5 tracks that should be shut down

[chenoa]

Interested to get peoples thoughts on 5 tracks that have no right to still be operating and in business.

[Kash$]

Interested to get peoples thoughts on 5 tracks that have no right to still be operating and in business.


Penn National
Louisana Downs
Charlestown
PID
Parx

[garyscpa]

Penn National
Louisana Downs
Charlestown
PID
Parx

Reasoning?

[Donttellmeshowme]

Penn
Ellis
Presque Isle
Calder
Retama

[lamboguy]

i think they should open up about 20 new ones.

[zico20]

Penn National
Parx
PID
Ellis
All the Ohio tracks

[ManU918]

Santa Anita
Gulfstream
Golden Gate
Pimlico
Laurel

For obvious reasons.

[Stillriledup]

Penn National
Parx
PID
Ellis
All the Ohio tracks

You're leaving Delaware open Z man?

[horses4courses]

Santa Anita
Gulfstream
Golden Gate
Pimlico
Laurel

For obvious reasons.

Santa Anita is one of the best tracks in the nation.
Shutting it down would be a ridiculously bad decision.
Especially after the closing of Hollywood Park.

[EMD4ME]

None we need more. Without a live racing experience, NO NEW fans will be born in those areas.

I'd like to see a second t-bred track run Sun, Mon and Tue nights. I like Mountaineer, nothing against them but I get bored sometimes in the winter and they're not around to cure the boredom.

[ManU918]

Santa Anita is one of the best tracks in the nation.
Shutting it down would be a ridiculously bad decision.
Especially after the closing of Hollywood Park.

To each their own. Personally I'm not a fan of the Stronach Group.

[horses4courses]

To each their own. Personally I'm not a fan of the Stronach Group.

You may not like him, but the sport would be a lot worse off without him.
Who else invests the type of money he does in horse racing?

I have a much harder time liking anything to do with CDI.

[ManU918]

You may not like him, but the sport would be a lot worse off without him.
Who else invests the type of money he does in horse racing?

I have a much harder time liking anything to do with CDI.

I would shut down them tracks as well.

[Stillriledup]

Santa Anita is one of the best tracks in the nation.
Shutting it down would be a ridiculously bad decision.
Especially after the closing of Hollywood Park.

Hes not shutting down SA he's shutting down F.S.

[RacingFan1992]

Get rid of Gulfstream and Calder. Open up Tropical Park and Hialeah. Bring back some of the old classic races like the Flamingo and Tropical Park Derby.

[zico20]

You're leaving Delaware open Z man?

I like Delaware. They run Arabian races which very few tracks do.

[Rex Phinney]

To each their own. Personally I'm not a fan of the Stronach Group.

How do you feel about Stronach Groups management vs the company that bought Bay Meadows and Hollywood Park?

They have sunk more money into Santa Anita than any other track in the last 5 years. I'd bet it's double the next highest on track investment

[ManU918]

How do you feel about Stronach Groups management vs the company that bought Bay Meadows and Hollywood Park?

They have sunk more money into Santa Anita than any other track in the last 5 years. I'd bet it's double the next highest on track investment

If they care that much about the game they wouldn't go into contract disputes that keep the players from wagering. I missed 95% of the Gulfstream meet this year because of that bullshit. **** them.

[djm1959]

penn national for sure
calder or whatever its called
presque isle-- fake surface and bad announcer
golden gate
retama home of the 10c trifecta


also any track the john dooley announces-- i cringe when hes on

[elhelmete]

If they care that much about the game they wouldn't go into contract disputes that keep the players from wagering. I missed 95% of the Gulfstream meet this year because of that bullshit. **** them.


Plenty of blame to go around in that unfortunate dispute, including a number of racetracks that should be on the "five to close" list.

[NorCalGreg]

Everyone around here....and I mean EVERONE, wishes they had closed GGF and found a way to keep BM open. GGF is smack dab in the epicenter of some of the worse traffic in Northern Cal, all day long.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If they care that much about the game they wouldn't go into contract disputes that keep the players from wagering. I missed 95% of the Gulfstream meet this year because of that bullshit. **** them.

Weren't they trying to re-price their signal? And the midatlantic cartel would not go along with it or was that a different entity opposing the midatlantic cartel?

