Cigar-How great?

[EMD4ME]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYg2qKlg100

Stumbled across this MAGNIFICENT performance in 1996 and wanted to see how people on here feel about the "Incomparable, invincible, unbeatable Cigar".

True story... It was either very late October or early November 1994. My buddy and I were at Aqueduct. I had my notebook with me and was writing down the day's races, splits, bias notes, etc. The day concluded and as soon as I was assessing what had happened that day, I turned to my friend and said : "We saw a complete monster today". I was just 18 years old, was a sophmore in college and had of course, cut out of school for the day to attend the races at Aqueduct.

My friend said: "You're nuts. There were no champions out there today. Let's get to Jersey (Meadowlands) before we miss the 1st".

I told him I will save my next paycheck, next 2 paychecks and bet it all on this horse, named Cigar wherever he shows up next.

My buddy said, he's 1 for 12 or 1 for 13. He just won an N1X. You're insane...

We didn't have stable mail at that time LOL. So I anxiously kept checking the Daily News for "Cigar" in the entries. I read somewhere he'd show up in the NYRA mile as part of the Thanksgiving weekend stake races. I salivated.

I bet $400 bucks, 2 WEEKS PAY, on Cigar and he DEMOLISHED that group, paying from what I remember $14 or $18. Little did I know, that he would win the next 14 (after that) in a row.

What a parlay THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN LOL!!!!

Anyway, as I watch this replay, I can't help but say to myself, "How many horses of the past 10 years have replicated such an awesome performance like this?"

How many horses can run 5 wide around the clubhouse turn, stay uncovered 4-5 wide on the backstretch THROUGH REAL fractions, sustain it 3-4 wide around the far turn and then burn away from legitimate Grade 1 horses?

How many can do it, 16 times in a row, across the country, against all comers (and many times GOING TO THEM)?

How great was this horse?

[horses4courses]

He was okay, I guess

[lamboguy]

there have been some really great horses and i think its very tough to say that one was better than the other.

2 of my favorites other than CIGAR were HOLY BULL and FOREGO.

today i think we now have an international sprinting star in the making with MASOCHISTIC.

those are all very exciting horses and the kind that bring fans to the track.

there have been others that i thought would have had great career's as older horses if they ran. the horse that really impressed me was EMPIRE MAKER as a 3 year old.

[DeltaLover]

Cigar evolved to become one of the top horses of his era. His long winning streak, makes him look better that what he really was though..

[EMD4ME]

He was okay, I guess

How many horses were okay, like Cigar, in your opinion, in the last 10 years H4C?

[EMD4ME]

Cigar evolved to become one of the top horses of his era. His long winning streak, makes him look better that what he really was though..

Please expand. I thought Zenyatta was completely over rated, because she found a few cream puffs to dominate, on her preferred surface, over and over again and created her winning streak by staying more often than not, at home against weak foes. Yes, she won on dirt a couple of times, yes she won the BC Classic, with a perfect trip on her surface but I always felt insulted that people would even put her in the same sentence as Cigar.

Nothing was more satisfactory, then sitting next to you (cheering along with your friend-the contractor) cheering Blame home in the classic.

To me that was justice personified.

Is that how you feel about Cigar? That his streak was tainted, like I do about Zenyatta?

[EMD4ME]

there have been some really great horses and i think its very tough to say that one was better than the other.

2 of my favorites other than CIGAR were HOLY BULL and FOREGO.

today i think we now have an international sprinting star in the making with MASOCHISTIC.

those are all very exciting horses and the kind that bring fans to the track.

there have been others that i thought would have had great career's as older horses if they ran. the horse that really impressed me was EMPIRE MAKER as a 3 year old.


I too Loved Holy Bull. That was a blanken racehorse. Guts personified.

I can't speak for Forego. Without watching him, I would also say he was way above Cigar. I've heard so much about him, my head spins.

Sticking to the last 10 years, anyone better than Cigar? Comparable to Cigar, in your opinion?

[horses4courses]

How many horses were okay, like Cigar, in your opinion, in the last 10 years H4C?

Umm....Dare and Go, Alphabet Soup?

My turn to redboard now.
I bet him pretty good to win the Pacific Classic in 1996.

I, also, had Alphabet Soup in BC Classic futures, along with 4 or 5 others.
They were great value due to all the hype on Cigar, as he was over the top
by then.

[DeltaLover]

Please expand. I thought Zenyatta was completely over rated, because she found a few cream puffs to dominate, on her preferred surface, over and over again and created her winning streak by staying more often than not, at home against weak foes. Yes, she won on dirt a couple of times, yes she won the BC Classic, with a perfect trip on her surface but I always felt insulted that people would even put her in the same sentence as Cigar.

Nothing was more satisfactory, then sitting next you (cheering along with your friend-the contractor) cheering Blame home in the classic.

To me that was justice personified.

Is that how you feel about Cigar? That his streak was tainted, like I do about Zenyatta?

Cigar was one of the top horses of his era... His greatest wins were in BCC and DWC.. Still, he had a very humble career start plus he failed to win the BCC for second time..

I do not have input to classify Z in the same league as C. Maybe if her connections had been less conservative, it could have been different, but the facts say that out of the two times she face open G1 company she won and lost once a time.

For me a really great horse, is either one that had an exceptional 3yo carreer (like American Pharoah, Curlin, Secretariat or Citation) or who matured to dominate several crops (like Kelso)... Cigar was none of the two..

[EMD4ME]

Umm....Dare and Go?

My turn to redboard now.
I bet him pretty good to win the Pacific Classic in 1996.

I see nothing wrong with talking about why I fell in love with a horse in 1994. That was 21 years ago for Christ Sake.

I honestly don't see why people flip out over supposed redboarding. I am happy for people when they win. I see no reason why people get pissed when others win. That's just infantile to me. To me, if I am good at this, what do I care if others win as well?

Appreciate your sarcasm, about Dare and Go. Even the great ones lose many times, especially when ganged up on and legends (JB) make their once in a lifetime error.

So, you have no one in the past 10 years to bring up for conversation/comparison?

[DeltaLover]

Sticking to the last 10 years, anyone better than Cigar? Comparable to Cigar, in your opinion?

One better than him:

AMERICAN PHAROAH

At least one comparable to him:

CURLIN

[Kash$]

Ghostzapper imo was a better racehorse then Curlin and Cigar

[horses4courses]

I'm not sure that American Pharoah would want any of Cigar.
Not yet, at least.

Curlin, at his best, could probably have hung with him.
Although it wasn't within the last 10 years, Point Given
was in the same league.

[EMD4ME]

Ghostzapper imo was a better racehorse then Curlin and Cigar

Ghostzapper was special, I would definitely agree he was in Cigar's league or possibly better.

He ran some amazing races at Belmont. That burst of speed was almost incomparable.

I'll say this over and over again though, he didn't win 16 in a row against older company across the world and country, ducking no comers. Regardless, that was another race horse I adored.

[EMD4ME]

One better than him:

AMERICAN PHAROAH

At least one comparable to him:

CURLIN


You and I can debate in person pal. I'll say it once on here (so we're even), I don't think American Pharoah could smell Cigar, never mind beat him at 1 1/4.

