Del Mar Gets it

[Some_One]

From http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/jul/11/thoroughbred-racing-del-mar/

Attendance is up about 16 percent since 2000. Gambling revenue has been steady, but more money is being spent on drinks, seats. food and other items, boosting overall revenue. And the crowds are different: 70 percent are between the ages of 18 and 49, and 45 percent are female.

The tracks that survive in the longrun will have great on track crowds, sure they're two dollar bettors, but they buy lots of food and drinks where the track holds more than the 7% they do on a wager.

[AndyC]

From http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/jul/11/thoroughbred-racing-del-mar/



The tracks that survive in the longrun will have great on track crowds, sure they're two dollar bettors, but they buy lots of food and drinks where the track holds more than the 7% they do on a wager.

A real tough draw to the beach in Del Mar in the summer time. A better comparison would be to see how they do in November.

[Stillriledup]

It's easier to 'get it' if you have del mar to sell.

[dogkatcher]

Santa Anita $4 parking Del Mar $10 parking guess this cheapskate will stay home and save the $20 gas money to get there and watch it on the tube instead. Would be nice to see a full grandstand again, but that's my loss.

Hope the new surface is safe for all, Where the Turf Meets the Surf.

[dartman51]

Went to Churchill a few weeks ago. It was $10 to park up close,so it was a short walk to the entrance, but, then the parking attendant gave my wife and I box seat tickets worth more than $10 apiece. So it turned out to be not such a bad deal. And they were great seats, next to the trainers boxes, near the finish line. :ThmbUp:

[Binder]

In the past you could park for free at the Solana Beach train station,
If you got there early enough and take a free old
fashion doubled decker shuttle
bus. They come along back and forth every few minutes,

[Cholly]

From http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/jul/11/thoroughbred-racing-del-mar/



The tracks that survive in the longrun will have great on track crowds, sure they're two dollar bettors, but they buy lots of food and drinks where the track holds more than the 7% they do on a wager.
Few on this site will want to acknowledge what you're saying. My home track, Emerald Downs, doesn't have squat for handle but they've got $7 parking, $7 admission, $7 beer, and $7 hamburgers, and they're banking enough of those sevens (that they don't have to share with anybody) that they can afford to keep the place spotlessly clean.

I'm pretty sure this info doesn't get shared publicly, but it would be interesting to know the breakdown between Churchill's net revenue for wagering vs.non-wagering sources on Derby/Oaks weekend.

[dilanesp]

A real tough draw to the beach in Del Mar in the summer time. A better comparison would be to see how they do in November.

They do great in November. Much better than BHP did.

[AndyC]

They do great in November. Much better than BHP did.

Define great. Beating BHP is a low bar to get over.

[Jeff P]

I'm far from convinced that Del Mar track management "gets it."

Last year, after the conclusion of the Del Mar and Saratoga meets, I ran the following handle analysis comparing Del Mar 2014 vs. Saratoga 2014 and submitted it to the CHRB.

The analysis shows a side by side handle comparison by wager type along with takeout rate for each wager.

Overall, Del Mar handled about 78% as much as Saratoga did.

On WPS wagers, where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates, Del Mar handled 82.76% as much as Saratoga did.

But on Exacta wagers, where Del Mar has a takeout rate of 22.86% and Saratoga has a takeout rate of 18.50%, Del Mar handled just 54.79% as much as Saratoga did.

I found that number stunning and upon learning that an open to the public CHRB Parimutuel Wagering Committee meeting was scheduled to be held at Los Al where the topic of discussion was whether or not the CHRB should consider undertaking a formal economic study of takeout rates and their effect on handle and revenue, made the drive up to Los Al and presented my analysis.

HANDLE PER RACE ANALYSIS DMR 2014 vs. SAR 2014

COL-A COL-B COL-C COL-D COL- E
-----------------------------------------------------------
% RATIO TAKEOUT PCT
WAGER DMR 2014 SAR 2014 DMR/SAR DMR SAR
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
WPS 357,191.42 431,591.93 0.8276 15.43 16.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
EXA 191,623.58 349,769.78 0.5479 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
QUIN 9,616.63 17,509.86 0.5492 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
DD 51,382.56 109,866.97 0.4677 20.00 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
TRI 128,401.10 200,302.83 0.6410 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P3 90,587.11 96,380.09 0.9399 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
SUPER 90,214.33 104,983.19 0.8593 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P4 309,936.53 428,709.63 0.7230 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
High5 54,307.78 -NA- -NA- 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P5 542,446.00 334,177.73 1.6232 14.00 15.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P6 363,049.75 165,065.08 2.1994 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
OTHER 24,337.28 35,594.83 0.6837 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
FLDSIZE 8.78 7.97 1.1020
-----------------------------------------------------------


Notes:

1. The above handle summary compares DMR 2014 against SAR 2014 and handle numbers are expressed as handle per race.

2. Column B lists average handle and field size per race for DMR 2014.

3. Column C lists average handle and field size per race for SAR 2014.

4. Column D lists DMR numbers expressed as a percentage of SAR numbers.

5. Column E lists a side by side comparison of takeout rates for DMR and SAR.

6. For WPS, Del Mar and Saratoga have approximate level takeout rates, Del Mar at 15.43% with Saratoga at 16.00 % with Saratoga using Nickel Breakage, DMR handled approx 83% as much as SAR did. (Use this as your baseline.)

7. For EXA, Del Mar handled just 55% as much as Saratoga did. This number is stunning when you consider the differential in takeout rates.

8. For DD, Del Mar handled just 47% as much as Saratoga did. This number is stunning when you consider the "logic" used to justify abandoning Santa Anita's 18% rolling double experiment where DD handle per race was up 24%.

9. I submitted the argument that had EXA takeout at DMR been 18.50% like SAR, EXA handle at DMR would have likely been in line with the WPS baseline of 82.76%.

I also submitted the argument that if this were true EXA handle for the DMR 2014 meet could be estimated as follows:

(EST DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = (SAR EXA HANDLE) x (Baseline)

or (EST DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = (349,769.78) x (0.8276)

or (EST DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = 289,469.47


10. Based on handle projections assuming an 18.5% takeout rate, I submitted the further argument that revenue on Exacta wagers for the DMR 2014 meet could be estimated as follows:

(Revenue Per Race on EST DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = (289,469.47) x (0.185)

or (Revenue Per Race on EST DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = 53,551.85


11. (Revenue Per Race on ACTUAL DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = (191,623.58) x (0.2268)

or (Revenue Per Race on ACTUAL DMR EXA HANDLE PER RACE) = 43,460.23


12. I also submitted the argument that as a result of their 22.68% exacta takeout rate, Del Mar experienced a REVENUE SHORTFALL for Exactas of just over $10k per race calculated as follows:

EXACTA REVENUE SHORTFALL PER RACE = 10,091.62

(or 53,551.62 - 43,460.23)


13. I also submitted the argument that as a result of their 22.68% exacta takeout rate, Del Mar experienced an Exacta REVENUE SHORTFALL for their 2014 MEET of approximately $3.279 MILLION calculated as follows:

Exacta REVENUE SHORTFALL for DMR 2014 MEET= $3.279 MILLION

(or 10,091.62 x 325 exacta races)


14. The numbers suggest 22.68% takeout on 2 horse bets is costing California Racing millions of dollars per year in lost purse money and track revenue.


15. The numbers suggest 22.68% takeout on 2 horse bets has negatively impacted funding for alpha-bet groups such as the CHRB, TOC, CTT, CARMA, Disabled Jockeys Fund, etc.




The CHRB Commissioners treated me politely - as did track management and representatives of the TOC - But I found it interesting that I was the only one attending who took the podium and spoke in favor of the meeting agenda item: Whether or not the CHRB should consider undertaking an economic study on takeout rates and their effect on handle and revenue.

I also found it interesting that many members of track management in Cali racing, management at brick and mortar OTBs, representatives from the TOC, and Labor Unions also took the podium - and all who spoke publicly bemoaned declines in revenue, layoffs, and cutbacks in hours for parimutuel clerks over the past few years (following the takeout increase they insisted on implementing Jan 01, 2011) but NONE of them spoke up in favor of the agenda item: Whether or not the CHRB should consider undertaking an economic study on takeout rates and their effect on handle and revenue. And many from track management and the President of the TOC voiced opposition to even the idea of an economic study of takeout and revenue.

Speaking honestly, I'm far from convinced track management at any California track "gets it" at all.



-jp

.

[ReplayRandall]

I'm far from convinced that Del Mar track management "gets it."

Last year, after the conclusion of the Del Mar and Saratoga meets, I ran the following handle analysis comparing Del Mar 2014 vs. Saratoga 2014 and submitted it to the CHRB.

Jeff, thank you for your detailed analysis concerning take-out differential and it's cause and effects when comparing DM versus 'Toga. However, many players and myself included, have taken Del Mar and it's plastic track and thrown it in the garbage a few years ago. Now that dirt is back at DM, let's see what the numbers will look like after the completion of this summer's meet......Have a feeling they'll rise significantly.

[AndyC]

.......Speaking honestly, I'm far from convinced track management at any California track "gets it" at all..

The day, then Del Mar TC president, Craig Fravel gave his ringing endorsement to a takeout increase was the day I knew Del Mar didn't get it.

Add the fact that Del Mar recently attempted to push through their jackpot change to the P-6 you can clearly see that they still don't get it. They backed off their planned change for the P-6 but it wasn't because they saw the light that it was a terrible bet for 99% of the bettors. They still want to make a change but will probably wait for their low profile fall meet to introduce it.

[1st time lasix]

Jeff is correct. I always look to the takeout rates when any meet starts to just refresh my memory---- so i do not play into any high takeout pools. I like to know the "rules" of the game I am playing. I am amazed when a handicapper does not. It takes longer to handicap a single race than to memorize the 'juice" hurdle. Without rebates a little guy who is a superior capper playing into 22 % plus takeouts can't win if he plays very long.

[ultracapper]

Del Mar lowered purses this summer. That was their economic response.

[EMD4ME]

Few on this site will want to acknowledge what you're saying. My home track, Emerald Downs, doesn't have squat for handle but they've got $7 parking, $7 admission, $7 beer, and $7 hamburgers, and they're banking enough of those sevens (that they don't have to share with anybody) that they can afford to keep the place spotlessly clean.

I'm pretty sure this info doesn't get shared publicly, but it would be interesting to know the breakdown between Churchill's net revenue for wagering vs.non-wagering sources on Derby/Oaks weekend.

As a close (like microscopic LMAO) follower of EMD, I am proud of the increases in handle this year. It doesn't sound like much but in many races now, they handle over $200,000. That is impressive to me.

[whodoyoulike]

...
I also found it interesting that many members of track management in Cali racing, management at brick and mortar OTBs, representatives from the TOC, and Labor Unions also took the podium - and all who spoke publicly bemoaned declines in revenue, layoffs, and cutbacks in hours for parimutuel clerks over the past few years (following the takeout increase they insisted on implementing Jan 01, 2011) but NONE of them spoke up in favor of the agenda item: Whether or not the CHRB should consider undertaking an economic study on takeout rates and their effect on handle and revenue. And many from track management and the President of the TOC voiced opposition to even the idea of an economic study of takeout and revenue.

Speaking honestly, I'm far from convinced track management at any California track "gets it" at all.



-jp

.

I think "they" do get it which is the reason for their stance against.

Did the CHRB commission the study?

If not, then I would think they get it also.

Btw, good work.

[JustRalph]

I can only assume they are making money on "other things" That are much easier to market and manage.

Let's face it. If any track is going to survive, Del Mar is it. The area is theeeee most beautiful place in the world. The per capita income of your local draw is probably highest in the nation. It speaks to the California lifestyle on so many levels. Hell, when I lived out there I flat loved everything about SoCal except the traffic and criminals. If you have enough money, those things don't get in the way.