[Dave Schwartz]

How do you feel about Stronach Groups management vs the company that bought Bay Meadows and Hollywood Park?

They have sunk more money into Santa Anita than any other track in the last 5 years. I'd bet it's double the next highest on track investment


:ThmbUp:

Seriously!

Although I do not like any of the Big Players in the Track Monopoly game, we certainly need those race tracks. Sure would be nice if a couple of us here on PA could chip in and buy a couple of them.

[therussmeister]

Penn National
Parx
PID
Ellis
All the Ohio tracks
I find Thistledowns to be a surprisingly good track to bet.

[thespaah]

i think they should open up about 20 new ones.
Ruh roh....Here comes the poop storm...
LOL.....

[thespaah]

I think what will occur over time is many tracks will close themselves down....Most recent. Suffolk.
Attrition is inevitable.
Going back to the 70's, how many tracks have closed or lost Thoroughbred racing.
I can think of a few....
Hialeah, Bowie, Meadowlands*, Calder*, Beulah, Suffolk, Birmingham, Colonial,
Rockingham, Hollywood, Bay Meadows, Garden State, Atlantic City.
How many are just hanging on?.....
Mountaineer, Turfway, Ellis Park, Arlington, Penn Nat'l, Parx, Great Lakes Downs.
How many have opened?....
Lone Star, Sam Houston, Retama, Canturbury, Indiana Grand, PID .Those three ONLY because Texas approved PM Wagering.
Tennessee pass a PM bill several years ago and not a single investor has attempted to build a track in the state.
The point is more tracks are closing than new ones opening.

[JustRalph]

I could name 25 that should close. But, it wouldn't matter which ones.

Close 25 and the rest woud be a lot better off, no matter who or where

[Stillriledup]

penn national for sure
calder or whatever its called
presque isle-- fake surface and bad announcer
golden gate
retama home of the "evil" 10c trifecta


also any track the john dooley announces-- i cringe when hes on

Ftfy :D

[Some_One]

Any track that relies on casino subsidies should be shutdown.

[Dahoss2002]

I could name 25 that should close. But, it wouldn't matter which ones.

Close 25 and the rest woud be a lot better off, no matter who or where
:ThmbUp:
FACT!!

[therussmeister]

I think what will occur over time is many tracks will close themselves down....Most recent. Suffolk.
Attrition is inevitable.
Going back to the 70's, how many tracks have closed or lost Thoroughbred racing.
I can think of a few....
Hialeah, Bowie, Meadowlands*, Calder*, Beulah, Suffolk, Birmingham, Colonial,
Rockingham, Hollywood, Bay Meadows, Garden State, Atlantic City.
How many are just hanging on?.....
Mountaineer, Turfway, Ellis Park, Arlington, Penn Nat'l, Parx, Great Lakes Downs.
How many have opened?....
Lone Star, Sam Houston, Retama, Canturbury, Indiana Grand, PID, Birmingham, Prairie Meadows, Colonial, Hoosier Park, Woodlands .Those three ONLY because Texas approved PM Wagering.
Tennessee pass a PM bill several years ago and not a single investor has attempted to build a track in the state.
The point is more tracks are closing than new ones opening.

.

[Robert Goren]

Any track that relies on casino subsidies should be shutdown.Certainly any track that has had them for 10 years or more. These places over time becomes jokes. Unless they some manage to get a whale or two interested, their handles dry up and the grandstands are empty. What little interest there is in the racing going on there is limited to ADW bettors. Even simulcast bettors have abandoned them. They live for one big day of racing hoping to attract a horse who ran in the Derby or Breeders Cup race. If the state removed the clause that the casino run a race meet, these tracks would close within a week. We all know who these tracks are and most of us would not bet counterfeit money there. The only people betting money at those tracks are problem gamblers which is why they run Mondays and Tuesdays and at night when there is no other action.

[Fager Fan]

To each their own. Personally I'm not a fan of the Stronach Group.

Not exactly good reasoning.

[BlueChip@DRF]

Churchill
Pimlico
Belmont
Santa Anita
Keeneland

:p

[djm1959]

Churchill
Pimlico
Belmont
Santa Anita
Keeneland

:p
yea thats it'''

have the derby at finger lakes
the preakness at philly park

and the new belmont at delta downs - 5 turn mile and half race


there off in the delta stakes at delta downs,,,,,,

[Kash$]

Add Aqueduct to my list

[therussmeister]

Shut down any track whose average daily purse is more than 24% of average daily handle.