Don't forget, Cigar looked Holy Bull in his eys and Holy Bull broke down after they made eye contact :)

[Tall One]

AP Indy would've mowed them all down... ;)

[EMD4ME]

I'm not sure that American Pharoah would want any of Cigar.
Not yet, at least.

Curlin, at his best, could probably have hung with him.
Although it wasn't within the last 10 years, Point Given
was in the same league.

Curlin was a favorite of mine as well. However, I lost some respect for him after he couldn't keep up with the girl in the Belmont.

I can't prove it but Curlin must've been on steroids as well in that run. On roids and you can't beat a filly, in your prime. That disappointed me big time.

Don't get me wrong, I was a huge fan of Curlin. Bet a lot of money on him.

[EMD4ME]

AP Indy would've mowed them all down... ;)

YES! Another classy long winded runner. And fantastic sire (unless of course his kid is running in a 6F sprint at the SPA as a FTS LOL)

[iceknight]

Your question was last 10 years.. and I am thinking ghostzapper is outside of that.. (he is the one I like most, but 2005 met mile is outside the questions last decade window :lol: )

outside of US Sea the Stars comes to my mind.. but not really a strict comparison. Wise Dan? Somehow he does nt evoke that Oomph factor which we got with tiznow etc (2001 -so not in last decade).

Invasor - we never got to know much of him.. but he could probably give Cigar a run for the money

[EMD4ME]

Umm....Dare and Go, Alphabet Soup?

My turn to redboard now.
I bet him pretty good to win the Pacific Classic in 1996.

I, also, had Alphabet Soup in BC Classic futures, along with 4 or 5 others.
They were great value due to all the hype on Cigar, as he was over the top
by then.

The poor guy was unfortunately over the top and his wide trip did hurt. I cried during that stretch run. Hated to see the old guy lose a step.

It's a shame Cigar's dirt talent wasn't noticed earlier. They languished him on turf for so long. He could've won 25 in a row.....

[EMD4ME]

Your question was last 10 years.. and I am thinking ghostzapper is outside of that..

outside of US Sea the Stars comes to my mind.. but not really a strict comparison. Wise Dan? Somehow he does nt evoke that Oomph factor which we got with tiznow etc (2001 -so not in last decade).

You are 100% correct. If memory serves correct, GZ won the BC Classic in 2004.

[EMD4ME]

Umm....Dare and Go, Alphabet Soup?

My turn to redboard now.
I bet him pretty good to win the Pacific Classic in 1996.

I, also, had Alphabet Soup in BC Classic futures, along with 4 or 5 others.
They were great value due to all the hype on Cigar, as he was over the top
by then.

How about the last 10 years, not 20 years?

[iceknight]

You are 100% correct. If memory serves correct, GZ won the BC Classic in 2004. The top BC Classic performances for me have been
Ghostzapper 2004
Cigar 1996 ?
Skipaway 1997 - he crushed the field (whoops).
I was thinking of the all star field in Awesome Again's win in 1998 (daddy to GZ)
Tiznow - versus Sakhee 2001

It is never fair to compare horses outside of their time period, too many factors, and our emotions come into play. And I say this even as someone who has merely followed the sport for just 4.5 years now.

[Kash$]

Best horse in last 10/20 years was Frankel

[EMD4ME]

I'm not sure that American Pharoah would want any of Cigar.
Not yet, at least.

Curlin, at his best, could probably have hung with him.
Although it wasn't within the last 10 years, Point Given
was in the same league.

I agree, Point Given was special. 135 2/5 in a 12 F race.....

His Belmont was real nice.

[DeltaLover]

Ghostzapper imo was a better racehorse then Curlin and Cigar
:bang:

he asked for the last 10 years...

[Vinnie]

Frankel is/was a "BEAST", and, he couldn't be more aptly and appropriately named than for none other than the Legendary Trainer Bobby Frankel. :)

Talk about an incredible turn of foot.

[EMD4ME]

Frankel is/was a "BEAST", and, he couldn't be more aptly and appropriately named than for none other than the Legendary Trainer Bobby Frankel. :)

Talk about an incredible turn of foot.

I wish I had more access to Frankel and yes, how appropriate he was named after an amazing trainer, right?

Makes me believe in a higher power!

[EMD4ME]

:bang:

he asked for the last 10 years...

Delta, such is life pal. LOL

[ArlJim78]

I thought Cigar was great, for sure.

But don't be modest, the real question is how great was this redboard?
I'd say it ranks up with the all time best, going back 20 years, being out in front of everyone recognizing a great horse in the making, plunking down two weeks pay on the nose at the beginning of the streak? okay right.

One has to ask though in light of this years prognostications, what happened to that eye for talent? :lol:

[EMD4ME]

I thought Cigar was great, for sure.

But don't be modest, the real question is how great was this redboard?
I'd say it ranks up with the all time best, going back 20 years, being out in front of everyone recognizing a great horse in the making, plunking down two weeks pay on the nose at the beginning of the streak? okay right.

One has to ask though in light of this years prognostications, what happened to that eye for talent? :lol:

I am not what you think I am. I could care less about redboarding or ego or whatever your implying.

I was building a story for why I fell in love with this horse, no more, no less.

Anyway, to answer your question, because that's what innocent and non malicious souls do, never.

I have never ever come across a horse like this again. That was once in a lifetime. So no, I am not touting some amazing talent to finding wonderhorses.

Wasn't the answer your looking for but it's the truth and that's all I know how to speak.

[Fager Fan]

One better than him:

AMERICAN PHAROAH

At least one comparable to him:

CURLIN

Not. AP still has time to become better but he isn't there yet. Curlin was very nice but a notch below Cigar.

[Fager Fan]

Ghostzapper imo was a better racehorse then Curlin and Cigar

He was very talented but his career was too short. I think you have to combine talent with accomplishment to see which horse comes out ahead. In this case, Cigar comes out ahead.

[Fager Fan]

Best horse in last 10/20 years was Frankel

Comparing apples with oranges.

[Bullet Plane]

I think Cigar is the best horse I've seen since I started watching races twenty years ago.

He is the horse that made me a horse racing fan. No Cigar, I wouldn't be on this board. I wouldn't be watching horse races period. And probably goes the same for 10's of thousands... my best guess...

He made fans. Very, very few horses have done that.

Other favorites, since I started watching 20 years ago:

Rachel Alexandra

Medaglia D' Oro

Unbridled's Song

[letswastemoney]

If only Cigar stayed on dirt earlier. He might have accomplished some great things in his three-year-old season.

[EMD4ME]

I think Cigar is the best horse I've seen since I started watching races twenty years ago.

He is the horse that made me a horse racing fan. No Cigar, I wouldn't be on this board. I wouldn't be watching horse races period. And probably goes the same for 10's of thousands... my best guess...

He made fans. Very, very few horses have done that.

Other favorites, since I started watching 20 years ago:

Rachel Alexandra

Medaglia D' Oro

Unbridled's Song

The Inconquerable, invincible, unbeatable CIGAR!!!!

Feel the love Bullet Plane, I feel the same way.

Anyone can say whatever they want to say BUT NO ONE COULD EVER say that their horse, in the last 50 years, has taken ON ALL COMERS, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME for ALL THE MARBLES and came through 16 times in a row.