[dilanesp]

Define great. Beating BHP is a low bar to get over.

Their live attendance averaged something like twice what BHP averaged when it had the fall meet. And they had 20,000 for California Chrome-- BHP couldn't even draw that for Zenyatta (14,000), and before closing day of the track, had not drawn a crowd that large at its fall meet since the 1997 Breeders' Cup.

And Del Mar did this charging far higher average ticket and parking charges than Betfair Hollywood Park did.

Meanwhile, Los Al, which picked up the remainder of BHP's dates, did EVEN WORSE than BHP did, meaning that it isn't such a "low bar" after all.

It turns out they really do know what they are doing down at Del Mar.

EDIT: More generally, I find the attempts to tear down the management of one of the few extremely profitable racetracks in the country very amusing.

I love lower takeout as much as anyone, but Del Mar's business model does not revolve around keeping bettors happy (and in California, tracks have limited control over takeout anyway). What Del Mar does do well is provide a wonderful environment to watch live racing. If you don't care about that, that's fine-- they have plenty of people who do and who pay the track a lot of money (DIRECTLY, not filtered through the churn of the betting windows) to enjoy it.

[theiman]

Is DM still seeding the Sunday Pick 6 pool, assuming there is no carryover from Saturdays card? I couldn't find it on the web site.

[taxicab]

Very good wagering cards to open the meet Thursday/Friday.
Sidebar: Anyone that can figure out the winner of the ridiculously tough Friday nightcap gets a gold star.

[AndyC]

Their live attendance averaged something like twice what BHP averaged when it had the fall meet. And they had 20,000 for California Chrome-- BHP couldn't even draw that for Zenyatta (14,000), and before closing day of the track, had not drawn a crowd that large at its fall meet since the 1997 Breeders' Cup.

And Del Mar did this charging far higher average ticket and parking charges than Betfair Hollywood Park did.

Meanwhile, Los Al, which picked up the remainder of BHP's dates, did EVEN WORSE than BHP did, meaning that it isn't such a "low bar" after all.

It turns out they really do know what they are doing down at Del Mar.

EDIT: More generally, I find the attempts to tear down the management of one of the few extremely profitable racetracks in the country very amusing.

I love lower takeout as much as anyone, but Del Mar's business model does not revolve around keeping bettors happy (and in California, tracks have limited control over takeout anyway). What Del Mar does do well is provide a wonderful environment to watch live racing. If you don't care about that, that's fine-- they have plenty of people who do and who pay the track a lot of money (DIRECTLY, not filtered through the churn of the betting windows) to enjoy it.


To say that any success Del Mar had in the fall is a result of management decisions is ridiculous. As a venue, Del Mar is head and shoulders above anything Hollywood Park ever offered. From a promotional standpoint they do a good job. From a player's standpoint they treat us like we don't exist.

[dilanesp]

To say that any success Del Mar had in the fall is a result of management decisions is ridiculous. As a venue, Del Mar is head and shoulders above anything Hollywood Park ever offered. From a promotional standpoint they do a good job. From a player's standpoint they treat us like we don't exist.

Why do you assume treating you like you exist is necessary to make money?

And actually, given that late fall dates are a total failure at both BHP and Los Al, and the weather sucks at Del Mar in November, their success at that meet while charging HIGH prices does show they know what they are doing.

[castaway01]

Why do you assume treating you like you exist is necessary to make money?

And actually, given that late fall dates are a total failure at both BHP and Los Al, and the weather sucks at Del Mar in November, their success at that meet while charging HIGH prices does show they know what they are doing.

No, it mainly shows Del Mar has such a great atmosphere compared to BHP and Los Al that it's a ridiculous comparison. And yeah, those 70-degree days in November must just be torture. No need to flat out lie to make your point.

[iceknight]

Their live attendance averaged something like twice what BHP averaged when it had the fall meet. And they had 20,000 for California Chrome-- BHP couldn't even draw that for Zenyatta (14,000), and before closing day of the track, had not drawn a crowd that large at its fall meet since the 1997 Breeders' Cup..While Del Mar has its other positives, the comparison of 2009 to 2014 may not be proper as 2008 saw a big financial crisis and might have had an impact on people's discretionary outings.

[AndyC]

Why do you assume treating you like you exist is necessary to make money?

And actually, given that late fall dates are a total failure at both BHP and Los Al, and the weather sucks at Del Mar in November, their success at that meet while charging HIGH prices does show they know what they are doing.

I make no assumptions. I am merely making the point that Del Mar really is doing nothing that other tracks aren't doing. They just happen to be doing it in the best location in the US.

As for making money, I am a pure free market capitalist. They are free to pursue any avenue they feel will make their product successful and I as a consumer will pay for their product if it suits my needs. Because my interests are strictly as a bettor, I don't feel that their product/pricing fits my needs. I also feel that a good consumer lets a business owner know what their needs are.

[Fingal]

This is an email I got today-

Do Opening Day in style at a Private Party in the Blue Moon Celebrity Grill overlooking the paddock!
Your $250 ticket includes food and drink, with menu items ranging from Crunchy Tempura Green Beans to Brandt Beef Sliders, Broccoli and Cheddar Melts and you can't leave out desserts like Del Mar's Signature Carrot Cake.
The open bar will keep the party flowing with beer, wine and everyone's favorite signature drinks: the Del Margarita and Del Mojito.

[elhelmete]

I'll just say this, my weekend with the wife at DMR last November is tops on my list of best on-track experience, better than several summer trips and 2 BCs.

[AndyC]

I'll just say this, my weekend with the wife at DMR last November is tops on my list of best on-track experience, better than several summer trips and 2 BCs.

What in particular did Del Mar do that you didn't get from your other trips? Del Mar in the fall with perfect weather and no summer crowds is a hard place to beat.

[elhelmete]

What in particular did Del Mar do that you didn't get from your other trips? Del Mar in the fall with perfect weather and no summer crowds is a hard place to beat.

The bolded. It's just the perfect storm.

[Robert Fischer]

I enjoy reading the two sides here stubbornly disagreeing.

While we are unlikely to see folks change their preconceived ideas, it does point to some truths for both sides.

[Robert Fischer]

We know they could do better business in many cases if they took the time to calculate+adjust optimum takeout.

We know some days such as the derby, people behave too irrational for an optimum takeout to be 'optimum' so that tracks do best to gouge a little bit.

We know that tracks could do a better job of utilizing the media and sponsors.

lot of room for improvement and most of it is basic shit that can be logically explained in simple terms

[Inner Dirt]

They do great in November. Much better than BHP did.

Del Mar is in a quiet low crime small town on the beach. Hollywood Park was just down the road from Watts and Compton, an area that has more street gang members than seagulls on the beach at Del Mar. Hollywood Park was hands down in the worst area of any of the tracks I attended. If you won at Del Mar you wanted to celebrate at a fine local seafood restaurant, if you won at Hollywood Park you just hoped you could make it to your car without getting mugged.

[AndyC]

Is DM still seeding the Sunday Pick 6 pool, assuming there is no carryover from Saturdays card? I couldn't find it on the web site.

No. Only seeding on Pacific Classic day for $250,000. They are putting all of their promotional efforts and seeding into the P-4. Reading between the lines, I would say that DM management wants to see the P-6 betting deteriorate some more so they can implement the stupid jackpot bet in the fall with the cover of eroding play.

[dilanesp]

No, it mainly shows Del Mar has such a great atmosphere compared to BHP and Los Al that it's a ridiculous comparison. And yeah, those 70-degree days in November must just be torture. No need to flat out lie to make your point.

It can get a lot colder than 70 degrees during the course of a race day at Del Mar in November.

When I went there, it was about 55 and drizzling when I left the track. Certainly not nearly as nice as it is in the summer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceknight
While Del Mar has its other positives, the comparison of 2009 to 2014 may not be proper as 2008 saw a big financial crisis and might have had an impact on people's discretionary outings.


It isn't just 2008. Betfair Hollywood Park basically went 15 years never drawing over 9,000 a single time at its fall meeting except for the one Zenyatta race. Then Del Mar comes along, and....

Originally Posted by AndyC
I make no assumptions. I am merely making the point that Del Mar really is doing nothing that other tracks aren't doing. They just happen to be doing it in the best location in the US.

As for making money, I am a pure free market capitalist. They are free to pursue any avenue they feel will make their product successful and I as a consumer will pay for their product if it suits my needs. Because my interests are strictly as a bettor, I don't feel that their product/pricing fits my needs. I also feel that a good consumer lets a business owner know what their needs are.


Very true. But what's not understood on this board is a good business owner doesn't necessarily respond to every customer. And specifically, if there's someone else out there that the business owner can make more money from, they may design the business model for THAT customer and not you.

Del Mar is successful, and achieves that success while not going after the Pace Advantage market, which wants cheap admission and low takeout. That doesn't make them wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Dirt
Del Mar is in a quiet low crime small town on the beach. Hollywood Park was just down the road from Watts and Compton, an area that has more street gang members than seagulls on the beach at Del Mar. Hollywood Park was hands down in the worst area of any of the tracks I attended. If you won at Del Mar you wanted to celebrate at a fine local seafood restaurant, if you won at Hollywood Park you just hoped you could make it to your car without getting mugged.


Hollywood Park was enormously successful in the 1970's and 1980's (as was the Forum next door), when the crime rate in Inglewood was far HIGHER than it has been in recent years. And the Forum has survived as a concert venue even now and draws huge crowds. People aren't afraid of Inglewood. (Indeed, in general, people aren't afraid of sports events in "bad" neighborhoods. The Coliseum and the Home Depot Center are successful too.)

[Inner Dirt]

Hollywood Park was enormously successful in the 1970's and 1980's (as was the Forum next door), when the crime rate in Inglewood was far HIGHER than it has been in recent years. And the Forum has survived as a concert venue even now and draws huge crowds. People aren't afraid of Inglewood. (Indeed, in general, people aren't afraid of sports events in "bad" neighborhoods. The Coliseum and the Home Depot Center are successful too.)

In the 70's until the late 80's the only place to bet Hollywood Park was at track, Las Vegas or Tijuana Mexico. Quite a large group known to me (Friends and OTB acquaintances) stopped attending Hollywood Park in person once Southern California OTBs became popular while still attending Santa Anita and DelMar in person.

[dilanesp]

In the 70's until the late 80's the only place to bet Hollywood Park was at track, Las Vegas or Tijuana Mexico. Quite a large group known to me (Friends and OTB acquaintances) stopped attending Hollywood Park in person once Southern California OTBs became popular while still attending Santa Anita and DelMar in person.

That's quite possible as an explanation, but it's worth noting that Hollywood Park continued to be financially successful under RD Hubbard's ownership, and the casino was opened in that same period and made money too (despite being in the same "bad" area).

Again, there's just all sorts of sports and gambling venues in "bad" parts of Los Angeles. Betfair Hollywood Park is basically the ONLY one that failed. That should tell you something.

[whodoyoulike]

That's quite possible as an explanation, but it's worth noting that Hollywood Park continued to be financially successful under RD Hubbard's ownership, and the casino was opened in that same period and made money too (despite being in the same "bad" area).

Again, there's just all sorts of sports and gambling venues in "bad" parts of Los Angeles. Betfair Hollywood Park is basically the ONLY one that failed. That should tell you something.

I'm uncertain why HP failed. I always liked that race course. And, it's true about the surrounding neighborhood, I was always concerned about having car trouble before reaching the freeway on ramp and this was years ago.

But, when it was last sold wasn't there rumors of it being purchased with the idea of turning the site into condos and shopping similar to Bay Meadows?