[TravisVOX]

We should never want tracks to close, which is a bad thing. Instead, the debate should focus on the amount of racing across the board.

One example: Louisiana Downs has a place, but making them run 80+ days per year is insanity.

[Tom]

have the derby at finger lakes

Have you got the recipe for a Mint Julep? :p

[EMD4ME]

We should never want tracks to close, which is a bad thing. Instead, the debate should focus on the amount of racing across the board.

One example: Louisiana Downs has a place, but making them run 80+ days per year is insanity.

Travis, do you think 80 plus is too much or too little?

Didn't they change the requirement down to something like 30-45 days a year?

[castaway01]

Not exactly good reasoning.

Well, if you know anything of the last 15 years of racing, Stronach was a rather controversial figure for how he purchased and then mismanaged tracks in his quest for slot machines and "modernization". Since you're a Fager Fan and he hasn't run in five decades, you're obviously not a new racing fan---I'm sure you're familiar with the anger Stronach guy used to create. Now he's pretty much a relic.

As far as closing tracks, I don't vote for businesses to close. The number of races is declining each year due to lack of horses to run in them, so I'd say the market is managing itself already.

[TravisVOX]

Travis, do you think 80 plus is too much or too little?

Didn't they change the requirement down to something like 30-45 days a year?

No, they're still required to run 80+ days for thoroughbreds and 40+ for Quarter Horses. The exact #'s I can't remember.

[djm1959]

finger lakes julep =genesee cream ale in a dark glasss

[HuggingTheRail]

Shut down any track whose average daily purse is more than 24% of average daily handle.

I was thinking along the same lines, but wasn't sure what the percentage should be....

[Lemon Drop Husker]

I know many on here laugh at the small Racinos and drive-by tracks across the country, but coming from a state with absolutely little to nothing, I actually appreciate those venues.

With only Fonner Park, Horseman's Park (for 3 days a year), and Columbus as racing outlets in Nebraska, it is one of the worst states for horse racing in the entire country, if not THE worst that actually host live thoroughbred racing events. (If you actually want to call it horse racing. It is sadly pathetic.)

Those should be at the top of the chopping block for anybody across the country except for my selfish self that would off myself if we didn't have simulcasting all of 3 minutes from my home. :D

As for my 5?

Parx
Golden Gate
Mahoning Valley
Retama Park
Aqueduct (for the simple fact I can't win at that damn track....,ever. My black cat of race tracks in the entire country, but they run some really nice races at that joint, so I willfully contribute some of my cash to all your coffers. You're welcome. :))

[Fager Fan]

Well, if you know anything of the last 15 years of racing, Stronach was a rather controversial figure for how he purchased and then mismanaged tracks in his quest for slot machines and "modernization". Since you're a Fager Fan and he hasn't run in five decades, you're obviously not a new racing fan---I'm sure you're familiar with the anger Stronach guy used to create. Now he's pretty much a relic.

As far as closing tracks, I don't vote for businesses to close. The number of races is declining each year due to lack of horses to run in them, so I'd say the market is managing itself already.

I never much cared what others thought. I never saw that he did anything all that bad, and at least he put money in the game and tried new things to bring in fans. I can appreciate an attempt at something good even if it's not a direction I would've gone. He also isn't a sell out like Churchill Downs, and he's a good farm and horse owner, taking good care of his horses including the retirees.

Even if I had an axe to grind against Stronach, I'd hope for new ownership of those tracks, not for their shut down. Santa Anita is glorious, and what better track do we have in Florida?

[BlueChip@DRF]

For those who want Aqueduct to close, just wait until the track is muddy and then box all those whose last race was on turf. :p

[ultracapper]

I think in the long run, Stronach has been very good for the game. I don't know if he changed his ways, or ways changed around him, or if he just evolved, but I feel like his contributions right now are almost indispensible. I was a hater 15-20 years ago also, and though I'm in no love fest with him, I believe he has been making a positive impact for some time. He definitely could be a major player in nationalizing horse racing if serious movement were ever made in that direction.