And for whoever claims that Zenyatta can say that, please don't choke on the lies your typing away. She was a sweet horse, a loveable innocent soul but in no way shape or form was she brought around the world ASKING for someone to beat her like Cigar was.

[RichieP]

I would have liked to see Cigar race against Ghostzapper with both in their prime form cycles.

The Ghost :jump: would hammer the "great one" IMHO

[EMD4ME]

I would have liked to see Cigar race against Ghostzapper with both in their prime form cycles.

The Ghost :jump: would hammer the "great one" IMHO

As a fan of both, I would love to see GZ use his amazing bursts of speed and see how Cigar would have responded. Of course both at their PEAKS and the race at 10F.

That would be a nice one.

[dilanesp]

Cigar evolved to become one of the top horses of his era. His long winning streak, makes him look better that what he really was though..

I think it's the opposite. I suspect the long winning streak causes some to dismiss him, as if he was just a parlor trick.

He beat a boatload of really good horses. The 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup field he beat was probably the second best field in the 75 year history of the track-- it contained every top handicap horse in California at the time, plus the previous year's Breeders' Cup Classic winner (who famously lost by a nose to Holy Bull, in case anyone wonders how Holy Bull would have done against Cigar had he not broken down), and he just wiped the track with them.

He won the first Dubai World Cup. He beat a really good field in the Breeders' Cup Classic. And he got his Beyers into the 120's in his best races.

He also carried weight, ran all over the country, and never ducked a challenge.

Best American racehorse since Spectacular Bid, overall.

[dilanesp]

If only Cigar stayed on dirt earlier. He might have accomplished some great things in his three-year-old season.

Why do people think 3 year old races (which are restricted) are so important? We don't think this way about 2 year old races, after all.

Cigar did what he did against OPEN COMPETITION. Anyone, including a 3 year old, could show up. And he carried top weight, sometimes up to 130 pounds in doing it. What Cigar did is MUCH tougher than what 3 year olds sometimes do.

[Valuist]

You and I can debate in person pal. I'll say it once on here (so we're even), I don't think American Pharoah could smell Cigar, never mind beat him at 1 1/4.

Don't forget, Cigar looked Holy Bull in his eys and Holy Bull broke down after they made eye contact :)

Agree 100%. Cigar at his peak would've destroyed American Pharoah. It would've been truly ugly.

[LottaKash]

There have been so many terrific "legends" of our sport, and imo, "Cigar" can stand proudly and rightly so, right alongside any, or all of them...

He does have a place in Thoroughbred-Racing history..

[Redboard]

In general I like the older horses over the 2 and 3 year olds but I've always considered Spectacular Bid as last great thoroughbred of the 20th century. Has Cigar beaten anybody on Bloodhorse's top 100 thoroughbreds of the 20th century?

[EMD4ME]

Agree 100%. Cigar at his peak would've destroyed American Pharoah. It would've been truly ugly.

I know Beyer figs are a joke and mattered more in the 90's when they had more credence but 120 (earned 5 wide and againt RACE FLOW vs. top quality stock vs. 105 (given a loose and lonely lead on a very good rail against some minor league 3 year olds).

You are 1000% right. AP would've tried to keep up with Cigar at some point on the turn and it would turn ugly. Cigar would beat AP by a dozen.

Not even a contest.

[outofthebox]

Agree 100%. Cigar at his peak would've destroyed American Pharoah. It would've been truly ugly.How can this be a fair statement. Cigar did not even come into his peak till late 4yo early 5yo season. And unfortunately AP will be retired by years end.

[outofthebox]

I know Beyer figs are a joke and mattered more in the 90's when they had more credence but 120 (earned 5 wide and againt RACE FLOW vs. top quality stock vs. 105 (given a loose and lonely lead on a very good rail against some minor league 3 year olds).

You are 1000% right. AP would've tried to keep up with Cigar at some point on the turn and it would turn ugly. Cigar would beat AP by a dozen.

Not even a contest.You are comparing a 5yo season to a 3yo season. Yes Cigar was great. I was feeding him a carrot at CD during his letdown after they retired him and my hand was shaking..No other horse made me shake like that...

[EMD4ME]

You are comparing a 5yo season to a 3yo season. Yes Cigar was great. I was feeding him a carrot at CD during his letdown after they retired him and my hand was shaking..No other horse made me shake like that...

I am simply responding to someone's post that AP is better than Cigar. I didn't compare the legendary Cigar to young AP.

[taxicab]

Cigar was the best horse since the Affirmed/Bid era (maybe John Henry).
He was crushing everything with ease.
I do remember betting on him at Bay Meadows......he had a three length lead at the pole and spit it out.
I can stop any horse...... :faint: :D

[Fager Fan]

The Inconquerable, invincible, unbeatable CIGAR!!!!

Feel the love Bullet Plane, I feel the same way.

Anyone can say whatever they want to say BUT NO ONE COULD EVER say that their horse, in the last 50 years, has taken ON ALL COMERS, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME for ALL THE MARBLES and came through 16 times in a row.

And for whoever claims that Zenyatta can say that, please don't choke on the lies your typing away. She was a sweet horse, a loveable innocent sotul but in no way shape or form was she brought around the world ASKING for someone to beat her like Cigar was.

Thumbs up x 10

[Fager Fan]

I would have liked to see Cigar race against Ghostzapper with both in their prime form cycles.

The Ghost :jump: would hammer the "great one" IMHO

They were both good enough that one meeting wouldn't have been enough to decide who was better. It'd take a full year's campaign, and that's where Cigar would pull away from Ghostzapper. GZ simply couldn't pull out his best that many times.

[dilanesp]

In general I like the older horses over the 2 and 3 year olds but I've always considered Spectacular Bid as last great thoroughbred of the 20th century. Has Cigar beaten anybody on Bloodhorse's top 100 thoroughbreds of the 20th century?

That's unfair. Horses can only run against their cohorts. Cigar kicked the butts of Concern, Devil His Due, Urgent Request, Tinners Way, Best Pal, Soul of the Matter, L'Carriere, and a bunch of others i have forgotten. Major stakes winners all.

[EMD4ME]

That's unfair. Horses can only run against their cohorts. Cigar kicked the butts of Concern, Devil His Due, Urgent Request, Tinners Way, Best Pal, Soul of the Matter, L'Carriere, and a bunch of others i have forgotten. Major stakes winners all.


Unbridled's Song, Smart Strike, Unaccounted for, Thunder Gulch, Bertrando, etc. etc. etc. The list is longer.....

[biggestal99]

Agree 100%. Cigar at his peak would've destroyed American Pharoah. It would've been truly ugly.

Hopefully we haven't the best AP has to offer, he'll getbetter for sure

Otherwise

1. Cigar
2. American Pharoah

Allan

[burnsy]

How can this be a fair statement. Cigar did not even come into his peak till late 4yo early 5yo season. And unfortunately AP will be retired by years end.