[Inner Dirt]

That's quite possible as an explanation, but it's worth noting that Hollywood Park continued to be financially successful under RD Hubbard's ownership, and the casino was opened in that same period and made money too (despite being in the same "bad" area).

Again, there's just all sorts of sports and gambling venues in "bad" parts of Los Angeles. Betfair Hollywood Park is basically the ONLY one that failed. That should tell you something.

I actually was mugged at Hollywood park in 1980. I guess someone saw me exit the large transaction area after a race. Oddly deciding to quit while I
was well ahead I left with a few harness races to go on a Friday night. I woke up in the parking lot with a bloody head and no $900 or so in my pocket. I still went back after that but kept eyes in the back of my head if I didn't leave with the last race masses. The other area gambling venues (mostly card clubs) had smaller well lit parking lots paroled by armed security guards in golf carts, also anyone drunk and disorderly or loitering suspiciously in a card club was escorted out. Hollywood Park had plenty of seedy characters just hanging out. Hollywood Park did not have decent security for a small venue. let alone a large one. I loved all the racing but the venue left a lot to be desired.

[dilanesp]

I actually was mugged at Hollywood park in 1980. I guess someone saw me exit the large transaction area after a race. Oddly deciding to quit while I
was well ahead I left with a few harness races to go on a Friday night. I woke up in the parking lot with a bloody head and no $900 or so in my pocket. I still went back after that but kept eyes in the back of my head if I didn't leave with the last race masses. The other area gambling venues (mostly card clubs) had smaller well lit parking lots paroled by armed security guards in golf carts, also anyone drunk and disorderly or loitering suspiciously in a card club was escorted out. Hollywood Park had plenty of seedy characters just hanging out. Hollywood Park did not have decent security for a small venue. let alone a large one. I loved all the racing but the venue left a lot to be desired.

Well, I played 15-30 hold 'em there for a couple of years, often had $4,000 cash on me as I entered and left the casino, and never once had a problem.

I also suffered a car breakdown at 1 am on the track's 50th Anniversary night card, right on Century Blvd. And the locals could not have been more helpful.

Meanwhile, there were a bunch of follow-home robberies from COMMERCE casino a few years ago, which is in a nicer area. And when I was a kid, pickpockets at Santa Anita (again, nicer part of town) were a huge problem. That may indicate that to the extent these problems exist, they have to do with the amounts of money that are around and not the neighborhoods.

Something happens to someone at Santa Anita, and people ascribe it to the enterprise of gambling. Something happens to someone at Hollywood Park, and they ascribe it to the "bad neighborhood". Gee, I wonder why....

[ReplayRandall]

I also suffered a car breakdown at 1 am on the track's 50th Anniversary night card, right on Century Blvd.

Sounds like you stole a scene from Kevin Kline in the movie, "Grand Canyon"......

[Inner Dirt]

Well, I played 15-30 hold 'em there for a couple of years, often had $4,000 cash on me as I entered and left the casino, and never once had a problem.

I also suffered a car breakdown at 1 am on the track's 50th Anniversary night card, right on Century Blvd. And the locals could not have been more helpful.

Meanwhile, there were a bunch of follow-home robberies from COMMERCE casino a few years ago, which is in a nicer area. And when I was a kid, pickpockets at Santa Anita (again, nicer part of town) were a huge problem. That may indicate that to the extent these problems exist, they have to do with the amounts of money that are around and not the neighborhoods.

Something happens to someone at Santa Anita, and people ascribe it to the enterprise of gambling. Something happens to someone at Hollywood Park, and they ascribe it to the "bad neighborhood". Gee, I wonder why....

I have no idea what your getting at, are you mocking my use of the word "bad neighborhood?" Are you trying to say just cause you didn't get rolled Hollywood Park and the surrounding areas are safe as any other track? I haven't been to Hollywood Park in 25 years, maybe security is better after the Casino was put in. I recall a lot of the businesses and homes around Hollywood Park had bars on the widows, something you didn't see at Santa Anita or Del Mar. I doubt people barred the windows for decoration.

[Poindexter]

Been to Hollywood Park many times(over 300 times I am sure) over the years. Back in the Western Harness days I would go to the Laker games and then run to Hollywood park to catch the last few harness races. Never, had much of an issue driving to and from, BUT, true story. One time I was at the light turning left from Centinela trying to get on to Century. There were 3 young black guys in a convertible next to me(this is probably about 17 or 18 years ago). Wasn't really paying a lot of attention to them, but did hear 1 of them yell shoot him(referring to me). Did not really react, do not know if they were just trying to scare me or get a rise out of me or just playing, but not unknown for gang members to shoot people at random (especially back then). So while in general, you can drive through bad neighborhoods no problem often and there are far worse areas then Inglewood, and the scene from Grand Canyon was a ridiculous exaggeration, it only takes 1 time to be life changing or life ending......So while I never let the area deter me from going to Hollywood Park(it could have been in a far worse area and I still would have gone before the days of betting online), I certainly understand why some do. I believe the area always kept many from attending Hollywood Park.

[dilanesp]

Sounds like you stole a scene from Kevin Kline in the movie, "Grand Canyon"......

When I saw that movie, i told all my friends "hey something like that happened to me!".

They also did that in "Crash". It is actually something of a movie cliche.

[dilanesp]

I have no idea what your getting at, are you mocking my use of the word "bad neighborhood?" Are you trying to say just cause you didn't get rolled Hollywood Park and the surrounding areas are safe as any other track? I haven't been to Hollywood Park in 25 years, maybe security is better after the Casino was put in. I recall a lot of the businesses and homes around Hollywood Park had bars on the widows, something you didn't see at Santa Anita or Del Mar. I doubt people barred the windows for decoration.

Inglewood these days is a pretty safe place. There are no bars on any of the windows of the big shopping center next to the track.

Inglewood in the 1970's was a less safe place, though it was never Watts. A lot of whites in LA are racist and assume anywhere blacks live must be the ghetto. Inglewood never was that. It was working class and middle class.

But the big thing is, those whites still went to the track for many years, still went to the Forum, and still go to the Coliseum, the Home Depot Center, and Hustler Casino now.

BHP did not die because it is in a supposedly "bad" neighborhood.

[AndyC]

Inglewood in the 1970's was a less safe place, though it was never Watts. A lot of whites in LA are racist and assume anywhere blacks live must be the ghetto. Inglewood never was that. It was working class and middle class.

On my many trips to HP from San Diego in the 70s and 80s I noticed that Inglewood was a working class city. There seemed to be a girl working on every corner near the racetrack.

[theiman]

On my many trips to HP from San Diego in the 70s and 80s I noticed that Inglewood was a working class city. There seemed to be a girl working on every corner near the racetrack.

Rodney Dangerfield would be proud of your post. :lol:

[Inner Dirt]

Inglewood these days is a pretty safe place. There are no bars on any of the windows of the big shopping center next to the track.

Inglewood in the 1970's was a less safe place, though it was never Watts. A lot of whites in LA are racist and assume anywhere blacks live must be the ghetto. Inglewood never was that. It was working class and middle class.

But the big thing is, those whites still went to the track for many years, still went to the Forum, and still go to the Coliseum, the Home Depot Center, and Hustler Casino now.

BHP did not die because it is in a supposedly "bad" neighborhood.

If unfamiliar with an area I look for bars in the windows and how unkept an area is (Broken glass in the streets, dilapidated buildings etc,etc) to judge
how safe it is, not the color of the residents. Inglewood isn't Watts or Compton, but it would be far fetched to not think residents of those high crime areas would not venture to Inglewood to rob and steal.

[Dark Horse]

HANDLE PER RACE ANALYSIS DMR 2014 vs. SAR 2014

COL-A COL-B COL-C COL-D COL- E
-----------------------------------------------------------
% RATIO TAKEOUT PCT
WAGER DMR 2014 SAR 2014 DMR/SAR DMR SAR
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
WPS 357,191.42 431,591.93 0.8276 15.43 16.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
EXA 191,623.58 349,769.78 0.5479 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
QUIN 9,616.63 17,509.86 0.5492 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
DD 51,382.56 109,866.97 0.4677 20.00 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
TRI 128,401.10 200,302.83 0.6410 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P3 90,587.11 96,380.09 0.9399 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
SUPER 90,214.33 104,983.19 0.8593 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P4 309,936.53 428,709.63 0.7230 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
High5 54,307.78 -NA- -NA- 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P5 542,446.00 334,177.73 1.6232 14.00 15.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
P6 363,049.75 165,065.08 2.1994 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
OTHER 24,337.28 35,594.83 0.6837 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
FLDSIZE 8.78 7.97 1.1020
-----------------------------------------------------------



I'm not sure the takeout is behind the huge exacta difference. Isn't the betting crowd at Saratoga much more seasoned than at Del Mar?

Do you have the numbers for Santa Anita? Especially the WPS/Exacta/Trifecta ratios?

[Thomas Roulston]

The new turf course is 80 feet wide; the old one had a width of 63 feet.

Apparently the Breeders' Cup observes an 80-foot minimum width for its turf races, so as to permit 14-horse fields (which in turn means that a width of just under 115 feet would be necessary for 20-horse fields, if a 20-stall starting gate were to be built, and not an auxiliary gate as the Derby uses, to eliminate the gap between the regular gate and the auxiliary gate).

And on aggregate, larger fields mean more handle (turf races on the old course scratched to 10) - so this may improve Del Mar's numbers in this area.

[PIC6SIX]

I went to Delmar opening day. I did not imbibe but I heard a 10-12 oz beer was $9 and a companion on the train home said Margharita was $15. Anyone know if these were actual costs. If so, it seems to me they prefer to rip customers off on food vice the gambling take??? Anyone know if these prices are real?????? Thanks

[ubercapper]

Very good wagering cards to open the meet Thursday/Friday.
Sidebar: Anyone that can figure out the winner of the ridiculously tough Friday nightcap gets a gold star.

Urlovneverfails, but then again she is the morning line favorite so not much of a surprise.

[Jeff P]

I'm not sure the takeout is behind the huge exacta difference. Isn't the betting crowd at Saratoga much more seasoned than at Del Mar?

Do you have the numbers for Santa Anita? Especially the WPS/Exacta/Trifecta ratios?
I spent some time early this morning running Santa Anita and Belmont numbers for 2014.

A similar trend exists, although not quite as severe as that seen in the DMR vs. SAR comparison posted earlier.

HANDLE PER RACE ANALYSIS SAX 2014 vs. BEL 2014

COL-A COL-B COL-C COL-D COL- E
-----------------------------------------------------------
% RATIO TAKEOUT PCT
WAGER SAX 2014 BEL 2014 SAX/BEL SAX BEL
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
WPS 323,579.22 321,349.93 1.0069 15.43 16.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
EXA 189,577.57 237,549.86 0.7981 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
TRI 137,823.47 159,191.82 0.8658 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
FLDSIZE 7.95 7.72 1.0298
-----------------------------------------------------------

Comments/Notes:

1. The above handle summary compares WPS, EXA, and TRI pools for Santa Anita (3 meets, 1158 races) against WPS, EXA, and TRI pools for Belmont (2 meets, 856 races) during calendar year 2014. All handle numbers are expressed as handle per race.

2. Column B lists average handle and field size per race for SAX 2014.

3. Column C lists average handle and field size per race for BEL 2014.

4. Column D lists SAX numbers expressed as a percentage of BEL numbers.

5. Column E lists a side by side comparison of takeout rates for SAX and BEL.

6. For WPS wagers, where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates, both tracks handled approximately the same amount. (With SAX handling 1.0069x more than BEL did.)

7. For EXA wagers there is a wide differential in takeout rates. Also, SAX at 7.95 had slightly bigger avg field size than BEL did at 7.72.