[dilanesp]

Los Al thoroughbred

Either Belmont or Aqueduct, but not both

Emerald

Gulfstream West

Hawthorne

[therussmeister]

Los Al thoroughbred

Either Belmont or Aqueduct, but not both

Emerald

Gulfstream West

Hawthorne
Gulfstream West allows turf racing in Florida year round.

[dilanesp]

Gulfstream West allows turf racing in Florida year round.

i don't think there should be year round racing in south Florida.

[EMD4ME]

Los Al thoroughbred

Either Belmont or Aqueduct, but not both

Emerald

Gulfstream West

Hawthorne

I agree that south Florida maybe shouldn't race year round.

Why do you think Bel or Aqu should close?

Why do you think Emerald should close?

Los Al too?

Just curious what your logic is.

[dilanesp]

I agree that south Florida maybe shouldn't race year round.

Why do you think Bel or Aqu should close?

Why do you think Emerald should close?

Los Al too?

Just curious what your logic is.

Los Al generates tiny fields and no interest, and is conducted over a bastardized track.

New York could save money by consolidating, same way closing BHP was efficient here.

Emerald just doesn't make any money. I love the Longacres Mile, but racing up there has been losing money since forever.

Hawthorne is similar to NY and California - Arlington is the nicer track and racing should consolidate there.

[appistappis]

finger lakes julep =genesee cream ale in a dark glasss


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[forced89]

Hawthorne is similar to NY and California - Arlington is the nicer track and racing should consolidate there.

Agree. But make sure to keep Fairmount open in Southern Illinois. A casino has an option to buy Fairmount if slots are approved and with the state of finances in Illinois and a new Governor they will be. Three reasons. First, it will keep cheaper horses away from Arlington. Second, it will allow the breeding industry in Illinois to survive. Third, is its location a hop, skip and jump from St Louis.

[EMD4ME]

Los Al generates tiny fields and no interest, and is conducted over a bastardized track.

New York could save money by consolidating, same way closing BHP was efficient here.

Emerald just doesn't make any money. I love the Longacres Mile, but racing up there has been losing money since forever.

Hawthorne is similar to NY and California - Arlington is the nicer track and racing should consolidate there.

I hear your logic.

LA had higher field sizes this year, I think 1 more per race. I'd give that place a shot as with Hollywood closing, CA needs some variety. Can't race at SA almost year round.

I think it would be sad and pathetic if a NY market can't handle operating 3 tracks year round. Call me a sucker but I love all 3 NYRA tracks. Aqueduct has it's appeal, Belmont has it's appeal and of course the SPA has it's appeal.

From what NYRA reports, without casino subsidies they do cover the cost off all 3 tracks. I hope that can stay that way as I love Aqueduct racing.

Is Emerald really losing money? They get subsidies from the tribe, their purses aren't that high and they only race 3 days a week for 5 1/2 months.

I would think they do well enough to cover purses and costs. Admissions are high, they sell a lot of food/beer (as I'm told, I have not been there) and they do have year round simulcasting.

I can't speak for Hawthorne. All I know is, I hate to see a former BIG track close. Very bad for business.

Why can't all these tracks do what Canterbury is doing? They are drawing crowds. Who cares if they only bet $2 a race right now. Half of them will stick and half of those will wager $20-$30 a race one day.

[dilanesp]

I hear your logic.

LA had higher field sizes this year, I think 1 more per race. I'd give that place a shot as with Hollywood closing, CA needs some variety. Can't race at SA almost year round.

I think it would be sad and pathetic if a NY market can't handle operating 3 tracks year round. Call me a sucker but I love all 3 NYRA tracks. Aqueduct has it's appeal, Belmont has it's appeal and of course the SPA has it's appeal.

From what NYRA reports, without casino subsidies they do cover the cost off all 3 tracks. I hope that can stay that way as I love Aqueduct racing.

Is Emerald really losing money? They get subsidies from the tribe, their purses aren't that high and they only race 3 days a week for 5 1/2 months.

I would think they do well enough to cover purses and costs. Admissions are high, they sell a lot of food/beer (as I'm told, I have not been there) and they do have year round simulcasting.

I can't speak for Hawthorne. All I know is, I hate to see a former BIG track close. Very bad for business.

Why can't all these tracks do what Canterbury is doing? They are drawing crowds. Who cares if they only bet $2 a race right now. Half of them will stick and half of those will wager $20-$30 a race one day.