And that's part of what people overlook. This horse raced everywhere and was a real campaigner. Some of these others people are talking about hardly ever raced. They were good but there's no way most of them would last 15 races, let alone win them. In recent history that's what's wrong with horse racing and the really good horses.....they just don't run and casual fans lose interest. Many of the horses people mention had wide gaps in their career or broke down. This horse gave until he could give no more and he was sound most of career, once he got going. Ghostzapper would run like every 4 months if that. AP Indy didn't last and neither did Holy Bull. Point Given was great but his career was short too. None of these horses traveled and raced like this horse did.....they just didn't have that kind of strength or soundness or there was more money in retirement. People wonder why horse racing keeps losing in the popularity department.......because there are no horses like this one was, that's part of the problem.........don't even try to name another horse like this one in the last 10 years, hell, I'll go 15, there are none........What captures the fickle publics attention? A star horse that actually travels and races regularly. I mean a variety of races at different venues. When one like that comes along, let me know. Actually hitting the track doesn't count anymore and don't under estimate it, its a big problem with these horses and the fan count. People that don't really bet a lot, that's what they pay to see. Two stars went down in a day this week, that's like a punch in the throat to this game, a lot of people would pay to see CC and Lady Eli.......this is a problem. I don't care how "good" they are.

[outofthebox]

And that's part of what people overlook. This horse raced everywhere and was a real campaigner. Some of these others people are talking about hardly ever raced. They were good but there's no way most of them would last 15 races, let alone win them. In recent history that's what's wrong with horse racing and the really good horses.....they just don't run and casual fans lose interest. Many of the horses people mention had wide gaps in their career or broke down. This horse gave until he could give no more and he was sound most of career, once he got going. Ghostzapper would run like every 4 months if that. AP Indy didn't last and neither did Holy Bull. Point Given was great but his career was short too. None of these horses traveled and raced like this horse did.....they just didn't have that kind of strength or soundness or there was more money in retirement. People wonder why horse racing keeps losing in the popularity department.......because there are no horses like this one was, that's part of the problem.........don't even try to name another horse like this one in the last 10 years, hell, I'll go 15, there are none........What captures the fickle publics attention? A star horse that actually travels and races regularly. I mean a variety of races at different venues. When one like that comes along, let me know. Actually hitting the track doesn't count anymore and don't under estimate it, its a big problem with these horses and the fan count. People that don't really bet a lot, that's what they pay to see. Two stars went down in a day this week, that's like a punch in the throat to this game, a lot of people would pay to see CC and Lady Eli.......this is a problem. I don't care how "good" they are.Well said Burnsy...

[EMD4ME]

And that's part of what people overlook. This horse raced everywhere and was a real campaigner. Some of these others people are talking about hardly ever raced. They were good but there's no way most of them would last 15 races, let alone win them. In recent history that's what's wrong with horse racing and the really good horses.....they just don't run and casual fans lose interest. Many of the horses people mention had wide gaps in their career or broke down. This horse gave until he could give no more and he was sound most of career, once he got going. Ghostzapper would run like every 4 months if that. AP Indy didn't last and neither did Holy Bull. Point Given was great but his career was short too. None of these horses traveled and raced like this horse did.....they just didn't have that kind of strength or soundness or there was more money in retirement. People wonder why horse racing keeps losing in the popularity department.......because there are no horses like this one was, that's part of the problem.........don't even try to name another horse like this one in the last 10 years, hell, I'll go 15, there are none........What captures the fickle publics attention? A star horse that actually travels and races regularly. I mean a variety of races at different venues. When one like that comes along, let me know. Actually hitting the track doesn't count anymore and don't under estimate it, its a big problem with these horses and the fan count. People that don't really bet a lot, that's what they pay to see. Two stars went down in a day this week, that's like a punch in the throat to this game, a lot of people would pay to see CC and Lady Eli.......this is a problem. I don't care how "good" they are.

Great points :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Only way I see a horse ever running so much again is if:

Breeders of all states could thump up $10 a foal for nomination and create a year long series named after CIGAR. Point system would be provided where you need to run in X amount of races a year. Different races throughout the country would be worth X points. Breeders Cup wins are worth triple a regular race is worth.

If your horse wins, you earn an extra $2-$3 Million dollars in bonuses.

If your horse earns an X amount of points the next year, you earn an additional $1-$2 Million.

Horses that would not be racing normally (due to going to the breading shed) might stay on the track longer.

One could say horses that are too sore to run might be pushed, that also would be handled by monetary motivations. If I have a superstar that is hurt, I won't push him/her as if they break down, I lose out on breeding the horse. So, odds are I won't take that chance.

Post race testing is done ON CAMERA live on the channel that buys the package. (NBC, ESPN, TVG).

Sponsorships are brought in to help fund costs. Celebrity owners can be highlighted (what celebrity doesn't want the attention).

A reality show can be created to cover behind the scenes work etc.

A lot can be done but as usual, who will care enough to do so (That is a track President)?

[LottaKash]

And that's part of what people overlook.....

This horse raced everywhere and was a real campaigner.What captures the fickle publics attention? A star horse that actually travels and races regularly. .

That is so true...

Cigar was the talk of the town during his time, and even people that weren't into horse racing, knew about Cigar and were rooting for him....

[Fager Fan]

Great points :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Only way I see a horse ever running so much again is if:

Breeders of all states could thump up $10 a foal for nomination and create a year long series named after CIGAR. Point system would be provided where you need to run in X amount of races a year. Different races throughout the country would be worth X points. Breeders Cup wins are worth triple a regular race is worth.

If your horse wins, you earn an extra $2-$3 Million dollars in bonuses.

If your horse earns an X amount of points the next year, you earn an additional $1-$2 Million.

Horses that would not be racing normally (due to going to the breading shed) might stay on the track longer.

One could say horses that are too sore to run might be pushed, that also would be handled by monetary motivations. If I have a superstar that is hurt, I won't push him/her as if they break down, I lose out on breeding the horse. So, odds are I won't take that chance.

Post race testing is done ON CAMERA live on the channel that buys the package. (NBC, ESPN, TVG).

Sponsorships are brought in to help fund costs. Celebrity owners can be highlighted (what celebrity doesn't want the attention).

A reality show can be created to cover behind the scenes work etc.

A lot can be done but as usual, who will care enough to do so (That is a track President)?

Have to find some funding. If every breeder of a 40,000 foal crop voluntarily paid, that's only $400k in funding.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't forget, Cigar looked Holy Bull in his eys and Holy Bull broke down after they made eye contact :)This is ridiculous.

What other horses, WEAKER THAN HOLY BULL, did Cigar break down by looking them in the eye? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come on man...you can do better.

I personally think Holy Bull was a much better horse than Cigar. After all, Holy Bull was a monster at THREE...he beat every single horse there was to beat in 1994. The best 3yos...the best older horses...the best sprinters...you name it, he beat them on dirt.

He started off his 4yo campaign giving every indication he hadn't lost a step and was probably getting even better.

[PaceAdvantage]

Agree 100%. Cigar at his peak would've destroyed American Pharoah. It would've been truly ugly.How can you possibly say this when you have no clue how much American Pharoah would improve between now and when he reaches the age when Cigar did his best running?

[PaceAdvantage]

That's unfair. Horses can only run against their cohorts. Cigar kicked the butts of Concern, Devil His Due, Urgent Request, Tinners Way, Best Pal, Soul of the Matter, L'Carriere, and a bunch of others i have forgotten. Major stakes winners all.Holy Bull did the same to more than one on your list, yet you dismiss him with ease.