Yet Santa Anita exacta pools underperformed, handling just 79.81% as much as Belmont did.

If it isn't the takeout, what do you think is causing bettors to shun California's exacta pools?



-jp

.

[ultracapper]

Urlovneverfails, but then again she is the morning line favorite so not much of a surprise.

There sure is a lot to like about that filly though, favorite or not. Heck of a debut.

[surfdog89]

RACE 8 Urloveneverfails

She never did change leads coming down the lane......any improvement she will break her maiden in this Cal Bred maiden special weight nightcap at Del Mar........Long Shot just might be the rail filly Olympic Lady

[dilanesp]

I went to Delmar opening day. I did not imbibe but I heard a 10-12 oz beer was $9 and a companion on the train home said Margharita was $15. Anyone know if these were actual costs. If so, it seems to me they prefer to rip customers off on food vice the gambling take??? Anyone know if these prices are real?????? Thanks

Of course they are. You've never been to places where upper class people and young people drink alcohol in the summer, have you?

People pay the $15 for the margarita, because Del Mar is fun. Especially if you are young and female and wearing a sundress and there with your friends.

And if you can market your track in that way, you make tons of money on overpriced drink sales, instead of having to churn your regular gambler's money through the pools as many times as possible to claim a small percentage.

[ultracapper]

If there's a sleeper in that nightcap, it may be the #3 Golden Mamba. She trained real nice up to her debut down the hill. James Cassidy has taken quite a shine to Santiago Gonzalez also, and the kid sticks with it here. I was kind of surprised how well she was relatively bet in her last, which was won by an obvious odds-on filly. #10 Rockin Dorita may be a very fast filly also, but I think the front end may get crowded in this race. I know I'm passing it. It is a toughie once you get past Hollendorfer's.

[taxicab]

The money came in early/often (and in the multi's) on the winner of the nightcap{5-1}.
Rockin Dorita was hit pretty good in the Win/DD/P-3.
The morning line on RD was 12-1.....he sure wasn't bet like it.
The Eric Kruljac (a very good trainer) barn isn't a "betting barn" as a rule of thumb.....so the action meant something.

[Stillriledup]

Of course they are. You've never been to places where upper class people and young people drink alcohol in the summer, have you?

People pay the $15 for the margarita, because Del Mar is fun. Especially if you are young and female and wearing a sundress and there with your friends.

And if you can market your track in that way, you make tons of money on overpriced drink sales, instead of having to churn your regular gambler's money through the pools as many times as possible to claim a small percentage.

Do you get a cut of each adult beverage sold? Comes across as anti social, anti player and pro establishment.

Why 'stick up for' the house unless you're getting a cut?

[Stillriledup]

I went to Delmar opening day. I did not imbibe but I heard a 10-12 oz beer was $9 and a companion on the train home said Margharita was $15. Anyone know if these were actual costs. If so, it seems to me they prefer to rip customers off on food vice the gambling take??? Anyone know if these prices are real?????? Thanks

I agree it's a ripoff, it should be illegal to charge those prices.

[castaway01]

I'm not sure the takeout is behind the huge exacta difference. Isn't the betting crowd at Saratoga much more seasoned than at Del Mar?

Do you have the numbers for Santa Anita? Especially the WPS/Exacta/Trifecta ratios?

Since the vast majority of the money is being bet off track from all over the country, it doesn't really matter how "seasoned" the locals are anymore.

[dilanesp]

Do you get a cut of each adult beverage sold? Comes across as anti social, anti player and pro establishment.

Why 'stick up for' the house unless you're getting a cut?

I stick up for the house for a few reasons:

1. The sport's in trouble. Racetracks need money. If a racetrack can make a profit selling $15 margaritas, to me, that's good, not bad, because it increases the likelihood that I will continue to get to go to the races at Del Mar year after year.

2. I have an enormous amount of contempt for cheap people. Every time I get on an airplane, I curse the cheap people who refuse to pay for any level of service. Because that's why we get lousy service. I would rather see a high price, high service equilibrium rather than a low price, low service equilibrium. I think Claim Jumper is a nicer place to eat than Jack in the Box. I think Starbucks made drinking coffee in the morning a much more pleasant experience. And yes, I enjoy going to a nice track like Del Mar with thousands of good looking people having fun a lot more than I enjoy going to Pimlico on a typical raceday with nothing but a handful of grizzled horseplayers who look like they don't want to be there.

If cheap people ruled the world, all of our public facilities would look like Jack in the Box, Pimlico, and the coach section of an airliner. They ruin things for the rest of us who are willing to pay for service. So yeah, I favor Del Mar's high priced model. I like it better.

3. Even if I didn't believe 2, however, I would still favor Del Mar's model for the simple reason that it makes more economic sense. It's the same reason sports stadiums are full of luxury boxes. I frankly do not understand why cheap people feel that businesses should compete for THEIR business. If you owned Del Mar, who would you cater to-- cheap horseplayers or wealthy tourists and party animals who will spend tens or even hundreds of times more money when they go to the track?

The point of running a business is to get your customers to spend money. Horseplayers here seem to say "I don't want to spend money, and I want the business to cater to me and not the folks who do". That's not a realistic attitude-- if you are cheap, expect businesses to go to any lengths necessary to find a customer base that makes them more money than you do. It's only when they can't that they will cater to you.

[Stillriledup]

There's a difference between cheap and asking a person to overpay for the margarita. At 15 bucks it's 'bad value'

Does a person have to make terrible financial decisions to avoid being called cheap by you?

[elhelmete]

There's a difference between cheap and asking a person to overpay for the margarita. At 15 bucks it's 'bad value'

Does a person have to make terrible financial decisions to avoid being called cheap by you?

Like it or not, that $15 is quite probably the median price of a marg within 15 miles of DMR.

[Stillriledup]

Like it or not, that $15 is quite probably the median price of a marg within 15 miles of DMR.

I just called the Brig which overlooks the track and asked about Margaritas, the guy said they range from 6.50 to 14 dollars for the fancy ones, he said you can get a really solid one for about 8 bucks.

[elhelmete]

I just called the Brig which overlooks the track and asked about Margaritas, the guy said they range from 6.50 to 14 dollars for the fancy ones, he said you can get a really solid one for about 8 bucks.

Hey while you're at it, call Dead Tracton's, Pamplemouse, The Market, L'Auberge, etc. And calculate the median for me. :rolleyes:

[Valuist]

How about that last race? Gates open and Sweet Mz Poppet is 9-2. After she secures the lead heading into the turn, she drops to 7-2. She crosses under the wire at 5-2. Nice, real nice. :rolleyes: 9-2 to 5-2 is a huge drop.

[Stillriledup]

Hey while you're at it, call Dead Tracton's, Pamplemouse, The Market, L'Auberge, etc. And calculate the median for me. :rolleyes:

I called the restaurant that's closest to the track. If the 15 dollar price on track is true, it's double what you pay 300 yards away.

How about YOU call Reds and Pamp and see if anyone is selling them for 15.

[HoofedInTheChest]

2. I have an enormous amount of contempt for cheap people.


What is your definition of cheap?

[dilanesp]

What is your definition of cheap?

People who value price over any factor of quality in determining their purchases.

An example is air travelers who will choose the lousiest possible carrier if it will save them $20 on the purchase price of the ticket.

[Robert Fischer]

I think you have a point Dilanesp.

There's an equilibrium where you wouldn't mind the price go up, provided that price difference is for the most part made up through quality and atmosphere.

But nobody likes to wastefully spend, even in Del Mar or San Diego.

Many places offer events, and specials that do quite well.

There has to be a balance. I've never been to Del Mar and I can't handicap the 'prices' from here.

$2-window trackgoers should be able to buy a beer without skipping a their exacta ticket for a race too. Base price sounds a bit high for the cheapest beer from the standard area.

tough call :ThmbUp:

[AndyC]

People who value price over any factor of quality in determining their purchases.

An example is air travelers who will choose the lousiest possible carrier if it will save them $20 on the purchase price of the ticket.

So you are getting quality paying $11 for a Coors Light?

[AndyC]

2. I have an enormous amount of contempt for cheap people.....

I have an enormous amount of contempt for any arrogant SOB who feels a need to call someone cheap because someone thinks charging $15 for a margarita is a bit much. But what do I know? I am just part of the hoi polloi.

[dilanesp]

I think you have a point Dilanesp.

There's an equilibrium where you wouldn't mind the price go up, provided that price difference is for the most part made up through quality and atmosphere.

But nobody likes to wastefully spend, even in Del Mar or San Diego.

Many places offer events, and specials that do quite well.

There has to be a balance. I've never been to Del Mar and I can't handicap the 'prices' from here.

$2-window trackgoers should be able to buy a beer without skipping a their exacta ticket for a race too. Base price sounds a bit high for the cheapest beer from the standard area.

tough call :ThmbUp:

I think what you are missing is that the $15 isn't the cost of a margarita. It's the cost of a margarita AT DEL MAR, with the pretty girls in dresses and the beautiful environment and the hills in the backdrop and the high quality racing.

What you all seem to be saying is that a margarita should cost the same at Del Mar as it would in a dive bar. But why should that be true? Is that true with movie theater popcorn? With food at sports events?

In many big cities, there are bars and restaurants on the top floors of giant skyscrapers. They generally charge more than ground level bars and restaurants. It isn't because the drinks are more expensive to make; it's that part of the experience of eating and drinking that you are being charged for is the amazing view.

So it is at Del Mar.

[dilanesp]

I have an enormous amount of contempt for any arrogant SOB who feels a need to call someone cheap because someone thinks charging $15 for a margarita is a bit much. But what do I know? I am just part of the hoi polloi.

If it's a bit much, don't pay it. Go to grubbier racetracks where admission is cheaper and reserved seats are cheaper and alcoholic beverages are cheaper. Where there is dirt and grunge everywhere and the beautiful people never set foot. That is totally your right.

My problem with cheap people is they want to make the whole world like that, and I'd rather have nice places to go to that I can pay for.

[Robert Fischer]

There's an event @ Del Mar next Saturday (San Diego Craft Beer Fest) and again August 29.

Once you pay your $6 admission, for $20 you get a wristband that entitles you to 5 7oz tastings of craft beer. Advance purchases save another $4.

That all saves a few bucks for a guy who normally has a few beers. Also should be a lot better beer as well. Hopefully they let you go and bet and come back as you are ready to sample another brew.

[ultracapper]

How about that last race? Gates open and Sweet Mz Poppet is 9-2. After she secures the lead heading into the turn, she drops to 7-2. She crosses under the wire at 5-2. Nice, real nice. :rolleyes: 9-2 to 5-2 is a huge drop.

I honestly thought that horse would go off at Even money in that field. I was slobbering all over myself when he was 6-1 when the betting started. I really started doubting myself. When he dropped to 7-2, I thought oh well, just another day. But when he dropped to 5-2, I just said, figures.

That horse should have been odds on in that field.

[Valuist]

I honestly thought that horse would go off at Even money in that field. I was slobbering all over myself when he was 6-1 when the betting started. I really started doubting myself. When he dropped to 7-2, I thought oh well, just another day. But when he dropped to 5-2, I just said, figures.

That horse should have been odds on in that field.

You may be right, but that's not really relevant here. Two separate odds drop well after the start within the race (the second odds drop in the final furlong). Something has to be done. This is Del Mar we are talking about. I'd expect that kind of odds shift at a nighttime track like CT or Mnr. If all the batch betting can't be processed earlier, we need to stop betting a minute before the race. Of course that's assuming there's no "funny business", or late open window. And I think it would be foolish to make that assumption.

[AndyC]

If it's a bit much, don't pay it. Go to grubbier racetracks where admission is cheaper and reserved seats are cheaper and alcoholic beverages are cheaper. Where there is dirt and grunge everywhere and the beautiful people never set foot. That is totally your right.