The scuttlebutt i hear is that Los Al's daytime thoroughbred operation is bleeding money and may not even be on the calendar next year.

As for the rest, I will make a general observation:

There are fewer horses, and fewer racing fans. That means fewer tracks are going to be open. This can mean one of two things:

1. Tracks on a given circuit close, with operations consolidating at other tracks. This saves lots of money as the fixed costs of any facility have to be amortized against the amount of racing there. It's simply cheaper to run all Los Angeles racing at Santa Anita rather than having racing at Betfair Hollywood Park, for instance. It's cheaper to maintain one grandstand, one track, one training track, one set of barns, one parking lot, etc., rather than two.

2. A track representing the entirety of a racing circuit closes, on the ground that it isn't making money.

Your post, in the end, argues that tracks shouldn't close because you wouldn't like them to. But the realities of the sport is we need FAR fewer racetracks. And by the way, this isn't SOLELY due to loss of fan support. It's also because it's the inexorable logic of simulcasting. A lot of tracks only survived even in the golden age because they had an effective monopoly-- you went to your local track and that was all you could bet, except maybe on Derby day or something.

But now, you can go to Sunland Park and bet Santa Anita and Aqueduct and Gulfstream. And that makes the local product at Sunland a lot less attractive.

The INEXORABLE result of simulcasting is that horse racing centers around a handful of "supertracks" that produce racing that the whole country bets on, along with a few successful boutique meets like Oaklawn. Do you see why?

[cj]

I could probably list 25 at the blink of an eye, but I'll start with these since I am nearly positive they wouldn't exist at all without slots subsidies. I think those places are a breeding ground for bad behavior and they also cater to horsemen and write races that are largely unbettable.

Prx
Pen
PID
CT
Del

[Stillriledup]

I could probably list 25 at the blink of an eye, but I'll start with these since I am nearly positive they wouldn't exist at all without slots subsidies. I think those places are a breeding ground for bad behavior and they also cater to horsemen and write races that are largely unbettable.

Prx
Pen
PID
CT
Del

Great post. Ill add that because these places are largely focused on gaming, they don't want bad publicity battling cheaters in court, so they just turn a blind eye to it. Same thing w Pocono harness track, minuscule pools and the training colony is a who's who of persona non gratas at other places.

[no breathalyzer]

I could probably list 25 at the blink of an eye, but I'll start with these since I am nearly positive they wouldn't exist at all without slots subsidies. I think those places are a breeding ground for bad behavior and they also cater to horsemen and write races that are largely unbettable.

Prx
Pen
PID
CT
Del


all those tracks i do well at.. wounder why that is :D

[Show Me the Wire]

Hawthorne is similar to NY and California - Arlington is the nicer track and racing should consolidate there

Only if you want the horses to die from freezing. AP's barns are not constructed for the harsh winters and CD is not going to invest in that type of capital investment.

AP should close.

[dilanesp]

Only if you want the horses to die from freezing. AP's barns are not constructed for the harsh winters and CD is not going to invest in that type of capital investment.

AP should close.

Well, that's the New York problem too. Aqueduct, as it stands now, is a much nicer facility for the winter, but Belmont is nicer overall.

Still, I'm sure a substantial amount of money could be saved long term by either making Belmont more suitable for winter racing or gussying up Aqueduct to its former late 1950's glory, and operating one track rather than two.

[tanner12oz]

Parx
Penn national
fort erie
finger lakes
calder

[Stillriledup]

Parx
Penn national
fort erie
FINGER LAKES
calder

:eek:

You're going to put Tom out of business!!

[EMD4ME]

If FL closed, where would the ever present NY breds who can't compete go?

[Kash$]

I could probably list 25 at the blink of an eye, but I'll start with these since I am nearly positive they wouldn't exist at all without slots subsidies. I think those places are a breeding ground for bad behavior and they also cater to horsemen and write races that are largely unbettable.

Prx
Pen
PID
CT
Del

places are a breeding ground for bad behavior

Priceless

[proximity]

before half the population of grantville gets mad at me, let me state for the record that i DO NOT think penn national should close. i'd just like to see them make some kind of effort to approach their potential as both a track and racino.

i won't hold my breath.

we should talk about presque isle though as its conception and birth actually fit right in with some of the stuff michael gill is saying, particularly about things going all the way to the top and former governor ed rendell.

but i know he's crazy.... right??