[KingChas]

Croll till the day he died, still believed they got to Holy Bull and I don't really disagree.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-04-29/sports/sp-53562_1_holy-bull

[EMD4ME]

This is ridiculous.

What other horses, WEAKER THAN HOLY BULL, did Cigar break down by looking them in the eye? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Come on man...you can do better.

I personally think Holy Bull was a much better horse than Cigar. After all, Holy Bull was a monster at THREE...he beat every single horse there was to beat in 1994. The best 3yos...the best older horses...the best sprinters...you name it, he beat them on dirt.

He started off his 4yo campaign giving every indication he hadn't lost a step and was probably getting even better.

It's sad that race never panned out. It really is. I would've loved to see them hook up from the 3/4 to the wire. I honestly felt that Cigar would've had him that day but I could be wrong.

Cigar was the best of his generation and not one horse has come along to top him in almost 20 years. That says a lot.

I wasn't 100% serious, hence my :) after my comment (that he made him break down). There is a part of me that does believe it's possible. Maybe 10%.

After all it's possible Ruffian broke down from looking a horse in the eye she maybe thought she couldn't beat. I can't speak for that case or even in this case with any certainty, just saying......

[EMD4ME]

Have to find some funding. If every breeder of a 40,000 foal crop voluntarily paid, that's only $400k in funding.

Yes, unfortunately yes. That's where the sponsorships come in. But it's a moot point, nothing like this will happen. The Breeders Cup would kill it.

[dilanesp]

Holy Bull did the same to more than one on your list, yet you dismiss him with ease.

He didnt do it to all of them on my list.

I dismiss Holy Bull for several reasons:

1. Winning races as a 3 year old is easier. Most races are restricted to other three year olds, and the ones that aren't, the horse gets a weight break.

2. Holy Bull was terrible at a mile and a quarter. He was awful in the Kentucky Derby, and he was life and death through a 27 second last quarter in the Travers to beat Concern, who Cigar kicked the crap out of on multiple occasions.

3. Compared to Cigar, Holy Bull's career just isn't nearly as good. He didn't ship all over the world, didn't carry 130 pounds, didn't win 16 races in a row, didn't have a bunch of wins in Grade I stakes at 1 1/4 miles, etc.

Holy Bull was a very fast horse. He wasn't any better than Bertrando, who had a better career overall. That's all he was. Cigar, in contrast, is one of the greatest American racehorses of all time.

[EMD4ME]

Holy Bull did the same to more than one on your list, yet you dismiss him with ease.

I am not dismissing Holy Bull as I loved the bull.

He unfortunately did not do it in 16 in a row, against open Grade 1 company, taking on ALL comers and in most cases GOING to the comers.....

Regardless, I loved the bull. I was very sad in the Donn Handicap of 95. I cashed on Cigar big time but was very sad he won that way.

It's neither here or there but I remember watching that race in a jammed pack Aqueduct 1st floor grandstand.

Now, that same spot is a stupid penny video game/slot machine with a senior citizen connected to it with some players card with a chord.

[EMD4ME]

Croll till the day he died, still believed they got to Holy Bull and I don't really disagree.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-04-29/sports/sp-53562_1_holy-bull

I could definitely see that being true. Can't prove it but could see it for sure.

[Bullet Plane]

Well Cigar....

I got orders to ship overseas and thought I would probably miss the rest of the great Cigar's campaign.

My mom said that she would record the races on VCR and mail them APO to me.

I mean on AFRTS overseas, you were lucky to get the Kentucky Derby back then.

Horse racing just wasn't that big...

But, to my surprise and delight... most of his races were broadcast on AFRTS!

Can you believe it? That is just unheard of...

But the horse just had an enormous following...nothing has been seen like it since. He was a super, super star.

He was by far the biggest star the game has had in the last twenty years.

He was an impact player. A huge, huge impact player.

IMHO

[classhandicapper]

I thought Cigar was great. He benefitted a little by coming along during a period that wasn't particularly strong. But when you fire big every time and keep beating everyone they put in front of you regardless of trip and track, that's pretty much telling you that had he run in a few more tough fields he would have won most if not all of those of those races too. It would have taken another great horse like Holy Bull to beat him at his best.

[ultracapper]

Really Great

[PaceAdvantage]

He didnt do it to all of them on my list.

I dismiss Holy Bull for several reasons:

1. Winning races as a 3 year old is easier. Most races are restricted to other three year olds, and the ones that aren't, the horse gets a weight break.

2. Holy Bull was terrible at a mile and a quarter. He was awful in the Kentucky Derby, and he was life and death through a 27 second last quarter in the Travers to beat Concern, who Cigar kicked the crap out of on multiple occasions.

3. Compared to Cigar, Holy Bull's career just isn't nearly as good. He didn't ship all over the world, didn't carry 130 pounds, didn't win 16 races in a row, didn't have a bunch of wins in Grade I stakes at 1 1/4 miles, etc.

Holy Bull was a very fast horse. He wasn't any better than Bertrando, who had a better career overall. That's all he was. Cigar, in contrast, is one of the greatest American racehorses of all time.The above is absolute ridiculous rubbish.

First of all, Holy Bull never raced at the age at which Cigar did his best running. Think of how good Holy Bull could have been had he been allowed to race as a 4 and 5yo...so any comparison which states that Cigar was without a doubt the much better horse is garbage.

Speed-figure wise, they were pretty much identical, if memory serves me correctly. And Holy Bull was running those numbers as a THREE-YEAR-OLD.

And as for your even more ridiculous assertion that Holy Bull was terrible at 10 furlongs...holy SHIT...he raced that distance TWICE, if I recall.

The first time in the Kentucky Derby, where, obviously he never even had a CHANCE to run, through legitimate excuses...and perhaps even some skulduggery, if you believe his trainer and you read the quite shady dealings of one prominent veterinarian at the time (who is now long gone from this world).

The second time he ran 10 furlongs, it was perhaps one of the greatest performances by a 3yo in a major race....ever. I defy you to watch that race and tell me you're not in awe. Witness the RABBIT he had to battle (I don't have the chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Holy Bull pressed/dueled Tabasco Cat's RABBIT through fractions of 22 4/5, 46 1/5 and 1:09 and change), then held off the eventual BREEDERS' CUP CLASSIC winner, who by all rights should have blown by Holy Bull (whom many thought had no business going a mile and a quarter) but couldn't.

Yeah, he was terrible at the classic distance. Good grief!

[PaceAdvantage]

I am not dismissing Holy Bull as I loved the bull.

He unfortunately did not do it in 16 in a row, against open Grade 1 company, taking on ALL comers and in most cases GOING to the comers.....

Regardless, I loved the bull. I was very sad in the Donn Handicap of 95. I cashed on Cigar big time but was very sad he won that way.

It's neither here or there but I remember watching that race in a jammed pack Aqueduct 1st floor grandstand.

Now, that same spot is a stupid penny video game/slot machine with a senior citizen connected to it with some players card with a chord.Holy Bull did beat all comers in 1994. Every single horse of any importance was beaten and in most cases beaten badly by Holy Bull. Including some of the horses Cigar defeated.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Holy Bull in the same league as Cigar? I know you have a soft spot for him (and he was a great horse), but just look at the PPs side by side.