My problem with cheap people is they want to make the whole world like that, and I'd rather have nice places to go to that I can pay for.

I don't and I won't pay it.

I wonder why Las Vegas hasn't adopted your viewpoint? Charge their players triple to quadruple the price for drinks and watch the high rollers pour in.

Get off your high horse. People aren't cheap if they don't want to pay $15 for a margarita or $11 for a Coors Light. If someone needs an alcohol fix that badly perhaps they should be seeking counseling.

[ultracapper]

You may be right, but that's not really relevant here. Two separate odds drop well after the start within the race (the second odds drop in the final furlong). Something has to be done. This is Del Mar we are talking about. I'd expect that kind of odds shift at a nighttime track like CT or Mnr. If all the batch betting can't be processed earlier, we need to stop betting a minute before the race. Of course that's assuming there's no "funny business", or late open window. And I think it would be foolish to make that assumption.

I guess my point was that, considering the odds at post time, it shouldn't have been surprising that heavy money came in on it late. However, I do see your point, and fully agree with it. Get that money counted and into the pools before they're taking the winner's picture, for crying out loud.

[dilanesp]

I don't and I won't pay it.

I wonder why Las Vegas hasn't adopted your viewpoint? Charge their players triple to quadruple the price for drinks and watch the high rollers pour in.

Get off your high horse. People aren't cheap if they don't want to pay $15 for a margarita or $11 for a Coors Light. If someone needs an alcohol fix that badly perhaps they should be seeking counseling.

It makes me laugh that you think there aren't places in Las Vegas where a drink is expensive.

[ultracapper]

They're expensive in the casinos if you're not gaming.

[dogkatcher]

How do you pick 6 guys like Whale City Mar. So far they've carded races in the sequence with 5 or more First Time Starters, so spread your cheeks wide please.

Tomorrow they outdid themselves with a full field of 11 FTS in the Pick6, I don't know how they let a 1 start wonder in today's 7th.

Smells like Saratoga to me, but I know some of you enjoy this stuff, good luck,

The Minot

alias dogkatcher

[AndyC]

It makes me laugh that you think there aren't places in Las Vegas where a drink is expensive.

Humor me. What casino in Las Vegas charges their players for drinks?

[HoofedInTheChest]

People who value price over any factor of quality in determining their purchases.

An example is air travelers who will choose the lousiest possible carrier if it will save them $20 on the purchase price of the ticket.
By my definition, “cheap” is someone that has money and is not willing to part with it.

On the flipside, there are people out there that don’t have a lot of money, and are doing the best with what they have. Calling them “cheap” is pretty ignorant.

I have to ask, do you consider yourself one of the “beautiful people”?

I appreciate your insight Richard, i know exactly what i’m dealing with now.

[dilanesp]

Humor me. What casino in Las Vegas charges their players for drinks?

Any casino that has a fancy bar, nightclub, or restaurant. You only get free drinks in the gaming areas.

At any rate, California law prohibits Del Mar from comping drinks anyway, so this is academic.

[dilanesp]

By my definition, “cheap” is someone that has money and is not willing to part with it.

On the flipside, there are people out there that don’t have a lot of money, and are doing the best with what they have. Calling them “cheap” is pretty ignorant.

I have to ask, do you consider yourself one of the “beautiful people”?

I appreciate your insight Richard, i know exactly what i’m dealing with now.

People with no money shouldn't be gambling at the racetrack.

[Stillriledup]

I stick up for the house for a few reasons:

1. The sport's in trouble. Racetracks need money. If a racetrack can make a profit selling $15 margaritas, to me, that's good, not bad, because it increases the likelihood that I will continue to get to go to the races at Del Mar year after year.

2. I have an enormous amount of contempt for cheap people. Every time I get on an airplane, I curse the cheap people who refuse to pay for any level of service. Because that's why we get lousy service. I would rather see a high price, high service equilibrium rather than a low price, low service equilibrium. I think Claim Jumper is a nicer place to eat than Jack in the Box. I think Starbucks made drinking coffee in the morning a much more pleasant experience. And yes, I enjoy going to a nice track like Del Mar with thousands of good looking people having fun a lot more than I enjoy going to Pimlico on a typical raceday with nothing but a handful of grizzled horseplayers who look like they don't want to be there.

If cheap people ruled the world, all of our public facilities would look like Jack in the Box, Pimlico, and the coach section of an airliner. They ruin things for the rest of us who are willing to pay for service. So yeah, I favor Del Mar's high priced model. I like it better.

3. Even if I didn't believe 2, however, I would still favor Del Mar's model for the simple reason that it makes more economic sense. It's the same reason sports stadiums are full of luxury boxes. I frankly do not understand why cheap people feel that businesses should compete for THEIR business. If you owned Del Mar, who would you cater to-- cheap horseplayers or wealthy tourists and party animals who will spend tens or even hundreds of times more money when they go to the track?

The point of running a business is to get your customers to spend money. Horseplayers here seem to say "I don't want to spend money, and I want the business to cater to me and not the folks who do". That's not a realistic attitude-- if you are cheap, expect businesses to go to any lengths necessary to find a customer base that makes them more money than you do. It's only when they can't that they will cater to you.

So charging 15 bucks for a margarita might get the sport 'healthy' again?

I'm pretty sure I've explained to you that not wanting to get ripped off and being cheap are two different things and yet you keep spouting the same company line. Calling someone cheap is taking a shot at them, many people aren't made of money, those people would have no problem paying a fair price for the beverages, even at a healthy markup, but 15 is gouging and to call someone cheap because they don't want to be ripped off is pretty Assinine. You're a smart guy, but you're just not right on this issue, not everyone who doesn't want to pay 15 for a drink is cheap. Also, who just has one drink? How many people who went to opening day who had only one drink? I would imagine not too many.

[dilanesp]

So charging 15 bucks for a margarita might get the sport 'healthy' again?

I'm pretty sure I've explained to you that not wanting to get ripped off and being cheap are two different things and yet you keep spouting the same company line. Calling someone cheap is taking a shot at them, many people aren't made of money, those people would have no problem paying a fair price for the beverages, even at a healthy markup, but 15 is gouging and to call someone cheap because they don't want to be ripped off is pretty Assinine. You're a smart guy, but you're just not right on this issue, not everyone who doesn't want to pay 15 for a drink is cheap. Also, who just has one drink? How many people who went to opening day who had only one drink? I would imagine not too many.

Someone who gets upset that Starbucks doesn't sell coffee for 50 cents a cup, and bashes on them, even though plenty of Starbucks customers love the place and happily pay $3.50 for lattes, is cheap.

The point is, nobody in the entertainment business has any obligation to keep prices low when there is a willing market to pay high prices. There are plenty of places where you can go to get a cheap margarita. A place that gets 40,000 mostly upper class people to come to its opening day is not one of them.

Indeed, Del Mar happens to be a really fun place that attracts people who are fun to be around. Tracks that charge less have empty grandstands with nasty people wandering around. Charging a high price is how you keep the riff -raff out, and that's good for everyone else.

[Stillriledup]

Someone who gets upset that Starbucks doesn't sell coffee for 50 cents a cup, and bashes on them, even though plenty of Starbucks customers love the place and happily pay $3.50 for lattes, is cheap.

The point is, nobody in the entertainment business has any obligation to keep prices low when there is a willing market to pay high prices. There are plenty of places where you can go to get a cheap margarita. A place that gets 40,000 mostly upper class people to come to its opening day is not one of them.

Indeed, Del Mar happens to be a really fun place that attracts people who are fun to be around. Tracks that charge less have empty grandstands with nasty people wandering around. Charging a high price is how you keep the riff -raff out, and that's good for everyone else.

I'm a fan of keeping out riff raff, but plenty of non-cheap people won't pay 15 for the drink because its just a bad deal.

[Dark Horse]

I spent some time early this morning running Santa Anita and Belmont numbers for 2014.

A similar trend exists, although not quite as severe as that seen in the DMR vs. SAR comparison posted earlier.

HANDLE PER RACE ANALYSIS SAX 2014 vs. BEL 2014

COL-A COL-B COL-C COL-D COL- E
-----------------------------------------------------------
% RATIO TAKEOUT PCT
WAGER SAX 2014 BEL 2014 SAX/BEL SAX BEL
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
WPS 323,579.22 321,349.93 1.0069 15.43 16.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
EXA 189,577.57 237,549.86 0.7981 22.68 18.50
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
TRI 137,823.47 159,191.82 0.8658 23.68 24.00
------ ------------ ------------ ------- ----- -----
FLDSIZE 7.95 7.72 1.0298
-----------------------------------------------------------

Comments/Notes:

1. The above handle summary compares WPS, EXA, and TRI pools for Santa Anita (3 meets, 1158 races) against WPS, EXA, and TRI pools for Belmont (2 meets, 856 races) during calendar year 2014. All handle numbers are expressed as handle per race.

2. Column B lists average handle and field size per race for SAX 2014.

3. Column C lists average handle and field size per race for BEL 2014.

4. Column D lists SAX numbers expressed as a percentage of BEL numbers.

5. Column E lists a side by side comparison of takeout rates for SAX and BEL.

6. For WPS wagers, where both tracks have approximate level takeout rates, both tracks handled approximately the same amount. (With SAX handling 1.0069x more than BEL did.)

7. For EXA wagers there is a wide differential in takeout rates. Also, SAX at 7.95 had slightly bigger avg field size than BEL did at 7.72.

Yet Santa Anita exacta pools underperformed, handling just 79.81% as much as Belmont did.

If it isn't the takeout, what do you think is causing bettors to shun California's exacta pools?



-jp

.

Thanks Jeff. Much appreciated.

I have never considered these numbers, so would have to study them more before saying anything remotely insightful.

I note that the Trifecta takeout is slightly higher at Belmont than at Santa Anita, and still the NY betting public is wagering more on trifectas. So even if we call that takeout even, NY would seem to have a greater appetite for exotics.

But clearly the takeout factors in heavily for exactas. Where do you get these figures? I don't want to ask you to pull them up for other tracks, but have a few in mind that I would like to examine.

[Valuist]

So charging 15 bucks for a margarita might get the sport 'healthy' again?

I'm pretty sure I've explained to you that not wanting to get ripped off and being cheap are two different things and yet you keep spouting the same company line. Calling someone cheap is taking a shot at them, many people aren't made of money, those people would have no problem paying a fair price for the beverages, even at a healthy markup, but 15 is gouging and to call someone cheap because they don't want to be ripped off is pretty Assinine. You're a smart guy, but you're just not right on this issue, not everyone who doesn't want to pay 15 for a drink is cheap. Also, who just has one drink? How many people who went to opening day who had only one drink? I would imagine not too many.

You are 100% correct, although I guess one can (and probably should) abstain from drinking while gambling. But no doubt its gouging.

[burnsy]

Humor me. What casino in Las Vegas charges their players for drinks?


Not many and when I go to Turning Stone they are not free but its like 3 bucks...plus we usually get a room and a good meal for free. They don't give those to "cheap" people either. You gotta play to get the points.

If other tracks go by the model of Saratoga and Del Mar prices, they would be doing even worse then they are now. Sure, they don't have to compete for business from customers and they really never try to. That's why the casinos are full and popular......the tracks? Well, there's plenty of crickets chirping and a bum peeing in the corner........

