM Al]

Here's the top 10 living career WAR (wins above replacement) numbers. Obviously, there's some PED users in here:

1. Barry Bonds 162
2. Mays 156
3. Aaron 143
4. Clemens 140
5. A Rod 118
6. Henderson 111
7. Seaver 110
8. Frank Robinson 107
Maddux 107
10. Schmidt 106

No Rose, no Ryan. And with the debate about Bench and Rose, it should be noted there's two players who did play for the Reds who were ranked higher (Seaver & Frank Robinson).

Also a bunch of amphetamine users too. Strike out both groups and who do you have left? I would pick Mays, Aaron and Rodriguez as players off the list and would have a tough time picking between Seaver and Maddux as the pitcher in the group.

[MutuelClerk]

Did Bob Gibson pass away? Having Ryan on that list is laughable. So many great players to choose from.

[AndyC]

Ryan had 5,714 strike outs. Koufax had 2,396.
Ryan had 324 wins. Koufax had 165.
Ryan had an ERA of 3.19. Koufax had 2.76.
Ryan played 27 years. Koufax played 12.

I loved Sandy Koufax, but it isn't really close.

If you are basing your measurements on purely longevity Ryan is tough to beat. The last 5 years that Koufax pitched were better than any single year that Ryan pitched and that isn't really close!

[Robert Fischer]

Nolan Ryan gets beat-down sometimes by the stats geeks, and they probably have a point (when talking pure efficiency), but he is a 'legend' in every sense of the word.

http://thepitchingacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nolan-ryan-247x300.jpg

The talent, the work-ethic, the effort, the consistency.

2 ballplayers from that era that I looked up to; Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken. Lot of similarities.

Unless longevity and positional adjustments are factored(in other words unless you come up with a measurement tailored to these guy's strengths), neither guy will pop the glasses off a stats geek during an excel readout.

Both played the game the right way. They took their great talent and then they went ahead and matched it with work ethic and class.

Any ticket from these guys primes was worth the price of admission.
The fans always knew they were seeing legends.
They made grownups feel like kids again, and they made kids feel like ballplayers.

[Marshall Bennett]

Ryan pitched on some awful teams, as did Steve Carlton. A few quarterbacks have the same issue with respect. Archie Manning and Sonny Jurgensen come to mind.

[ronsmac]

Also a bunch of amphetamine users too. Strike out both groups and who do you have left? I would pick Mays, Aaron and Rodriguez as players off the list and would have a tough time picking between Seaver and Maddux as the pitcher in the group.Aaron admitted to amphetamine use, but he said he only did it one time. Yeah right.

[Stillriledup]

I thought they picked Bench because the game was in Cincy...

Living legends are Mays, Schmidt, Rose, Ryan

Ryan had 5,714 strike outs. Koufax had 2,396.
Ryan had 324 wins. Koufax had 165.
Ryan had an ERA of 3.19. Koufax had 2.76.
Ryan played 27 years. Koufax played 12.

I loved Sandy Koufax, but it isn't really close.

Schmidt had 2,234 hits. Bench had 2,048.
Schmidt had 1,595 RBI's. Bench had 1,376.
Schmidt had 548 homers. Bench had 389.
Both had a batting average of .267

Again, I love Johnny Bench, but it isn't really close, especially when you consider Schmidt's defensive prowess.

It's close if you factor in that Bench was a catcher which is much more physically demanding, his offensive numbers would suffer greatly, they would be much better if he was just a hitter and didnt play defense. He also was a factor on every pitch of every game, so we really can't quantify his effect on the game in that regard.

[Marshall Bennett]

Aaron and Mays were amazing. Not including them both would have been flat-out stupid. Mays in particular, tried harder and had more heart in baseball then anyone else I've watched play.

[reckless]

A bigger joke is the New York Mets Franchise Four list.

Tom Seaver and Mike Piazza are no-brainers. No problem.

But, having Keith Hernandez and David Wright as the other two? Gimme a break!

Neither of these two should be in the same conversation as true Mets legends John Franco, Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry.

Heck, Hernandez played more years with the Cardinals than he did with the Mets.