[PaceAdvantage]

Holy Bull in the same league as Cigar? I know you have a soft spot for him (and he was a great horse), but just look at the PPs side by side.I contend Holy Bull was better, since he was running those numbers at THREE, not at FOUR and FIVE like Cigar was.

I look at his PPs and his numbers and I haven't seen a better 3yo since.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I contend Holy Bull was better, since he was running those numbers at THREE, not at FOUR and FIVE like Cigar was.

I look at his PPs and his numbers and I haven't seen a better 3yo since.

Love your passion for him - I think there's big picture of him inside the OBS sales arena in Ocala.

[PaceAdvantage]

Love your passion for him - I think there's big picture of him inside the OBS sales arena in Ocala.I was on him since he was a two-year-old. I remember the day he beat the overrated Dehere at Belmont like it was yesterday...in the mud/slop.

I couldn't believe I got 5/2 in the Florida Derby...

And I didn't even watch the finish of the Donn. When I saw him pull up, I sat there for a stunned second or two, got up out of my seat, and slowly walked out of the OTB where I went to watch the race (I had to sneak out of work for 30 minutes in order to do so...no online video back then).

I also went down to Kentucky and visited him at Jonabell a few years after he was retired...

Grits sent me a framed picture she took of him a while back...I have that prominently displayed above my computer, along with a very large, Mike Smith-autographed, framed photo of the Travers finish. Can't believe how low Smith is in the saddle in that shot, asking for every last ounce from his mount.

I would love to get down to visit him again, because I know the time to do so is relatively short, but sadly, I doubt I'll be able to pull that off.

Passion is an understatement.

[dilanesp]

The above is absolute ridiculous rubbish.

First of all, Holy Bull never raced at the age at which Cigar did his best running. Think of how good Holy Bull could have been had he been allowed to race as a 4 and 5yo...so any comparison which states that Cigar was without a doubt the much better horse is garbage.

Speed-figure wise, they were pretty much identical, if memory serves me correctly. And Holy Bull was running those numbers as a THREE-YEAR-OLD.

And as for your even more ridiculous assertion that Holy Bull was terrible at 10 furlongs...holy SHIT...he raced that distance TWICE, if I recall.

The first time in the Kentucky Derby, where, obviously he never even had a CHANCE to run, through legitimate excuses...and perhaps even some skulduggery, if you believe his trainer and you read the quite shady dealings of one prominent veterinarian at the time (who is now long gone from this world).

The second time he ran 10 furlongs, it was perhaps one of the greatest performances by a 3yo in a major race....ever. I defy you to watch that race and tell me you're not in awe. Witness the RABBIT he had to battle (I don't have the chart in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Holy Bull pressed/dueled Tabasco Cat's RABBIT through fractions of 22 4/5, 46 1/5 and 1:09 and change), then held off the eventual BREEDERS' CUP CLASSIC winner, who by all rights should have blown by Holy Bull (whom many thought had no business going a mile and a quarter) but couldn't.

Yeah, he was terrible at the classic distance. Good grief!

1. Think of what a great president he might have been had JFK lived! Unfortunately, you don't get credit for that. Landaluce was the greatest 2 year old filly who ever lived. But she doesn't rate with Zenyatta (or even Rachel Alexandra, Ruffian, Two Lea, or Dahlia). If you don't run in the handicap division as a 4 year old, that's not a positive. That's a negative. That's called being a promising horse who never got a chance to fulfill his promise. There's a category for such horses, but that category is NOT "all time great".

2. I don't think running fast speed figures as a three year old is THAT big a deal. It counts for something. But also, Holy Bull's figures were not at a mile and a quarter. He sucked at a mile and a quarter. He was an elongated sprinter, which is fine. As I said, Bertrando was a better one. So was Prescisionist. There were a ton of those, and I respect them, but they are not all time greats.

3. There's no such thing as a "legitimate excuse". You lose the race, you get dinged. And Holy Bull didn't lose the Kentucky Derby-- he got his butt kicked in it. He stunk. If he had been second beaten a half length I might have a different opinion about it.

As for the Travers, let me list some of the many performances by 3 year olds at 1 1/4 miles which were all much better than Holy Bull going the last 1/4 in 27 seconds:

a. Stagehand beating Seabiscuit in the 1938 Santa Anita Handicap in March of his 3 year old year.

b. Whirlaway's, Northern Dancer's, and Secretariat's track record setting performances in the Derby.

c. General Assembly's Travers.

d. Jaipur's and Ridan's Travers.

e. Quack running 1:58 1/5 in the Hollywood Gold Cup beating older horses.

f. JO Tobin slaughtering Seattle Slew, running 1:58 3/5, after running basically THE SAME fractions Holy Bull did, but then not slowing down at the end of the race as Holy Bull did.

g. Sunday Silence beating Easy Goer in the Breeders' Cup Classic.

h. AP Indy winning the Breeders' Cup Classic.

i. Silver Charm's Derby win over Free House and Captain Bodget

j. Curlin's Breeders' Cup Classic over Street Sense and Hard Spun.

k. Riva Ridge's 1972 Hollywood Derby, in which 4 horses ran after him one after the other, never giving him any chance to relax on the lead, and he still held on to win, beating Quack, the horse who had just won the Hollywood Gold Cup over older horses in a time that equaled the world record.

l. Best Pal's win in the first Pacific Classic.

m. Spend a Buck's crushing wire to wire in the Derby.

Heck, Holy Bull's Travers isn't even as impressive as Concern's Breeders' Cup Classic! At least Concern beat older horses.

Holy Bull was an overrated, east coast, elongated sprinter who ran some nice speed figures but was gasping at the end of 10 furlongs. We have those all the time in California; Native Diver was probably the best of them historically. Bertrando was probably the best comparison to Holy Bull. We don't get that excited about them. Apparently you folks on the east coast do.

[cj]

I'd personally take Holy Bull and Skip Away over Cigar, but that doesn't mean I don't think he was great.

[NJ Stinks]

My recollection of Cigar is that he beat mostly bad competition or competition that was no longer in their prime. (One reason I respect Curlin as much as I do is because of Hard Spun and Any Given Saturday.)

Anyway, I was at the 1995 Breeders' Cup Classic at Belmont. That field was the worst and most uncompetitive that I remember ever in the Classic. Concern was over the hill as evidenced by his long odds. Unaccounted For was the second choice at 5-1 and his biggest win came in the Whitney that year in another lousy field. Cigar had a really bad outside post and still strolled home unchallenged at 3-5. If you can call such a small score redboarding, I wheeled Cigar on top because who knew who was going to be 2nd in this bunch? L'Carriere was the lucky one at 50-1.

In short, Cigar reminds me of a big fish in a small pond. But I could be wrong.

[EMD4ME]

I was on him since he was a two-year-old. I remember the day he beat the overrated Dehere at Belmont like it was yesterday...in the mud/slop.

I couldn't believe I got 5/2 in the Florida Derby...

And I didn't even watch the finish of the Donn. When I saw him pull up, I sat there for a stunned second or two, got up out of my seat, and slowly walked out of the OTB where I went to watch the race (I had to sneak out of work for 30 minutes in order to do so...no online video back then).