This attitude has been prevalent for years, look how good its working........ :bang: . They are happy with what they get, until they can't fill the races or even meet their "guarantees" on plays. I guess they can afford to keep the "cheap" people out. Some of these people on here must work in the industry. No one competes for customers? Geez, That's news to me...Next time I go to Turning Stone I'll tell them to raise the price on drinks and food to keep rift raft like my cheap self out of the place. In fact, the management at Del Mar should inform these tracks that can't draw flies to raise their prices too.....its great for business...... :D

That's why horse racing has to go "seasonal" because its a seasonal cycle and even Del Mar and Saratoga could be doing better if they did try and compete. Selling 15 dollar drinks is fine, but offering a 3 dollar beer on the menu along with that would be better. Yup, they are doing so well they can afford to turn people away? :lol: Horse racing is getting some TV exposure this year. How long are they going to last without competing? If someone said this in front of network execs, they would be laughed out of the office..."Hey knuckle heads! We can get more sponsors selling Budweiser and Gillette razors on women's soccer.....you guys don't want the "cheap" people"....... :lol: "Your events and Breeders Cup does shit for ratings on air.....better not compete.".....Yup, that's what they'll say....... :D

This game and many running it...can't see the big picture my friends........not just who shows...or who they think they need or don't need......big picture,,,,,,,at this point you need them all fools! Your an Elks club event that thinks its the NFL for crying out loud. The NFL knows how to compete and charges what they want because of it....

[Robert Fischer]

This attitude has been prevalent for years, look how good its working.......

:D thanks Burnsy, 1st laugh of the day

[burnsy]

:D thanks Burnsy, 1st laugh of the day

Hey, even I realize I'm rough around the edges and harsh at times.....so I try to temper that with humor. But seriously, some of these people are out to lunch if they think horse racing is doing so well they can turn people off........and they are great at turning people away. Getting 40,000 is chump change these days. That's how they think though. Try getting people to like this game again and earn some real ratings on TV, that should be the goal......you'll never get there charging 15 bucks a drink on the track. They still think "small" ball.......and this shows in popularity......thousands doesn't cut it these days....you got to have millions of fans...or you will be his----stor.....ie!

[Tor Ekman]

Just curious: do any prominent tracks run "Ladies' Day" specials where the fillies get in free and maybe get half price drinks? Bring the gals out and men will follow, do it frequently enough and you just may create some new racing fans.

[thaskalos]

Call them "fillies"...and see how many of them you attract.

[Tor Ekman]

Be creative, call them fillies, offer additional perks to gals sporting "pony tails" pretty soon you may have a place to be on your hands . . . of course certain horseplayers may not be pleased with the presence of such people at the track, they'd rather consort with the ghosts of glory days past

[elhelmete]

Any casino that has a fancy bar, nightclub, or restaurant. You only get free drinks in the gaming areas.


Yeah, this romanticizing of Vegas is way over the top.

Why?

IIRC food and bev revenue outstripped gaming revenue in LV a few years ago. This despite claims that free F&B is the norm. Clearly it's not, and clearly people pay extra to get better quality and service than what they (average player) might get in comps. Sure I may like to tip a couple free beers playing blackjack but that's different than enjoying a cocktail in a beautiful setting.

Why can, say, the Excalibur co-exist right near the Encore? Aren't they taking the same rake of the gambling drones? Shouldn't they have essentially the same biz model and thus be more similar?

Why are rooms $30 at the LV Hilton but $300 at the Wynn?

The throngs of people in the new nightclubs and restaurants in LV...all comp'd?

Look, I only indulge in DMR a couple weekends a year, and maybe one day with my daughters. It IS expensive overall. But there are ways to do DMR...frugally...with some thought. Actually pretty easy.

I also appreciate, and in some ways prefer, a more modest racetrack providing it's at the bery least clean and has comfortable seating and viewing options, plus decent F&B.

I just won't agree that everything should be ratcheted down to the cheapest denominator, so that "we" can afford it. That has deep side effects.

[elhelmete]

Be creative, call them fillies, offer additional perks to gals sporting "pony tails" pretty soon you may have a place to be on your hands . . . of course certain horseplayers may not be pleased with the presence of such people at the track, they'd rather consort with the ghosts of glory days past

Funny, I think you actually did hit on the dichotomy of the racing fan...we bemoan the lack of crowds, but also enjoy the somewhat solitary nature of the experience.

[burnsy]

Look, it doesn't have to be totally cheap. But you have to be "mainstream" to get anywhere these days. Comparing it to the casinos is probably folly and a bad example on my part. But compared to other sporting events.....racing is somewhat of a laughing stock. My comparison to women's soccer is a good one. If the game was halfway popular again they could lower take out too. If the sport is not mainstream, nobody cares, nobody watches, the only money they make is handle, that's why the prices suck. Its time for them to "pretend" horse racing started yesterday and they need to build it up and promote it. Instead the attitude is an ostrich burying its head in the sand and hoping for the best. If that doesn't work raise the prices.....yeah, its a great plan and business model. Women's soccer got on the map in like 1999, now they are kicking the crap out of horse racing. People that run this thing, which is half the problem because nobody does, should consider that unacceptable. Instead we got this clown in NY raising everything, canceling family events and including admission on ticket master seats....to make it look profitable....so they can sell it. Then the state will cry when it goes down. Pure brilliance........If you want to make money when no one goes (on track) and they bet at home......you better get some TV money. If you want to be on TV you better be popular.......if you want to be popular you better cater to folks that drink Budweiser and use Gillette razors and Bounty paper towels. No keep the cheapskates and the rift raft out....that will go over really well......"Look how good we're doing, we got 40,000." Good for you, that and 3.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks...... :bang:

[AndyC]

Any casino that has a fancy bar, nightclub, or restaurant. You only get free drinks in the gaming areas.

At any rate, California law prohibits Del Mar from comping drinks anyway, so this is academic.

So to sum up your argument for "why Del Mar gets it", it would be because they ignore the players and try to alienate all customers other than those who are willing to pay whatever price posted. It is the sport of kings and kings don't quibble over such trivial matters as the takeout rate or the price of margaritas.

[AndyC]

....I just won't agree that everything should be ratcheted down to the cheapest denominator, so that "we" can afford it. That has deep side effects.


Has anybody suggested ratcheting down to the cheapest denominator? I just think people are questioning a business model that believes charging patrons a price unmatched or exceeded at any venue in San Diego is a good way to go.

Are people considered cheap if they don't want to bet an exacta because of the 22.68% takeout or is that just restricted to those unwilling to fork over $15 for a margarita or $11 for a beer?

[castaway01]

The Floyd Mayweather/Pacquaio fight is a perfect example of how you can charge virtually whatever you want when something is hot and people will pay it. It was a $100 pay per view, which was way above anything previously charged, and it did record business. Del Mar can charge ridiculous amounts for drinks because it is viewed as the place to be. In fact, the high prices are probably a sign of status in the area. I know this sounds crazy to those way out of the nightclub scene or looking to save every penny, but the fact is that it's not gouging if people line up to pay it. Someday maybe Del Mar won't be the place to be anymore, but for now it is and can charge those prices.

[elhelmete]

Has anybody suggested ratcheting down to the cheapest denominator? I just think people are questioning a business model that believes charging patrons a price unmatched or exceeded at any venue in San Diego is a good way to go.


If people believe this is true, there's nothing to discuss here.

SoCal is, for better or worse, a damn expensive place to play. There are plenty of non-$$$$ places to eat and drink, but nobody should feel justified in claiming that THEIR preferred place should be one of them just because.

[elhelmete]

The Floyd Mayweather/Pacquaio fight is a perfect example of how you can charge virtually whatever you want when something is hot and people will pay it. It was a $100 pay per view, which was way above anything previously charged, and it did record business. Del Mar can charge ridiculous amounts for drinks because it is viewed as the place to be. In fact, the high prices are probably a sign of status in the area. I know this sounds crazy to those way out of the nightclub scene or looking to save every penny, but the fact is that it's not gouging if people line up to pay it. Someday maybe Del Mar won't be the place to be anymore, but for now it is and can charge those prices.

Exactly.

Look, IMO, Vegas is wallet rape, 95% of major-market sports arenas are wallet rape, and you may as well throw theme parks and vacation resorts into the mix too. Why/how racetracks should exist in some separate universe is hard for me to understand. Not that I like it, though....this is being written by someone who likes to get a $5 egg salad sandwich and diet Coke at the Santa Anita snack bar as much as I like having lunch in the Frontrunner.

[ultracapper]

I was at Delmar in August 2013, and it was quite obvious a lot of the people there were there simply because it was Delmar. I doubt many of those people would have been caught dead at Hollywood Park, and wouldn't go to Santa Anita because they really weren't horseplayers. They were there because it was fun, and on that particular Saturday, Weezer was playing after the races were over. A lot of what Delmar was doing wasn't even to appeal to the horseracing crowd, it was to appeal to the party crowd.

Delmar is a prime example of what horseracing will have to evolve into if it is to survive. It's an event, it's fun, it's classy. I don't know if that justifies $15 drinks, but it does bring in the type of people that will pay $15 for a drink. And Delmar can not charge anything they want. If the price of a Margarita gets too high, they won't sell many. They're selling them for $15 because there's a line 10 deep to buy them.

[Grits]

Are people considered cheap if they don't want to bet an exacta because of the 22.68% takeout or is that just restricted to those unwilling to fork over $15 for a margarita or $11 for a beer?

I'm not sure...but isn't it nice to be able to surround oneself with beautiful people at places like Del Mar? Even the chick in the little black dress can pass, if one kept their eyes on her t!ts and didn't notice the ankle bracelet that's the convicted felon's dead giveaway.

Moving on. Just think how much more attractive breakfast is at Starbucks. Instead of with the spouse and family. Now, that's living LARGE. Scrolling one's phone, using the house WIFI because one's too cheap to have a Verizon closed plan.

Worst of all. What a shame that families ...who may not like, much less be able to afford, $15 drinks have destroyed flying for those who'd much prefer first class, if they had the means--you know like celebrities and Congressmen, etc. Isn't it pathetic that these families (children and military included) have the gall to want to take vacations or fly home for Christmas? They've ruined everything!

The cheap, and even those struggling who have to be cheap because they have no choice? I wish they'd stay the hell home and out of the way of those who so enjoy their status among the beautiful people.

One day, I hope I get to meet some beautiful people. But, I hope their nose isn't as far up in the air as Dilane's.

[elhelmete]

The cheap, and even those struggling who have to be cheap because they have no choice? I wish they'd stay the hell home and out of the way of those who so enjoy their status among the beautiful people.
.

WHy would these people be at a racetrack anyway, if they're struggling!? It's as "wrong" as a struggling person dropping big coin on playoff tickets.

There's plenty of ways to enjoy racing cheaply, some just requiring more creativity than others. The $15 cocktail issue is a red herring anyway. Its mere existence doesn't stop someone from paying GA and hanging out in the infield and enjoying the food trucks, or a picnic. They're watching and betting on the same horses.

[AndyC]

....SoCal is, for better or worse, a damn expensive place to play. There are plenty of non-$$$$ places to eat and drink, but nobody should feel justified in claiming that THEIR preferred place should be one of them just because.

The topic of this thread is "Del Mar gets it". My claim, as a player, is that Del Mar has done nothing for me. For someone seeking an event who attends 2 or 3 times a year, Del Mar does get it. They bring in concerts, beer festivals, etc. If they feel that catering to the event crowd is the best way to sustain their business and grow it in the future then they should continue full steam ahead.

I don't drink when I am at the track so I wouldn't be affected if they charged $100 a drink. But there are many who are affected. The number 1 comment I hear from non-horseplaying friends who go to the track is how expensive the drinks are. Not exactly a hardy endorsement for a return trip.

Any patron or consumer should feel completely justified in letting management know what they don't like about their experience.

[elhelmete]

The topic of this thread is "Del Mar gets it". My claim, as a player, is that Del Mar has done nothing for me. For someone seeking an event who attends 2 or 3 times a year, Del Mar does get it. They bring in concerts, beer festivals, etc. If they feel that catering to the event crowd is the best way to sustain their business and grow it in the future then they should continue full steam ahead.