[Shemp Howard]

If Penn National and Presque Isle closed would anyone notice?

[proximity]

If Penn National and Presque Isle closed would anyone notice?

i'd reckon your posting rate would take a rather precipitous dive, but i imagine our favorite dandelion would eventually sprout in another yard. :D

[nearco]

Any track that relies on casino subsidies should be shutdown.

Hear, hear. :ThmbUp:

[nearco]

Only if you want the horses to die from freezing. AP's barns are not constructed for the harsh winters and CD is not going to invest in that type of capital investment.

AP should close.

Why would you race horses in Chicago in the winter?

AP is one of the nicest tracks in the country.

[rastajenk]

i think they should open up about 20 new ones.
I vote with lambo. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

I vote with lambo. :ThmbUp:

I agree and here's how I would solve the horse shortage in fantasyland...

Some rich owner will take every available dam and have a few good sires just enjoy some paradise time for a couple of weeks.

Have 50,000 horses born in 2016 and 2017. Give the horses away, just give em away for training and racing.

Supply will be there. Fields will be super high. More tracks will need to open.

Problem solved ;) :D :D :D

[forced89]

before half the population of grantville gets mad at me, let me state for the record thatI DO NOT think penn national should close. i'd just like to see them make some kind of effort to approach their potential as both a track and racino.

Agree, sort of. Close during December, January and February. Run the rest of the year.

[lamboguy]

its not really that far fetched. racing needs a few adjustments to put itself back on the map.

easier said that done though

[Donttellmeshowme]

Agree, sort of. Close during December, January and February. Run the rest of the year.




I dont know how the winter tracks up north do it. When it gets to 40 degrees down here we go into hibernation. Closing January and February i think would help.

[Donttellmeshowme]

i'd reckon your posting rate would take a rather precipitous dive, but i imagine our favorite dandelion would eventually sprout in another yard. :D




Always talked about going to Tampa.

[PIC6SIX]

From the subsequent replies almost all of the tracks should be shut down? If one does not like a track there is no one holding a gun to your head and making you bet. There is always tomorrow.

[zico20]

Any track that relies on casino subsidies should be shutdown.

So what you are saying is that you want to see harness racing basically eliminated. :ThmbDown: You know some of us like watching and betting on the trotters.

[djm1959]

i love aqueduct, went to belmont and big A as kid with my dad in 60s

the 747s flying over ,, nothing like that........the smell of the urine still is the same as i recalled as a kid when i was there in 2014....i do miss the 15 min lines to wager and the same to collect at a seperate window.....the casino is lousy for a newer one with lines for fast food 50 deep ,,,ahhh dont close !!!

now if eddie maple , jorge v and angel cordero would be there that would be the best!!

[Redbullsnation]

None. If anything, we need more

[Redboard]

i don't think there should be year round racing in south Florida.

5000 people move to Florida every week. Many of them AARP members. that, along with a number of Hispanics, are two demographics that like horse racing.

I doubt we will see a week without horse racing in South Florida anytime soon.

[thespaah]

.
Some of the ones on your list that opened have already closed or have lost Thoroughbred racing.

[thespaah]

:eek:

You're going to put Tom out of business!!
Closing FL would have detrimental affects on the NY Breeding Program

[thespaah]

If Penn National and Presque Isle closed would anyone notice?
Yeah.....Because( I think) Pennsylvania statute requires a racetrack to
conduct a live extended PM Meeting to maintain a casino operating license.
Pennsylvania state govt will not allow gaming venues to close.

[EMD4ME]

Yeah.....Because( I think) Pennsylvania statute requires a racetrack to
conduct a live extended PM Meeting to maintain a casino operating license.
Pennsylvania state govt will not allow gaming venues to close.

Any chance they vote that tracks are not required (change the law)to have a racino and just close the tracks?

[EMD4ME]

Far away from now but when NYRA's 25 year contract of VLT revenue is up, I could see the state shutting down horse racing in NY. (Amending the law that tracks are not needed to have VLTs)

Giving up the deeds to the state was pure horse poo poo. Takes away all power.

[Dark Horse]

It's such a biased question.

Horse players seriously discussing which tracks should be shut down. :D

I would open a track to replace Hollywood. In the area between the 101 and the PCH through Malibu.