I also went down to Kentucky and visited him at Jonabell a few years after he was retired...

Grits sent me a framed picture she took of him a while back...I have that prominently displayed above my computer, along with a very large, Mike Smith-autographed, framed photo of the Travers finish. Can't believe how low Smith is in the saddle in that shot, asking for every last ounce from his mount.

I would love to get down to visit him again, because I know the time to do so is relatively short, but sadly, I doubt I'll be able to pull that off.

Passion is an understatement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpioAQGLpa0

I was 17 years old, my dad was in a local OTB explaining to all the degenerates that Holy Bull can NOT lose in the futurity. I'll never forget all the Greeks yelling at my dad saying he's lost his marbles. Citing all reasons that Dehere can not lose. I'll never ever forget crouching down like a catcher next to his legs as he stood up against a wall listening to the Tom Durkin call of the race. As usual the usual horseplayers would scream during the race call (no video so everyone had to be quiet but these guys never got that) and I remember listening intently to Durkin's tone to understand if Holy Bull had it or not. He kept calling Dehere but I knew from his tone that Dehere was not going to get there.

Hush fell over the OTB as Durkin said Holy Bull holds on by a diminishing half length. Was so proud of dad....

Many others will say your dad was a loser for allowing you to come to OTB. He didn't allow me LOL. My mom would send me to check up on him to make sure he's o.k. time to time and we knew where he would be in between his 2 jobs. (he only had an hour or two of a break every day in between 2 jobs-7 days a week).

Good times PA. I understand your love for the Bull. He has a place in my heart as well.

[NJ Stinks]

EMD4ME, I just want to say you write a nice story. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

EMD4ME, I just want to say you write a nice story. :ThmbUp:

I'm sure I could do a much better job :blush: ....a sincere and humble thank you...

Just speaking from the heart and the memory banks.

[classhandicapper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpioAQGLpa0

I was 17 years old, my dad was in a local OTB explaining to all the degenerates that Holy Bull can NOT lose in the futurity.


I bet Holy Bull in that race. He had a really good pace figure on my numbers.

Which OTB was that? I assume it was in Astoria?

[PaceAdvantage]

The fact that Holy Bull smoked Bertrando in the Woodward (along with every other major older horse in training) pretty much negates a vast portion of your argument below. It negates the whole "Bertrando was basically his equal" and the ridiculous notion that "If you don't run in the handicap division as a 4 year old, that's not a positive."

If that's the case, what do you think about a horse like Holy Bull who ran in the handicap division as a 3yo and SMOKED every major contender of the day? Tack on the Met Mile for bonus points.

1. Think of what a great president he might have been had JFK lived! Unfortunately, you don't get credit for that. Landaluce was the greatest 2 year old filly who ever lived. But she doesn't rate with Zenyatta (or even Rachel Alexandra, Ruffian, Two Lea, or Dahlia). If you don't run in the handicap division as a 4 year old, that's not a positive. That's a negative. That's called being a promising horse who never got a chance to fulfill his promise. There's a category for such horses, but that category is NOT "all time great".

2. I don't think running fast speed figures as a three year old is THAT big a deal. It counts for something. But also, Holy Bull's figures were not at a mile and a quarter. He sucked at a mile and a quarter. He was an elongated sprinter, which is fine. As I said, Bertrando was a better one. So was Prescisionist. There were a ton of those, and I respect them, but they are not all time greats.

3. There's no such thing as a "legitimate excuse". You lose the race, you get dinged. And Holy Bull didn't lose the Kentucky Derby-- he got his butt kicked in it. He stunk. If he had been second beaten a half length I might have a different opinion about it.

As for the Travers, let me list some of the many performances by 3 year olds at 1 1/4 miles which were all much better than Holy Bull going the last 1/4 in 27 seconds:

a. Stagehand beating Seabiscuit in the 1938 Santa Anita Handicap in March of his 3 year old year.

b. Whirlaway's, Northern Dancer's, and Secretariat's track record setting performances in the Derby.

c. General Assembly's Travers.

d. Jaipur's and Ridan's Travers.

e. Quack running 1:58 1/5 in the Hollywood Gold Cup beating older horses.

f. JO Tobin slaughtering Seattle Slew, running 1:58 3/5, after running basically THE SAME fractions Holy Bull did, but then not slowing down at the end of the race as Holy Bull did.

g. Sunday Silence beating Easy Goer in the Breeders' Cup Classic.

h. AP Indy winning the Breeders' Cup Classic.

i. Silver Charm's Derby win over Free House and Captain Bodget

j. Curlin's Breeders' Cup Classic over Street Sense and Hard Spun.

k. Riva Ridge's 1972 Hollywood Derby, in which 4 horses ran after him one after the other, never giving him any chance to relax on the lead, and he still held on to win, beating Quack, the horse who had just won the Hollywood Gold Cup over older horses in a time that equaled the world record.

l. Best Pal's win in the first Pacific Classic.

m. Spend a Buck's crushing wire to wire in the Derby.

Heck, Holy Bull's Travers isn't even as impressive as Concern's Breeders' Cup Classic! At least Concern beat older horses.

Holy Bull was an overrated, east coast, elongated sprinter who ran some nice speed figures but was gasping at the end of 10 furlongs. We have those all the time in California; Native Diver was probably the best of them historically. Bertrando was probably the best comparison to Holy Bull. We don't get that excited about them. Apparently you folks on the east coast do.

[EMD4ME]

I bet Holy Bull in that race. He had a really good pace figure on my numbers.

Which OTB was that? I assume it was in Astoria?

Hey Classhandicapper, 31st between Ditmars and 23rd ave in Astoria pal. The WORST OTB in the history of mankind LOL.

[LottaKash]

Hey Classhandicapper, 31st between Ditmars and 23rd ave in Astoria pal. The WORST OTB in the history of mankind LOL.

I have been to a whole bunch of them in the 5-Bouroughs, yuck, so imo, that one, must be a real doozy for you to state that...

[EMD4ME]

I have been to a whole bunch of them in the 5-Bouroughs, yuck, so imo, that one, must be a real doozy for you to state that...

you couldn't get from the door to the window for a withdrawal without 14 people giving you a story in return for ten bucks, without getting pickpocketed, without acquiring some rare form of Ebola :lol: and without the teller trying to somehow rip you off!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

In all seriousness, the crowd made it the worst. They were super loud during the race calls, super rude and I wouldn't call what they did as cursing because they never used a word that wasn't a curse LOL.

They used to curse out verbal bets when they weren't allowed, tellers were total crooks. My dad would only bet to win and maybe a DD. Always in increments of $20. Can't tell you how many times he hit a DD for $20 or $200 and the teller punched if for $2 hoping he wouldn't hit and wouldn't notice it.

One time my dad bet a $20 DD that came in and paid $200. He realized it was punched for $2. Suffice to say the bull in the china shop recked the place.

I can't prove it but I guess the Manager knew what they (tellers) were up to and tolerated cursing, banging etc I guess. It was bad.

I refused to spend time in an OTB. As soon as I saved enough for a car, I was at the track every 'gambling' day from 21 years old.