I don't drink when I am at the track so I wouldn't be affected if they charged $100 a drink. But there are many who are affected. The number 1 comment I hear from non-horseplaying friends who go to the track is how expensive the drinks are. Not exactly a hardy endorsement for a return trip.

Any patron or consumer should feel completely justified in letting management know what they don't like about their experience.

This I totally understand.

[Grits]

WHy would these people be at a racetrack anyway, if they're struggling!? It's as "wrong" as a struggling person dropping big coin on playoff tickets.

There's plenty of ways to enjoy racing cheaply, some just requiring more creativity than others. The $15 cocktail issue is a red herring anyway. Its mere existence doesn't stop someone from paying GA and hanging out in the infield and enjoying the food trucks, or a picnic. They're watching and betting on the same horses.

Sure there's plenty of ways to enjoy racing cheaply, but not according to some.

Individuals at Saratoga are as excited over a $2 win bet in the backyard as they are over the $200 win bet in the clubhouse. Both places work nicely. There's room for everyone--this is my point.

As far as those struggling? People often move towards what is detrimental to them as opposed to limiting themselves only to what is good for them. Its the human condition.

I think AndyC really gets what Del Mar's about. Really GETS IT.

[elhelmete]

Sure there's plenty of ways to enjoy racing cheaply, but not according to some.

Individuals at Saratoga are as excited over a $2 win bet in the backyard as they are over the $200 win bet in the clubhouse. Both places work nicely. There's room for everyone--this is my point.

There's room for this at DMR too, some people just like to bitch and moan and focus on the negatives. And at Santa Anita (even more so). Frankly I think Los Al does a nice job with this too, but certain people like to crap on that place.

It's just not necessary to bemoan the existence of high $$ options because one is not able or willing to pay, but expect a high $$ level of service regardless.

HOW TO ENJOY DMR ON THE CHEAP, by ELHELMETE

1) AirBnB is your friend. I booked a weekend in a condo room walking distance to the track and Cedros AVe, with a patio overlooking the track and ocean for $100/night.

2) go to morning works for a couple hours and hob-nob with HOF trainers and jocks...free

3) post time is 2pm...eat lunch before you go.

4) if you're hungry, wander into the infield for a cheap(ish) snack and drink, you need some exercise walking anyway.

5) for dinner grab some takeout from one of dozens of places, a cold six of beer, and return to your patio and watch the sun set. or do it on one of SoCal's most beautiful beaches.

[Dark Horse]

Jeff, about my earlier request, I do have the HANA track ratings, but it doesn't include the detail you provided for WPS/Exacta/Trifecta amounts wagered.

[dilanesp]

I'm not sure...but isn't it nice to be able to surround oneself with beautiful people at places like Del Mar? Even the chick in the little black dress can pass, if one kept their eyes on her t!ts and didn't notice the ankle bracelet that's the convicted felon's dead giveaway.

Moving on. Just think how much more attractive breakfast is at Starbucks. Instead of with the spouse and family. Now, that's living LARGE. Scrolling one's phone, using the house WIFI because one's too cheap to have a Verizon closed plan.

Worst of all. What a shame that families ...who may not like, much less be able to afford, $15 drinks have destroyed flying for those who'd much prefer first class, if they had the means--you know like celebrities and Congressmen, etc. Isn't it pathetic that these families (children and military included) have the gall to want to take vacations or fly home for Christmas? They've ruined everything!

The cheap, and even those struggling who have to be cheap because they have no choice? I wish they'd stay the hell home and out of the way of those who so enjoy their status among the beautiful people.

One day, I hope I get to meet some beautiful people. But, I hope their nose isn't as far up in the air as Dilane's.

If you don't like being around upper class people, why would you want to go to Del Mar? Go to a different track, or a simulcast facility, or bet at home.

I don't go to the Kentucky Derby. It's not my scene. Del Mar may not be your scene. Why would you want to push beyond a velvet rope when you wouldn't want to be there anyway?

[AndyC]

If you don't like being around upper class people, why would you want to go to Del Mar? Go to a different track, or a simulcast facility, or bet at home.

I don't go to the Kentucky Derby. It's not my scene. Del Mar may not be your scene. Why would you want to push beyond a velvet rope when you wouldn't want to be there anyway?

Is there a certification process for being upper class or does it just need to be a figment of one's imagination? I think I heard that upper class people are smarter and even smell better than lower class people. I can only aspire to reach such heights.

[sammy the sage]

If you don't like being around upper class people, why would you want to go to Del Mar? Go to a different track, or a simulcast facility, or bet at home.

I don't go to the Kentucky Derby. It's not my scene. Del Mar may not be your scene. Why would you want to push beyond a velvet rope when you wouldn't want to be there anyway?

actually Grit's IS ONE of the beautiful people...(Grit's...on the inside...don't take it personal...just trying to make a point...follow the rest)....so "Dilansesp" or whatever...you don't under stand internet sarcasm... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :faint: :faint: :faint: :D :D :D

[Valuist]

Just curious: do any prominent tracks run "Ladies' Day" specials where the fillies get in free and maybe get half price drinks? Bring the gals out and men will follow, do it frequently enough and you just may create some new racing fans.

Arlington had it for a number of years. Not sure if they have it anymore, and one can probably say AP is no longer a "prominent track".

[Poindexter]

Since racing is not going to do what it needs to do in regards to takeout/rebates, than they have to work with what they have. No matter where you go whether your local teams game, Disney World, a county fair or local festival, or your corner movie theater you will get gouged. Has always been that way, will always be that way. Racing is not going to build big crowds by having $1.00 beers and if they do whoever they attract will be to drunk to contribute to the pools anyhow. Las Vegas gives you free drinks while gambling, because they want you drunk, because they want you to lose all your money to them. The more intoxicated you are the easier it is for them to win it. The racetrack isn't booking you directly, they are just getting a small piece of the pie.

Any business is going to try to attract people with more disposable income. If they have 15,000 in attendance, it may as well be 15,000 people who have no problem paying for parking and reserved seats or special party tables or multiple $15 drinks. It is just maximizing profits. Now, I have no idea what they do regarding perks, but certainly a person that is plowing through over $500 a day betting certainly should be eligible for periodic free drinks, or half off drinks and food or something. Whether they do this, I have no idea. Years ago, when I actualyy attended a race track, it was usually the turf club you went to if you wanted to be away from the "riff raff" and be in a little nicer place(people had to dress up in a tie........ Has this changed?

[dilanesp]

Since racing is not going to do what it needs to do in regards to takeout/rebates, than they have to work with what they have. No matter where you go whether your local teams game, Disney World, a county fair or local festival, or your corner movie theater you will get gouged. Has always been that way, will always be that way. Racing is not going to build big crowds by having $1.00 beers and if they do whoever they attract will be to drunk to contribute to the pools anyhow. Las Vegas gives you free drinks while gambling, because they want you drunk, because they want you to lose all your money to them. The more intoxicated you are the easier it is for them to win it. The racetrack isn't booking you directly, they are just getting a small piece of the pie.

Any business isis going to try to attract people with more disposable income. If they have 15,000 in attendance, it may as well be 15,000 people who have no problem paying for parking and reserved seats or special party tables or multiple $15 drinks. It is just maximizing profits. Now, I have no idea what they do regarding perks, but certainly a person that is plowing through over $500 a day betting certainly should be eligible for periodic free drinks, or half off drinks and food or something. Whether they do this, I have no idea. Years ago, when I actualyy attended a race track, it was usually the turf club you went to if you wanted to be away from the "riff raff" and be in a little nicer place(people had to dress up in a tie........ Has this changed?

It hasn't.

What has changed is that it became possible for Del Mar to attract big crowds of upper class people who spend lots of money. This dtarted happening in the 1980's and is why they replaced their grandstand in 1991.

So Del Mar can charge lots of money even for patrons in the grandstand and not really pitch their product to the type of people who go to other racetracks. So that is what they do.

[AndyC]

On presumably the biggest racing day of the Del Mar summer meet they drew a whopping 20,000 fans. Could it be that people are getting weary of paying inflated prices for food and beverage? Or could it be that people preferred to stay at home and watch the early rounds of the Little League World Series?

[ultracapper]

No matter what card Del Mar puts up, opening day is always the biggest day of the Del Mar meet. Welcome to the spectacle.

[AndyC]

No matter what card Del Mar puts up, opening day is always the biggest day of the Del Mar meet. Welcome to the spectacle.

Every Saturday leading up to the Pacific Classic except July 18 had a higher attendance than yesterday. To steal a page from today's societal protesters I would say to Del Mar that "horseplayers matter".

[AndyC]

A real tough draw to the beach in Del Mar in the summer time. A better comparison would be to see how they do in November.

It appears Del Mar needs to reconsider their cater to the rich policy because it ain't working anymore.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/sep/05/del-mar-cool-fans-study/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/nov/13/del-mar-plans-kick-for-home-in-fall-meet/

[Poindexter]

It appears Del Mar needs to reconsider their cater to the rich policy because it ain't working anymore.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/sep/05/del-mar-cool-fans-study/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/nov/13/del-mar-plans-kick-for-home-in-fall-meet/

You know what that means. Rainbow 6 coming soon. One of these lifetimes the decision makers will realize there is only one solution. Of course by that time the sport will be dead and buried and nothing will work. Meanwhile they may want to convince California to follow New York's lead and go after fantasy sports. If you don't want to compete with your competition, just eliminate it.

[Stillriledup]

Exchange wagering would create a lot of interest in del mars product.

[Poindexter]

Exchange wagering would create a lot of interest in del mars product.

I would love to see exchange betting probably more than most. That being said, I don't see it ever happening. But for Del Mar to solve it's current situation, lack of attendance and on track handle, why not couple a players card with perks(food, drink, free parking, admission.....depending on how much the player bets) and with a 6% rebate on all on track wagers. Build on track horse players from your local community and not rely on vacationers from everywhere like they do in the summer. At this point very little to lose and very much to gain.

[dilanesp]

It appears Del Mar needs to reconsider their cater to the rich policy because it ain't working anymore.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/sep/05/del-mar-cool-fans-study/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/nov/13/del-mar-plans-kick-for-home-in-fall-meet/

I actually expected them to have problems last year at the fall meet. But somehow they did really well.

But the reality is the economics of November and December racing in Southern California are terrible. (In general, we should consolidate with Northern California and have one circuit. But horsemen would hate that. At least, however, there's no good reason to race in November and December.)

[AndyC]

I actually expected them to have problems last year at the fall meet. But somehow they did really well.

But the reality is the economics of November and December racing in Southern California are terrible. (In general, we should consolidate with Northern California and have one circuit. But horsemen would hate that. At least, however, there's no good reason to race in November and December.)

Is it really the economics of November racing that is hurting Del Mar this year after a poor summer meet?

Would you agree that your statement may have been a bit premature in light of the last 5 months of racing?

"It turns out they really do know what they are doing down at Del Mar."

[ReplayRandall]

Is it really the economics of November racing that is hurting Del Mar this year after a poor summer meet?

Would you agree that your statement may have been a bit premature in light of the last 5 months of racing?

"It turns out they really do know what they are doing down at Del Mar."

Let me interject this info, not only is SoCal horse racing down, significantly down are all poker-rooms as well......Expendable income/economy on shaky ground, not only in SoCal, but across the country at this time.

[dilanesp]

Is it really the economics of November racing that is hurting Del Mar this year after a poor summer meet?

Would you agree that your statement may have been a bit premature in light of the last 5 months of racing?

"It turns out they really do know what they are doing down at Del Mar."