[Tall One]

No Mookie, no care.. ;)

[TJDave]

If you wish to compare living legend catchers, then there is Yogi Berra against Johnny Bench.

Bench had BA of .267. Berra had .286
Bench had 2,048 hits. Berra had 2,150
Bench had 1,376 RBI's. Berra had 1,430
Bench had 389 homers. Berra had 358

Pretty close, but I'd give the nod here to Yogi based on batting average being that much better. Wouldn't argue against either guy though.

I would argue for Bench. Yes, Berra had the better stats but he also had better pitching. Bench called a better game. Got the most out of his pitchers.

[RichieP]

No Mookie, no care.. ;)

Moooookie! :) :ThmbUp:

[horses4courses]

I didn't get how they came about choosing those they honored last night.

Apart from the fact that Willie Mays may not be around to attend to many more
All Star games, and Hank Aaron is also pretty advanced in years, I felt the choice of Sandy Koufax was peculiar.
Bench was obviously chosen because of it being held in Cincinnati. It just didn't really add up.

Always great to see Mays and Aaron getting ovations, though.
Sandy Koufax impressed me, too, by throwing a perfect strike to Bench :ThmbUp:

Perhaps, from now on, if they want to honor great players they could
get a bigger group of them together for the ceremony?

[tucker6]

A bigger joke is the New York Mets Franchise Four list.

Tom Seaver and Mike Piazza are no-brainers. No problem.

But, having Keith Hernandez and David Wright as the other two? Gimme a break!

Neither of these two should be in the same conversation as true Mets legends John Franco, Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry.

Heck, Hernandez played more years with the Cardinals than he did with the Mets.
For laughs, the Mets can claim Yogi Berra and Willie Mays as all time greats for their team. Even if, as in Berra's case, it was only for four games. :)

[Rise Over Run]

Heck, Hernandez played more years with the Cardinals than he did with the Mets.

Yeah, but he was with the Mets for the infamous Seinfeld spitting incident.

[Valuist]

Also a bunch of amphetamine users too. Strike out both groups and who do you have left? I would pick Mays, Aaron and Rodriguez as players off the list and would have a tough time picking between Seaver and Maddux as the pitcher in the group.

Maybe. I personally don't think that amphetamines were anywhere as bad for the game as PEDs were. Amphetamines are basically like caffeine and wear off quickly. Not the case with roids. Amphetamines don't make guys gain 30-35 pounds in the offseason; or increase their bench by 150 pounds or their squat by 250, or make guys hat sizes increase.

I put the blame straight on Selig. He knew and did nothing. Now we have 15-20 years worth of stats that are pretty meaningless.

[reckless]

Yeah, but he was with the Mets for the infamous Seinfeld spitting incident.

Ahh, the Magic Loogie episode, a show that paid 'homage' to actor Wayne Knight (Newman). The episode was broadcast about the time of the movie JFK and Wayne Knight had a bit part in that movie.

[reckless]

For laughs, the Mets can claim Yogi Berra and Willie Mays as all time greats for their team. Even if, as in Berra's case, it was only for four games. :)

Yes, tucker6 you are correct. :) I was at the Mayors Trophy Game one year when Yogi managed the Mets and he sent himself up to bat as a pinch hitter!
I only saw Mays play once play as a kid when the Giants visited the Polo Grounds. Roger Craig picked off Mays off first base that night. (Five days later pitching against the Dodgers, Craig picked Maury Wills off first too!)

It's safe to say they really are the two best players in NY Mets history although I'll always remember both Rod Kanehl and Al Moran quite fondly.

[Johnny V]

For laughs, the Mets can claim Yogi Berra and Willie Mays as all time greats for their team. Even if, as in Berra's case, it was only for four games. :)
Yogi came over to the Mets as a coach after managing the Yankees the year before. He got a total of 9 at bats for the Mets as a coach and got two hits. I remember when Berra came to bat one time as a Met in one of those 9 at bats as a pinch hitter with the bases loaded and just missed a grand slam going foul by a few feet. You gotta like Yogi.