I'll never forget leaving the Meadowlands to hit an OTB in Manhattan so I coud make a large withdrawal. I had placed a bet via OTB while at the Meadowlands. Hit for $5K or something. Got to the OTB, Hollywood was running late on a Friday night. The manager said she closed the vault even though they had 2 hours to go as she didn't expect anyone to win.

I was F'n pissed. I remember I had a trip to Pennational planned for that Saturday and couldn't access that cash for the trip.

She just turned me away and turned her back. I said how about you give me 5's and 10's. NOPE was her response. How about I hang out and as everyone loses, as you state ms. manager, I collect whatever I can. Nope.

If I had a gun and didn't care, I would've shot them ! LOL

[Prytanis]

Hey Classhandicapper, 31st between Ditmars and 23rd ave in Astoria pal. The WORST OTB in the history of mankind LOL.
I've been to that Otb a few times myself. You're right.
What about the guy with the Hitler mustache, was he there when you went.
That was back in the late 80s

[EMD4ME]

I've been to that Otb a few times myself. You're right.
What about the guy with the Hitler mustache, was he there when you went.
That was back in the late 80s

I had a hitler moustache....






JUST KIDDING :) :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm trying to place who you're talking about....Tall, short, thin? Dark hair?

[letswastemoney]

The Kentucky Derby is an outlier.

I wouldn't take most of what happens in that race as evidence a horse can't go 10 furlongs.

[Prytanis]

I had a hitler moustache....






JUST KIDDING :) :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm trying to place who you're talking about....Tall, short, thin? Dark hair?
About 5'7 145lb jet black hair combed Hitler style.
I guess it was before your time, if you had seen him,you would remember!
BTW, China town was even worst Otb,if that's possible!!

[EMD4ME]

About 5'7 145lb jet black hair combed Hitler style.
I guess it was before your time, if you had seen him,you would remember!
BTW, China town was even worst Otb,if that's possible!!

I remember a few greeks with a similar moustache. Just can't place him...

I've never been to the China town OTB. Thoughts? Romantic? Just kidding. How bad was it?

[Prytanis]

I remember a few greeks with a similar moustache. Just can't place him...

I've never been to the China town OTB. Thoughts? Romantic? Just kidding. How bad was it?
Don't get me started.

[EMD4ME]

Don't get me started.

Come on, what were the 2 worst things about it? How much worse it than the pristine one on 31st?

[DeltaLover]

About 5'7 145lb jet black hair combed Hitler style.
I guess it was before your time, if you had seen him,you would remember!
BTW, China town was even worst Otb,if that's possible!!

the worst was at 37 st and broadway in manhatan.. the winners cycle, upstairs was good though.

[Prytanis]

the worst was at 37 st and broadway in manhatan.. the winners cycle, upstairs was good though.
That too! Upstairs you had to pay $5 for a green jacket!
28th St off 7th ave. I've seen someone get stabbed in there
That was my hangout when I was working in the garment district and I used to take 2-3 hour lunch every day. Some homeless used to hang out in there as it opened at 8 in the morning.
On raining days you couldn't even breathe from the stench.

[Prytanis]

Come on, what were the 2 worst things about it? How much worse it than the pristine one on 31st?
It was small and very smokey.

[burnsy]

What irked me about this thread was....it was about Cigar and then people start in about how these other horses were better than him....granted, who knows, a few of them may have been. But this horse was an ambassador for the game, he ran wherever there was competition and won 15. Most of these modern day horses are a "flash in the pan" types. Here today, gone tomorrow.....and when they are running many take the "cherry pick" deal until the BC.

Someone started a thread about why is NASCAR more popular than horse racing?....one, its organized.......two, unless the driver dies he's/she's racing the next week. How much mileage, coverage and fan support can the game get off of 6-8 starts a year and a retirement or injury? When "great" started to mean you didn't have to accept challenges or were too feeble to race regularly....the popularity of this game plummeted....no star rivalries through out the season, walk overs and defections when its hard enough to hold some peoples attention for more than an hour. Cigar was t-shirts and posters at every track he went to.........Yeah, its rocket science.....everyone is not a horse player like most of us. We are dinosaurs, they need juice badly and great horses like this are it.

[dilanesp]

What irked me about this thread was....it was about Cigar and then people start in about how these other horses were better than him....granted, who knows, a few of them may have been. But this horse was an ambassador for the game, he ran wherever there was competition and won 15. Most of these modern day horses are a "flash in the pan" types. Here today, gone tomorrow.....and when they are running many take the "cherry pick" deal until the BC.

Someone started a thread about why is NASCAR more popular than horse racing?....one, its organized.......two, unless the driver dies he's/she's racing the next week. How much mileage, coverage and fan support can the game get off of 6-8 starts a year and a retirement or injury? When "great" started to mean you didn't have to accept challenges or were too feeble to race regularly....the popularity of this game plummeted....no star rivalries through out the season, walk overs and defections when its hard enough to hold some peoples attention for more than an hour. Cigar was t-shirts and posters at every track he went to.........Yeah, its rocket science.....everyone is not a horse player like most of us. We are dinosaurs, they need juice badly and great horses like this are it.

That is in fact a reality.

Look, I'm not the biggest fan of Secretariat. In a barroom, I'm sure I would argue that Spectacular Bid was a far more accomplished racehorse. But I will say this-- Secretariat was REALLY IMPORTANT in a sense that Spectacular Bid wasn't. And that counts for something. We all have these sorts of contrarian opinions (for instance, I also rate Bill Russell a better basketball player than Michael Jordan). But Cigar's impact on a flailing sport was visceral and significant, and you are absolutely right about that.

[PaceAdvantage]

Cigar was t-shirts and posters at every track he went to.........I regret to this day that I actually wore my Holy Bull t-shirt to death. Does anyone remember it? Grey with the glow-in-the-dark halo? That was awesome...

Holy Bull had a huge following...he passed the torch to Cigar, both literally and figuratively in the Donn...

[ultracapper]

That is in fact a reality.

Look, I'm not the biggest fan of Secretariat. In a barroom, I'm sure I would argue that Spectacular Bid was a far more accomplished racehorse. But I will say this-- Secretariat was REALLY IMPORTANT in a sense that Spectacular Bid wasn't. And that counts for something. We all have these sorts of contrarian opinions (for instance, I also rate Bill Russell a better basketball player than Michael Jordan). But Cigar's impact on a flailing sport was visceral and significant, and you are absolutely right about that.

I do business with Bill Russell every now and then. He's in his early 80s now. He owns a number of income properties in the Renton, WA area. I'm 6'6". Even at his age, when I stand next to him, I'm craining my neck to make eye contact. He was listed at 6'11". Easily 7'2" in reality.

[dilanesp]

I regret to this day that I actually wore my Holy Bull t-shirt to death. Does anyone remember it? Grey with the glow-in-the-dark halo? That was awesome...

Holy Bull had a huge following...he passed the torch to Cigar, both literally and figuratively in the Donn...

I don't remember Holy Bull ever drawing 40,000 to a track (the Derby and Travers don't count obviously). Cigar did several times.

I had a friend in Amarillo Texas who said Cigar's loss to Dare And Go made the front page of the local paper there. They never heard of Holy Bull.