They didn't have a "poor" summer meet. The average attendance at Del Mar's summer meet this year was higher than 95 percent of the tracks in America. They were below expectations.

Their fall meeting is doing the way I expected last year's would do, i.e., bad. I may have been premature in concluding they know what they are doing in the fall based on one meet.

[AndyC]

They didn't have a "poor" summer meet. The average attendance at Del Mar's summer meet this year was higher than 95 percent of the tracks in America. They were below expectations.

Their fall meeting is doing the way I expected last year's would do, i.e., bad. I may have been premature in concluding they know what they are doing in the fall based on one meet.

You can't put lipstick on this pig. How many of the 95% of the tracks that Del Mar exceeded in attendance are located in an upscale area right on the ocean? How many of them run as many Grade 1 races as Del Mar does?

Wouldn't you expect that Del Mar would at least keep pace with Saratoga? They were up 9.6% in attendance and 13.5% in handle.

The "success" of Del Mar has little to do with their keen management skills and more to do with their location and timing of their summer meet.

[TJDave]

The "success" of Del Mar has little to do with their keen management skills and more to do with their location and timing of their summer meet.

Considering San Diego as a year round tourist destination I would have thought the fall meet to be a winner. I didn't think it through. Tourists aren't horseplayers.

[dilanesp]

You can't put lipstick on this pig. How many of the 95% of the tracks that Del Mar exceeded in attendance are located in an upscale area right on the ocean? How many of them run as many Grade 1 races as Del Mar does?

Wouldn't you expect that Del Mar would at least keep pace with Saratoga? They were up 9.6% in attendance and 13.5% in handle.

The "success" of Del Mar has little to do with their keen management skills and more to do with their location and timing of their summer meet.

Andy, before the current management took over Del Mar, they used to have tiny attendance. They were the weak sister of the Southern California circuit.

It's not automatic. They have done a better job.

[Stillriledup]

Andy, before the current management took over Del Mar, they used to have tiny attendance. They were the weak sister of the Southern California circuit.

It's not automatic. They have done a better job.

But isn't that more a condemnation of the previous administration? Should we compliment the current brass just because the previous brass did a subpar job?

[ReplayRandall]

The downward trend at Del Mar rests solely on the shoulders of Joe Harper. He's responsible for the continuous rising prices that have fleeced those that have attended Del Mar for the last 15 years. Those days are OVER, and so is Joe Harper.....He'll "unexpectedly" retire soon with whatever BS excuse he wants to use to save face. Buh-bye Joe, you gouged everyone long enough.

[AndyC]

Andy, before the current management took over Del Mar, they used to have tiny attendance. They were the weak sister of the Southern California circuit.

It's not automatic. They have done a better job.

The current management has been in place for a long time. I attended Del Mar in person EVERYDAY from 1973 to 2002. I don't recall tiny attendance. They were definitely considered the weak sister of So Cal racing from a racing perspective.

[dilanesp]

The current management has been in place for a long time. I attended Del Mar in person EVERYDAY from 1973 to 2002. I don't recall tiny attendance. They were definitely considered the weak sister of So Cal racing from a racing perspective.

When i started going, in the mid-1980's, they averaged 8,000 and their all time attendance record was 24,000. That old grandstand was very small.

[dilanesp]

The downward trend at Del Mar rests solely on the shoulders of Joe Harper. He's responsible for the continuous rising prices that have fleeced those that have attended Del Mar for the last 15 years. Those days are OVER, and so is Joe Harper.....He'll "unexpectedly" retire soon with whatever BS excuse he wants to use to save face. Buh-bye Joe, you gouged everyone long enough.

Those rising prices have made the track a lot of money.

[AndyC]

Those rising prices have made the track a lot of money.

Arguably those same high prices have also chased away a lot of customers. With the big gains at Saratoga it would seem logical that Del Mar would follow suit, but they didn't. To hear management explain their problems, it all stemmed from 2 days of rain.

So now we have the fall meet and all of the $12 margarita horseplayers have found greener pastures. A tougher environment, no doubt, but if they really "get it" the local high school football games wouldn't be getting more fans attending than they get.

[Tom]

How much are the margaritas at the football games?

[dilanesp]

Arguably those same high prices have also chased away a lot of customers. With the big gains at Saratoga it would seem logical that Del Mar would follow suit, but they didn't. To hear management explain their problems, it all stemmed from 2 days of rain.

So now we have the fall meet and all of the $12 margarita horseplayers have found greener pastures. A tougher environment, no doubt, but if they really "get it" the local high school football games wouldn't be getting more fans attending than they get.

Bear in mind, total revenue = revenue per customer x attendance. It isn't necessarily the case that if they cut prices they will make more money-- demand has to be sufficiently elastic that they money they lose from the price cuts will be less than the money they gain from the additional attendance.

I suspect that overall, Del Mar makes a lot more money in the summer by charging more than they would by charging less.

But the fall meeting is a loser. If the horsemen want that meeting so badly, they should take up a collection and pay Del Mar's losses.

[AndyC]

Bear in mind, total revenue = revenue per customer x attendance. It isn't necessarily the case that if they cut prices they will make more money-- demand has to be sufficiently elastic that they money they lose from the price cuts will be less than the money they gain from the additional attendance.

I suspect that overall, Del Mar makes a lot more money in the summer by charging more than they would by charging less.

But the fall meeting is a loser. If the horsemen want that meeting so badly, they should take up a collection and pay Del Mar's losses.

From a short term perspective the strategy may have worked. Worked being defined as maximizing revenues. Long term it may not be a winner based on the summer attendance and also the current attendance. Attendance may not be the end-all in measuring a busines's success but it sure can be an omen of things to come.

[dilanesp]

From a short term perspective the strategy may have worked. Worked being defined as maximizing revenues. Long term it may not be a winner based on the summer attendance and also the current attendance. Attendance may not be the end-all in measuring a busines's success but it sure can be an omen of things to come.

It could be. Just because something has worked in the past doesn't mean it will work in the future.

But it's notable that NYRA uses a similar model at Saratoga-- higher prices and a "resort" atmosphere-- and it has been similarly successful.

One interesting variable in all this, by the way, is that Del Mar switched back to dirt this year. I don't think the 20-somethings in the sundresses drinking margaritas care, but is it possible the racing / betting product isn't as good? I realizes that violates the ideological conviction of half of this board that Polytrack is evil, but this is something that at least has to be considered.

[Stillriledup]

It could be. Just because something has worked in the past doesn't mean it will work in the future.

But it's notable that NYRA uses a similar model at Saratoga-- higher prices and a "resort" atmosphere-- and it has been similarly successful.

One interesting variable in all this, by the way, is that Del Mar switched back to dirt this year. I don't think the 20-somethings in the sundresses drinking margaritas care, but is it possible the racing / betting product isn't as good? I realizes that violates the ideological conviction of half of this board that Polytrack is evil, but this is something that at least has to be considered.

Many bettors stopped betting when they went to plastic, you aren't going to get those 'dirt bettors' back overnight, it's a process.

[NorCalGreg]

Many bettors stopped betting when they went to plastic, you aren't going to get those 'dirt bettors' back overnight, it's a process.

There's gotta be a huge DIRT VS ALL WEATHER thread here somewhere. I'll find it one day, and rain holy hell on those that--instead of adjusting to modern conditions....would just rather stay in the last century because that's the way their daddy did it.
This is for another thread, so I'll leave it alone.

But you dirtsters have a sloppy (sealed) day :)

-NCG☮

[Stillriledup]

There's gotta be a huge DIRT VS ALL WEATHER thread here somewhere. I'll find it one day, and rain holy hell on those that--instead of adjusting to modern conditions....would just rather stay in the last century because that's the way their daddy did it.
This is for another thread, so I'll leave it alone.

But you dirtsters have a sloppy (sealed) day :)

-NCG☮

It's a good discussion, I have plenty of thoughts on the subject. ;)

[dilanesp]

There's gotta be a huge DIRT VS ALL WEATHER thread here somewhere. I'll find it one day, and rain holy hell on those that--instead of adjusting to modern conditions....would just rather stay in the last century because that's the way their daddy did it.
This is for another thread, so I'll leave it alone.

But you dirtsters have a sloppy (sealed) day :)

-NCG☮

Eventually, there will be some sort of polytrack that is enough like dirt, but safer and faster, that most tracks will switch to it.

Why do I know this? For the same reason so much football (and a fair amount of baseball) is now played on artificial turf and almost all track and field is now conducted on artificial surfaces.

What happens is the early tries are too "artificial" and impact the sport too much. But eventually they come up with something like FieldTurf or Mondo and the traditionalists just fade away.

[NorCalGreg]

Eventually, there will be some sort of polytrack that is enough like dirt, but safer and faster, that most tracks will switch to it.

Why do I know this? For the same reason so much football (and a fair amount of baseball) is now played on artificial turf and almost all track and field is now conducted on artificial surfaces.

What happens is the early tries are too "artificial" and impact the sport too much. But eventually they come up with something like FieldTurf or Mondo and the traditionalists just fade away.

I know I said I'd leave this alone.....but--I agree, dilan. Robert Goran has something in his "signature" about the future, and horseracing, shopping centers, or something--but the future is POLY-TURF. And yes, the "purists" will all be long-gone by then.

[biggestal99]

Many bettors stopped betting when they went to plastic, you aren't going to get those 'dirt bettors' back overnight, it's a process.

The only people who stopped betting the races on synthetics are people who were not very good handicappers to begin with.

Most handicappers i know are flexible enough to handicap anywhere, anytime.

I have a friend who is a horseplayer from england, we go to the breeders cup every year.

The first bc, (2002 at arlington) he didn,t have a clue, but by the next year at Santa anita he knew the nuances of dirt racing. He put a lot of effort that year into handicapping dirt races in the us and by the time the 2003 bc rolled around, he was telling stuff.

Allan

[AndyC]

Many bettors stopped betting when they went to plastic, you aren't going to get those 'dirt bettors' back overnight, it's a process.

Seeing how Santa Anita went back to dirt several years ago why wouldn't the dirt bettors be back overnight?

[Stillriledup]

Seeing how Santa Anita went back to dirt several years ago why wouldn't the dirt bettors be back overnight?

Because if you quit a track or circuit, you might have moved on to a different circuit. People aren't going to keep switching tracks because the so cal higher ups have another 'whim'.

[AndyC]

Because if you quit a track or circuit, you might have moved on to a different circuit. People aren't going to keep switching tracks because the so cal higher ups have another 'whim'.

Isn't Santa Anita on the same circuit as Del Mar. Are you suggesting that even though bettors came back for SA that they would somehow shun the change at DMR? There is no evidence to back up a reduction in handle due to a surface switch.

[Stillriledup]

Isn't Santa Anita on the same circuit as Del Mar. Are you suggesting that even though bettors came back for SA that they would somehow shun the change at DMR? There is no evidence to back up a reduction in handle due to a surface switch.

My comments are to the people who are not understanding why the bettors didnt come flocking back once dirt was reinstalled.

[AndyC]

My comments are to the people who are not understanding why the bettors didnt come flocking back once dirt was reinstalled.

I guess I'm not understanding either. Given that bettors took to the SA dirt why didn't they come back for DMR?

[NorCalGreg]

The only people who stopped betting the races on synthetics are people who were not very good handicappers to begin with.

Well said, Allen. Their excuse..."ohhhh....I only bet real dirt!" is just lame. The fact of the matter is, they left because they simply ran out of money!
How many bankrolls can the average man/woman throw away until reality sets in? We arent being replaced by younger, more wealthy bettors--they're playing the stock market, fantasy games, video games---anything but this maddening sport that doesn't seem to even want us around, at times. Whining about the obvious future isn't the answer.

They say in the infantry: ..........lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.

Do what's left of us horseplayers a favor, and choose one of the above